Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP15 - Aurumoth

[cbrevan]

CAP15: Aurumoth ○ Generation 8 Update
​

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Aurumoth update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machines that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Aurumoth, please refer to this post for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until cbrevan makes their leading post.

 

[cbrevan]

Hello people! I'm here to guide you through the Aurumoth update thread. On this journey, we will take CAP's greatest golden bug and edit its movepool to better match this generations flavor, trends, and precedents. Read the OP for more info on what exactly we'll be discussing.

We're starting discussion by looking at Aurumoth's move removals. Apparently, this wasn't clear in my last thread so I'll be clearer here. I want us to move through this thread at the pace of one week, as the OP has alotted that length of time as our target goal. To ensure discussion is focused and to keep us from being sidetracked constantly by competitiveness debates, the first half of this thread will be used to examine the moves Aurumoth may lose, all of which are highlighted blue. When I feel like we've reached a suitable conclusion for those moves, I'll open this thread up to suggestions for move additions. Until then, please refer to the questions included below.

As before, the movepool has been highlighted for ease of use. Refer to this post for the explanation behind Aurumoth's level up movepool and other intricacies.

This is the color code for reading the movepool. I will be referring to these color codes throughout this thread.
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Arghonaut Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

Level Up

1- Dragon Dance
1- Tackle
1- String Shot
1- Silver Wind
1- Spotlight
1- Sunny Day
7- Silver Wind
14- Sunny Day
21- Heal Pulse
27- Ominous Wind
34- Will-O-Wisp
41- Final Gambit
47- Ancient Power
Ev.- Psychic Terrain
54- Wish
61- Healing Wish
67- Tail Glow

Egg Moves

Bug Buzz
Close Combat (This is a TR)
Counter (Now learned through the sequence of Falinks -> Dwebble -> Aurumoth)
Disable
Feint (Now learned from Trapinch)
Hydro Pump (This is a TR)
Megahorn (This is a TR)
Safeguard (This is a TM)
Wing Attack

TMs

TM03 Psyshock
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM27 Return
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM50 Overheat
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM56 Fling
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM68 Giga Impact
TM77 Psych Up
TM81 X-Scissor
TM83 Infestation
TM85 Dream Eater
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Surf
TM100 Confide

Tutor Moves

Bug Bite
Electroweb
Helping Hand
Icy Wind
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Recycle
Role Play
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Snore
Skill Swap
Trick
Water Pulse
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt

Old TMs

Ally Switch
Cut
Flash
Retaliate
Secret Power
Struggle Bug
Telekinesis

Things to note:

You're allowed to suggest replacement for level up slots as long as they are highlighted blue. Don't suggest new moves yet!

As it was pointed out earlier on Discord, Gen 8 movepools rarely have repeating moves in level up lists. This means the level 1 Silver Wind slot will most likely be removed if we don't add different moves to replace Silver Wind.

The only move of competitive importance that we're forced to cut is Tail Glow. While this is a major loss, the goal of this update is to bolster Aurumoth's flavor and not to recompense it for the loss of Tail Glow. I will be banning any move I think is too much on Aurumoth (this will likely be most competitive moves because of how overtuned Aurmoth is). The other competitive moves Aurumoth stands to lose are Toxic and Magic Coat, none of which have seen usage on Aurumoth as far as I know and are most likely minor losses.

Aurumoth has some old gen TMs! We only need to worry about Cut and Struggle Bug as everything else is either a TM/TR or has been cut entirely.

Aurumoth has almost all of its egg moves intact! The only ones we need to concern ourselves with are Disable and Wing Attack. Also note that Aurumoth's sole egg group is Bug.

Discussion questions:

1. Of the blue highlighted moves in Aurumoth's TM and Tutor lists, which moves standout as being worth preserving? Are any of these moves sufficiently flavorful to be transfered to egg moves (if a parent exists) or the level up list?

2. Of the two egg moves we need to discuss, is either move flavorful enough to preserve? Note that this means adding these moves to the level up list, as legal parents for them don't exist.

3. Of the past-gen TM moves, is either Cut or Hone Claws flavorful enough to preserve? Does Aurumoth even have claws? Help me answer this important question.

