Focus Sash Jynx

Jynx @ Focus Sash
- Counter
- Lovely Kiss
- Ice Beam/Blizzard
- filler

Hasty/Timid - 252 Speed, 252 Special Attack, 4 anywhere you want

This set wasn't listed in any way - set or other options - and while I haven't tested it yet it's the same viability of Counter/Focus Sash Gengar. The crucial differences are a slightly more accurate sleeping move and the immunity to Hail. I don't think I need to explain a lot about Counter/Focus Sash on a Pokemon with 65 HP and 35 Defense, for the most part it should be clear that Weavile, Metagross and other typical frail Psychic counters will not be pleased.

The great thing is that besides Countering, Jynx can still put something to sleep, either before or after you pulled it off.

Everything else should need no explaining at all. If you're using Jynx in Hailstorm, Blizzard is the obvious move, otherwise you'll want Ice Beam. Fillers could be anything...to prevent slasheritis I left them out the main set.
- Grass Knot/Energy Ball for waters. On IRC, we came to the conclusion Grass Knot does more to about anything you'd want to use it on except Vaporeon and Starmie.
- Hidden Power Fighting/Focus Blast works on Weavile and Tyranitar period, OHKOs the former...too bad HP Fighting Jynx has a shot at NOT 2HKOing max HP Tyranitar. The fucker is that strong. >:O These things work on Heatran as well, but not as well as...
- Hidden Power Ground. And that's about where its usefulness ends, except "watch out Metagross". There's also Hidden Power Fire for other misc Steels, I guess.
- Protect allows you to scout to see whether it's smarter to Counter, attack or Lovely Kiss.
- Fake Out may seem very laughable outside of 2v2 environment, but it is Jynx' only shot at getting rid of opposing Focus Sashes before needing her own.

Discuss please. I think it seems viable for a dex entry at least. Have fun testing it I say.
 
Actually, I have thought of this and tried it out. I tried the counter/lovely kiss/ice beam/protect set and the counter/lovely kiss/ice beam/grass knot set. If I remember correctly, it had more success using the grass knot set. Beware of entry hazards though, especially stealth rock, it totally ruins and hurts her 65 base hp.
 
Never liked the concept of this for Gengar/Jynx considering sometimes the opponent has a Pokemon out that COULD ko it, but is fearing sleep too much that it'll switch to its designated sleep taker etc, and in turn could ruin the suprise.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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i kinda agree with aeroblacktyl. its not much use use the suprise is out, but i would say its worth a mention in the analisys.

also mekkah you have 8,881 posts, what are you going to do for your 8,888th post?
 
Taunt could deserve an honorable mention in the filler spot, just to prevent Status and the opponent setting up once you sleep a guy.
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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To start this discussion out on the right foot I see no better place to look than at the 15 most popular leads currently.

  • Gyarados (13090 leads)
  • Gengar (12669 leads)
  • Bronzong (11696 leads)
  • Tyranitar (10024 leads)
  • Salamence (9885 leads)
  • Hippowdon (8437 leads)
  • Ninjask (6880 leads)
  • Yanmega (6196 leads)
  • Abomasnow (6103 leads)
  • Weavile (5876 leads)
  • Metagross (5798 leads)
  • Roserade (5767 leads)
  • Infernape (5637 leads)
  • Jolteon (5636 leads)
  • Breloom (4933 leads)
1. Gyarados isn't staying in, I don't think. If it is, I'd think it'd be more inclined to Dragon Dance than attack straight up, even though DDing first turn isn't really the best way to start a battle—I would hope that Gyarados is so popular as a lead because of Intimidate. This is a stay and free LK.

2. Gengar is a jerk and makes a case for Protect on Jynx as the filler attack. If it wants to stay in it's either going to Shadow Ball or use Hypnosis, neither of which Jynx likes. Neither one really tip Gengar's hand to whether or not it carries a Focus Sash, but what else can you do? Psychic sucks as a filler attack and even Fake Out won't work since Gengar is a Ghost type. Jynx may be better off switching and having a better filler attack, which we'll try to pinpoint going down the list of other popular leads.

3. Bronzong is a loser and should be kissed by a REAL man's Psychic type, or something. Stay in and LK—Jynx rules and Bronzong "can't do anything", which is usually a silly thing to say but in this case indicates that Lovely Kiss is a great move that gives Jynx the advantage over a slower pokemon. Yes, the threat of Gyro Ball is there, but I would think that Bronzong is either going to stay in and use Hypnosis or switch out, which is fine because whatever is coming in is likely going to be put to sleep (unless it's Honchkrow oh no).

