GG Godly Gift

[Smallsmallrose]

I've been playing a lot of Godly Gift lately and had some thoughts about a couple pokemon.

I have never been so viscerally torn on a single pokemon as much as I am torn Iron Hands. I love Spdef sets with all my heart. So often does it feel like a ground type has to take the Spdef slot, usually something like Ting Lu or one of the Donphan paradoxes to take on pokemon like Miraidon and sometimes Eternatus. Iron Hands can pick up the slack to free you up to use other things, like offensive Ground types or being able to invest heavily in a ground type's Physical Defense without splitting your EVs. It can also handle H-Electrode and a massive slurry of other special attack inheritors. It can also take on Gods the grounds couldn't dream of like Palkia and even Kyogre depending on the generosity of it's spdef donation and/or it's tera type, which is absolutely relieving in the builder. On the other side of the coin...... Speed Iron Hands. Take the highest speed donation you can find, Get Quarked up, and take free games. Its too tall a task to revenge kill it with it already blitzing most scarfers off any particularly decent speed donation combined with it's bulk, but it's also very strong and can circumvent a lot of bulky checks with the right coverage, tera type, and even switching up it's item if it's getting the boost from Miraidon's Electric Terrain rather than it's own Booster Energy as a one-man band. It really feels like depending on which slot this pokemon is in, it's either a godsend or the devil incarnate. I would trade Booster Energy and Miraidon both to keep the perks of the spdef hands around in a heartbeat but I don't know how hot of a take that is.

Actually I lied, Iron Hands isn't the only pokemon I'm torn on. I also really like Hatterene. It can very often feel like an uphill battle to clear hazards, there's not that many good spinners outside of the ol reliable Donphan paradoxes, Maushold is frail and doesn't usually wear boots (And sometimes is such a menace that you'd rather save it for a sweep than sack it for some hazard control), and Defoggers that even touch an HP slot Gholdengo without tera or just being Giratina (a god with very hit or miss stat passes mind you) is basically a fever dream. This means any hazard setter that bullies the time traveling Elephants basically has open range over a game. This is why I like taking hazard preventative measures rather than going through the old cycle of letting them get set and clearing. Fast Taunts, sending in powerful choice mons early to scare off setters, and here we go, Magic Bounce. I'm absolutely intoxicated by Hatterene. About 80% of my teams use HP slot Hatterene purely for it's ability to prevent hazards. I often even team it up with removers mentioned above to consistently create a super safe board state to really let pokemon go to town without getting worn down. Sometimes I don't even use calm mind, I've tried the eject button healing wish one (Based on that one OU set) to constantly let in devastating, full health breakers to a hazardless field over the course of a long game. But unfortunately, Hatterene also has it's demons. I'll keep it quick and simple, the calm mind one just wins games. Its damn near unstoppable when it terastalizes, parrying counters and inheriting great defensive types with a ton of neutralities. Godly Gift has such a contrast between the bulkiest pokemon I've ever seen and the strongest pokemon I've ever seen and Hatterene walks over both things with just an HP boost and a few calm minds.

I could have talked about the pokemon I think are blatantly broken or unfun but I thought it would be interesting to bring up two pokemon that I simultaneously love AND hate to a degree I never really have in a tier before.

 

[Gulchittious Boi]

I’m not high on the ladder, but I have a funny half-of-a-team I wanna share: Groudon, Breloom, and Talonflame go together in a funny way and could be really good at shredding bulky or slow teams

Groudon

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Stone Edge
- Precipice Blades/Earthquake

Substitute helps avoid status and small damage from stall mons, attacks are here because, and t-wave is really important with Groudon as your god to deal with all of the fast fucks buzzing in your face like flies

Breloom

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Def
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Protect

Bulk up Breloom is a very funny Pokémon, and it gets even funnier with Groudon’s 140 defense; it’s not super great early game (unless your opponent’s entire team just can’t handle it), but if all your opponent has are physical attackers (that don’t have swords dance or super effective coverage), then you are absolutely GOLDEN

Talonflame

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tera Blast


Once this receives 150 attack from Groudon, it becomes absolutely terrifying. Gale Wings gives you some VERY solid priority, and I slapped an adamant nature on because big numbers are funny, but a jolly nature is likely better

 

[GW8]

So, what's exactly the counterplay to Kingambit with Miraidon's Speed?

 

[Notagamer]

So, what's exactly the counterplay to Kingambit with Miraidon's Speed?

the thing called the close tab button same as whatever defensive checks exist in ou really primarily being dozo and tusk. Edit: looks like I forgot the best counterplay which is getting itself banned.

 

[Best souls 2]

So, what's exactly the counterplay to Kingambit with Miraidon's Speed?

Speed Hands, any team with Zacian on it, the occational Zamazenta, our lord and saviour Conkeldurr, Physdef Clod.

 

[dhelmise]

a few things...



Kingambit has been banned (again) by a 5-1 vote!

