actually mewtwo Y that gives spa to ninjask is good
Im not a big fan of stall pokes (i dont even like using shuckle) but i have to agree with him, shuckle is not broken or even close to broken, stall is coming said everything already but i want to add a bitShuckle, my joke wasn't a joke ?
As you say iLlama, he has different roles:
* Spiker in HO ( with God like Deoxys or Pheromosa):
Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Toxic
- Encore
With Deoxys as God, his bulk is increased with 25%.
With Pheromosa as God, his bulk is increased with 43%.
Its main function is to pose SR and SW. And he achieves that very well.
BUT he can't do anything in the rest of the match. He can't stop Defog or Rapid Spin, and he can't easily pose hazards again thanks to his weakness to SR and his serious lack of recovery. Moreover, he's useless outside of pose of Hazards and he can't prevent of adverse Hazards.
And his bulk is increased while he receive bad HP stats ( 71 is bad and 50 is very bad ).
So, Shuckle is very useful in HO's team. But he's very predictable and he's counter by any Hazard removers.
* Spiker with a " classic " God ( Arceus, Groudon, Lugia, Kyurem-W, ....):
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web / Shell Smash
- Toxic / Encore
- Rest
With Groudon as God, his bulk is increased with 65%.
With Arceus as God, his bulk is increased with 83%. It's the same order of magnitude than the increase of ATT of Alolan-Marowak with Deo-A or Swellow with Deo-A.
But Shuckle is the definition of passivity. Outside of Toxic and Encore, he has no impact. He's more passive than Blobs. He can stall, that's it.
In HO, give HP to Shuckle is good idea because he's one of the few pokemon who increase his bulk with 50 in Base HP.
In "Classic" team, it's a huge sacrifice to let HP to a such passive pokemon.
Shuckle is like Dusclops, too passive to be broken. That's why M-Sab was banned, he isn't passive.
* God :
ATT: 20
DEF: 230
SPE ATT: 20
SPE DEF : 230
SPE : 10
Shuckle creates 2 monsters. Not 3 like HO with Deo or 5 semi-monster with Arceus for example. JUST two. And the other pokemon are handicapped by these bad stats.
For example, if we made a UnaClefable with 614 of Def( it's +150% in DEF), he can tank everything on the physical( Except Alolan-Marowak with the attack of Hoopa-U) or VERY powerful Steel attacker. But this Clefable can't tank Serperior now, he can't tank very well any special move. So any Mix can't broke an entire Shuckle team.
And regular Shuckle is again passive in Shuckle team.
Let's talk about M-Sableye and the result of his ban.
M-Sableye is the perfect counter of Shuckle. But his ban doesn't help Shuckle's team. In deed, without Magic Bounce users, (Espeon isn't viable), Hazards control is VERY hard. And if a Hard-Stall team lose the Hazard control, the battle is lost. Even if the DEF monster hardstall the half of the team and the DEF SPE monster hardstall the other half.
Shuckle's team aren't broken, but if we build an entire team not thinking about them, a team without Hazards posers, you gonna lose everytime.
Shuckle is good in this three positions. But he's predictable in any roles. Shuckle as God is efficient as Deoxys as God is.
The impact of SR is far more important than the impact of Shuckle. SR doesn't deserve a suspect. So, Shuckle doesn't deserve a suspect.
Good syllogism ?
not to mention that tarrows is still decent off zygardes 100 attack, while also "knocking" flying types onto the ground so EP can hit them harder. of course, kinda terrible idea if your running specs, which is the only real viable way to run special zyggy. but idk, if your running like...draconium or groundinium its a good choice just so mons like celesteela dont wall you.I really feel like Crobat is underrated and should be ranked in at least A-. With a really high speed, decent bulk, Infiltrator and a good typing it checks many dangerous threats such as Serperior (strongly resists Leaf Storm, neutral to coverage, Brave Bird/Sludge Bomb KOs) and Buzzwole because it bypasses Sub. It also has reliable recovery and good support moves such as Defog, Taunt, and Toxic that ignores Sub. It is also immune to poison and burn doesn't hurt it much, making it a really good answer to stall mons like Shuckle or even an excellent stall breaker if it is a special set running Nasty Plot.
Also I think Zygarde-50 with Special Attack is very interesting. While losing the good Thousand Arrows is bad, Zygarde does get a reliable dragon STAB in Core Enforcer and also a Ground STAB in Earth Power, it also has decent coverage moves like Focus Blast and Sludge Wave.
