Policy Review Evolution Project Rules Workshop

[DougJustDoug]

We've talked a lot about doing an evolution project. We have only nailed down two things regarding such a project:

1. Evolutions will not be done in our "normal" CAP projects.
2. The process for making evolutions will be an abbreviated version of the normal CAP process.

Beyond that, nothing else has been determined.

Although the CAP process is still in flux, I think we should start serious discussion of the exact process by which an evolution would be created. For anyone interested in creating evolutions, this is the thread to voice your opinion on the proper process to follow.

This is not a thread to suggest pokemon for evolutions or any other creation concepts. This is only for discussing the evolution creation process.

Once we get a formal process worked out, then we can discuss a timetable for starting an evolution project.

 

[X-Act]

I think the process should start by singling out the Pokemon that is going to be evolved. This could kinda replace the concept submissions part and the concept poll in the normal CAP.

Main type poll could be omitted if the Pokemon chosen has only one type. I might be wrong, but I believe that every evolved Pokemon shares at least one type of its pre-evo. The main poll can be done to choose between which of the two types should remain in the evolved Pokemon, if the Pokemon chosen to be evolved has two types. The secondary type poll, then, will decide its second type as usual.

I'll continue elaborating on this later, as I have a lecture now.

 

[IceBug]

Just my two cents. In addition to the previously mentioned, it may be beneficial to also do a "Prevo, Evo, Split Evo..." as to what's to be made. Of course prevo would be for naught, but this way a split evolution could come from this type of project as well. And, if possible, a main and split, who knows.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, I know I kind of flaked pout on the last Guide, but Dane was doing such a great job (and the topic was actually moving forward at a good rate) that I let him run with it.

Here's my thought process.

CaE Step 1- Concept

We start with a Concept poll like we usually do to focus our options on one specific thing. For example, if we decided we wanted a physical sweeper, we probably wouldn't evolve Mr. Mime into one (Geebus give that thing 60 HP or something.)

CaE Step 2 - Pokemon Submissions.

Once we have our concept, we can submit pokemon that fit the role.

The rules are:

1. Must have 2 stages or less at present (Sorry, no alt Dragonair evos.)

I'd also probably get on people's case for wanting to evolve Stone evolutions, but we can debate that later.

2. Cannot be Legendary

This is self-explanatory, although I should add this includes Unown and fossils.

3. Cannot be a previous CAP Pokemon.

See above.

4. Should have at least one key stat that will not change (or change very little) upon evolution.

This way we don't have people making physical sweeper Chimecho or something. I'd be less strict on this on say a Farfetch'd or Spinda evolution, but even then I'd recommend keeping a defense the same.

5. Should be as close to the original in stat distribution as possible.

In other words, don't turn Mightyena into a tank. This should logically follow from 4, but it might not resonate. Just using our hypothetical Mightyena, a more defensive evolution build of 85/85/70 would probably fly, but 80/70/95 is a stretch. What would prompt Mightyena's SD to go up 45 Points? Such a pokemon would be better than Mightyena and incedibly alluring, but wouldn't logically follow as an evolution.

6. New typings and abilities should be avoided if possible.

By the same token, Mightyena shouldn't be sprouting wings, nor replacing Quick Feet with Levitate.

7. Paired pokemon (like say Lunatone and Solrock) should either be done together or not at all. This is hard to qualify in some cases (e.g. Ledian and Ariados), but whatever.

These starter rules in mind, lets say this occurs from step one:

Concept: High-Attack Utility.
Description: Must have a good support movepool and at least one powerful offensive stat.

Potential Pokemon Submissions:

Banette (115 Atk, 93 SA, WoW, TWave, Trick, Knock Off, Frisk ability)
Cacturne (115 Atk and SA, Leech Seed, Spikes)
Carnivine (100 Atk, 90 SA, Leech Seed, Powders, Stockpile)
Ariados (90 Atk, Spider Web, Baton Pass, Toxic Spikes)
Donphan (120 Atk, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Roar)
Granbull (120 Atk, Roar, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Heal Bell)

And so forth. Actually, thats probably a comprehensive list since I went searching for pokemon that fit the role.

I'll save movepool for a later post after more discussion, but essentially there should be minimal changes.

 

[eric the espeon]

I think first we should have a bold text vote with every non-stage 3 non-legendary Pokemon as an option (no need to list them) then move the top 5 onto a clickey poll. Concept polls are not needed at all for this type of project at all.

Next a vote to see if we ant to change the type, if no move on, if yes discuss possible typings vote on what the new type should be (Agreeing with X-Act that at least 1 type should stay the same, only Eevee changes its type completely as far as I know).