Probably coming as a surprise to nobody, we voted on Kingambit (and Toxapex but that got a 1-5 DNB vote) because it became seriously oppressive simply by being put in the Speed slot. Supreme Overlord guarantees that Kingambit has unmatched revenge killing potential, and access to Sucker Punch means that faster foes aren't even safe.

Also, TPP has stepped down from council, and we have added lepton and TTTech ! Thanks TPP for your contributions and welcome the new members!

oh and ursaluna-b was put in ubers so we unbanned it

 

[Yam1]

Not sure if it was already asked but
What happens if the god stat is lower than the pokemon supposed to recieve said stat?

 

[UT]

Not sure if it was already asked but
What happens if the god stat is lower than the pokemon supposed to recieve said stat?

Then it will lower the stat of the receiver; while this is generally avoidable this generation, it was very relevant in past gens with Pheromosa and Deoxys, as they would pass awful defenses with the trade off of great offensive stats.

 

[abemaster5]

There's a few guys that need to be looked at imo.



I fr don't know why this guy came back, I think its just as, if not more broken then it ever was. Aside from being nearly unswitchinable, it has the perfect stat spread so everybody can eat good, it's so nasty on web teams, on balance teams, hyper offense, it's extremely versatile and only has like two checks. Even with gliscor returning, playing around Miraidon is vastly difficult since there's no true checks to it, and then the teammates it could enhance too (////) Makes it very problematic, it should have stayed in its den.




This guy is hilariously broken as well, not because of tail glow surprisingly, but take heart + acid armor + 135/145/150 Special attack stat is insane, it sometimes wins games just by coming out, the unaware mons don't beat it due to scald burn and stored power. Pex loses to it if you dare give it one free turn, unless you have very specific check manaphy can win games incredibly easily. It works best on web teams, which i've been using it on and had extreme success, but I believe it should no longer be in the tier,




How to win games, Step 1, add Miraidon, Step 2, Put Manaphy in the special attack spot, Step 3, Put Hoopa-U in speed spot, Step 4, Profit. Jokes aside hoopa-u just clicks buttons and gets a kill on anything, very broken especially with tera turning it into a super nuke, zacian and the paradox twins speed stat makes it tough to check constantly, unless you're a big fan of speed ties.




The goat herself, I adore using this mon with how much work it puts in but I can't lie im surprised it's stayed in for so long, in the Hp slot its unkillable, especially with defense investment. It also beats unaware mons with stored power and stays healthy with draining kiss. I've been using it with life dew to make it even more powerful, to make sure it won't get wore down easily and it works to great success. Turn into water type agaisnt Gholdengo and Zacian and suddenly it sets up on them even harder. Its a very powerful win-con and arguably does it better then Manaphy due to the better bulky and recovery.



Is an unhonerable mention, its pretty match up fishy and loses hard to stall, or any unaware mon infact. But i have a feeling zacian will get more and more problematic as time goes on and new pokemon are addedd, that speed stat is also no joke.


Thats my two cents though, stay safe out there.

 

[Cuddly]

There's a few guys that need to be looked at imo.



I fr don't know why this guy came back, I think its just as, if not more broken then it ever was. Aside from being nearly unswitchinable, it has the perfect stat spread so everybody can eat good, it's so nasty on web teams, on balance teams, hyper offense, it's extremely versatile and only has like two checks. Even with gliscor returning, playing around Miraidon is vastly difficult since there's no true checks to it, and then the teammates it could enhance too (////) Makes it very problematic, it should have stayed in its den.




This guy is hilariously broken as well, not because of tail glow surprisingly, but take heart + acid armor + 135/145/150 Special attack stat is insane, it sometimes wins games just by coming out, the unaware mons don't beat it due to scald burn and stored power. Pex loses to it if you dare give it one free turn, unless you have very specific check manaphy can win games incredibly easily. It works best on web teams, which i've been using it on and had extreme success, but I believe it should no longer be in the tier,




How to win games, Step 1, add Miraidon, Step 2, Put Manaphy in the special attack spot, Step 3, Put Hoopa-U in speed spot, Step 4, Profit. Jokes aside hoopa-u just clicks buttons and gets a kill on anything, very broken especially with tera turning it into a super nuke, zacian and the paradox twins speed stat makes it tough to check constantly, unless you're a big fan of speed ties.




The goat herself, I adore using this mon with how much work it puts in but I can't lie im surprised it's stayed in for so long, in the Hp slot its unkillable, especially with defense investment. It also beats unaware mons with stored power and stays healthy with draining kiss. I've been using it with life dew to make it even more powerful, to make sure it won't get wore down easily and it works to great success. Turn into water type agaisnt Gholdengo and Zacian and suddenly it sets up on them even harder. Its a very powerful win-con and arguably does it better then Manaphy due to the better bulky and recovery.



Is an unhonerable mention, its pretty match up fishy and loses hard to stall, or any unaware mon infact. But i have a feeling zacian will get more and more problematic as time goes on and new pokemon are addedd, that speed stat is also no joke.


