I feel like I should address some posts. I was pretty critical of the way way handled the last suspects, but I think many of these posts are oozing with ignorance and are ironically contributing to the reasoning why it's not a public vote. I'll address floon some other time after exams.
Zebraiken: I think you have a point about the wording of the post. I think your question will be answered after I bitch out my friend Kingler12345. And to answer your followup, I think that any suspect should be retested even if it's not banned only if there is a significant metagame shift (a pokemon gets banned, new sets discovered/usable, incredibly drastic change in usage stats).
Sorry if it sounds like I snapped, but that needed to be said.
Onto the actual substance of the post.
I debated this with Hawk for a while on discord and I think it can be summarized like this.
Firstly, we have been play testing with Diglett and Gothita for, what, a month and a half? People are acting like you can only start analyzing a Pokemon when a suspect test starts. That's a fucking idiotic sentiment. We have our opinions on Gothita and Diglett formed already. Drifloon being added into the mix will influence it one way or the other. If you're concerned about Drifloon's influence, then don't be. It's obvious enough for us to separate it from Drifloon. I honestly think this reason is what all of the criticism stems from.
Second, if we were influenced by Drifloon, so what? It was being dropped anyway. What's wrong with measuring trappers testing in a multitude of metagames? If it's consistently a problem, we have our culprit.
Third, even if you have a weird bias against that testing method, if we thought Diglett/Gothita were not broken before, and Drifloon comes down and all of the sudden they are broken, it's easy to isolate why they're broken because, again, we've been using them for a month and a half. At worst, we've been using them without Cutiefly for a few weeks but I don't think that influenced our experience either.
Fourth, some of us actually wanted the test together because we were unsure of Diglett in particular and we think Drifloon would make it more obvious if Diglett is the problem (yes, this is purely theoretical basis, but that's what it's the fourth point on my list). In my personal opinion, dropping Drifloon adds more clarity. It isn't muddling anything. I still have my knowledge of Diglett in a floon-less metagame.
In this generation, Dark-types got a huge buff by not being stopped by Cottonee if they have Speed boosting moves because they are immune to Prankster. Furthermore, Fletchling is nerfed immensely such that keeping hazards or weather up means it's not doing anything. Both of these conditions make it not only encouraged to run Fighting-types (not being countered by Fletchling) but almost required since Pawniard, Scraggy, and Carvahna are such powerhouses this generation. Gothita has without a doubt made the biggest influence in removing these Pokemon. Furthermore, it's ability to be customized has been much easier to be noticed this generation because of the bias towards physical defense (Mudbray) and Staryu has become the most impactful spinner because of it's ability to actually beat spin blockers with some prediction. Both of which give Gothita a huge advantage over Diglett, who cannot trap a weakened (and by definition, boosted) Mudbray or a reasonably healthy Staryu. Furthermore, Gothita can actually switch into these threats, unlike Diglett.
This has made Gothita more powerful than Diglett, but, there have been lots of new reasons why Diglett has to be looked at again. Firstly, Bird Spam is still here, so we like removing Rock-types. Second, Poison-types are everywhere. Gothita can't stop Pokemon like Pawniard already, but new influences like Grimer-A and the influx of the viability of Sun makes Vulpix more common. Furthermore, Fire-types are hard to stop for many offensive teams. Diglett will generally give you an easy kill, and play on. Plus, since gen 6, it's most reliable counter was banned this generation. All of these generational mechanics changes have justified the testing of the trapping Pokemon, for the first time this generation.
Zebraiken: I think you have a point about the wording of the post. I think your question will be answered after I bitch out my friend Kingler12345. And to answer your followup, I think that any suspect should be retested even if it's not banned only if there is a significant metagame shift (a pokemon gets banned, new sets discovered/usable, incredibly drastic change in usage stats).
Before I start with the substance of the post, I want to address the bolded part. Conspiracy theorist council top secret agenda? I am baffled at the idea that we have an "agenda" or you're unsure of our "intentions". Like, how do we personally benefit from this? When I was a mod I would usually favour talking to the user over infracting anyone but posts like this would probably make me question that policy. Badged users should not be making baseless accusations like this. It takes away from your credibility.I really don't like voting on all three of these suspects at the same time... I'm not gonna make any assumptions with regards to the intentions of the council because that feels unfair to do, but still, a suspect like trappers should definitely be its own suspect and be given the sufficient amount of time. feels like we're kinda being lazy with the suspect process when this is arguably one of the most important and controversial suspects this generation
Sorry if it sounds like I snapped, but that needed to be said.