[Open art thread here, now that the type is picked]

Next vote on whether to change or keep ability/s, if no move on if yes discuss Possible abilitys and vote on them.

Discuss and vote on additions to the movepool. / Vote on Art (not sure of the order here)

[Open Sprite thread]

Discuss and vote on Stat Spread (no need for build as that is already picked by the pre-evo).

Vote on Sprites.

I think that is everything.

1. Must have 2 stages or less at present (Sorry, no alt Dragonair evos.)

Bellossom?

 

[latinoheat]

* Main Type (2 Days)-

The first poll is a way of narrowing down the options, this is to make sure we don't get numerous one vote options. Each typing should have a list of pokemon eliglble to evolve, all types should be included therefore this topic would require a Bold poll.

Voting Options: Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric..........

Evolution Discussion

With typing already chosen this will have hopefully narrowed down the evolution options to at the most 20 pokemon, in this topic we discuss which of these options would be the best candidate for evolution. Any posts that do not discuss one of these options are strictly forbidden.


Evolution Poll

All options made eligble via the Main type poll will be included, the type of poll will be determined by the number of options available.

Voting options(Dependant on Main typing result)- Fire option 1, Fire option 2, Fire option 3......

Secondary Typing(Part 1)

A simple poll to see whether this pokemon will retain its current typing or whether it will have a completly new secondary typing. The first typing will automatically decided by the type chosen in Main type.

Voting Options- Retain current typing, New Secondary typing, Retain only Main type


Secondary typing(Part 2)

This poll will only occur if the New Secondary typing option wins, this is to basically a vote on the second typing of the pokemon. It is the TL discretion to determine whether certain combinations are allowed based on both "flavour" and "brokeness".

Voting Options: Normal, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric..........


still in progress

 

[X-Act]

I don't see why we should have a concept poll for evos as well. Why not just start by voting which Pokemon is to be evolved? The concept kinda is encapsulated with the Pokemon that's chosen to be evolved. If people want to evolve Sunflora, people want a Pokemon similar in concept to Sunflora but better, and the same holds for Chimecho, Banette, Pinsir, or any other Pokemon.

Also I wouldn't do a complete ban on alternate evolutions, though I would limit them somewhat. A Water/Bug alternate evo to Surskit would be interesting for example. And the game has quite a few alternate evos: Slowbro/Slowking, Poliwrath/Politoed, Vileplume/Bellossom, come to mind.

 

[Mekkah]

Main type poll could be omitted if the Pokemon chosen has only one type. I might be wrong, but I believe that every evolved Pokemon shares at least one type of its pre-evo.

Eevee.

I agree with Deck Knight's suggestions as they stay consistent with the game. No Stone evolution evolutions please. I would not mind an Unown evolution as much though, I can actually see the cart making you do ridiculous things like catch them all and organize them in your box in alphabetical order so that the first one evolves or something. It's nothing new that a retarded Pokemon becomes good (Feebas, Magikarp).

Don't care a lot for split evo's, I like the Water/Bug Surskit evolution idea.

 

[latinoheat]

I believe we should keep away from split evolution and magikarp/gyarados type evolutions for this first one. The process will no doubt have flaws we will need to iron out, we probably don't want to complicate it further with these type of evolutions.

 

[IceBug]

Regarding split evos, I don't necessarily think it would be good for a maiden voyage project. What I'd like to bring to attention is a vote for split evos of one pokemon. Example: I personally think Mawile is a good candidate for the "Lvl evolution, Dawn Stone split with this gender" thing. Likewise, if Eevee was ever selected, it might be beneficial to release in pairs, to not only continue with the in-game trend, but set up the ever present typing balance (Psychic with Dark, Ice with Grass).

 

[Elevator Music]

I don't see why we should have a concept poll for evos as well. Why not just start by voting which Pokemon is to be evolved? The concept kinda is encapsulated with the Pokemon that's chosen to be evolved. If people want to evolve Sunflora, people want a Pokemon similar in concept to Sunflora but better, and the same holds for Chimecho, Banette, Pinsir, or any other Pokemon.

Also I wouldn't do a complete ban on alternate evolutions, though I would limit them somewhat. A Water/Bug alternate evo to Surskit would be interesting for example. And the game has quite a few alternate evos: Slowbro/Slowking, Poliwrath/Politoed, Vileplume/Bellossom, come to mind. Gallade/Gardevoir as well

Agreeing. Why start with concept? I would much rather start with typing.