 

[Wulfanator]

1) Of the blue TMs, the only moves that seemed worth keep were Double Team, Psych Up, Infestation, and Dream Eater.

Double Team

Looking at Double Team, the description of the move talks about illusions and creating copies of the user. This would play into Aurumoth's old ability Illusion. A few bugs learn it through level up. 2 of which appear in SWSH: Ninjask and Accelgor. Otherwise, the only other bug that obtains it is Joltik through breeding.

Ninjask has it as an Evo and level 1 move
Accelgor has it as a level 1 move

Since we have 2 missing level 1 moveslots, it could easily replace one. A potential Evo move could work if desired too. If better ideas arise, it could be dumped in breed moves for convenience.

Psych Up

Psych Up seemed like a flavorful move to add but there are no solid parallels to pull from. This should probably be cut since most Psych Up mons are field or human-like.

The earliest level a psychic-type learns this move this gen is 20 (Oranguru). We have a missing level up move at 27. It could fit there if desired, but a damaging move should probably occupy that slot since Auru's level up movepool has more status moves.

Infestation

Frosmoth learns infestation at level 8. Aurumoth is missing a move at level 7. It's a bug move that only a few pokemon know this gen (mostly bugs)

Dream Eater

Dream Eater is typically learned at a higher level (48 to 70). No bugs can learn it by level up or breeding this gen, but many psychic-types learn it. However, most pokemon that know dream eater also learn hypnosis or a different sleep move. The only pokemon that knows DE but not a sleep inducing move is Oranguru. Auru is missing a level up move at 67. It would be a good fit for it, but I think hypnosis or a sleep inducing move would also have to be added to justify learning it in level up.

Nothing in tutor moves seemed worth preserving

2) Of the 2 egg moves, Disable could be kept as it is typically a level 1 move and would fill 1 of the 2 missing level 1 slots. Unfortunately, no bug-types learn it this gen and only a small amount of psychic-types learn it (not enough to establish a connection). This potentially leans closer to cut than keep for that reason.

3) HM01 both of 'em. They ain't worth keeping

 

[Menshay]

Struggle Bug could also replace Silver Wind.
As Falinks cannot breed, the actual chain for Counter would be Sudowoodo -> Dwebble.

 

[Deck Knight]

Given our level-up structure:

Struggle Bug over Silver Wind, it's a nice basic Bug move that I can see Cupra using very early on.
Double Team over Spotlight, for the reasons Wulfanator mentioned. Good reference to Illusion, proper for bugs.
Wing Attack at Level 27, moved from Egg Moves. It's weird Aurumoth has such limited physical attacks in its level-up pool, and that's already an off-coverage slot.
Nasty Plot at Level 67. It's directly inferior to Tail Glow, which no longer exists. Technically it's "new" but it is a direct replacement that is the same effect as Tail Glow originally had in Generation 5.

I don't think Aurumoth needs anything new from TMs/TRs. Maybe Hurricane, it's very riksy and other bugs get it.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Considering Aurumoth already gets Megahorn, I don't think it'll be overwhelming if it got First Impression as an egg move. It can breed with Flygon or Durant to get it, and I agree with the above posts, replace Spotlight with Double Team, and Nasty Plot can replace Tail Glow (Tail Glow isn't removed from the game though). Struggle Bug can replace Silver Wind in the Level 7 slot and the Level 1 slot can just be removed since Gen 8 level up pools completely removed duplicate moves unless if it's a Level 1 + Evolution one

And my list for potential TMs and TRs (this is the fun stuff!) New moves are in bold

TMs

TM10: Magical Leaf
TM11: Solar Beam
TM12: Solar Blade
TM17: Light Screen
TM18: Reflect
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM27: Icy Wind
TM30: Steel Wing
TM31: Attract
TM33: Rain Dance
TM34: Sunny Day
TM35: Hail
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM40: Swift
TM41: Helping Hand
TM44: Imprison
TM59: Fling
TM71: Wonder Room
TM72: Magic Room
TM76: Round
TM79: Retaliate
TM83: Electroweb
TM91: Psychic Terrain
TM95: Air Slash

