You've had more than enough time to respond to the post on the previous page. Why didn't you do it before now? You've even posted a couple times since then...
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NOC Fallout New Vegas NOC [GAME OVER - Wastelanders Win]
- Thread starter More Cowbell
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Again, if that crap you bolded is the KEY parts, then what is even the point? You're not gonna convince me to put an effort into refuting that post when you didn't even finish it in the first place. Cut and run Celever. When the going gets hot, the hot "go on vacation".
And now you're relentlessly badgering Mithril? Lol, now who's drowning?
You're still drowning. Your desperation is obvious through your exaggeration of every point you try to make. Two posts is relentless badgering now, according to von.
so you ignore him until he starts suspecting ur mafia? k. thanks for confirming that your case is based off of bias. only when it's convenient to frame celever as mafia do you do so.
at this point you've said so many things in such a short period of time that i don't know what to think. he can be mafia. i don't think he is. what's your point? i'm not lynching celever because i don't think he's mafia based on actions that occured within this game (i considered it). you don't want to lynch me because you think i'm a bad player based on actions that did not occur within this game
Hold on hold on hold on. This was in von's response to my bolded parts:
von says that I have "admitted to putting personal feelings ahead of winning". This isn't true, but von wouldn't know that because he's only read the bolded bits. This has, however, worked against him, because here he says that he will NOT put personal feelings ahead of winning. This is why, as mafia, he hasn't killed me yet. He knows that I am an easy target to push a mislynch on. It's true, I am. No matter how much he wants me dead, he knows that I'm his trump card in the endgame, and he can try to get rid of me any moment. This is why his not putting personal feelings ahead of winning is a scumslip, and he said here that his actions with the mafia nightkill this game have proved this.
Does this make any sense whatsoever? I don't know how much clearer I can make it... if someone does understand can they reword please? >_>
I have no idea how I'm going to word this, because as you all know, I'm really bad at wording these sorts of things, but I think this is a scumslip.vonFiedler said:
von says that I have "admitted to putting personal feelings ahead of winning". This isn't true, but von wouldn't know that because he's only read the bolded bits. This has, however, worked against him, because here he says that he will NOT put personal feelings ahead of winning. This is why, as mafia, he hasn't killed me yet. He knows that I am an easy target to push a mislynch on. It's true, I am. No matter how much he wants me dead, he knows that I'm his trump card in the endgame, and he can try to get rid of me any moment. This is why his not putting personal feelings ahead of winning is a scumslip, and he said here that his actions with the mafia nightkill this game have proved this.
Does this make any sense whatsoever? I don't know how much clearer I can make it... if someone does understand can they reword please? >_>
This was when I pointed out that I couldn't possibly have killed LightWolf as a means of defense because LightWolf never attacked me. His defense didn't address this, it just said "NOT IF YOU DID KILL HIM LOL" which doesn't even make literate sense...
Also apparently saying "I think someone on the Cancerous wagon should be lynched today" is the same as vowing to get someone on the Cancerous wagon lynched. Can you not see how von is lying about what I did here?
The gap here is #665 ~ #982. The post where I apologise about going on holiday is here: #1139. I wasn't on holiday during this big gap, sooooooo.... von lied again.
Jalmont thinks I should keep ignoring Celever when he is trying to have me lynched.
I've said "so many things" that you haven't read because you won't read large posts. You are actively sabotaging the village.
As long as you admit that, if we were both village, you'd fuck me over for fun, while I would not, I'm okay with whatever gibberish you are trying to say. You put personal feelings ahead of your team. I do not. Celever is anti-everything. I play the game. If you somehow think that counts against me, you are batshit insane.