4. Tyranitar. Fun matchup, huh? You don't really want to switch because the threat of Pursuit looms as always, but you aren't even assured to OHKO with Focus Blast at 329 SpA, which does 93-111% to 342HP/354SpD (Sandstorm boost) and 79-94% to 404HP variants, assuming it hits with its crappy accuracy. I'd suggest staying in to LK, because 75% is better than nothing (or whatever unfavorable percentage there is of FB killing a Tyra that has to have 342HP [it's around 42% but Tyra could have 404HP so yeah]). You should probably have a weather changer on your team to support Jynx later in the battle, ideally Abomasnow.

5. Salamence. Easiest stay and LK in the world. You may be tempted to Ice Beam, and I don't advise against it really, but I would think that most smart battlers aren't leaving a Salamence in on a fast, STAB Ice Beam. If you do decide to IB, you don't care if Weavile or Blissey comes in, because you have a Focus Sash and Counter or can just switch out of Blissey with your Sash intact.

6. Hippowdon actually isn't guaranteed to be OHKOed by a 329 SpA STAB Ice Beam (it does 88-105% to 420HP/180SpD), but I think it'd be crazy to stay in. Your Sash, however, would be ruined if YOU stayed in, unless for some reason they decide to switch to Abomasnow, which is coincidentally what I would suggest you yourself both have on your team and do in this Jynx-Hippo lead matchup. If you don't have one you should have a weather changer regardless.

7. Ninjask you may want to stay in and Ice Beam on, cause if they're smart they are going to pass to a Smeargle that is virtually never fainted by a 329 SpA STAB IB (it does 85.03-100.32% to 314HP/126SpD) and that is going to Spore. But Smeargle won't be able to Belly Drum or Sub really do anything that it normally does that allows Baton Pass teams to be so effective.

It really depends on what kind of BP team they have, but standing tall and proud and Ice Beaming like a black woman of dignity and poise and um superpowers is the way to deal with lead Ninjask. It will die if it stays in to X-Scissor or something if it doesn't have a Sash of its own, and if it is Sashed, it will likely Swords Dance first turn, then pass second turn which you can't really do anything about...until they try to pass to a physical attacker that you will promptly Counter. (unless they pass to Tyranitar which actually isn't that bad an idea if you think about it haha)

8. Yanmega is going to Protect and then it *should* use Bug Buzz after its speed boost, which will OHKO Jynx (or think it's going to, not knowing about her Sash) instead of using Hypnosis, but that's the old prediction debate coming up again. I would think that if you stay in to IB as it Protects, it would be much more inclined to use Bug Buzz and not Hypnosis the next turn, though. If you want to trade your Sash for a kill on Yanmega you can do that, but I would just switch to a Yanmega counter instead of trading (because for all you know it's using a Sash too, as is recommended in its analysis).

9. Abomasnow has no real business staying in on you, so stay in and use LK. Even if you had Blizzard over Ice Beam there is no way you'd OHKO Abomasnow's decent defenses even if it stayed in. More importantly, an opponent using Abomasnow likely has some more Ice pokemon up his or her sleeve that benefit from the Hail, so a case for either HP Fire or Focus Blast can be made in the filler spot, though if you go with Focus Blast you may still want to use Lovely Kiss not only for the 5% better accuracy in hitting Abomasnow but because even a 329 SpA Focus Blast doesn't OHKO the standard 311HP/206SpD guaranteed (88-104%).

10. Weavile goes straight to hell with a Sashed Counter, and is likely the pokemon most likely to fall into this trap. Stay in and Counter every day of the week. If it gets cute and tries to Swords Dance, you can safely suspect a Sash of its own and use HP Fire or Focus Blast (case for either as fillers) or turn two. While Focus Blast blast has that unattractive 70% accuracy, it has a great shot of taking Weavile down to at least 1HP as it SDes again, afraid you will Counter, doing 97-115% to 272HP/206SpD.

HP Fire only does 57-67%, which of course is the same "guaranteed exactly 2HKO" if Weavile has a Sash which makes a better case for HP Fire but not all Weavile will have a Sash. If it has a CB, it's staying in and will die Turn to your counter. If it has Expert Belt, it's dying turn one to your Counter or SDing turn one to very likely SD turn two again (or even switching, realizing Jynx probably has a Sash), which makes a great case for Focus Blast to kill Weavile because even if it attacks you second turn, if you use HP Fire you are never killing it without a CH, both of your Sashes will be gone, and it will have the upper hand it assumed it did before Turn 1. And finally, if it has Life Orb or Lum Berry, it's the same as above with Expert Belt which makes a final case for Focus Blast as the filler.