Thats my two cents though, stay safe out there.

Honestly Hoopa-U should just be an autoban in metagames like this where it fixes either its defense or speed. It’s one of those “borderline” Pokemon that with one fix could easily become broken. Like here where it becomes Chien-Pao with a better defensive profile, or Calyrex-I with better speed.
Like you can often lead off with Hoopa-U against slower team and auto win because there is no defensive counterplay. You often can get multiple free KOs using Hoopa.
I also pair it with , who gets to use Electric Terrain for Unburden, being able to deal nicely with all those faster teams and can dent Sticky Web teams.

 

[Gulchittious Boi]

There's a few guys that need to be looked at imo.



I fr don't know why this guy came back, I think its just as, if not more broken then it ever was. Aside from being nearly unswitchinable, it has the perfect stat spread so everybody can eat good, it's so nasty on web teams, on balance teams, hyper offense, it's extremely versatile and only has like two checks. Even with gliscor returning, playing around Miraidon is vastly difficult since there's no true checks to it, and then the teammates it could enhance too (////) Makes it very problematic, it should have stayed in its den.

I have a massive vendetta against Miraidon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene in Electric Terrain: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc is with a hatterene that got donated 100 base hp, and with an assault vest. Granted, the miraidon has specs, but it evens out with the assault vest. This calc is absurd, and I cannot be convinced otherwise

The only real reason hatterene is still on my team is an immunity to miraidon Draco meteor (alongside ground types already on the team). Even that doesn’t work very well, especially against non-choiced Miraidon. Maybe I just don’t know the counterplay to him, and I’m no expert but… like…

• Since Choice Specs Miraidon has no reliable check in the metagame, it works excellently as a wallbreaker for the vast majority of teams.

That is a quote from the Smogon analysis for this mon, and I think it sums up all the problems with this thing. It’s super strong, has “no reliable checks”, and works with a bunch of different teams: it’s really centralizing. Not only does it donate super solid offensive stats, but it also just mows down anything and everything itself. Even if it couldn’t 1v1 every mon on the enemy team, Miraidon can just… switch out.

I’m probably not the best person for this decision, but I would definitely be alright with miraidon being banned

Edit: looking back through this forum, I might’ve missed something, but I have no clue why Miraidon was unbanned; I’m not sure who was calling for that

 

[Greybaum]

i got bored so i spent roughly 5(?) minutes building a stall team earlier today () and climbed to top 10 on ladder during downtime at work.

decided to make a post because toxapex is still toxapex after dlc and it's silly how many offensive pokemon toxapex entirely shuts down. pikachu sucks, but there was a game earlier today where i'd already won so i decided to stay in on a light ball boosted 120 attack pikachu clicking volt tackle to see what would happen and this was the result:

The opposing Pikachu used Volt Tackle!
It's super effective!
(Toxapex lost 88.5% of its health!)
The opposing Pikachu was damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Pikachu fainted!
Toxapex used Infestation!

and like, this is without tera. there are a handful of things that can switch into the standard infestation/toxic/haze/recover pex (garganacl, non-choiced ditto, your own pex, clefable, gliscor, weezing-galar) but pex, clef and gliscor are the only splashable mons in that list and your own pex is the only one that can't be trapped and broken down by the rarer av acid spray pex. hatt is NOT an answer; more often than not i found i was switching toxapex directly into it to chip away at PP because of how easily pex can shrug off +1 super effective hits, especially if they didnt run speed creep and were permanently at +0. on this specific team pex/corv is enough to break down hatt (with emergency dondozo to force it out if needed) but i have no doubt you could just account for hatt in others ways, e.g. heatran - because pex's residual damage has become enough of a wincon that everything else on your team can be there solely to support it's bad matchups.
the other, less direct forms of counterplay - substitute or tera lures - is unreliable because none of them can switch directly in and most of them are still subsceptible to the usual "switch in click haze switch out repeat" cycles if properly supported - turns out cm enam does 65ish% with a +2 earth power against a pex with no spdef investment, for example. the best counterplay to pex seems to be exploiting bad/rushed building to force it to tera, at which point it becomes far more subsceptible to poison, but that's incredibly matchup reliant. an example of this is my team having no miraidon softcheck thereby forcing pex to tera early on.

i also changed my mind on miraidon. not just because it destroys this team if properly supported but mostly because electro drift is too strong when supported with ice terablast. a 4 attacks boots set feels pretty optimal rn compared to the specs breakers that get farmed by protect cores. im excited for both of these mons to be banned so we can finally return to the time honoured godly gift tradition of banning every single bulky, strong breaker gamefreak gives 30 base speed to.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Shoutout to this hazard lead 5 guys HO team that got me past 1400 on the ladder

