Eviolite

[chimpact]

Dusclops becomes a much bulkier but weaker dusknoir

 

[Charlemagne]

Don't forget that Porygon2 has Trace, which will copy Intimidate and cancel the Dragon Dance's attack boost on the switch in. I'm pretty sure Outrage and Mence's Dream World ability are incompatible so he'll have to have Intimidate.

252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Salamence's Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Bold Preev. Stone Porygon2: 39.6% - 46.8%

Er, if Wichu is right and Preevo stone increases Defenses by 30% for Porygon2 (as an evolved NFE), that gives Bold MaxDef Porygon2 397 Defense, meaning Salamence's LO +0 Outrage does 50.4%-60.1, a certain 2HKO.

Even a 50% boost (which would give would 459 Def) give higher percentages than the numbers you calculated (LO +0 Outrage does 44.11%-52.13% if it's 50%, still a possible 2HKO). That's without any hazard damage.

Edit: I understand that it is 50% on all NFEs. Still can't reliably stop Adamant LO Sally.

Edit2: Darnit. I almost wasn't totally wrong. Miscalc on my part.

 

[XenoIncognito]

Er, if Wichu is right and Preevo stone increases Defenses by 30% for Porygon2 (as an evolved NFE), that gives Bold MaxDef Porygon2 397 Defense, meaning Salamence's LO +0 Outrage does 50.4%-60.1, a certain 2HKO.

Even a 50% boost (which would give would 459 Def) give higher percentages than the numbers you calculated (LO +0 Outrage does 44.11%-52.13% if it's 50%, still a possible 2HKO). That's without any hazard damage.

No, he corrected himself and said that it was 50% for all stages. Anyways, Salamence isn't really a benchmark for how reliable a wall Pory-2 would be. Trace is actually extremely useful.

 

[Wanderer]

Later in the thread he clarified that the 30% figure was a mistake on his part. It's confirmed by him that the item gives a 50% boost to all NFEs.

Also, Obesity's calculations are correct. Did you input 374 HP and 459 Def?

 

[Charlemagne]

Later in the thread he clarified that the 30% figure was a mistake on his part. It's confirmed by him that the item gives a 50% boost to all NFEs.

Also, his calculations are correct. Did you input 374 HP and 459 Def?

I gave Salamence 450 Attack instead of 405. >(

He is right. Sheesh.

This item is nuts.

 

[Wanderer]

I gave Salamence 450 Attack instead of 405. >(

He is right. Sheesh.

I'm not trying to attack you. :P

Back on topic, I just looked through Porygon2's movepool. It looks like he has Magic Coat to abuse, which in 5th gen reflects entry hazards, Taunt, status, and a lot more stuff. With some prediction, this could be extremely useful to help prevent being Toxiced and being set up on.

 

[Charlemagne]

I'm not trying to attack you. :P

Back on topic, I just looked through Porygon2's movepool. It looks like he has Magic Coat to abuse, which in 5th gen reflects entry hazards, Taunt, status, and a lot more stuff. With some prediction, this could be extremely useful to help prevent being Toxiced and being set up on.

I knew you weren't. Thank you for your courteousness.

The 'sheesh' was directed at the preevo stone, not you. I was really hoping that those calcs were wrong.

 

[Obesity]

Later in the thread he clarified that the 30% figure was a mistake on his part. It's confirmed by him that the item gives a 50% boost to all NFEs.

Also, Obesity's calculations are correct. Did you input 374 HP and 459 Def?

...Why would I bother with that? This item gives a 50% boost. Stage 1 of all stat boosts is a 50% increase. I just raise the Defense and Special Defense levels to +1 when making calcs.

 

[Charlemagne]

...Why would I bother with that? This item gives a 50% boost. Stage 1 of all stat boosts is a 50% increase. I just raise the Defense and Special Defense levels to +1 when making calcs.

Wanderer was talking to me.

I thought (hoped) your calcs were wrong.