11. Metagross is a jerk so stay in and Counter it. It can Agility or whatever all it wants—you're not switching out, ever. It's either going to Pursuit or use MM, but you really don't care cause you can Counter until it's afraid to Pursuit, at which point you can just switch out in like Turn 4 or 5, or even put it to sleep if you're balla enough. Pursuit isn't very common on non-CB sets so I wouldn't worry about falling to supreme prediction if they guess which turn you're actually going to do something besides Counter. Case for HP Fire in the filler slot, though most of the time this isn't even a 2HKO (does exactly 50% max to 364HP/216SpD from 329 SpA) so it'd be better used later in the battle rather than in an attempt to 2HKO Metagross straight up.

12. Roserade, lol. Just as in the case of Salamence, stay in and LK, or Ice Beam if you think they'll stay in. This scenario is a little bit different because Scarf Roserade is actually a viable lead compared to Scarf Salamence (don't use this btw please =/), and this makes a case for Protect as the filler attack—if they actually stay in to use Sleep Powder (the only thing a Roserade would do if it actually were ballsy enough to stay in), you can safely assume that it is Scarfed, since Jynx's 95 Base Speed conveniently tops the 90 Base Speed of Roserade.

13. Infernape screams switch, case closed. Don't even attempt to get cute, cause they sure won't.

14. Jolteon also compels you to switch, since it's either going to Sub or Thunder Wave.

15." Breloom is uber" unless it's up against the awesomeness that is Jynx. Treat this like you would Salamence and stay in and Lovely Kiss. Even if they have Mach Punch it's only doing 70% max so whatever.


So, if we tally up the cases for the filler attack, we pretty much have a three-way tie at two apiece for Protect, HP Fire and Focus Blast. This isn't taking into account the matchups that will take place, though, and besides, there's no reason not to expand the relatively small sample size to arrive at a better filler. So, after the first 15, we have:

  • Crobat (4653 leads), Protect I guess but it's using Hypnosis probably
  • Ambipom (4619 leads) Protect to fuck up Fake Out
  • Swampert (4509 leads) doesn't matter
  • Azelf (4370 leads) Protect I guess
  • Forretress (4112 leads) HP Fire, if it doesn't switch (it should but whatever) it would love to either Gyro Ball expecting you to switch or whatever since it resists IB
  • Zapdos (3617 leads) Protect I guess
  • Togekiss (3556 leads) Protect to scout T-Wave
  • Staraptor (3523 leads) doesn't matter
  • Porygonz (2944 leads) Protect to see if it's ballsy enough to stay in, indicating a possibly Scarf
  • Deoxys-e (2909 leads) Protect I guess, you should probably switch
  • Aerodactyl (2719 leads) doesn't matter
  • Gliscor (2678 leads) doesn't matter
  • Garchomp (2569 leads) Protect if anything to increase chance of confusion after Outrage I guess
  • Heracross (2263 leads) Protect, will very likely tell you if Banded or Scarfed
  • Heatran (2125 leads) Protect again, similar to the above it will likely tell you if Speced or Scarfed
That really has it leaning towards Protect. HP Fire or Focus Blast would likely be better moves if you want more mileage out of Jynx herself after the initial matchup, but as for as the 30 most popular leads are concerned, Protect is the way to go.

Last, I'll remind you all of the awesomeness that is Forewarn: it will let you know your foe's highest Base Power attack. This is very welcome for a proposed lead, as it will allow Jynx's to help out teammates throughout the battle. If Jynx is Forewarned of Tyranitar's Stone Edge, ithe team knows not to fear Boah. If Forewarned of Earthquake on Salamence, the team can expect a largely physical variant. Et cetera...I think I'm done with my wall of words now, thanks Mekkah.
 
4. Tyranitar. Fun matchup, huh? You don't really want to switch because the threat of Pursuit looms as always, but you aren't even assured to OHKO with Focus Blast at 329 SpA, which does 93-111% to 342HP/354SpD (Sandstorm boost) and 79-94% to 404HP variants, assuming it hits with its crappy accuracy. I'd suggest staying in to LK, because 75% is better than nothing (or whatever unfavorable percentage there is of FB killing a Tyra that has to have 342HP [it's around 42% but Tyra could have 404HP so yeah]). You should probably have a weather changer on your team to support Jynx later in the battle, ideally Abomasnow.
I think this is probably Focus Sash Jynx's worst match-up. If you switch, you run the very real risk of dying to Pursuit, but if you stay-in and LK your FS gets ruined. This is probably the best answer to lead Jynx (even though you risk tar getting put to sleep) and I think is popular enough to warrant Jynx not be the lead pokemon.