I've had enough of these bikes, In all the GG I've played since gen 8, they're the most ridiculous gods I've ever seen. Not only are they insane offensively in their own right with their speed and power, but they're the best team players of any god. Usually gods are offensive monsters, or maybe provide a team's hazard setting or control on occasion. These on the other hand each have enough switch ins to count on half a finger WHILE setting conditions that gives each of their paradox receivers an extra stat boost, often just downright stat checking opposing teams that aren't bike/paradox spam themselves. Miraidon is probably the crazier of the two since it's the reason for the obligatory spdef slot ground/occassional iron hands (Which don't even get you completely out of hot water since Miraidon is a cat and mouse master if it's boots or can probably brute force you the 2nd or 3rd time it comes in with tera if it's specs) and the Electric Terrain it sets has less rivals than Koraidon's sun but that isn't to say Koraidon isn't terrifying. Tera fire does so much for it on it's own, letting Koraidon dodge burns and casually overcome a theoretical bad matchup in Zacian and other Fairies. The Scale Shot one in particular is kind of cracked and won me half my games, Koraidon didn't need a way to boost it's speed or the ability to use a strong dragon STAB while switching moves. And I somehow went over all of this before bringing up they have amazing speed slots For turbo breakers or giving a paradox receiver free 607 speed.
Also, about

I'm gonna be real. I completely underestimated it and never realized how bulky this damn thing is until I saw it eat a +2 Hoopa-U Psyshock with a Zacian's HP donation (Mind you, it didn't eat it WELL, but ate it when most neutral targets can't, and on an HP donation that didn't even break base 100) And after playing around with it some more I realize just how much this limits offense. I once considered Toxapex a "Do nothing" mon moreso than it's ever been with the lack of Knock Off and Scald, but it makes it work with its infestation sets to trap and 1v1 threats. And with any particularly massive HP donation such as Giratina, it can become so insanely bulky that it can sometimes just win the game by simply being unable to lose. The only pokemon I've ever seen remotely threaten it when it's this bulky are Hoopa-U and Miraidon (So, the mons that kill everything and two mons that have been proposed for the banlist themselves at that, here's hoping Pex goes with them.) and even then, it can cater it's tera types to the few things that threaten it.

The last mon on my personal list of what feels maybe a smidge too good. This pokemon just brute forces everything with any attack slot higher than it's own. Population Bomb's power is insane, and it feels like very few things are reliable at taking this on. Rocky Helmet is ok, but if the pokemon isn't a regenerator (For example, I've seen a lot of rocky helmet Tusk) then it's still going to sacrifice most of it's HP just to make Maushold KO itself, and that isn't even getting into the ways it circumvents this nonsense (Tera Normal to KO pokemon in less hits to maybe avoid a Rocky Helmet self-KO or force it to be a trade, Moves like Bullet Seed and Beat Up that can beat common rocky helmet holders while not making contact, a swathe of tera types with potential tera blast.) not to mention that you have to play a certain way around it. You cannot switch a rocky helmet mon into something it normally checks if there's any risk of Knock Off, as losing your helmet can lose you the game against Maushold. And forget about resistances, this can bully almost all of them (Wanna see Maus casually KO two steel types in a row?) especially if it gets an attack stat of 130 or higher, you need an immunity and one bulky enough to take bite/beat up at that. It can be out-offensed by faster pokemon like the bikes, but its still incredibly fast for a pokemon that so effortlessly KOs pokemon it outspeeds, 111 is nothing to scoff at when it's one tapping everything up to 110, not to mention it's hazard removing dragon dance.

 

[dhelmise]

Miraidon has been banned! Toxapex dodges a ban once again!​

​	Kris​	lepton​	Lily​	longhiep341​	Senko​	TTTech​	Result​
Miraidon​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	BAN (6-0)​
Toxapex​	Ban​	Ban​	DNB​	DNB​	DNB​	DNB​	DNB (2-4)​

Another council member will be posting with reasoning soon, I just wanted to get this slate posted before the next GG seasonal round went up.

 

[Osake]

lepton Lily TTTech longhiep341 Senko can you provide some serious reasons to leave pex unbanned when this thing has nothing healthy, kills the metagame, and many players complained about it ? Like fr I can’t even see 1 valid reason to keep that in the tier and you guys are never posting (well lepton and tttech are new, even though they have 0 post in the thread but yeah)

idk if the reasoning will only concern Miraidon like with Kingambit’s ban or if we’ll finally have some thoughts of this council on why they keep toxapex unbanned but man we need answers tyvm

 

[dhelmise]

Apologies everyone, lepton actually voted ban for Toxapex, I got the vote wrong in my post.

 

[Railroader17]

So is anyone gonna post the reasonings or.....

Like, how is Pex healthy in a meta where it can get base 150 HP, while also having the Def and SpDef it has, and REGENERATOR!?!

Is it because it can clear T-Spikes? Because we have plenty of other poison types who can do that, especially with the Teal Mask DLC being out. Is it because it's Defensive? Because yeah it does that job far too well. And now that one of the few reliable counters to it in Miraidon is gone Pex should have been shown the door with it.

Seriously why is thing being allowed to stick around?