 

[Obesity]

Hey guys, saying "Pre-Evolution Stone" in its entirety is kinda...I don't know, awkward I guess? If using it a lot in a thread, I think we need a shorter name for it. "Preevo Stone" and "Preevo" are also...IDK they just don't feel right. How about we just refer to Pokemon holding a Pre-Evolution Stone as...well, Stoned? :D

Wanderer was talking to me.

I thought (hoped) your calcs were wrong.

I know, but I was questioning his methods of editing stats when he can just use the +1Def/+1SpDef method.

No, he corrected himself and said that it was 50% for all stages. Anyways, Salamence isn't really a benchmark for how reliable a wall Pory-2 would be. Trace is actually extremely useful.

True. My point of bringing up Pokemon like Mewtwo and Salamence for my calcs is to show just how bulky Porygon2 is. He takes physical attacks 2% better than Lugia and special attacks 2% worse than Lugia. Pretty fantastic for a NFE.

252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Salamence's Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Bold Lugia: 41.3% - 49%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Porygon2: 39.6% - 46.8%


252 Sp. Atk Modest Life Orb Mewtwo's Fire Blast vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Stoned Porygon2: 28.1% - 33.2%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Lugia: 26.9% - 31.7%

 

[Afti]

How would Togetic like this? It has good defenses and a killer movepool; could it see use? Normal/Flying is still not a good defensive type, though...

 

[backlot]

Does Togetic really have a great move pool? I know it lacks Air Slash and Aurasphere so it cant really try to be a bulkier Togekiss.

 

[Wanderer]

I am fully aware that you can use +1 to denote the boost from Prevo Stone, but Charlemagne said 459 Def so I replied with his own method.

Togetic would likely not be able to take full advantage of this. It's not a wall in the same way that Togekiss is not usually a wall (Flying secondary type gives it a few notable weaknesses), and it won't perform to its best if it's treated like one. It does give it a good defensive boost and may very well make it usable in the lower tiers (with its good support movepool and decent spA), but it doesn't give it enough to compete with stronger Pokemon.

 

[Afti]

If it tried to be Togekiss, it'd flop miserably. But it could definitely pull off a Wish/Reflect/Light Screen set.

 

[Obesity]

I am fully aware that you can use +1 to denote the boost from Prevo Stone, but Charlemagne said 459 Def so I replied with his own method.

Oh, okay good. Sorry if I came off a bit cross with that post, but I was worried that I had been doing all my calcs completely wrong lol.

How would Togetic like this? It has good defenses and a killer movepool; could it see use? Normal/Flying is still not a good defensive type, though...

Wanderer's post below pretty much sums up my thoughts.

Togetic would likely not be able to take full advantage of this. It's not a wall in the same way that Togekiss is not usually a wall (Flying secondary type gives it a few notable weaknesses), and it won't perform to its best if it's treated like one. It does give it a good defensive boost and may make it usable in the lower tiers, but it doesn't give it the tools it needs to compete with stronger Pokemon.

Togetic would be good...but good just isn't good enough. Porygon2 is great. Dusclops is great. Togetic doesn't have the power or speed to compare to Togekiss. This doesn't mean it's unusable, even in OU, but it's simply not as good as other options.

That said, the special defensive boost is certainly apparent, however it appears to be mostly outclassed by Leftovers.

252 Sp. Attack Choice Specs Modest Alakazam's Psychic vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Togeiss: 39.6% - 46.8%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Stoned Togetic: 33.8% - 40.1%

If it tried to be Togekiss, it'd flop miserably. But it could definitely pull off a Wish/Reflect/Light Screen set.

Good point. The goal here isn't to make the NFE a bulky, weaker version of it's evolution, but to make it a different Pokemon. If all it can do is take hits a little better, it's not doing its job. Dusclops is certainly doing its job in this case, with far superior defenses than Dusknoir. They're not the same pokemon. Dusknoir is offensive, Dusclops is not. The mission is successful. I'm not sure Togetic can really accomplish this, but he may have a shot if he pulls a completely supportive set.