Im not underestimating its bulk, it sure is huge but the thing is, in practice this thing is completley helpless and passive when taunted or even without being taunted it loses to so many mons(fini/ferrothorn/espeon or other steels), and since sableye got banned ive been seeing an increase of the use of taunt to combat fatter teams (never leave home without a taunt user)ironically, i find shucks most amazing set to be a trapper set with giratina/arceus HP. its hp is absolutely titanic. shrugging off even +2 serperior leaf storms from kyurem white. meanwhile it can slowly dispatch offensive teams with the combination of toxic, infestation, rest, and shell smash/knock off/encore/stealth rock it sounds really eh on paper, but as people always expect the hazards set, meaning it catches people off guard. not to mention stall LOVES a good swellow counter. especially one that laughs EVERYTHING off swellow could ever hope to do (honestly, there are so few viable swellow checks that do that.) with decent hp, shuckle is NOT to be underestimated as a wall. as it can even stall out rest turns with its stupid high bulk.
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt(170 special attack) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle(150 hp) in Electric Terrain: 126-148 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 248 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm(170 special attack) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 199-235 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 81-96 (16.1 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Shuckle: 158-188 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO(scarf is more common then banded iirc, banded just bodies poor shuck)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb(most run ghostium tho) Mimikyu Play Rough(150 attack) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Shuckle: 203-239 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
its bulk is NOTHING to be underestimated. its a great wall even if its best recovery is rest. because as you can see, stalling out the rest turns is EZPZ for the turtle-bug
I really feel like Crobat is underrated and should be ranked in at least A-. With a really high speed, decent bulk, Infiltrator and a good typing it checks many dangerous threats such as Serperior (strongly resists Leaf Storm, neutral to coverage, Brave Bird/Sludge Bomb KOs) and Buzzwole because it bypasses Sub. It also has reliable recovery and good support moves such as Defog, Taunt, and Toxic that ignores Sub. It is also immune to poison and burn doesn't hurt it much, making it a really good answer to stall mons like Shuckle or even an excellent stall breaker if it is a special set running Nasty Plot.
Also I think Zygarde-50 with Special Attack is very interesting. While losing the good Thousand Arrows is bad, Zygarde does get a reliable dragon STAB in Core Enforcer and also a Ground STAB in Earth Power, it also has decent coverage moves like Focus Blast and Sludge Wave.
In a shuckle team, the two monsters need to be useful. VERY useful. Two choice:Here is how Shuckle ensures it stays up: Infestation as foe spins/defogs, then Encore whatever it uses next, then reset sticky webs, then reset stealth rocks, then switch to a Fast Ghost with Taunt to prevent Rapid Spin and Defog as the foe encores for the final turn of encore. You can prevent hazards from disappearing. Infestation prevents them from switching out after Encore.
Alternatively, you can switch to Dugtrio with Choice Band instead of a Ghost to trap and KO the foe before they get their last move.
Obviously, Magic Bounce breaks Taunt and hazards, but you get my point. Shuckle can set up for teammate to prevent removal.
Has anyone tried Guzzlord on a God Shuckle team receiving either defense or special defense?
Remember Ferrothorn is a great Speed recipient because the slow speed boosts Gyro Ball's Base power, while Ferrothorn resists Water and adds spikes to the entry hazards for the team.
I'm talking about Guzzlord not Buzzwole, in not sure if you meant Guzzlord, but you were one letter away from Buzzwole.In a shuckle team, the two monsters need to be useful. VERY useful. Two choice:
* For a offensive team, he has to be a win condition like CM Clefable (DEF) or BU Buzzwole (DEF SPE)
* For a defensive team, he has to be a defensive utility like Defog Mandibuzz (DEF),Heal Bell Clefable (DEF or DEF SPE),or Phazer Hippodown (DEF SPE)
In any case, the two monsters need a viable recovery (And rest ISN'T !)
Moreover, it's better than the monsters has a lot of HP and a good statistics of defense (special or not) in the other defense.
Guzzwole hasn't a viable recovery(He has Rest or Z-Stockpile). Its only utility is pseudo-hazing. He has a bad ability because he's too passive to make a kill.
Guzzwole is a bad monster.