 

[Smallsmallrose]

I had this whole post ready about how this guy honestly feels hit-or-miss in the speed slot because you can't use it with anything slower than the bikes with the inability to boost it's speed (And scarf starts to feel a little too weak for the really bulky teams you'd want Hoopa to erase) and even then there was serious speed slot competition from paradoxes not to mention even if it was in Zacian's speed slot you'd still get outrun by those same mons as well as never being able to be faster than Dragapult, H-Trode, and Zacian-C (Who in particular can also pivot around your STABS and a decent chunk of your coverage) with any decent god's speed donation and I was going to make this big post about how insane speedcreep has gotten since the mass unban but honestly this might be fine now that the meta is at mach 4 rather than mach 5, especially since this is the last really good Pex killer in the tier. He's probably a little better off now with Miraidon gone, we'll have to see.

Speaking of, you're still here, and without Miraidon forcing you to use tera ground or switch out. Lovely. I'm gonna assume this dodged the bullet because GG seasonal is still going on and banning defensive oppressors is a lot more risky than banning offensive ones during a big tournament. Anyway, this is going to monopolize the HP slot while it's still here.

Honestly, this might be the best god in the tier now. Not having to worry about as many games coming down to bike speed ties, having better overall passes than Zacian (A little slower and a little less specially bulky, but better HP pass and MUCH better attack pass) in addition to Protosynthesis users being able to feed off those passes and then some. This also usually beats Zacian with tera. And the Scale Shot one didn't magically get any less scary with Miraidon's ban. This is the god to beat whether you're running it yourself or not.

While Miraidon gone means you can't have quark and an item anymore, both booster based abilities still feel like they're gonna be insanely strong in the speed slot. Its the only way gods like Eternatus and Arceus can even have a speed slot that even touches immensely fast Zacian or Koraidon teams, and lets those teams basically have the fastest thing in the tier on switch in. Its one of the big reasons things like Turbo Hoopa don't feel as scary as they should be.

 

[longhiep341]

Ok I planned to make a post anyway so I'm gonna talk about how DLC changed the meta and stuffs.
Pokemon that people find pressing:

I don't find this problematic just yet. It's not easy to actually find chances to set up in Belly Drum's case and that's if opponent doesn't have an answer to it, and Miraidon's departure definitely affects its power a lot. You can also argue Booster Energy pushes it over the edge but I don't see any other Pokemon use it so it will be all about this. If it proves to be restricting after some meta changes then it will go if proven to be too restricting.


It provides good Speed control and definitely still very strong but there are good enough defensive answers that I find this not broken, at least not yet.


Mixed attacking potentials seem very threatening on paper, but it feels inconsistent at times, prediction reliant and also is quite annoyed by Dark-types, especially Ting-Lu. Being weak to U-turn and low Def make it prone to both defensive answers and revenge killing as well unless Tera'd so not out of line but under watchlist for sure. Tera Fairy Tera Blast NP is probably the most threatening for defensive mons but still easy to revenge kill with any Scarfer due to low Def.


Well a lot of people want this gone and this is the most controversial Pokemon currently so I will spend a lot more effort on this. Toxapex is definitely a polarizing wall, with Water/Poison being a great type and HP Pex being able to take on just about any hit. However, I don't really find it actually broken to the point where it should be banned. Its passivity means that it usually has to stay in after taking the hit unless you make a risky double switch, unlike Alomomola that can immediately regain momentum with Flip Turn. It can still deal a bit of damage, however since Haze and Recover are mandatory it has to choose between Infestation, Toxic/Poison Jab and Water move. Forgoing Infestation means Steel sits on it for free, no Toxic/Poison Jab means many wallbreakers will have more longevity in general, no Water move makes it more vulnerable to Taunt. And even when you consider all 3, there are still enough good answers imo such as:
Some Pokemon that can brute force through Toxapex and force it to Tera, making it less effective: Electrode-H, Band Great Tusk, Hoopa-U, Zapdos, Arceus-Ground, Groudon, more niche mons like Armarouge.
Pokemon that can stay on it for an extended amount of time, forcing it to waste Recover's PP + possibly providing support: Gliscor, Clefable, Glowking, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Leftovers Iron Treads (If no Water move)
Pokemon that while not being able to 1v1 it directly, can force chip damage and win long term: Hamurott, Will-O-Wisp + Hex Dragapult,
Other methods to beat it: trapping moves (like Heatran, Block Garganacl), Trick/Switcheroo, Taunt Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Ogerpon and Enamorus, hazard stack, Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G.
You may not agree with me on this, but I think Toxapex is kinda like a necessary evil to keep all the offensive Pokemon in check while having enough weaknesses that it's not really broken.


