Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP16 - Malaconda

cbrevan

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:malaconda: CAP16: Malaconda Generation 8 Update :malaconda:

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Malaconda update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Malaconda, please refer to this link for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until cbrevan makes their leading post.
 

cbrevan

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Hello people! I'm here to guide you through the Malaconda update thread. On this journey, we will take our favorite snake and edit its movepool to better match this generations flavor, trends, and precedents. Read the OP for more info on what exactly we'll be discussing.

Since Home means transferring past gen moves is a go, we're no longer having a removal discussion. Assume anything blue will be put into the transfer category if they aren't moved to the level-up or egg moves lists. This will help streamline the process greatly and I plan to close this thread quickly with that in mind.

As before, the movepool has been highlighted for ease of use. Refer to this post for the explanation behind Malaconda's level up movepool and other intricacies.

This is the color code for reading the movepool. I will be referring to these color codes throughout this thread.
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

- Follow Me
- Wrap
- Leer
Evolve: Rapid Spin
6 Vine Whip
10 Pursuit
15 Scary Face
20 Grass Knot
24 Sucker Punch
29 Slam
34 Leaf Blade
38 Glare
43 Crunch
48 Power Whip
52 Spiky Shield
57 Wring Out
62 Punishment

66 Solar Blade
Aromatherapy
Beat Up (Scraggy)
Feint (Tsareena)
Haze (Wooper->Feebas)
Ice Fang (Gyarados)
Night Slash (Diglett->Seedot)
Stun Spore (Oddish)
Poison Powder (Oddish)
Screech (Vibrava)
Sweet Scent (Bulbasaur)
Thunder Fang (Deino)
Bind
Foul Play
Giga Drain
Heal Bell
Iron Tail
Knock Off
Recycle

Seed Bomb
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spite
Synthesis
Worry Seed
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team

TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM53 Energy Ball
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM66 Payback
TM67 Retaliate
TM68 Giga Impact
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM86 Grass Knot
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM93 Wild Charge
TM95 Snarl
TM96 Nature Power
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide
Cut (Gen 5 / Gen 6 HM01)
Secret Power (ORAS TM94)
Strength (Gen 5 / Gen 6 HM04)

We have two topics to discuss in this thread. The first is the addition of any moves introduced in Gen 8, or moves that have seen a large increase in distribution this generation. The second topic will be what to do with the holes Pursuit, Wring Out, and Punishment have left in Malaconda's movepool. You're free to discuss either topic interchangeably, but keep in mind that additions are more important to discuss than an empty movepool slot.

As usual, there following considerations must be given to any move brought up as an addition.
1. The move has to follow both this generation's trends and fits Malaconda's overall flavor.
2. The move cannot be a significant buff to Malaconda. For the sake of this thread, a significant buff is any move that changes poor or neutral matchups in Malaconda's favor.

I plan to replace the level up slot based off user suggestions; if none are suggested I'll choose a suitable move from Malaconda's transfer list.

I plan to close this thread on Thursday, March 12. This gives us the five days to discuss potential additions. I'm putting this thread through its paces because Home's decided half of the discussion for us, and I don't want to delay any further with CAP 27 ongoing.
 
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I would like to suggest Apple Acid and Grav Apple as additions to Malaconda's movepool. They have very strong flavor, since Malaconda is an apple themed Pokémon. I recognize that Grav Apple, with its defense drop effect, has strong competitive implications, however Malaconda is slow and weak enough that I am not convinced it would allow it to reliably beat its counters. I suggest that Apple Acid replaces Wring Out while Grav Apple replaces Punishment.
 
I'm going to make the case for adding Nasty Plot. I know it's technically a competetively relevant move, but I wouldn't consider it a straight up buff to Malaconda since its Special Attack is terrible. Plus, it fits flavor-wise. Weather Ball is the same, having apt flavor justification due to being on almost every other weather setter, but not being competitively relevant since Malaconda's Special Attack is so ass.
 

G-Luke

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I do support the additions of Grav Apple, Nasty Plot and Weather Ball. The later two are very flavourful and have zero competitive implications due to Malaconda's crappy special attack. While Grav Apple can be seen as a minimal competitive addition, I think it is just a trade off versus Power Whip or Solar Blade. Id personally like it if Knock Off took Punishment's place in level up Movepool. Only other moves I can think to suggest are Breaking Swipe, Power Trip, Darkest Lariat and Parting Shot.
 
