Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP25W - Snaelstrom

SHSP

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Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Snaelstrom update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Snaelstrom, please refer here for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.
 

SHSP

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Alrighty, first CAP up to bat for my suite of ULing is Snaelstrom:

Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Snaelstrom's Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

Evo. Liquidation
HS Liquidation
HS Aqua Ring
HS Rapid Spin
HS Whirlpool
HS Attract
0 Pound
0 Water Gun
0 Growl
0 Struggle Bug
5 Growl
8 Struggle Bug
11 Charm
14 Confusion
17 Aqua Jet
22 Heal Pulse
27 Brine
32 Rain Dance
40 U-Turn
44 Psychic
48 Bug Buzz
56 Captivate
60 Hydro Pump
64 Swords Dance


Acid Armor (Gastrodon)
Powder (Ribombee)
Psycho Shift (Togekiss)
Spiky Shield (Togedemaru)
Spotlight (Clefable)
Sticky Web (Ribombee)


TM01 Work Up
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return

TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM68 Giga Impact
TM75 Swords Dance
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger

TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM99 Dazzling Gleam
TM100 Confide


Block
Bug Bite

Helping Hand
Hydro Cannon
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Liquidation
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Signal Beam
Snore
Stealth Rock
Trick
Uproar
Water Pledge
Water Pulse
Wonder Room


Celebrate?
Metronome


Questions of the day update:

1: Looking at the removals from the TM list, the two that stand out from a competitive and a process standpoint are Infestation and Toxic. Both were allowed in the process (in part to work in tandem), though Toxic in particular was a de facto mandatory move up until this generation. Should these moves stay; and if so, where should they be moved into?

2: The rest of these TM removals are less competitive in nature: Double Team, Echoed Voice, Swagger, Confide, Block, Bug Bite, Magic Coat and Water Pulse. Should these moves remain part of Snael's movepool? Where should they find a home if they are allowed to stay?

3: Are there any new TMs, TRs, or new moves introduced in SWSH that should be added to Snaelstrom's movepool? Keep in mind that these should be flavor-oriented additions.

4: Celebrate is locked to an event that at the moment only exists in the last generation- unavailable now. Does the fact that gamefreak haven't released an event enough of a precedent for us to allow another cap event?
 

Bughouse

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I believe in this case that Toxic should stay. From a competitive perspective, it's a part of Snaelstrom's best set in SM. From a flavor perspective, despite not being a Poison type, it is a Pokemon somewhat themed around poison. We can't know for sure, since Gliscor and Breloom are not in SS right now, but I suspect if they were they would learn Toxic for similar Poison Heal based flavor reasons.

I also think Infestation should stay as it's a niche option, has good flavor, and aligns well with Araquanid and Toxapex learning it.

I don't think Bug Bite is necessary to fit in, since Snaelstrom already learns Leech Life and U-Turn. None of the other lost moves seem particularly relevant to me.
 

MrDollSteak

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1. Both Infestation and Toxic should stay IMO as far as being both flavorful and Competitive. Infestation has been added as an Egg move for a few similar style passive Pokemon such as Mareanie and Shuckle, who also share similar egg groups to Dewpider. Toxic was kept on a few bulky waters, and as far as flavour goes, this would be perfect for Snael. I think having it either as a Level up or egg move would be fine.

2. I can't really justify keeping any of the other TM removals. Bug Bite is perhaps the most flavorful keep, and could be incorporates into the level up moves, but I'm not sure its needed.

3. As far as a new move that would be flavorful for Snaelstrom, the main one that springs to mind for me is Life Dew. This is a new move that has received quite a large distribution in level up moves for a range of water and fairy types, which fits well with snaelstrom's breeding groups. I dont think it is a move that is competitive enough to push Snael over the brink for the sake of flavour, but may be able to see some niche usage combined with Spiky Shell.

Muddy Water is a new TR addition that has been given to almost every Water type so I would also recommend this. Metronome being an Event move, and now a TR may also be added reasonably I think, while removing Event bloat.

4. I personally think we should remove event moves until transfers open up for flavour. The moves are useless without Z-Crystals anyway.
 

Deck Knight

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Toxic and Infestation are definite must-keeps. Although there are no direct comparisons with other Poison Heal mons, aside from Poison-types, it's Bug types that kept Toxic the most. Shuckle, Accelgor, and Vespiquen all retained it, Bug's with "Toxic" flavor kept Toxic. I'd say throw Toxic in the Level-Up slot left by Captivate and Infestation over Powder in Egg.