We should follow in-game precedence for evolution though, if someone can figure out exactly what that entails.

 

[eric the espeon]

I do not think we should pick the type before the Pokemon, why not just have a discussion thread (discussing what Pokemon we want to evolve) open for a few days, let the TL chose 10 that have the most support and vote from there.
Choseing the type or concept before picking the Pokemon is unneeded and will only serve to slow the project down, once we pick the Pokemon we can chose any type changes and the concept is largely decided by the pre-evo.

 

[Dane]

I don't think a concept is needed for this, at least not from the beginning. Excluding crazy things like Magikarp and Eevee, the evolution usually doesn't change rolls from the pre-evos, it just ends up being usable. Granted, that's not always the case with things that gain evolutions later (...Scizor), but that can be decided on before/during the stats part.

I agree with doing a type poll first, since otherwise we're likely to end up with a LOT of one-of / two-of votes. Here's the basic count that each type would have to choose from, excluding legendies, fossils, current BL and OU Pokemon, stage 3's, Eevee evolutions, and item evolutions:


Bug - (12) Parasect, Venomoth, Ledian, Ariados, Shuckle, Surskit / Masquerain, Volbeat, Illumise, Kricketune, Wormadam, Mothim, and Vespiquen / Combee
Dark - (8) Mightyena, Sableye, Sharpedo, Cacturne, Crawdaunt, Absol, Skuntank, and Drapion
Dragon - (1) Altaria
Electric - (7) Electrode, Lanturn, Manectric, Plusle, Minun, Rotom, and Pachirisu
Fighting - (5) Primeape, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, and Toxicroak
Fire - (4) Rapidash, Magcargo, Camperupt, and Torkoal
Flying - (17) Fearow, Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Noctowl, Ledian, Xatu, Delibird, Mantine, Swellow, Pelipper, Masquerain, Altaria, Tropius, Mothim, Combee / Vespiquen, Drifblim, and Chatot
Ghost - (4) Sableye, Banette, Rotom, and Drifblim
Grass - (7) Parasect, Sunflora, Cacturne, Tropius, Wormadam, Cherrim, and Carnivine
Ground - (7) Sandslash, Quagsire, Camperupt, Whiscash, Claydol, Wormadam, and Gastrodon
Ice - (5) Dewgong, Jynx, Lapras, Delibird, and Glalie
Normal - (23) Raticate, Fearow, Persian, Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Kangaskhan, Ditto, Furret, Noctowl, Girafarig, Dunsparce, Granbull, Stantler, Linoone, Swellow, Delcatty, Spinda, Castform, Kecleon, Bibarel, Lopunny, Purugly, and Chatot
Poison - (10) Arbok, Venomoth, Muk, Ariados, Qwilfish, Swalot, Seviper, Skuntank, Drapion, and Toxicroak
Psychic - (10) Hypno, Mr Mime, Jynx, Xatu, Girafarig, Grumpig, Lunatone, Solrock, Claydol, and Chimecho
Rock - (8) Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Magcargo, Corsola, Probopass, Lunatone, Solrock, and Relicanth
Steel - (3) Mawile, Wormadam, and Probopass
Water - (22) Golduck, Dewgong, Kingler, Seaking, Lapras, Lanturn, Quagsire, Qwilfish, Corsola, Octillery, Mantine, Pelipper, Surskit, Sharpedo, Wailord, Whiscash, Crawdaunt, Relicanth, Luvdisc, Bibarel, Gastrodon, and Lumineon


As you can see, even counting the overlaps, that's a lot of potential candidates to not narrow it down first. I agree with Deck Knight that typings shouldn't be changed, but only if it already has two types. (ie: If something is Water / Rock, don't change it's typing. If it were just Water and we wanted to add a secondary though, that's fine.) However, abilities could potentially be changed if there's good enough reason.

 

[latinoheat]

Even though its crap Rotom is considered a legendary

 

[eric the espeon]

I agree with doing a type poll first, since otherwise we're likely to end up with a LOT of one-of / two-of votes.

Even if there is a discussion thread from which the TL picks 10 Pokemon?

And I don't see why BL or maybe even OU should be excluded, Dusknoir evolved from a OU so evolving OU's should not be banned.
Item evolutions should not be banned if its a split evo like Bellossom.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Even though its crap Rotom is considered a legendary

How is Rotom considered a legendary? It can't be the battle music you're listening to while trying to catch that give this illusion of legendary status. Rotom is by no means a legendary Pokemon, regardless of what others say it is.