I feel like this one is more egregious when it comes to denying progress. The addition of Flip Turn and Scald really pushed this over the edge imo. I already used Alomomola quite a lot pre-DLC and it's now not only an extremely good sponge, but the fact that Flip Turn is pretty risk free that forces teams to fit a Water immunity to prevent it from freely doing things. Many methods used to deal with Toxapex can't be used against Alomomola: Even while having a choice item it's still an annoying pivot with the possibility of burning your switch-in, Taunt doesn't prevent Flip Turn, and in general it's hard to regain momentum meaning it will find another chance to just switch out and regain HP. It's compounded by the fact that it can be used in tandem with Toxapex to create a nigh unbreakable core since both really only share a weakness and one can easily Tera to quickly make both wall teams to an unhealthy amount. Its fat Wish also enables offensive threats that are vulnerable to chip damage way too easily, allowing them to break teams multiple times. In my opinion, this is the thing that I'm keen on to vote ban and Pex alone wouldn't be enough. Pex would still be a powerful defensive option but not nearly as much and forces more sacrifices as opposed to this.

Scale Shot is a big buff to this already strong Pokemon. However it's kinda drowned in a meta where it kinda struggles to actually do what it does in Ubers and I haven't really seen the Scale Shot actually just sweep. I definitely think it will end up too much eventually but there isn't much to support it being broken except theory when it mostly runs choice on most teams.

Other Pokemon I think are being overlooked but have a place in the meta:

Seriously, why do I not see this like, anywhere? There's a guy who spams Ogerpon on ladder and it does look to be pretty strong. Taunt Swords Dance Ogerpon-W is one of the most dangerous Pokemon against stall with Horn Leech for recovery and completely ignores Dondozo. Ogerpon's very strong with Tera and can be supported with Magnezone. Ogerpon-C is weirder cause its dual STAB moves are resisted by Koraidon but can be explored more.

Not exactly nowhere to be found, but kinda surprised it isn't used more, with Scald Take Heart set being able to burn Pex and ignore status. Tail Glow is also dangerous.

This thing has been legal since day one but ngl while no Extreme Speed hurts, it's still powerful enough (With Tera Normal FakeQuick being as strong as FakeSpeed). It also breaks a lot of common Pokemon/force Tera so while it dies to any breeze it can still wallbreak well while still threatening offensive playstyles with FakeQuick. Special set has great wallbreaking power as well.

Give this a SpA donation and Tera Normal Boomburst can do ungodly things.

Not quite as strong as Ursaluna, but it still has impressive wallbreaking capability that notably hits Corv harder with CC and can still opt for Earthquake for Pex

Knock Off is a massive buff, allowing it to Knock all the Helmet by itself while repeatedly chipping down teams.

Like Calyrex-I but can be fast. Combos nicely with Slowking.
Short post this time since I'm kinda burned out atm.
Edit: We are also needing new sample teams so if you have any team you like please post them here!

 

[Cuddly]

Ok since Miraidon is banned, when are we getting Koriadon and Zacian ban?
I’m really tired of seeing the “Fast, high offense, good bulk” architype those three provide and they are at least as broken Miraidon.

 

[Zenpoppa]

Is Zamazenta-C bugged. I understand it is supposed to pass the base forms stats but it seems like HP, Attack and Speed are not passed and the Def and Spdef stats passed are way beyond base 115.

 

[Notagamer]

Is Zamazenta-C bugged. I understand it is supposed to pass the base forms stats but it seems like HP, Attack and Speed are not passed and the Def and Spdef stats passed are way beyond base 115.

Yea it’s bugged it’s acting like a receiver but takes up the god slot.

 

[Osake]

thanks god i'm finally out of the GG seasonals after what I wouldn't call good games but at least it's over I don't have to play this tier that is really unfun atm ngl

will do a little team dump since well no one is ever posting teams, the council neither, and this tier is still omotm so come on maybe we should get the given chance to revive it instead of sitting there and wait for the end of the month with nothing happening ?

my teams aren't particularly good, I made them all very quickly cuz anyway they'd still lose to 10 top tiers threats even if I took more time, i only used 1 one of them (the stall) to farm the ladder cuz I'm lazy and you don't need more to win ngl

- - - - - stall that won many games and farmed both ladder and seasonal but then i got bored of it cuz its such a boring playstyle so i decided to use untested teams to have fun, ig its solid esp with miraidon ban, nothing crazy you just abuse of pex in HP and you have fun

- - - - - same thing you abuse of HP Pex, SpA Pult, SpD Glisc, and Spe Iron Hands, and you have fun. boring team too, nothing crazy, but it wins lol

- - - - - this team is so bad but since it has Alomomola x electrode it somehow won games. dusclops is interesting but pex is almost strictly better.