TRs

TR03: Hydro Pump
TR04: Surf
TR05: Ice Beam
TR06: Blizzard
TR08: Thunderbolt
TR09: Thunder
TR11: Psychic
TR20: Substitute
TR25: Psyshock
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR28: Megahorn
TR33: Shadow Ball
TR38: Trick
TR40: Skill Swap
TR43: Overheat
TR44: Cosmic Power
TR51: Dragon Dance
TR53: Close Combat
TR60: X-Scissor
TR61: Bug Buzz
TR64: Focus Blast
TR68: Nasty Plot
TR69: Zen Headbutt
TR82: Stored Power
TR83: Ally Switch
TR96: Pollen Puff
TR97: Psychic Fangs

 

[cbrevan]

Based off the feedback in this thread, Aurumoth will retain Struggle Bug and Double Team and they will be moved into Aurumoth's level up list as people have suggested. There were other moves brought up but none of them have seen any further discussion. Since no consensus can be formed on them, I'm leaving them open for further discussion. If those moves fail to receive more discussion, I plan on cutting them from Aurumoth's movepool.

I'm also opening up this thread to addition discussion. Addition discussion is rather simple; you nominate any eligible move as defined in the OP and provide reasoning based around its flavor to Aurumoth and Gen 8 trends.

1. What newly introduced move or TM or TR would be flavorful for Aurumoth to gain? How would this move interact with Aurumoth's flavor? Are there any Gen 8 trends that supports the addition of said move? If the move can be used competitively, is there any worry of the move bring overbearing on Aurumoth?



Unrelated to the discussion question, but I do want to reply to some of the move additions already brought up. First Impression is banned because Aurumoth does not need the strongest priority move in the game on top of it's already expansive movepool. Nasty Plot is up for discussion but I'd like to see some more discussion on the competitive impact of the move.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Nasty Plot is literally a worse Tail Glow and not having a way to boost its Special Attack would hurt its viability, so Nasty Plot should replace Tail Glow, and my previous post shows my proposed new moves that it could get, which are bolded

 

[Wulfanator]

I agree that moth should aquire Nasty Plot. A wide variety of Pokemon have access to the move in SWSH. There are plenty of psychic-types that have the move via TR: Riachu-A, Mr.Mime, Swoobat, Gothitelle, Meowstic, Oranguru.

Competitively, it is inferior tail glow. I think the potential controversy is how you look at the situation. With TG snapped, Aurumoth has nothing and gaining NP would be a competitive buff. If TG were still in the game, its a lesser move compared to other options it would already have. It is a step down from where Moth previously was, but a step up only because TG was HM01ed

 

[cbrevan]

I plan on closing this thread out over the weekend. As it stands, the only move I'm considering adding to Aurumoth's movepool is Nasty Plot.

If you have anything else to say or know of another move you want to see added or want to discuss Nasty Plot further, your window of opportunity is closing.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I plan on closing this thread out over the weekend. As it stands, the only move I'm considering adding to Aurumoth's movepool is Nasty Plot.

If you have anything else to say or know of another move you want to see added or want to discuss Nasty Plot further, your window of opportunity is closing.

So are the other moves I bolded not allowed then? Cause I feel those moves fit its theme

 

[cbrevan]

So are the other moves I bolded not allowed then? Cause I feel those moves fit its theme

The moves you listed are allowed for discussion because they are Gen 8 TMs and TRs. If they didn't receive new distribution this generation or if I had banned them for being overly competitive, then they would not be allowed.

I think what you're trying to ask is if they have been approved to be on Aurumoth's learn set. The moves you proposed are not yet approved because they have not met enough of an intelligent community consensus for me to approve them.

The intelligent community consensus, often abbreviated as ICC, can be broken down to mean the consensus of a topic as represented by the knowledgeable members of the community, often shown through well constructed posts that clearly indicate their reasoning and logic for whatever they are arguing for. The moves you proposed failed to meet the ICC because a single idea backed by one individual cannot be a consensus and it would be a stretch to call a list lacking any sort of reasoning behind it a well constructed post.