Post #1357 is, like most of Celever's arguments in all the time he has played on smog mafia, entirely semantics. Lightwolf was cross with him. We both know he wouldn't have let Celever continue acting the way he has. He was a threat. "someone should be lynched is not the same as vowing" more semantics bullshit. Celever can do no better. He can put up no actual defense, because there are none for his actions. "I wasn't on vacation at that time!!!", well, I dunno, from the later half of day 2 up until day 5 you were either drunk, asleep, or otherwise busy, and those things usually ended up being bullshit. And this gap is the period where the town just didn't post much at all.
Ah, I see though. You say there's a gap between posts. It's this gap;
In other words, you relentlessly made posts to this effect. Why single out each and every one of them? None of them had unique info. Just the same shit. So you're still lying by saying I couldn't find anything within those posts. I just summed it up.
Now I'm a grown ass man and I have a job to go to, one where I've had a consistent schedule for the past three weeks. If that gives me the luxury of not having to respond to whatever Celever is cooking up now, so be it. I hope to see good things when I get home.
I would kill you, town or village, because you let emotion rule your play instead of common sense. I would only ever kill you because it's the best thing to do, so, needless to say, if I had the power to kill you, you would be dead by now.
LightWolf did nothing which would hint at him wanting to lynch me at all in that post. Can others interpret that as threatening towards me? Spiffy's been viewing the thread a while, I'm sure he has some thoughts. I need them, because I don't think it's plausible that von has lied quite this much, but what he's saying isn't true, so I'm completely confused now!
von also can't pass off my outing his endless exaggerations as "trivial semantics". Exageration clouds the town's minds.
He also just argued that because I'm busy I'm "basically on vacation". He then posts stating he HAS A JOB :O. See you when you get back from your holiday in a few hours, von! :)
von made no attempt to state that the gap was because none of the posts in said gap brought up anything new before the last post. I aired a proper concern, he can't pass it off as a lie. Everything I've claimed as lies I have used evidence to back myself up. von isn't doing this, mainly because he can't.
LightWolf did nothing which would hint at him wanting to lynch me at all in that post. Can others interpret that as threatening towards me? Spiffy's been viewing the thread a while, I'm sure he has some thoughts. I need them, because I don't think it's plausible that von has lied quite this much, but what he's saying isn't true, so I'm completely confused now!
von also can't pass off my outing his endless exaggerations as "trivial semantics". Exageration clouds the town's minds.
He also just argued that because I'm busy I'm "basically on vacation". He then posts stating he HAS A JOB :O. See you when you get back from your holiday in a few hours, von! :)
von made no attempt to state that the gap was because none of the posts in said gap brought up anything new before the last post. I aired a proper concern, he can't pass it off as a lie. Everything I've claimed as lies I have used evidence to back myself up. von isn't doing this, mainly because he can't.
I'm proud of you :')
"PokeNGuy is always right"
For instance, he was so adamant and stubborn about lynching me Day 1 after I shot down each and every one of his arguments. But on Day 2 when he launches into similarly shitty tirades against HD and HD refutes them, he backs off pretty easily. It's very uncharacteristic of Celever to do this.
But I think Celever's biggest offense so far was his "defense" against von. Really the only thing he says is "von's exaggerating/lying to make me look bad!!" and to that I say HOW IS THAT ANY NEWS TO YOU?
Throughout the game when von has made cases against me or Jalmont, he has resorted to several exaggerations and maybe some mistruths to get his point across. What I am wondering is why does Celever only have a problem with it when they are used against him? From what I recall, Celever did not once criticize von for his exaggerations until he was under fire. This to me seems like Celever is only interested in his own safety and not the town as a whole.
Some other nitpicks:
- Not buying the whole "If I was scum you would be dead argument". You cite one of von's posts and say it's all WIFOM but one of your biggest arguments against him is WIFOM.
Even a lot of the things you said he exaggerated aren't even exaggerations lol
tl;dr I know I said in literally my last post that I thought Celever was town but I feel like his recent exchange with von has revealed some scummy things about him that I think should be looked into.