Also, why are we excluding Fossils, Split, and Item evolution ideas? I assuming those are viable evolution ideas to use?

 

[Dane]

When Duscops evolved into Dusknoir, he wasn't the only Pokemon being introduced. In fact, he did so when the entire battle system changed. We're doing this on a Pokemon by Pokemon basis. By taking an OU Pokemon and evolving it, what are we accomplishing? Making it even more OU? Or changing it completely (see: Scyther to Scizor), in which case why bother evolving it instead of just making an entirely new Pokemon?

In the case of BL Pokemon, many can already stand on their own in the OU environment. Others generally can't (such as Houndoom), but how do we determine exactly which ones are in BL only to keep them out of UU, and which are BL because they're strong enough to compete in OU but aren't quite used enough?

Item split evolving would basically have the split end up like just a variation of the original. While this is theoretically acceptable, where do we draw the line on what we can evolve? Who's to say we can't evolve Pikachu into Pikablu using Aqua Stone (new item!)? At least for the first few projects, it's better if we don't allow split evolutions so as to prevent variations.

The point of evolving is to make Pokemon usable that would otherwise be relagated to UU or not even then.

 

[X-Act]

I agree with Dane, but I thought that was kinda obvious. Maybe it wasn't. I would evolve things like Farfetch'd and Luvdisc before things like Dodrio and Donphan.

 

[Mekkah]

Even though its crap Rotom is considered a legendary

By who? Not by me. I haven't played the game, but besides battle music and shit, Rotom seems more like Snorlax or Sudowoodo to me. You can also breed Ditto with Rotom.

 

[Dane]

Interesting, it can breed with Ditto. Good enough evidence for me that it isn't legendary.

 

[Syprus]

We don't want to evolve a pokemon that's tiered in OU (Abomasnow, Breloom) since it will be a bit over powered because it will have higher stats then it does already. So OU pokemon should be banned from the CaPE because people will start whining about a Breloomodon rampaging through their team with ease. So it would make more sense to only allow UU pokemon (Dunsparce, Arbok) and possibley, BL pokemon (Houndoom, Lickilicky) evolutions to play with OU friends then having OU pokemon turning uber.

 

[Kamen Rider]

I agree that we should decide what pokemon to evolve first and worry about typing, concept and all that afterwords, since the pokemon will help dictate that off the bat. I also agree we should keep it to direct level evolution ideas and save branching/stone/special condition evolutions for future projects once we have the basics hammered out.

 

[Time Mage]

I'm agreeing with the majority, CaE doesn't need a concept thread/poll. Deciding which pokémon we want to evolve should be the first poll(s), then add another type if applicable, then stats, etc.

Also, I don't think pokémon that evolve from rocks or special items, or fossils should be left out... But let's keep them aside for at least the first project, so that we can concentrate in make the process good with the basic evolutions and then add things in next projects.

 

[jagged_angel]

I do not think we should pick the type before the Pokemon, why not just have a discussion thread (discussing what Pokemon we want to evolve) open for a few days, let the TL chose 10 that have the most support and vote from there.
Choseing the type or concept before picking the Pokemon is unneeded and will only serve to slow the project down, once we pick the Pokemon we can chose any type changes and the concept is largely decided by the pre-evo.

Letting the TL choose 10 possible evos from what might be 50+ evo candidates is giving Alot of power to the TL. Too much, IMO.

The trouble with starting this process by concept is already stated - pokemon rarely drastically change roles or stat distribution when they evolve.

The trouble with starting this process by typing is that people mostly get an idea of a very good candidate for evolution (take Surskit as an example). Having to vote for the Type of pokemon they want to evolve presents a dilemma - what if you would hate to be involved with an Ariados or Lapras evolution? You still have to vote for Bug or Water. There's no guarantee others wont steer the CaE away from your favoured pokemon once the main type has been chosen.

The way I see it, the only viable method of choosing which pokemon to evolve is by suggesting individual pokemon. The main problem with this is the huge variety of pokes that will be suggested. This is easily limited by 1) allowing only one candidate per person, 2) capping the total number of submissions (somewhere between 20 - 50) and closing the submission thread once the limit is reached. Then, a bold voting poll will whittle they ideas down to 10 at most, but the way most polls go you'll probably not have more than 5 strongly supported pokes. Then a second poll to choose the pokemon to evolve. That would be less complex and no more lengthy than the CAP4 Concept Submission and polls have been.

 

[tennisace]

Imo, it should be choose the pokemon first, then the "concept" and types. This takes less time because the rolls are usually the same for evolutions, exceptions being Scizor and Gallade.