In the future, I suggest you provide reasoning as to why any move you proposed should be included in Aurumoth's movepool. Myself and others should not have to guess the reasoning behind your suggestions, even if they seem straight forward to you. Furthermore, it's hard for anyone to respond to your ideas if they have to guess what your reasoning is, which means your proposals are less likely to see enough feedback to form a consensus.

Hopefully this answers your question and clears up any other question you have about these updates.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Ok, so I believe Aurumoth can have Magical Leaf and Solar Blade because for one, it has Solar Beam and for two, I noticed in its older movepools that it got odd physical moves that a moth Pokémon wouldn't really get so I felt those two moves fit its concept. Swift is a basic move that a couple of Psychic-types get, and it's a weak overall move. Lots of Psychic-types get Imprison as well so I included that as well. Frosmoth, Volcarona and Venomoth get Air Slash so it just made sense for this to have it.

All Psychic-types get Stored Power now so this is just for its typing purposes that I added it. Cosmic Power was a 50/50 for me. I included it because of its typing again. I put in Psychic Fangs because moths can pinch you by biting on you, and it's a Psychic-type move so it fit its concept. Pollen Puff is there too because it's just an alternative Bug-type move that it can use. Hopefully this is good enough

 

[Jho]

Nasty Plot: Whilst technically a competitive move I dont think it alters Aurumoth's c&c drastically enough to not be used as a replacement to Tail Glow. A whole load of Psychic-types get it via TR as well, so I dont see an issue with this.

Magical leaf & Solar Blade: Only one Bug-type learns Magical leaf and none learn Solar Blade so I don't really see a flavour argument here. The justification that Aurumoth has random moves in its movepool isn't really coherent because whilst Moth does have an extremely bloated movepool that's not really an excuse to make it more so. These just seem like random additions for the sake of it.

Imprison: Ok, surprisingly, this has a competitive use. Imprison would allow Aurumoth to wall Rotom-H. I think it could be niche enough to actually see use but I would er on the side of caution where Aurumoth is concerned.

Stored Power: Not all Psychic-types actually get this, the Bronzong and Meowstic lines, for example, do not. I also think its extremley possible that this is ran with the amount of boosting moves that Aurumoth has - Dragon Dance + Tail Glow saw fringe usage last generation for example, with Nasty Plot as a possible replacement I see no reason why this wouldn't be used. Cosmic Power on top of that would also be an issue. I'd be against adding either of these

Psychic Fangs: Indifferent here, Aurumoth has Bug Bite but no other bite or fang based moves. You could argue Bug Bite gives enough reason but Psychic Fangs would give it a new best physical Psychic STAB option I guess

Pollen Puff: Pretty much everything that gets this (outside of mew) is flower / pollen-based. Frostmoth, for example, doesn't get it. I don't think there's enough reason to give it this when it has a very small learn pool which moth doesn't really fit into anyway.

Im almost entirely indifferent on the blue moves Aurumoth stands to lose, only really thinking it should definitely lose Toxic, very few Bug-types have it and no Psychic-types do. The rest are fairly inconsequential imo.

In terms of new additions, there isnt a whole lot that I think Aurumoth needs to gain from a flavour standpoint, I think Metronome could be a fine addition as a fair few Psychic-types get it.

 

[Wulfanator]

I'd have to disagree with the imprison argument. It is too specific a match up to be overly competitive. The way it is being described comes across as the magnet rise Zone set for Libra. Moth would rather use the moveslots for something else.

 

[Mova]

I don't have much to say for Aurumoth, other than that I agree with not giving Aurumoth much, as its movepool is already pretty bloated. I can see it getting Nasty Plot in Tail Glow's spot, as it's generally outclassed by what we had earlier.

 

[cbrevan]

Discussion has winded down heavily, so I'm closing this thread.

As for the addition discussion, Nasty Plot will be added due to the support people have shown for it in the thread and the lack of concern of it breaking Aurumoth due to its previous access to Tail Glow. Imprison will also be added due to the flavor argument presented for it and multiple posts voicing support for the move.

Magical Leaf, Solar Blade, and Pollen Puff are not be added due to the weak flavor arguments presented for them, as Jho stated in his post.