Grav Apple is definitely requested: the loss of Pursuit further decreases its viability, and Grav Apple's Defense Drop followed by Sucker Punch can slightly recreate a pursuit trap effect.

Jaw Lock: or just bypass Pursuit Trap and Actually trap. Decent Phys Dark STAB, with the questionable effect of forcing both Target and User to stay in battle. This fits with how Anaconda's hunt: they bite, then wrap around. Malaconda's poor quality prevents this from being broken, but can give it a niche for Glare, Jaw Lock, Grav Apple, Sucker Punch. Someone better competitively that me can probs point out the bit where it breaks previous match ups though.

Body Press: perfectly fitting for a snake to have this and matched due to its release to Snake likes: Sandaconda, Goodra and Onix all have access to this despite lack of STAB. The fluff is fitting for it also. Previously unheard of Fighting coverage is different, but how actually competitive or meta affecting that is I'm confident others can prove for me while I'm on mobile.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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To be honest I think either of the apple moves fit very well with Malaconda and its euphoric apple antics. I think Apple Acid fits best with it considering the Malaconda's Chemical Romance, but I also see no particular issue with Grav Apple and its defense drop, since that makes the assumption that it will actually be able to be in for a few turns against something. Honestly if we feel content about adding both I think it would be neat to do that. Also down with Nasty Plot and Weather Ball for the reasons already stated, mostly that SpA stat that it will never have time to properly boost while also having solid flavor in its malice and its weather implications, especially with Drought.

Power Trip should be fine and Darkest Lariat should be as well, but I sincerely urge caution in terms of Parting Shot and Breaking Swipe. Both of these moves do fit it well flavorfully, considering its malice and its long, serpentine body, but I am concerned about its competitive implications. Breaking Swipe does not add another coverage type due to Dragon Tail, but I am interested if the Attack drops will effect any specific matchups and cause it to fall outside scope. I think it will be fine, but this move does require a bit further investigation. I am slightly more worried about Parting Shot, as it does fill the same role of pivoting as U-turn, but I think for a defensive mon it may like the stat drops instead of the straight damage a bit more. I think this will also require further investigation.
 
I think that Obstruct would work fairly well for Malaconda in terms of flavor of it being a really sneaky snake looking to obstruct his enemies, and having a relatively mild competitive benefit on account of his less-than-stellar qualities (A glaring 4x weakness to bug comes to mind the most), so I think Obstruct should take Wring Out's place in the level up moves. apart from that, I echo other posters' sentiments on Grav Apple, Apple Acid, Nasty plot, and Jaw Lock, while having nothing to say on any of the other replacement moves.

BTW, cbrevan, weren't you about to close this thread weeks ago?
 
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cbrevan

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We are running on a different timeline for these final updates. As you can tell here we are going to be finishing all CAP updates TOMORROW (Friday) from 8am to midnight CST. Below is a list of every suggestion that has been made in this thread to the movepool in the OP. If you have more to suggest, please do them via post or (preferably) Discord.

>> Please join our Discord channel by clicking here. We'll be discussing these updates LIVE all day! <<

Below are the suggestions that have been made thus far in this thread. The parentheses represent the recommended move to remove in order to make move. Brackets represent breeding partners, while a strikethrough represents something that was discussed, but is vetoed by later discussion for being too competitively relevant. A '' symbolizes that it a bullet point that's it's a conditional change base on its header change becoming approved.

Suggested Movepool Movement:
Knock Off to Level UP (Punishment)

Suggested New Moves:
Apple Acid (Wring Out)
Grav Apple (Punishment)
Obstrusct (Wring Out)
Nasty Plot
Weather Ball
Jaw Lock
Body Press
Power Trip
Darkest Lartriat
Parting Shot
Breaking Swipe
 

cbrevan

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Malaconda has been finished with feedback from our discord!

We've chosen to add Parting Shot, Nasty Plot, Weather Ball, Breaking Swipe, and Throat Chop to Malaconda. Parting Shot has the most competitive potential but was found to be marginally better than U-turn, if not as or worse in varying situations. This was minor enough that it was allowed. Nasty Plot and Throat Chop are some excellent flavor moves for Malaconda's typing, Weather Ball goes well with Malaconda's abilities, and Breaking Swipe goes well with Malaconda's body type and Dragon egg group.

The changes to Malaconda's level up list are as follows: Payback added to level 10 (was TM/TR before), Foul Play to level 57 (was tutor before), and Parting Shot to level 62 as an entirely new move.