- - - - - untested team, probably bad. SpA Ninetales might be the truth though

- - - - -
- - - - -
i had to build for gg ssnl 2h ago cuz my teams r boring (like come on 0 skill to use pex clod alo glisc and 2-3 brokens) so i built HO teams, never used the 1st one and well lost with the second 1 (although SD Hands and/or not getting unlucky could've won), idk if they're good but they're funny and you can replace the mons depending of your needs, they'll do work and be lowkey broken anyway

that's all, people alr know my opinion on the meta, there are a bunch of things to ban to make this tier playable and enjoyable, I'm glad longhiep expressed his opinion, I obviously disagree with him on a lot of points but at least he explained it, still waiting for the other council members to explain why they don't want to ban pex (among others like hands and tera) or just give their opinions on the meta and post the teams they are using, hopefully the last 10 days the meta gets as an omotom will be used to make it active, it sure has potential but it has 0 activity so it's complicated

sry to my bros Redflix ponchlake i let you down :(

 

[ponchlake]

Oh boy, we're discussing Toxapex again.. I will have to preface that I do believe that Toxapex is broken for reasons I'm about to get into, but I feel it is necessary to point that out because it's the crux of my next point which is largely why I think it ought to be banned. I will reply to each snippet of the reasoning provided by the council (or just Longhiep if his post doesn't include them by extension).

I think Toxapex is kinda like a necessary evil to keep all the offensive Pokemon in check while having enough weaknesses that it's not really broken.

My point, as it was then, is that Toxapex not only keeps powerful offensive Pokémon in check but it also strangles just about everything else and warps teambuilding because it's so obnoxiously powerful defensively. It has enough weaknessses when you consider the absolute top tier offensive mons (even then mainly the ones with toolkits that beat it), but that only comprises a very small fraction of the available mons. I personally don't agree with keeping a few mons in check at the expense of making everything that can't beat Toxapex damn near unviable. That just kills a tier's health and enjoyability in my eyes if every team has that one omnipresent check that you have to account for or you lose. I'm not a fan of "can your team beat Toxapex" being a litmus test for the questions of "is this team even worth using?" If the tier is perhaps unstable, you try to solve that through tiering action rather than keep something broken legal for the purpose of keeping other things in line. We have varying definitions of what is and isn't broken, but I still think old saying of "broken doesn't check broken" still applies here with Toxapex being that broken for the aforementioned reasons.

Some Pokemon that can brute force through Toxapex and force it to Tera, making it less effective: Electrode-H, Band Great Tusk, Hoopa-U, Zapdos, Arceus-Ground, Groudon, more niche mons like Armarouge.
Pokemon that can stay on it for an extended amount of time, forcing it to waste Recover's PP + possibly providing support: Gliscor, Clefable, Glowking, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Leftovers Iron Treads (If no Water move)
Pokemon that while not being able to 1v1 it directly, can force chip damage and win long term: Hamurott, Will-O-Wisp + Hex Dragapult,
Other methods to beat it: trapping moves (like Heatran, Block Garganacl), Trick/Switcheroo, Taunt Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Ogerpon and Enamorus, hazard stack, Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G.

Before I go through all the aforementioned checks (I say that loosely) here, let's go over why Toxapex is so overwhelming defensively. It has baseline defensive stats of 152/143 which can be paired with anything from 100 to 150 HP stat. It also has enough tools that you won't ever see the same one set, and the set can at times be tailored to beat just about whatever your team struggles with. Infestation + Poison Jab/Toxic is a combo we saw pre-Home and it does about what you expect. Chilling Water can keep physical sweepers/set-up at bay, especially when paired with several other things such as Rocky Helmet or poison through means of Toxic, Baneful Bunker, or Toxic Spikes among other ways. Haze does Haze things and removes stat raises. You get the point though. It has just about everything it needs to be effective defensively, but the defensive stats are really what makes it so versatile defensively.

ome Pokemon that can brute force through Toxapex and force it to Tera, making it less effective: Electrode-H, Band Great Tusk, Hoopa-U, Zapdos, Arceus-Ground, Groudon, more niche mons like Armarouge.

Your stats are so insanely inflated that you can realistically cover anything, including all the offensive threats Longhiep listed. Things get even worse for you when you have Tera legal, which kinda just invalidates all the aforementioned checks. I'm not sure why it was said that forcing it to Tera would make it any less effective. Sure you're now potentially weak to other certain types and threats post-Tera, but they have to have those in addition to one capable of forcing it to Tera in the first place which is hard enough by the fact that it's straining the builder as is? At the end of the day you're a 120/152/143 tank that is now what pure Fairy? What on that list now beats it now that it's a Fairy type? You eat up anything and everything Electrode-H, Band Great Tusk, Iron Hands, Hoopa-U, Zapdos, Arceus-Ground, and Armarogue could possibly do you off of stats alone and you 1v1 them back. Toxapex can sit in front of some of these as well without using Tera as well through sheer bulk and can do something like get off Toxic. You have Regenerator so you're not even punished that hard for doing so either because in all likelihood you can bring it in on the remaining 4/5 mons on their team and get more Regenerator. One of my biggest gripes with Toxapex is that sure there are things that can beat Toxapex, handily at that, but the reverse is also true where Toxapex is very capable of beating the very same things that are meant to beat it.