Stored Power, Cosmic Power, and Psychic Fang will be denied on the grounds of potentially skewing matchups or being unneccessary alongside weak flavor justification. Stored Power in conjunction with Nasty Plot, Weak Armor, and the other ways Aurumoth has to boost its stats is too much of a risk to allow for Aurumoth. Cosmic Power has slight competitive implications, which combined with the weak support it had, made me believe we're better off without it. Psychic Fang is being denied for being a straight upgrade to Zen Headbutt, trading an unreliable flinch chance for higher base damage and 100% accuracy. Aurumoth also lost Bug Bite so any flavor justification for it was rendered moot.

Now, to summarize Aurumoth's changes:

Aurumoth will lose Silver Wind, Spotlight, Ominous Wind, Tail Glow, Hidden Power, Return, Frustration, Signal Beam, Flash, Secret Power, and Telekinesis due to these moves being unavailable in-game.

Aurumoth will lose Disable, Wing Attack, Toxic, Echoed Voice, Psych Up, Infestation, Dream Eater, Swagger, Confide, Bug Bite, Magic Coat, Recycle, Role Play, Shock Wave, Water Pulse, and Cut due to them being exclusive to earlier generations.

Struggle Bug will be added to Aurumoth's level-up list in the level 7 slot. Double Team will be added in the level 1 slot. Imprison will be added in the level 27 slot and TM list. Nasty Plot will be added in the level 67 slot and TM list.

Here is Aurumoth's updated movepool.

Level Up

1- Dragon Dance
1- Tackle
1- String Shot
1- Double Team
1- Struggle Bug
14- Sunny Day
21- Heal Pulse
27- Imprison
34- Will-O-Wisp
41- Final Gambit
47- Ancient Power
Ev.- Psychic Terrain
54- Wish
61- Healing Wish
67- Nasty Plot

Egg Moves

Counter (Now learned through the sequence of Sudowoodo -> Dwebble -> Aurumoth)
Feint (Now learned from Trapinch)

TMs

TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM11 Solar Beam
TM17 Light Screen
TM18 Reflect
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM30 Steel Wing
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM34 Sunny Day
TM35 Hail
TM38 Will-O-Wisp
TM39 Facade
TM41 Helping Hand
TM44 Imprison
TM59 Fling
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM79 Retaliate
TM82 Electroweb

TR Moves

TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR08 Thunderbolt
TR09 Thunder
TR11 Psychic
TR20 Substitute
TR25 Psyshock
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR28 Megahorn
TR33 Shadow Ball
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR43 Overheat
TR51 Dragon Dance
TR53 Close Combat
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR64 Focus Blast
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR69 Zen Headbutt
TR83 Ally Switch

Thank you to everyone who posted and helped make this update possible!

 

[dhelmise]

1 - Dragon Dance
1 - Tackle
1 - String Shot
1 - Double Team
1 - Struggle Bug
14 - Sunny Day
21 - Heal Pulse
27 - Imprison
34 - Will-O-Wisp
41 - Final Gambit
47 - Ancient Power
50 - Psychic Terrain
54 - Wish
61 - Healing Wish
67 - Nasty Plot
Egg - Counter
Egg - Feint
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Solar Beam
TM/TR - Light Screen
TM/TR - Reflect
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Icy Wind
TM/TR - Steel Wing
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Hail
TM/TR - Will-O-Wisp
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Helping Hand
TM/TR - Imprison
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Wonder Room
TM/TR - Magic Room
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Electroweb
TM/TR - Hydro Pump
TM/TR - Surf
TM/TR - Ice Beam
TM/TR - Blizzard
TM/TR - Thunderbolt
TM/TR - Thunder
TM/TR - Psychic
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Psyshock
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Megahorn
TM/TR - Shadow Ball
TM/TR - Trick
TM/TR - Skill Swap
TM/TR - Overheat
TM/TR - Dragon Dance
TM/TR - Close Combat
TM/TR - X-Scissor
TM/TR - Bug Buzz
TM/TR - Focus Blast
TM/TR - Nasty Plot
TM/TR - Zen Headbutt
TM/TR - Ally Switch