I also like Bug Bite, but I don't feel it has enough justification to stay. It's mostly learned now by bugs with prominent mandibles, and Snaelstrom isn't that. It's a sea snail. Celebrate is an Event move and since GF usually does Events with a new release and didn't this time, I'm inclined to leave Z-Celebrate in the Z-Move Gen until Nintendo actually does an event that isn't a Dynamax den rotation.

Flavor suggestions:
Body Slam - Pokemon with big bodies tend to get this, though the 30% para rate is a consideration.
Body Press - Body Press has a lot of distribution with shelled mons, including Blastoise, Torkoal, and Turtonator. This would be the most controversial addition as it's legitimate new coverage, and Snaelstrom already has Acid Armor.
Life Dew - While it is limited, the Water Pokemon that have it tend to be shelled or spiky like Shellder or Corsola. It could go over Spotlight as an Egg Move.
Icicle Spear - Spiky Water mons like Corsola and Shellder get this. Mostly inferior to Ice Punch.
Mega Punch - Starters get this a lot.
Mega Kick - Bipedal starters get this a lot.
Metronome - Random Addition.
Muddy Water - Weaker Surf/Hydro Pump
Pin Missile - Only makes sense a Spiky Shield should send out pin missiles.
Razor Shell - Snaelstrom has a shell so spiky it can use Spiky Shield. It's essentially Liquidation weighted towards the secondary effect instead of towards Base Power.
Venom Drench - Keeps up the poison flavor, and is learned by Pyukumuku and Tympole line which are also Poison themed.
 

snake

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Slot in Toxic where Captivate is, and put Infestation in Egg Moves I think.

Here's a list of TMs and TRs that I think Snaelstrom should get:

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM29 Charm
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM36 Whirlpool
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM41 Helping Hand
TM45 Dive
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM55 Brine
TM56 U-turn
TM61 Guard Swap
TM70 Trick Room
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM83 Razor Shell
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR00 Swords Dance
TR01 Body Slam
TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR16 Waterfall
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR34 Future Sight
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR42 Hyper Voice
TR45 Muddy Water
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR79 Heavy Slam
TR83 Ally Switch
TR84 Scald
TR91 Venom Drench
TR92 Dazzling Gleam
TR96 Pollen Puff
TR98 Liquidation


A few comments:

Heavy Slam probably has some competitive implications, but it fits very well flavorfully...not committed to having it but thought I'd through it out there. Also not sure about Body Press. The rest is pretty Snaelstrom-y: Water-, Bug-, Fairy-, Psychic-, and weak Poison-type moves for the most part.

Life Dew sounds like a super flavorful addition to Snaelstrom, and dedicating the moveslot to that low of recovery will be really inconsequential to its success. Seems easiest to put it in Egg Moves.
 
Slot in Toxic where Captivate is, and put Infestation in Egg Moves I think.

Here's a list of TMs and TRs that I think Snaelstrom should get:

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM29 Charm
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM36 Whirlpool
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM41 Helping Hand
TM45 Dive
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM55 Brine
TM56 U-turn
TM61 Guard Swap
TM70 Trick Room
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM83 Razor Shell
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR00 Swords Dance
TR01 Body Slam
TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR16 Waterfall
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR34 Future Sight
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR42 Hyper Voice
TR45 Muddy Water
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR79 Heavy Slam
TR83 Ally Switch
TR84 Scald
TR91 Venom Drench
TR92 Dazzling Gleam
TR96 Pollen Puff
TR98 Liquidation


A few comments:

Heavy Slam probably has some competitive implications, but it fits very well flavorfully...not committed to having it but thought I'd through it out there. Also not sure about Body Press. The rest is pretty Snaelstrom-y: Water-, Bug-, Fairy-, Psychic-, and weak Poison-type moves for the most part.

Life Dew sounds like a super flavorful addition to Snaelstrom, and dedicating the moveslot to that low of recovery will be really inconsequential to its success. Seems easiest to put it in Egg Moves.
All Pokémon for the most part get Endure in this gen, so it should have that
 
Slot in Toxic where Captivate is, and put Infestation in Egg Moves I think.