All that being said however, I also agree with Jalmont that it's worrying that von literally hasn't said a thing about Celever until now, when it was clear that lynching me was not gonna fly. A lot of the points in von's case against Celever are also really trivial and in some cases irrelevant. But like I said this should really not be news to anyone given von's reputation. I'm kind of unsure about this debacle and would like input from everyone on this matter Odd Ghost Mithril PokeguyNXB Fatecrashers.
And Jalmont I think it's bad to fixate on the fact that von only just now mentioned Celever and just throw away his argument entirely. What do you think about some of the things I have said in this post regarding Celever?
Yeah this was actually a big reason why I worded my post as aggressively as I did: to see if people stood their ground on their opinions about the mass claim or caved in under the threat. I still think it would be helpful to mass claim but I can buy that it's not exactly necessary at this point in time. A lot of that was in response to you and Odd Ghost still thinking I was scum when I am now obviously clean.vonFiedler said:
Yeah I noticed how atrocious that argument was but I felt that it was so bad and no one really considered it that I didn't really even need to point it out. There was literally nothing to even defend against like that's how terrible it was. I agree that Celever's vote history has been really weird.vonFiedler said:
For instance, he was so adamant and stubborn about lynching me Day 1 after I shot down each and every one of his arguments. But on Day 2 when he launches into similarly shitty tirades against HD and HD refutes them, he backs off pretty easily. It's very uncharacteristic of Celever to do this.
But I think Celever's biggest offense so far was his "defense" against von. Really the only thing he says is "von's exaggerating/lying to make me look bad!!" and to that I say HOW IS THAT ANY NEWS TO YOU?
Throughout the game when von has made cases against me or Jalmont, he has resorted to several exaggerations and maybe some mistruths to get his point across. What I am wondering is why does Celever only have a problem with it when they are used against him? From what I recall, Celever did not once criticize von for his exaggerations until he was under fire. This to me seems like Celever is only interested in his own safety and not the town as a whole.
Some other nitpicks:
- Not buying the whole "If I was scum you would be dead argument". You cite one of von's posts and say it's all WIFOM but one of your biggest arguments against him is WIFOM.
Please elaborate on this. Why do we have to wait until tomorrow to get your explanation?Celever said:
Literally the first sentence.Celever said:
This is almost exactly what you said minus the word "vowed".Celever said:
Even a lot of the things you said he exaggerated aren't even exaggerations lol
tl;dr I know I said in literally my last post that I thought Celever was town but I feel like his recent exchange with von has revealed some scummy things about him that I think should be looked into.
All that being said however, I also agree with Jalmont that it's worrying that von literally hasn't said a thing about Celever until now, when it was clear that lynching me was not gonna fly. A lot of the points in von's case against Celever are also really trivial and in some cases irrelevant. But like I said this should really not be news to anyone given von's reputation. I'm kind of unsure about this debacle and would like input from everyone on this matter Odd Ghost Mithril PokeguyNXB Fatecrashers.
And Jalmont I think it's bad to fixate on the fact that von only just now mentioned Celever and just throw away his argument entirely. What do you think about some of the things I have said in this post regarding Celever?
I called von out on his ad hominem when he used it against Jalmont. I admittedly started skipping over a few of his posts, so maybe I was a little late to the party, but I'm pretty sure it was day 3 or 4.
Spiffy, I said it at the bottom of my last post that if you want anything clarified, point it out using von's post. My defense boils down to "von lied and exaggerated" because that's all his case is. I can't defend against what's not there.
You especially should know that the "if I were scum you'd be dead" argument is true. Remeber what we talked about after the last OC game?
That "snide remark" was pointing out a change in opinion and pushing for more info. Unorthodox? Maybe, but it worked, didn't it.
My vote history might be a little weird. IDRK, point out specifics.
Anything else you want me to defend against? I was vague about why I trust you now for a reason, BTW.