 

[Charlemagne]

"Stoned" Porygon2 can take an LO Close Combat from Lucario. 8|

 

[M BLADE]

Well, since i'm interested on Scyther, i made some calcs for a bulky sweeper set.

Assuming Evs are 224 HP/ 68 Def/ 216 Spd (from the BP set; 248 HP makes Scyther bulkier overall):

Super Effective moves:

Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard: 43.3% - 51.6%
Bold 0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam: 35.6% - 42.1%
Choice Scarf Rotom-A Thunderbolt: 64.1% - 75.4%
252 SpA Timid Moltres Air Slash: 81.9% - 96.7%

Neutral move:Max SpA Timid Salamence Draco Meteor: 62.6% - 74.2%


... damn. This is a a sweeper, thus being able to survive even a SE Air Slash coming from LO Moltres is impressive.
Being able to set up on basically any bulky water even with SR on field is even more impressive.

 

[Wanderer]

Unless this item gets a whole lot of Pokemon banned from the lower tiers (unlikely since the general power level has been raised), it could be the thing that lets people use Pokemon that aren't usually viable. Okay, so hypothetically Togekiss is OU. Need a Grass counter in UU? Just use Togetic to suit your needs.

And yeah, you know it's ridiculous when Porygon2 can survive an Adamant LO CC from Lucario, lol.

 

[Obesity]

"Stoned" Porygon2 can take an LO Close Combat from Lucario. 8|

252 HP/48 Def/208 Sp. Def Bold Porygon2 takes 84% - 99.5% from that Close Combat while having a nice investment in Sp. Def.

I think I'm loving this item as much as you're hating it XD Sorry mate.

Assuming Evs are 224 HP/ 68 Def/ 252 Spd

224 + 68 + 252 = 544. You're 34 EVs too high mate.

 

[M BLADE]

252 HP/48 Def/208 Sp. Def Bold Porygon2 takes 84% - 99.5% from that Close Combat while having a nice investment in Sp. Def.

I think I'm loving this item as much as you're hating it XD Sorry mate.



224 + 68 + 252 = 544. You're 34 EVs too high mate.

Drop the speed to 216.
I just assume Scyther is always with max speed >_>

 

[Charlemagne]

252 HP/48 Def/208 Sp. Def Bold Porygon2 takes 84% - 99.5% from that Close Combat while having a nice investment in Sp. Def.

I think I'm loving this item as much as you're hating it XD Sorry mate.



224 + 68 + 252 = 544. You're 34 EVs too high mate.

I don't hate it, it just makes me want to cry. ;_; At least Luke can OHKO Porygon2 with an SD or a Cheer Up...

Lucario can OHKO Stoned Porygon2 with a +1 CC, right?

That sounded so ridiculous....

 

[Obesity]

Stats dump for anyone interested

Hide

252 Sp. Attack Choice Specs Modest Alakazam's Psychic vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Togeiss: 39.6% - 46.8%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Stoned Togetic: 33.8% - 40.1%


252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Salamence's Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Bronzor: 23.9% - 28.3%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Bronzong: 27.5% - 32.8%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Lickitung: 43.2% - 51%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Lickilicky: 50.5% - 59.7%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Rhydon: 29.7% - 35%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Rhyperior: 39.6% - 47%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Golbat: 48.6% - 57.6%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Crobat: 63.6% - 75.4%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Lugia: 41.3% - 49%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Stoned Porygon2: 39.6% - 46.8%


252 Sp. Atk Modest Life Orb Mewtwo's Fire Blast vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Stoned Porygon2: 28.1% - 33.2%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Lugia: 26.9% - 31.7%


252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Nidoking's Stone Edge vs.