Onto the actual substance of the post.
I debated this with Hawk for a while on discord and I think it can be summarized like this.
Firstly, we have been play testing with Diglett and Gothita for, what, a month and a half? People are acting like you can only start analyzing a Pokemon when a suspect test starts. That's a fucking idiotic sentiment. We have our opinions on Gothita and Diglett formed already. Drifloon being added into the mix will influence it one way or the other. If you're concerned about Drifloon's influence, then don't be. It's obvious enough for us to separate it from Drifloon. I honestly think this reason is what all of the criticism stems from.
Second, if we were influenced by Drifloon, so what? It was being dropped anyway. What's wrong with measuring trappers testing in a multitude of metagames? If it's consistently a problem, we have our culprit.
Third, even if you have a weird bias against that testing method, if we thought Diglett/Gothita were not broken before, and Drifloon comes down and all of the sudden they are broken, it's easy to isolate why they're broken because, again, we've been using them for a month and a half. At worst, we've been using them without Cutiefly for a few weeks but I don't think that influenced our experience either.
Fourth, some of us actually wanted the test together because we were unsure of Diglett in particular and we think Drifloon would make it more obvious if Diglett is the problem (yes, this is purely theoretical basis, but that's what it's the fourth point on my list). In my personal opinion, dropping Drifloon adds more clarity. It isn't muddling anything. I still have my knowledge of Diglett in a floon-less metagame.
Welcome to Smogon. Indeed, Diglett and Gothita were tested and not banned in the 6th Generation of Pokemon (I was among the people who voted not to ban, for the record). In the recent few months, there was a new generation released called Sun and Moon, making it now the 7th generation. It added various mechanics changes and new Pokemon. Much like how the mechanics transition from Generation 4 to 5 added Gligar to the banlist in exchange for Misdreavus because of the addition of many Dark-types and Flying-gem. Similar to how Drifloon's Recycle mechanics got it added to the banlist in generation 6 over generation 5. I don't believe you have a problem with those tests, do you?Not going to comment on this test because it is stupid and for all people complain about ss praising rocks, that will be nothing compared to lc council doing what would look to the public as overturning 2 public tests that went againt their beliefs. Council testing trappers is a bad idea and council testing all 3 together is a worse idea.
but anyways: Question to people who think Gothita is broken (Merritt mostly so far but thread is very early): now, I have very minimal lc experience though I enjoy the tier. from what I remember last gen I was under the impression Diglett was by far closer to being broken than Gothita. What has changed to make Gothita ridiculous this gen?
In this generation, Dark-types got a huge buff by not being stopped by Cottonee if they have Speed boosting moves because they are immune to Prankster. Furthermore, Fletchling is nerfed immensely such that keeping hazards or weather up means it's not doing anything. Both of these conditions make it not only encouraged to run Fighting-types (not being countered by Fletchling) but almost required since Pawniard, Scraggy, and Carvahna are such powerhouses this generation. Gothita has without a doubt made the biggest influence in removing these Pokemon. Furthermore, it's ability to be customized has been much easier to be noticed this generation because of the bias towards physical defense (Mudbray) and Staryu has become the most impactful spinner because of it's ability to actually beat spin blockers with some prediction. Both of which give Gothita a huge advantage over Diglett, who cannot trap a weakened (and by definition, boosted) Mudbray or a reasonably healthy Staryu. Furthermore, Gothita can actually switch into these threats, unlike Diglett.
This has made Gothita more powerful than Diglett, but, there have been lots of new reasons why Diglett has to be looked at again. Firstly, Bird Spam is still here, so we like removing Rock-types. Second, Poison-types are everywhere. Gothita can't stop Pokemon like Pawniard already, but new influences like Grimer-A and the influx of the viability of Sun makes Vulpix more common. Furthermore, Fire-types are hard to stop for many offensive teams. Diglett will generally give you an easy kill, and play on. Plus, since gen 6, it's most reliable counter was banned this generation. All of these generational mechanics changes have justified the testing of the trapping Pokemon, for the first time this generation.
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