Pokemon that can stay on it for an extended amount of time, forcing it to waste Recover's PP + possibly providing support: Gliscor, Clefable, Glowking, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Leftovers Iron Treads (If no Water move)

This is true and applicable to just about majority of the defensive Pokemon we see in the meta. The same mentioned mons also do that to the same mentioned mons as well as to any other mons that may not be mentioned like Clodsire, Umbreon, or Dondozo, etc. etc. Passive pokemon don't have particularly great ways of muscling past each other. This isn't anything particularly new, and I'm not sure why Toxapex would be an outlier in this. Regenerator makes it an outlier though. Like I just said Regenerator aleviates so much of the pressure of having to click Recover by simply switching out. Your team is going to have answers for all the aforementioned PP wasters, but also those same mons can't threaten you enough to deter you from immediately bringing it back in to farm more Regenerator in a lot of cases. Like I said there's probably a good 4 mons on a team (save for HO) that you can just throw Pex in without much consequence and just heal back up. That may be a gross oversimplication but the point still stands that Toxapex can and will come in again and get Regenerator on most of your team, which makes PP stalling less effective vs it compared to the rest of the tier's defensive checks.

Pokemon that while not being able to 1v1 it directly, can force chip damage and win long term: Hamurott, Will-O-Wisp + Hex Dragapult,

Sure, but Toxapex can also beat both of them 1v1 long and short term. It really comes down to what both players have in the back after that. Toxapex can potentially just outright remove Hamurott on the spot if it has the correct moveset of Infestation + Toxic/Pjab/Baneful. Hex Pult does do a good enough job of wearing it down, but Toxapex also wears it down is the problem. The difference here is one can recover through different means while the other can't without something like Grassy Terrain or Wish support.

Other methods to beat it: trapping moves (like Heatran, Block Garganacl), Trick/Switcheroo, Taunt Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Ogerpon and Enamorus, hazard stack, Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G.

Sure, a lot of these are true. I will address some of them though. I don't think you should be staying in on Heatran or Garganacl with Toxapex unless you have a way to beat either or are willing to spend your Tera to do so, but I understand "just simply don't have Toxapex in vs either ever" is a weak argument and ignores a lot of the nuance that goes into decision making during games. However the point of "don't keep your mon in vs something that beats it" still stands to some degree. Am I crazy or does Ogerpon and Enamorous not just lose to Pjab variants of Pex? You Taunt it but you're taking like 25% and risk getting poisoned in the process? I haven't played much GG, so feel free to tell me I'm incorrect on that assumption. Though it does require you to have Pjab though so I can see it. I'm inclined to say HDB in response to hazard stacking, but Knock Off is a thing again so yeah. Neutralizing Gas Weezing.. Uhh sure? Someone may also need to inform me on the viability of this once again.

Its passivity means that it usually has to stay in after taking the hit unless you make a risky double switch, unlike Alomomola that can immediately regain momentum with Flip Turn. It can still deal a bit of damage, however since Haze and Recover are mandatory it has to choose between Infestation, Toxic/Poison Jab and Water move. Forgoing Infestation means Steel sits on it for free, no Toxic/Poison Jab means many wallbreakers will have more longevity in general, no Water move makes it more vulnerable to Taunt. And even when you consider all 3, there are still

I agree with most of this save for the risky double switch part since in all likelihood Toxapex is just comfortable sitting in front of the thing you're bringing it in versus anyways since it does that for basically 90% of the tier. 4MSS is a real pain though but it also goes both ways where while it can't always have the right coverage at any given moment, you can still tailor it to beat damn near whatever you want with its kit which makes it feel swingy (and people who know me know how I hate swingy shit).

Anyways I've regurgitated most of my previous talking points from when we first banned Toxapex to the best of my memory. This is definitely not that great of a post since I felt like I didn't really add much rather I mostly just tried to subtract from someone else's point, but I digress. I'm making this post because people were asking for my thoughts on this on GG, but since I'm not invested in the tier anymore I can't be bothered to give more than my thoughts on Toxapex since that guy is my #1 opp. So because of that don't expect any further responses from me, but please continue to discuss and respond anyways (especially among each other) because engagement and discussion are extremely necessary for a tier's health and direction I feel. With that said I hope more council members, as well as community members, can pitch in and give their thoughts on things and discuss among each other. I'll see you all in Gen10 GG where there's hopefully no Arceus, Toxapex, or Tera. Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Hello everyone. I want to preface this by saying that I don't play this meta. However I was curious regarding the current om of the month and sifted through recent topics because I thought this om was interesting. I have discovered that you have a Toxapex problem. Therefore, I have come up with a Toxapex solution for you.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Block
- Salt Cure
- Protect

The first set is Garganacl. Simply click block, salt cure and pp stall the pex to death. Ideally used with higher spdef to take water moves better.



Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Taunt / Substitute
- Earthquake / Taunt

The next one is toxicroak. You're immune to water and toxic so you can simply bulk up and kill the pex. If they have haze, it's more difficult but you can run sub, taunt or both to eventually beat it. Blocks alomomola flip turn as well. That will be all and I expect toxapex usage to fall to zero percent within three days.