252 HP/252 Def Bold Pre-Evolution Stone Vulpix: 70.7% - 83.6%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Ninetails: 61.1% - 72%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Pre-Evolution Stone Snover: 54.9% - 64.8%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Abomasnow: 55.7% - 65.6%

252 HP/252 Def Bold Pre-Evolution Stone Hippopotas: 10.3% - 12.1%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Hippowdon: 9.3% - 11%


252 Sp. Atk Timid Life Orb Azelf's Psychic vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Pre-Evolution Stone Vulpix: 42.1% - 49.6%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Ninetails: 38.6% - 45.4%

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Pre-Evolution Stone Snover: 38% - 44.8%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Abomasnow: 39.1% - 46.1%

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Pre-Evolution Stone Hippopotas: 42.6% - 50.6%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Hippowdon: 39.3% - 46.4%

Heh, well Dusclops and Shanderaa of course. xD

It's interesting to note just how much better Dusclops takes hits than Dusknoir with the preevo stone on:

Look at these calcs -

252 SpA Hasty Rayquaza LO Draco Meteor vs.

252 HP/252 SpD Careful Dusknoir = 65.6% - 77.6%
252 HP/0 SpD Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 62.3% - 73.2%

Dusclops, without even touching his Special Defense, takes this particular hit better than a Dusknoir who's dumped all of his EVs into HP and Special Defense.

Looking at the physical side:

252 Atk Jolly ScarfChomp Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusknoir = 39.1% - 46.3%
252 HP/252 Def Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 27.8% - 33.1%

Basically, Dusclops is shrugging this hit off, taking what's basically a 4HKO and he's able to Pain Split it off rather easily. Dusknoir, however, is looking at a 2HKO with Stealth Rock up.

According to my calculations, Dusclops is taking hits only 3% worse than Giratina-A, who has 150/120/120 defenses. He even takes hits just slightly better than 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia. Pretty awesome in my opinion, since Dusclops's craptastic HP helps him a lot with Pain Split, since he's basically working with 40/219/219 defenses after the preevo stone boost.

EDIT: I guess I should back up the Giratina/Cresselia thing with calcs, just to make sure everyone understands what I'm saying:

Jolly ScarfChomp Earthquake vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Giratina = 20.8% - 24.6%
252 HP/252 Def Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 23.6% - 27.8%

Jolly ScarfChomp Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusclops = 27.8% - 33.1%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Cresselia = 28.4% - 33.3%

252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef Careful Dusclops vs. 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD Bold Porygon2

Modest 252SpA +1 LO Draco Meteor Salamence:
Dusclops 68.7% - 80.6%
Porygon2 77.3% - 91.4%
252 HP Skarmory 87.1% - 102.4%

Adamant 252Atk +1 LO Outrage Salamence:
Dusclops 71.1% - 83.8%
Porygon2 61.2% - 72.2%
252HP / 252Def Bold Blissey 146.2% - 172%

With Dusclops taking Special Attacks better than Porygon2 and Porygon2 taking Physical Attacks better, these two can be used together in tandem for a great defensive core. Porygon2's only weakness being Fighting, with Dusclops being immune to Fighting. Dusclops weaknesses are Ghost and Dark, Porygon2 being immune to Ghost and neutral to Dark.

This combo even outclasses the SkarmBliss combo surviving both Physical and Special Attacks instead of relying on a partner. Both of the SkarmBliss combo are abliterated by either Salamence, unlike the new Poryclops combo.

If you add a Heart of Justice user in tandem with this like:
Absol (Weakness to Fighting and Bug which are handled by Dusclops and resisting Dark types)
Lucario (Weakness to Ground, Fire and Fighting which are handled by both and a x4 resistance to Dark)
Gallade (Weak to Flying Ghost which are handled by Porygon2)
You could provide chances for a set up coming in off a Dark move and when they switch out stat up, sweeping entire teams

+2 Adamant Dragon Claw Life Orb Rayquaza vs 252 HP/252 Def +1 Def (Thanks to Stone) Bold Porygon2

57.22% --> 67.65%

+1 Adamant Outrage Life Orb Rayquaza vs 252 HP/252 Def +1 Def (Thanks to Stone) Bold Porygon2

64.17% --> 75.67%

How is +2 ray doing less than +1?

But it raises his defenses to a whole different level. If you may provide it for example Dual Screen support, then Pory2 is probably unbreakable without massive critical hit.