Onto what was disallowed, Grav Apple was found to be a game changer against bulkier mons compared to Power Whip and was therefore disallowed. Grav Apple, Obstruct, and Jaw Lock are all sig moves that had shaky flavor reasoning. Body Press was disallowed based on flavor precident; the only snake body types that get it are the Onix line, which are massive rock snakes. Power Trip was denied for not being a move with increased enough distrubution. Darkest Lariat references arms specifically, which Malaconda lacks.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in on Discord and posted in this thread!

Payback added to Level 10 LU
Foul Play added to Level 57 LU
Parting Shot to level 62 LU
Nasty Plot to TM/TR
Weather Ball to TM/TR
Breaking Swipe to TM/TR
Throat Chop to TM/TR
 
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Birkal

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Malaconda Changes:
- Rapid Spin was an Evo Move, so put a L1 copy at the top of the movepool as standard
- Follow Me is intended to be a Heart Scale move. That means the 4 moves after it need to be L1 - ergo change Vine Whip and Payback to L1

1 Rapid Spin
1 Follow Me
1 Wrap
1 Leer
1 Vine Whip
1 Payback
15 Scary Face
20 Grass Knot
24 Sucker Punch
29 Slam
34 Leaf Blade
38 Glare
43 Crunch
48 Power Whip
52 Spiky Shield
57 Foul Play
62 Parting Shot
66 Solar Blade
Evolve: Rapid Spin
 

Birkal

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Big thanks to Wulfanator72 for doing this. I'm basically just copy/pasting his work.

1 Rapid Spin
1 Follow Me
1 Wrap
1 Leer
1 Vine Whip
1 Payback
15 Scary Face
20 Grass Knot
24 Sucker Punch
29 Slam
34 Leaf Blade
38 Glare
43 Crunch
48 Power Whip
52 Spiky Shield
57 Foul Play
62 Parting Shot
66 Solar Blade
Evolve: Rapid Spin
Aromatherapy
Beat Up (Scraggy)
Feint (Tsareena)
Haze (Wooper->Feebas)
Ice Fang (Gyarados)
Night Slash (Diglett->Seedot)
Stun Spore (Oddish)
Poison Powder (Oddish)
Screech (Vibrava)
Sweet Scent (Bulbasaur)
Thunder Fang (Deino)
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM11 Solar Beam
TM12 Solar Blade
TM21 Rest
TM23 Thief
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM26 Scary Face
TM28 Giga Drain
TM31 Attract
TM34 Sunny Day
TM39 Façade
TM46 Weather Ball
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM76 Round
TM79 Retaliate
TM85 Snarl
TM97 Brutal Swing
TM99 Breaking Swipe
TR20 Substitute
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR31 Iron Tail
TR32 Crunch
TR37 Taunt
TR50 Leaf Blade
TR58 Dark Pulse
TR59 Seed Bomb
TR65 Energy Ball
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR72 Power Whip
TR77 Grass Knot
TR81 Foul Play
TR86 Wild Charge
TR95 Throat Chop
Bind
Confide
Cut
Double Team
Dragon Tail
Heal Bell
Knock Off
Nature Power
Recycle
Roar
Spite
Strength
Synthesis
Toxic
Worry Seed
 
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dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Rapid Spin
1 - Follow Me
1 - Wrap
1 - Leer
1 - Vine Whip
1 - Payback
15 - Scary Face
20 - Grass Knot
24 - Sucker Punch
29 - Slam
33 - Rapid Spin
34 - Leaf Blade
38 - Glare
43 - Crunch
48 - Power Whip
52 - Spiky Shield
57 - Foul Play
62 - Parting Shot
66 - Solar Blade
Egg - Aromatherapy
Egg - Feint
Egg - Haze
Egg - Night Slash
Egg - Stun Spore
Egg - Poison Powder
Egg - Sweet Scent
TM/TR - Screech
TM/TR - Beat Up
TM/TR - Ice Fang
TM/TR - Thunder Fang
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Solar Beam
TM/TR - Solar Blade
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Thief
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Scary Face
TM/TR - Giga Drain
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Façade
TM/TR - Weather Ball
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Snarl
TM/TR - Brutal Swing
TM/TR - Breaking Swipe
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Crunch
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Leaf Blade
TM/TR - Dark Pulse
TM/TR - Seed Bomb
TM/TR - Energy Ball
TM/TR - Nasty Plot
TM/TR - Power Whip
TM/TR - Grass Knot
TM/TR - Foul Play
TM/TR - Wild Charge
TM/TR - Throat Chop
 
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