Spiffy, I said it at the bottom of my last post that if you want anything clarified, point it out using von's post. My defense boils down to "von lied and exaggerated" because that's all his case is. I can't defend against what's not there.
You especially should know that the "if I were scum you'd be dead" argument is true. Remeber what we talked about after the last OC game?
That "snide remark" was pointing out a change in opinion and pushing for more info. Unorthodox? Maybe, but it worked, didn't it.
My vote history might be a little weird. IDRK, point out specifics.
Anything else you want me to defend against? I was vague about why I trust you now for a reason, BTW.
Wayan Vistar
formerly Flyhn
This argument. von, congratulations, you're no longer in my townreads... but Celever doesn't look much better either, I've said he's made good points, but he wasn't ever on my townreads list (he was close though) I believe I should place my vote... but which one of them do i vote for... wow i don't know which of them is worse... both of them are resorting to extremely trivial arguments to try to get the other lynched. I'm definitely voting for one of these two, but I'm extremely unsure... sigh.... I guess I'll Lynch Celever for not being on my townreads at any point in the first place... but this is likely going to change multiple times. If whichever one of them who's lynched today flips town, I know who I'm going to lynch Day 6.
Jalmont regarding randomized roles: we rolled a dice until we got a Courier that had played the game on smogon before (moi, in this case) to not make it too hard for first-time players, the rest is randomized.
Celever regarding deadtalking: deadtalking should indeed not be done. Posting one short post right after you're killed is fine, but not more than that.
Celever regarding deadtalking: deadtalking should indeed not be done. Posting one short post right after you're killed is fine, but not more than that.
Jal, you are right that the post did not really contain many scumreads. It narrowed my parameters of where I want to look, though. I narrowed it to those five names. I don't think von or Fate is scum. I am fairly certain on that. Now that I have had time to think about everything, if I had a gun to my head I would say the mafia are probably in {Spiffy, Poke, Celever}.
Spiffy, I think I had posted before that saying I think Sunny is town. I'm pretty sure someone specifically asked me the difference between Sunny and PokeNGuy because the person asking me did not find them to be very different.
I agree that we should be mass claiming, although we are going to go into LyLo tomorrow so it doesn't really matter if we do it today or tomorrow I think. Unless we think one of the power roles is going to die tonight?
Like I said about the hypothesis that sunny as mafia would kill the Watcher tunneling him, that is a blatantly, scummy action to do which is why I don't think scum would actually do it.
Same principle holds here for Fate. Do you think I should be reconsidering Fate? Or do you just disagree with my read on him? I thought you were townreading Fate as well. Fate is town for his roleclaim, actions notwithstanding. The action is just what tipped me over the edge to say that Fate is confidently town.
More later!
Spiffy, I think I had posted before that saying I think Sunny is town. I'm pretty sure someone specifically asked me the difference between Sunny and PokeNGuy because the person asking me did not find them to be very different.
I agree that we should be mass claiming, although we are going to go into LyLo tomorrow so it doesn't really matter if we do it today or tomorrow I think. Unless we think one of the power roles is going to die tonight?
I do not know Cowbell in real life. Why do you ask? Is this even an important question?
Like I said about the hypothesis that sunny as mafia would kill the Watcher tunneling him, that is a blatantly, scummy action to do which is why I don't think scum would actually do it.
Same principle holds here for Fate. Do you think I should be reconsidering Fate? Or do you just disagree with my read on him? I thought you were townreading Fate as well. Fate is town for his roleclaim, actions notwithstanding. The action is just what tipped me over the edge to say that Fate is confidently town.
I think the opposite. I find mafia tend to put their partners in the nullzone. Although it is popular, depending on the size of the team, to put 1 scum in each category (which I consider poor play).
I don't really agree with this. I think that the vote hopping at the end by HD was an attempt to muddy the waters and spread confusion.
More later!
Alright taking a step back here.