Although its really not so bad cause you only lose if Tar has Pursuit (and uses it). Plus, most people don't like it when their Tyranitars are sleepy. lol, I guess my point is somewhat moot then.
 
Imo, Jynx's defense is so low that it doesn't even need Hasty, and might be able to survive some really weak physical attacks (i.e. Togekiss Body Slam.)
Also, does Forewarn for Jynx work like Magic Guard does for Clefable, in that the ability might change upon evolution in D/P? (I would assume it does.)
I might breed one of these.
 

Eiganjo

So who did buy all the stroopwafels?
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thing is with ttar, and jynx defense, countersash would be nice, only for it to die the same turn anyways, if it had pursuit or does not have it, you die anyway in the end unless you manage to sleep it ^^. But im guessing Protect is the filler of choice for this set.

The only thng this set suffers from are spikes and the like and sandstorm, otherwise its decent enough to pull off, although it might be hard to do in the OU environment
 

obi

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Pursuit won't kill Jynx. Focus Sash will activate to save you.

Unless Pursuit bypasses Focus Sash, which would make this the first I've heard of that.

I disagree with you, Jump, when you say that switching Pokemon mean you need to Lovely Kiss. I'd rather nail them with Ice Beam / filler, because I know I personally switch my sleep absorber into Jynx for fear of Lovely Kiss.
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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Pursuit won't kill Jynx. Focus Sash will activate to save you.

Unless Pursuit bypasses Focus Sash, which would make this the first I've heard of that.

I disagree with you, Jump, when you say that switching Pokemon mean you need to Lovely Kiss. I'd rather nail them with Ice Beam / filler, because I know I personally switch my sleep absorber into Jynx for fear of Lovely Kiss.
Whatever your sleep absorber is, it's probably not going to mind any of Jynx's attacks anyway for the same reason you disagree with me, certainly not Ice Beam (unless you would actually switch something like Skarmory into Jynx from your Salamence/Breloom, 100% sure it's going to use LK). I would argue that since we're talking about the very first turn, you don't want to tip your hand too much anyway, which a non-Protect filler attack would more than IB or LK.

And besides, again, we're talking about a Jynx that is leading off, which when we run down the list of the 30 most popular leads is better aided by Protect as the filler than a Hidden Power or Focus Blast. So if you disagree with me on that count that's fine albeit a separate issue, but I believe I've objectively laid out why Protect is the strongest filler for a leadoff, Counter Sash Jynx.
 
Wow, thanks for weighing in both here and on IRC, Jump. :)

I think whether you should Ice Beam or Lovely Kiss depends on
- whether you think your opponent is using a sleep absorber and
- what the chance is this sleep absorber would like to eat an Ice Beam

In Advance, Zapdos was by far the most popular Sleep Talker and it always got 2HKOed by a Jynx Ice Beam. However, as it is you have about infinite options for Sleep Talkers, but overall from what I've seen most people do not really have a very proper Sleep Talker at all, and Insomnia/Early Bird/etc Pokemon are very scarce. Plus, Lovely Kissing a Sleep Talker is still better than never Lovely Kissing at all, since you are still reducing their effective attacking power (because no matter how inclined a Sleep Talker is to switch in, fact remains that whether they do anything or not is now dependant on chance rather than choice is a good thing for you).

I'd love to say this thing can do more than lead, because as you can see by Jumpman's analysis very few things Counter is actually helpful for (Weavile and Metagross). However, for it to work later on you'd need constant Rapid Spinning and a free switch-in, which is already quite some investment for one Pokemon getting one kill with it, imo. For weather, not leading with Jynx is actually better in that regard because you can try and gain control of the weather before Jynx comes in play, perhaps Dugtrize their Tyranitar and then go to Abomasnow or whatever. A leading Jynx against Hippo or Tyranitar will always have to switch in order not to make the whole idea useless.

Anyway, I guess when I get around to it I can add this to the CMS.
 
Nice thread. I do run my Jynx with a Fous Sash and Counter, and Grass knot for great coverage. Rapes all Weaviles she sees
 
However, for it to work later on you'd need constant Rapid Spinning and a free switch-in, which is already quite some investment for one Pokemon getting one kill with it, imo.
That's the main problem really, if it's forced out, it will have tremendous trouble getting back in. It is good as a suprise pokémon, but beyond that it is a liability to your team.
 

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