I would like to see the suspect test. Shadow Tag is an extremely powerful ability and banning it from (regular) OU and any OU-based OM was necessary. Godly Gift however is a special case, as it is an OU based OM which allows the usage of a single Uber per team. As Shadow Tag is banned in OU, every Shadow Tag user (Gothitelle, Wobbuffet and Gengar-Mega are the only ones) is considered as an Uber and will be the team's god in GG. This means, using Shadow Tag comes with huge downsides, as none of the available Shadow Tag users has particularly good stats to pass - don't forget, that Gengar-Mega passes regular Gengar's stats - and you also can't run gods which are better and more versatile on their own like Primal Groudon or Arceus.
In total, I would support the re-suspect/unban of the other STag users too, as they pass even worse stats than Gengar (except for Wobb's HP) and also are worse themselves than Gengar by far. Gothitelle severely lacks bulk in a meta like this with hard-hitting stuff like Marowak, Koko or Swellow running rampant, and Wobbufett can't do anything, as it also lacks bulk to abuse Encore + Counter/Mirrror Coat and has no tools to remove stall mons it trapped - it doesn't even get Rest to recover and cure status conditions like pioson.
This is a discussion of Gengarite, not Shadow Tag itself or its other users.Shadow Tag ban.
While the Shadow Tag makes the mon Uber and thus a God, does having a gengar hold gengarite make it a god? Cause if no then you can slap whatever mon with good stats that isn't Uber in the HP slot as your God (say... KyuB?) and thus spread good stats while still having Mega GengarI would like to see the suspect test. Shadow Tag is an extremely powerful ability and banning it from (regular) OU and any OU-based OM was necessary. Godly Gift however is a special case, as it is an OU based OM which allows the usage of a single Uber per team. As Shadow Tag is banned in OU, every Shadow Tag user (Gothitelle, Wobbuffet and Gengar-Mega are the only ones) is considered as an Uber and will be the team's god in GG. This means, using Shadow Tag comes with huge downsides, as none of the available Shadow Tag users has particularly good stats to pass - don't forget, that Gengar-Mega passes regular Gengar's stats - and you also can't run gods which are better and more versatile on their own like Primal Groudon or Arceus.
In total, I would support the re-suspect/unban of the other STag users too, as they pass even worse stats than Gengar (except for Wobb's HP) and also are worse themselves than Gengar by far. Gothitelle severely lacks bulk in a meta like this with hard-hitting stuff like Marowak, Koko or Swellow running rampant, and Wobbufett can't do anything, as it also lacks bulk to abuse Encore + Counter/Mirrror Coat and has no tools to remove stall mons it trapped - it doesn't even get Rest to recover and cure status conditions like pioson.
I brought up the topic of Gengarite while you shifted to Shadow Tag in general, brining up Gothitelle and Wobbuffet which is banned discussion.Gengar holding Gengarite will be the god just like Salamence with Salamencite or Metagross with Metagrossite.
iLlama You brought the topic up yourself.
If you're referring to the original OU banning of Mega Gengar, it became an Uber because it was a broken Pokemon stat wise, and on top of that, it had Shadow Tag (which was unbanned in OU at the time) which threw it over the top. Not sure why that decision in gen 6 OU affects this situation, but ok. Mega Gengar only donates the base form's 500 total base stats, so I'm not sure how the comparison with Salamence and Metagross is even remotely relevant. The real reason both Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross are terrible God Pokemon in Godly Gift is 1) they donate lower stats than the better gods and 2) they aren't very good on their own in the metagame.I don't get it. That's insane.
M-Gengar became an Uber at the same time he got Shadow Tag.
M-Metagross and M-Salamence aren't better than a classic God like Arceus. But when Arceus give 720 of Base stats, M-Metagross and M-Salamence give only 600 of Base stats. That's why both are terrible God in GG.
I think you're over-exaggerating here quite a bit. The real concern with Gengarite is whether or not the Perish Trap set will ruin Godly Gift, which I'm not sure about, i.e. why it's a discussion topic. If Gengarite were to be unbanned, it's not like Mega Gengar can come in and just 1v1 every Stall team and instantly win. That's ridiculous. If you think that Mega Gengar will turn stall from a great archetype into one that is unplayable then that means that stall has no viable way of stopping it. This means that the multiple stall compositions that work exceedingly well in Godly Gift, i.e. Regenerator core, Lugia builds, Arceus builds, Giratina builds, etc. all lose to Mega Gengar and Gengar-boosted Pokemon, which I really don't see as being true. Beyond the stall builds, you also need to consider what Pokemon are viable and common in Godly Gift to see how it would affect them directly. Judging from common Pokemon you would find on stall both offensively and defensively and with say Ho-oh as the God, let's see how non-Perish Trap Mega Gengar fairs. Using the set Taunt/Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave or Bomb/Focus Blast:M-Gengar has the capacity to BREAK any Defensive Core. All of them. He's going to ruin Stall all by himself.