Here's a list of TMs and TRs that I think Snaelstrom should get:

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM29 Charm
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM36 Whirlpool
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM41 Helping Hand
TM45 Dive
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM55 Brine
TM56 U-turn
TM61 Guard Swap
TM70 Trick Room
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM83 Razor Shell
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR00 Swords Dance
TR01 Body Slam
TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR16 Waterfall
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR34 Future Sight
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR42 Hyper Voice
TR45 Muddy Water
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR79 Heavy Slam
TR83 Ally Switch
TR84 Scald
TR91 Venom Drench
TR92 Dazzling Gleam
TR96 Pollen Puff
TR98 Liquidation


A few comments:

Heavy Slam probably has some competitive implications, but it fits very well flavorfully...not committed to having it but thought I'd through it out there. Also not sure about Body Press. The rest is pretty Snaelstrom-y: Water-, Bug-, Fairy-, Psychic-, and weak Poison-type moves for the most part.

Life Dew sounds like a super flavorful addition to Snaelstrom, and dedicating the moveslot to that low of recovery will be really inconsequential to its success. Seems easiest to put it in Egg Moves.
My only problem with this submission is Pollen Puff, it doesn't fit at all with the distribution of the move, which is mostly flower based Grass types and even then is very restrictive, with the likes of Venusaur not learning it. The only two Bug types that learn it are Butterfree and Ribombee; even Vespiquen, another bee based Pokémon, doesn't have access to it. No other complaints.
 

SHSP

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Alrighty folks, good discussion here on Snael, and the thread has seemed to reach a good consensus; lets wrap this up.
Presenting the updated Snaelstrom Movepool, changes in bold:
Evo. Liquidation
HS Liquidation
HS Aqua Ring
HS Rapid Spin
HS Whirlpool
HS Attract
0 Pound
0 Water Gun
0 Growl
0 Struggle Bug
11 Charm
14 Confusion
17 Aqua Jet
22 Heal Pulse
27 Brine
32 Rain Dance
40 U-Turn
44 Psychic
48 Bug Buzz
56 Toxic
60 Hydro Pump
64 Swords Dance


Acid Armor (Gastrodon)
Psycho Shift (Togekiss)
Spiky Shield (Togedemaru)
Sticky Web (Ribombee)
Infestation (Toxapex)
Life Dew (Lapras)


TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM29 Charm
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM36 Whirlpool
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM41 Helping Hand
TM45 Dive
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM55 Brine
TM56 U-turn
TM61 Guard Swap
TM70 Trick Room
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM83 Razor Shell
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR00 Swords Dance
TR01 Body Slam
TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR16 Waterfall
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR34 Future Sight
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR42 Hyper Voice
TR45 Muddy Water
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR83 Ally Switch
TR84 Scald
TR91 Venom Drench
TR92 Dazzling Gleam
TR98 Liquidation


As suggested, Toxic to level up over Captivate, Infestation stays in egg. Life Dew isn't consequential enough competitively to be disallowed. Body Press and Heavy Slam are pretty iffy in terms of adding new coverage, so I've decided against including them. The TM/TR additions all received good support in thread and generally don't impact much at all. Celebrate will stay in gen 7 for at least the time being with it's status as an event move.
 
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dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Liquidation
1 - Aqua Ring
1 - Rapid Spin
1 - Whirlpool
1 - Attract
1 - Pound
1 - Water Gun
1 - Growl
1 - Struggle Bug
11 - Charm
14 - Confusion
17 - Aqua Jet
22 - Heal Pulse
27 - Brine
32 - Rain Dance
34 - Liquidation
40 - U-turn
44 - Psychic
48 - Bug Buzz
56 - Toxic
60 - Hydro Pump
64 - Swords Dance
Egg - Acid Armor
Egg - Psycho Shift
Egg - Spiky Shield
Egg - Sticky Web
Egg - Infestation
Egg - Life Dew
TM/TR - Pin Missile
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Icy Wind
TM/TR - Charm
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Hail
TM/TR - Whirlpool
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Swift
TM/TR - Helping Hand
TM/TR - Dive
TM/TR - Icicle Spear
TM/TR - Brine
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Guard Swap
TM/TR - Trick Room
TM/TR - Wonder Room
TM/TR - Magic Room
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Razor Shell
TM/TR - Draining Kiss
TM/TR - Swords Dance
TM/TR - Body Slam
TM/TR - Hydro Pump
TM/TR - Surf
TM/TR - Ice Beam
TM/TR - Blizzard
TM/TR - Psychic
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Waterfall
TM/TR - Leech Life
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Future Sight
TM/TR - Trick
TM/TR - Skill Swap
TM/TR - Hyper Voice
TM/TR - Muddy Water
TM/TR - X-Scissor
TM/TR - Bug Buzz
TM/TR - Stealth Rock
TM/TR - Ally Switch
TM/TR - Scald
TM/TR - Venom Drench
TM/TR - Dazzling Gleam
TM/TR - Liquidation
 

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