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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Tyranitar is probably the bulkiest of the powerful Pursuit users, and yet it's been demonstrated that Mega-Gengar can get a OHKO against him, unless he's invested enough in bulk that Pursuit won't OHKO Mega-Gengar. So his Crunch, the only real option he has to threaten out Mega-Gengar, isn't a reliable option to chase Mega-Gengar away, because Mega-Gengar will outspeed and likely OHKO.
If you can think of a better option, I'll bet we're all willing to hear it. So far, Scizor has been listed as the only viable Pursuit threat to Mega-Gengar (being able to both Pursuit OHKO Mega-Gengar, and able to win a one-on-one fight), and thus the only threat that can possibly stop Mega-Gengar from switching and completely dominating the match through sniping tactics.
This is why we use facts, not assumptions. My apologies. When I tested it and it didn't work against Baton Pass, I assumed that it didn't against other switching moves as well.
And, as has been mentioned by others, he isn't supposed to run Life Orb. You're succeeding against him because people are trying to use him as a Sweeper, which is not his role. He's a Sniper/Support, made to clear walls that stop the team's Sweeper. If people used him that way, you'd likely lose a lot more often. And you might not even notice that it was because of Mega-Gengar, because Mega-Gengar wouldn't be the Sweeper who ended you, merely the setup for it.
seriously if you make a team without at least one priority move you're gonna lose to a LOT more than just Mega Gengar....
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All of them. And the perish trap set is actually overrated as fuck. More offensive oriented teams(where you should be using Mega Gengar) prefer Mega Gengar with actually offensive moves to clear the way for its partner. User Mikedecishere just posted an RMT with Mega Gengar being used it like it should: pick x mon counters to guarantee a sweep. Link to his team here:http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gas-pedal-xy-ou-hyper-offense.3493531/#post-5011035
It might not be the best team, but it should be enough to understand why Mega Gengar is so overpowered when used properly.
not this again...
And lol @ bold.
Not if he is being used correctly. I'm sorry, but this is clear. Mega-Gengar is a tool designed to hone in and shut down a particular Pokémon, two if you get lucky. He's not a sweeper, or a setup Pokémon, or a bulky attacker. He has great stats for sweeping, sure, but sometimes you have to look beyond that. He isn't a Pokémon that should just be thrown out at random. He is a piece to play at a particularly calculated time. And if you use him in that way, I think it's fair to say that he has been fairly conclusively shown to be pretty much unstoppable at taking down whatever target he wants to take down. At which point, the fact that he is "easy to handle" is meaningless.
Again, if you are getting swept by Mega-Gengar, you are facing an opponent who is using him wrong.
You've been playing people who probably haven't even run the perish song set or have very little to no clue on how to properly utilize mega gengar. People especially on wifi try to run him as a sweeper and not a utility pokemon...
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So, after doing a shit ton of play testing with HO Mega-Gar, anyone who thinks its offensive power is underwhelming is obviously not utilizing it in the right way.
I think that the biggest issue is that people believe that you need to run Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb / Disable / Perish Song/ etc. in order for it to be viable.
I really encourage you to test this team out and tell me if you think it's still underwhelming, because for making this team in two minutes and going 34-3 with it (the corrupted ladder missed a lot of my wins and one loss :[), I can tell you that it's really not underwhelming in the slightest.
I think that the biggest issue is that people believe that you need to run Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb / Disable / Perish Song/ etc. in order for it to be viable.
I really encourage you to test this team out and tell me if you think it's still underwhelming, because for making this team in two minutes and going 34-3 with it (the corrupted ladder missed a lot of my wins and one loss :[), I can tell you that it's really not underwhelming in the slightest.
I just took a walk and thought about it, honestly I'm on the fence now. It's not really what MGengar does for himself it's his ability to clear the way so easily for others. It's discussion like this I like not "OMG ur so dumb MGengar so OP"
Yep. This is why he is being considered for banning under the Uber Support clause, because he clears the way for the team's sweeper to rock.
If you need any further evidence that he's not a sweeper, look at his move pool. It's full of tons of powerful attacks, which can hit almost anything Super Effective. But how many of those have above 100 BP, the way most Sweeper moves do?
Mega-Gengar is meant to be tailored to pick out and end a particular threat (which he can do, since you've planned for what threat he needs to take out, and he'll hit that target for SE damage from that massive base Special Attack). If he dies after that, it doesn't matter. The wall between your sweeper and victory is gone.