I think the most intriguing thing that von offered regarding celever was #612, or at least when he talks of how celever goes from don't lynch --> lynch --> don't lynch. To me, that's the most interesting idea offered. I don't really know what to make of it. I mean von tells us that he can find fault with every one of celever's posts...that doesn't sound like good scumhunting to me. That sounds like someone going in with the idea that celever is already guilty.
re spiffy i do feel your points, but regarding not calling von out earlier...it's not exactly as if anyone else gave a shit either?? I mean, it was basically you and me who recognized what was happening. everyone else ignored it so i'm not sure it's all that strange, although i guess it is interesting that celever didn't really read much into it then i guess. meh i think it could be genuine but that's where meta comes in. is celever the type of guy who genuinely thinks that and adamantly defends him, or does he let his teammate go in that situation and hop on board the wagon? i'm not sure
The issue right now w/ pokeguy is that he fits in really well with a lot of possible mafia teams... it's hard to narrow things down because I feel like von + ghost is the most likely scum team (von had some bizarre logic with odd being a "100% clean" and OG thinks von is good as well.. combine that with less than convincing posting and von being and well you get where i'm going) but I can't rule out something like Celever + pokeguy,
the fact that roles weren't randomized suggests that ignoring people is a terrible strategy but also an anti-village one. just a sidenote
I think the most intriguing thing that von offered regarding celever was #612, or at least when he talks of how celever goes from don't lynch --> lynch --> don't lynch. To me, that's the most interesting idea offered. I don't really know what to make of it. I mean von tells us that he can find fault with every one of celever's posts...that doesn't sound like good scumhunting to me. That sounds like someone going in with the idea that celever is already guilty.
re spiffy i do feel your points, but regarding not calling von out earlier...it's not exactly as if anyone else gave a shit either?? I mean, it was basically you and me who recognized what was happening. everyone else ignored it so i'm not sure it's all that strange, although i guess it is interesting that celever didn't really read much into it then i guess. meh i think it could be genuine but that's where meta comes in. is celever the type of guy who genuinely thinks that and adamantly defends him, or does he let his teammate go in that situation and hop on board the wagon? i'm not sure
The issue right now w/ pokeguy is that he fits in really well with a lot of possible mafia teams... it's hard to narrow things down because I feel like von + ghost is the most likely scum team (von had some bizarre logic with odd being a "100% clean" and OG thinks von is good as well.. combine that with less than convincing posting and von being and well you get where i'm going) but I can't rule out something like Celever + pokeguy,
the fact that roles weren't randomized suggests that ignoring people is a terrible strategy but also an anti-village one. just a sidenote
Best reason to mass claim now: we can use the information with a mass claim to get a better informed lynch today and hopefully hit mafia, instead of wasting it on a day where we have to no lynch and lose a power role anyways.
Don't claim --> meh lynch with missing info, uninformed night kill, claim and no lynch, informed night kill
claim --> good lynch with no missing info, informed night kill, no lynch, informed night kill
So it depends. if we don't want to mislynch today, claiming is probably the best option. If people are ok with letting it go to M/L YLO then don't claim.
Don't claim --> meh lynch with missing info, uninformed night kill, claim and no lynch, informed night kill
claim --> good lynch with no missing info, informed night kill, no lynch, informed night kill
So it depends. if we don't want to mislynch today, claiming is probably the best option. If people are ok with letting it go to M/L YLO then don't claim.
Soooooo, anything I can defend against to make myself seem less scummy here, Pokeguy? ;) You guys seem to do this a lot...
Odd Ghost, could you please go into more detail about why von is such a strong town read for you?
Spiffy, I know I've wasted breath on Jalmont, but I'm certain that you can understand this.
Celever went from tunneling Sunny004 for two days, to accusing you of being mafia without addressing your bpv like I tried to, to abandoning that and abruptly deciding that I'm his best target. With ButteredToast dead, there goes honestly one of the most rational people I could rely on. With you and Jalmont always willing to lynch me purely because I'm not afraid to challenge you, and BT gone, suddenly Celever jumps on me after having almost never said anything about me before (as has been said, one snide remark is nothing)?