I think he will become too unhealthy for this metagame.
This brought my attention on an point I wanted to make before, the base stat of a god is not an accurate description of of a god's ability (apart on the stat distribution, since this is more direct). Note that while Arceus has a really high 720 BST it can only pass 600 since it will occupy a slot itself, Lugia has 'only' 680 BST but it can usually pass 590 (taking up Atk or SpA itself). So this actually makes Kyurem-White the 'best' passer in terms of total stats passed if it occupied the Def or Spe stat.M-Metagross and M-Salamence aren't better than a classic God like Arceus. But when Arceus give 720 of Base stats, M-Metagross and M-Salamence give only 600 of Base stats. That's why both are terrible God in GG.
What's the point? Shadow Tag's just straight up uncompetitive, as Gen 6 has taught us. Nothing good will come out of unbanning Gengarite.iLlama Honestly, you should remove STag from the banned discussion topics list when you bring it up for discussion yourself.
And you don't seem to read my posts...
Gengar-Mega and Shadow Tag are closely conmected, as Gengar alwwys was the most prominent user of it, Shadow Tag was what made it an Uber (it also has good stats, but so has Alakazam, and it isn't an Uber), and once it was even considered to ban Gengar from Ubers because of Shadow Tag.
I also don't think that Gengar-Mega singlehandedly ruins stall builds, but it can be dangerous and win against some mons depending on its moveset.
- Ho-oh and Arceus (depending on its moveset) force Gengar out, Lugia can also phaze it with Dtail.
- Skarmory, Tangrowth and Celsteela can 2HKO Gengar with Brave Bird/Earthquake/Heavy Slam, Shed Shell is also a perfectly viable item for Skarmory. If Gengar is a Perish Trapper with Sub and Protect, it wins against Celesteela and Growth, but Skarmory can whirlwind it out, as such variants like to use Disable over Taunt.
- Dugtrio loses unless its Sash is intact, as Sucker Punch doesn't OHKO. It wins however against Perish Trappers without attacks.
- Extremely passive mons such as Alomomola, Shuckle or Clefable lose to Perush Trap sets and to sets with attacks and taunt, but can otherwise stall Gengar out of PP if they're in the “right“ slots (HP for Shuckle and SpDef for Alomomola and Clefable)
- Tyranitar wins against non-Focus Miss sets with Pursuit, otherwise it needs SpDef investment or an Assault Vest.
- Dusclops can't be trapped as it is a ghost
- Gliscor, Scizor and Gastrodon can kill Gengar with STAB Ground attacks or U-turn out (in case of Scizor).
Well i think it should be considered, it should be available as an option, its an uber after all not a anything goes pokeWhat's the point? Shadow Tag's just straight up uncompetitive, as Gen 6 has taught us. Nothing good will come out of unbanning Gengarite.
It should not be considered at all? If you played last generation you'd know STag is out of hand, and that was just with Gothitelle. Dugtrio and Tyranitar are definitely not answers, as Mega Gengar has ways to immobilize them (Disable, Hypnosis). iLlama has already stated he won't be allowing Gengarite, for good reason, so there's no point in continuing this discussion. In any case, there are plenty of more interesting and fair Pokemon to consider.Well i think it should be considered, it should be available as an option, its an uber after all not a anything goes poke
I find it weird that m-gengar is not banned in any uber metagame (from normal ubers to mix and mega to whatever else) but here it was just quickbanned?
If we can handle stuff like mega mewtwo y here why is mega gengar such a big deal, even compared to other shadow tag'ers it cant even do encore/trick shenengians and boost till +6, and stall does have answers to it [see: pursuit dugtrio/tyranitar], not even mentioning it has a huge opportunity cost
I think least a suspect test should be made to let the community decide ifs its broken or not
And if sleep/trapping turns out to be the problem, then cant we just make a complex ban like ubers that stops this strategy
Outside rn, gonna continue later