Chansey can't dealt with the perish song variant, trap, perish, protect, sub, protect, switch means a dead chansey that is a pokemon that should be able to wall, this is the case for other walls too. You can't switch into you M Alakazam one M Gengar is in your pokemon is good as dead, as he chooses who he switches into and chooses what to switch out of, unless it's a persuit trapper that got switched in from a good guess. The only way your pursuit killer is likely to come in is after one of your pokemon have died. What if you choice scarf user comes in and does a normal/fighting move, Gengar comes in and you just lost one of your pokemon by a stupid way.
Two kills is more than enough. You're trying to use Mega-Gengar to sweep. That's not his purpose.
Set up your team as usual, without Mega-Gengar. Find out what Pokémon cause the most troubles or is the biggest stumbling block for you. Then set up a Mega-Gengar to stop that particular threat. Then try playing again, and this time, use Mega-Gengar to address that threat.
Once you've stopped the block to your team, watch how much easier it is to sweep with your OTHER Pokémon.
I was going to say, the perish song set is the only thing that makes him a threat. Answer ? Ban perish song and gengarite togother, just as they should've done with tail glow and manaphy. I don't get what's the problem with banning a certain move on a certain poke.
Perish Song isn't the only thing that makes him a threat. It's not even the primary thing that makes him a threat.
His ability to run moves that are Super Effective against essentially every Pokémon in the game, combined with his massive stats, and the fact that Pokémon can't run from him, that's what makes him a threat.
Whatever it is that threatens or walls your team, you can find a move in Gengar's arsenal to hit it for SE damage and take it out. And there is nothing that can be done about it. Perish Song is only for a few particular walls.
Also, Smogon still doesn't do complex bans, like an item and a move together.
I just have never had a problem with mega gengar, and I hardly ever see anyone who does have a problem with it for that matter.
That's because most people don't yet know how to use him correctly. Heck, if you need evidence of that, look at WhinoTheRhino at the top of this page (no offense meant to you, Whino, you're just a good example). He was supporting the ban stance, and yet he was having trouble when he set up a team specifically to showcase Mega Gengar. Because he was trying to use Mega Gengar as a sweeper, as most people do when they first spot those stats.
When the metagame begins to be refined, people are going to figure out his proper usage, and if he's still in OU then, the game is going to be broken.
THIS. ARGUMENT. IS. POINTLESS.
I don't have any problems with MKangaskhan. Have never lost to someone running it. Does this mean I think MKangaskhan isn't any good? Hell no.
Personal experience doesn't mean fuck all unless you can give something else to support your case other than "lol I haven't had any problems."
Isn't that what makes a poke uber ? I don't think you saw more then 2 people saying "lol havent had any probs with mblaziken", if a poke isn't a problem, it shouldn't be banned. Mega gengar would not survive ubers imo. And according to the poll, it looks like he's here to stay.
Seems like someone didn't read the definition of an Uber.
Also, fyi, the poll doesn't count for anything.
And who cares or not if MGengar would survive Ubers? Ubers is a banlist first, and a tierlist second. As long as anything is disruptive to the OU metagame, no matter if it will do well or not in Ubers it will get kicked up here.
Dude, you're completely missing my point. Why in hell would you think I'm trying to sweep a team with PSong... And you also missed the part where I said, "I could only pull off two kills when I was lucky". I was asking for some replays at 1800+ ladder so I could see how to trap the counters to my sweeper. The problems I was having was finding the right time to switch into the counter to my sweeper, as it was very difficult due to MGengar's mediocre bulk. Seriously bro, did you actually read my post? I'm not trying to sweep teams with PSong obvs.
Then why are you complaining about the low kill count, or the inability to create many Substitutes?
With the Perish Song set, you only need to create a single substitute to survive long enough to get Perish Song off (the other turn is blocked by Protect).
If you can kill one Pokémon, then you shouldn't need Mega-Gengar anymore.
And, again, if you're not facing one of the ideal targets, there are still better setups than Perish Song.
Trapping is easy. If the opponent is switching on the Mega-Turn, then just switch out, and come back in the next time your target is on the field.
Listen man. I ain't no super pro player. I merely just said something out of opinion. Not "I SAID HES NOT A PROBLEM DONT BAN HIM NOOBS". I'm not a highly intelligent anayliser of pokemon like the ones who posted this thread. Just a casual player who battles here and there.
The Poll means nothing, its just something the OU council is using to see community response and, given the lack of good, no-ban arguments, it will most likely be banned by the OU Council.
It's not as easy as you make it sound though. I keep on saying MGengar has mediocre bulk. You can't just switch in and out like it's nothing, if MGengar get's hit there goes half his health. Don't forget the turn it takes to use PSong as well. It's harder than it seems to just switch in and use PSong.
Also, about other sets, that's what I was wondering in my original post. What is the set that makes MGengar overpowered? What are some other sets in general?
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