You get on me for bringing up that I was once considered very town, but BT isn't around to say it anymore, and now Jalmont is accusing the people I've swayed of being mafia. In his exact words, I'm mafia because "von being and well you get where i'm going". So when I see three people on the verge of lynching me in an 8 player game, I have to wonder what happened. Can you tell me what changed?
Was it the Sunny lynch? Of course it wasn't. Hence no one bringing it up.
Conversely, it seems very opportunistic of Celever, even to planned ahead degree, to try and pull this off all of a sudden. You can't be mafia. Jalmont could be but I mean the more I thought about the more it seemed like there were better targets. And when I actually took the time to read Celever's backlog, everything just sort of fell into place. Sure a lot of it is supplemental; I DID say as much. But many of those bold posts play into very scummy trends and there are some definite patterns to his behavior.
In particular, I'd love for you to address specifically his attempt to have you lynched on Day 4. If me grilling you over your BPV was so egregious, then how can Celever get a pass for suggesting that you be lynched without saying anything about your BPV? And then how can he see me grill you over your BPV and use that as ammo to try to lynch me? Jalmont, if you refuse to read my massive post, then read this paragraph.
Tunnelling means I was focusing only on sunny. This is not true.
Making a "bad" case =/= being scum.
Still not abruptly. I've still not thought of you as a major town this whole game, and while I haven't had grounds to find you suspicious, I haven't had many grounds to find you town, either.
With you having such a high opinion of ButteredToast, it's not surprising you killed him. You seem to have so much praise for him as a townie, so he would have been a high priority for you as scum.
I've never said anything good about you either. In fact, at one point when there was a lot of posts overnight for me, I started skipping some of yours. A load of insults and sarcasm doesn't equal good contribution in the slightest, and that's what your posts end up boiling down to. Honestly I didn't even notice BT buddying you. Did he? I'd have to go back and check and I'm headed off to school soon (I explicitly said school for you this time!) soooo.
Because we as the town were actually smart for a moment. My suspicion on you stems from HD's actions surrounding you, and then as I looked further into you I saw scumminess from you in many places too. And the fact that your case against me is literally all lies (and you haven't even denied this) only shows your scumminess better.
Plus, we had no reads earlier on today, so the town was forced to look into people who we otherwise might not look so closely into.
Umm... yes? It wasn't the sunny lynch? Are you suspecting me of my hair colour? Of course not. That's why no one's brought it up.
I'm confused here, did von just say that I can't be mafia? After building that whole case on me?
And this really isn't opportunism. Like I said earlier, we were at a loss of targets. You just happen to be the scummiest of the remaining targets. Odd Ghost isn't great either, but to you he's basically clean (and vice versa) so not only will lynching you get rid of a scum, it could very easily tip us off to your buddy too.
They really don't lol. Jalmont said it himself, you have built this case assuming I am scum, and you've gone searching for things which you MIGHT be able to bend to look scummy. You literally claimed this yourself.
Care to point out these "scummy patterns"?
I've never used you trying to lynch Spiffy against you. I've used your backpedal to prove how false your case is. One does not simply go from trying to lynch someone to claiming them to be 100% clean in a day (real time). Clearly you're desperate to lynch me and will say anything you can think of to get me dead.
"You"
Do you think I want to talk to you? I was talking to Spiffy. Let the grown ups talk, I'm not going to stay up till 5 in the morning doing this again.
I'd like to see that smugness when you're dead.
Ah, now you're just stealing my lines.
But as such, I can actually give you a pretty good tip. That satisfaction is only temporary. Celever just keeps coming back and never seems to learn a thing from his last failure.
I guess life is just about more than one-upping some guy you don't really know online. If you don't get it now, don't worry, you haven't gone through your formative years yet.
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