Obesity, thanks for calculations. They will help me ALOT ;).

I also wanted to check Machoke. As it is quite bulky for NFE with 80/70/60 and it isn't bad even without boosts, while Pre-Evolution Stone boosts it even further. Also unlike many NFE it has 100 base Attack to threaten some stuff with STAB DynamicPunch. I don't think that loosing 30 base Atk is worth it, however in lower tiers Machoke may be quite neat tank with more then solid base attack.

CB Earthquake Adamant Tyranitar vs Max HP (No Def EVs):

Machamp = 57.55% --> 67.71%
Stoned Machoke = 45.05% --> 53.30%

In other words Machoke may be 2OHKOed only 30% of time, while Machamp is 2OHKOed 100% of time.

Jolly Life Orb Outrage Salamence vs Max HP (No Def EVs)

Machamp = 82.03% --> 96.88% (20% of OHKO with SR up)
Stoned Machoke = 64.29% --> 75.82%

Adamant Life Orb +1 Waterfall Gyarados vs Max HP (No Def EVs)

Machamp = 85.16% --> 100.26% (41% for OHKO with SR up)
Stoned Machoke = 67.03% --> 79.12%

Assuming 252 HP/252 Def+ for both:

Donphan: 384 HP/372 Def/156 SDef
Hippopotas: 340 HP/420 Def/180 SDef

Donphan's got some serious competition this gen, guys.

As an example CB Torterra Wood Hammer deals 103.6% - 122.4% to Donphan and 95.5% - 112.3% to Hippo o.o

Yeah, Machoke has better physical bulkyness and slighty better special bulkyness, but the loss of 30 Attack BP and no-item is very disappointing. Machamp Lead works due to Lum Berry, and most of other sets love Lefties.

I guess the best set to Machoke will be the Rest-Talk, where he can have a reliable recovery move.

For Slowpoke... No :


Slowpoke Stoned 252 PV/252 Def Nature + againt a Slowbro with the same spread.

Draco Meteor from Salamence Naive LO 252 EVs Atk Spe :
Slowpoke :93.2% - 110.2%
Slowbro : 80.7% - 95.2%

Stone Edge +2 from Infernape Jolly LO 252 Ev Atk :
Slowpoke : 39.8% - 46.9%
Slowbro : 41.6% - 49%

Globally, Slowpoke is slighty better physically but sooo worse than Slowbro specially. And he has small attacking options.

Tangela will be good no ?


Tangela vs Tangrowth : 252 PV / 252 Def Nature +
Stone Edge from Tyranitar Bander Adamant 252 EVs Atk
Tangela : 35.9% - 42.5%
Tangrowth : 41.8% - 49.8%

DynamicPunch from Machamp Adamant 252 Evs Atk
Tangela : 23.7% - 28.1%
Tangrowth : 27.5% - 32.7%

Hydropump from Rotom-W Spec Modest 252 Evs Atk Spe
Tangela : 56.3% - 66.5%
Tangrowth : 59.4% - 70%

The assets are very slight, especially with Lefties, but Tangela has a more reliable Leech Seed...

Well I said that I would NOT choose Machoke anyway, as loosing those 30 points in attacks is too big difference to seriously consider it. However as a defensive RestTalker Machoke may work even in OU - it has bulk and fortunately recovery for this. Invest enough defense to always survive two CB Earthquakes from Tyranitar, rest invest into Attack. Machamp must invest a really massive number of EVs to secure surviving here.



Well, I never considered Slowpoke, as I saw difference in statistics between them. However I see some little use of it in future NU (or something similar). With so many Fighting types this Gen, some older ones may end in lower tiers like Primeape, Hitmonchan, Machoke, etc. giving Slowpoke quite good niche.



Honestly I don't think it's worth it, especially when Tangrowth goes with special defensive route. However in physical it may be considered... but I would still choose Tangrowth, just for Leftovers and having similar bulk to even boosted Tangela.



I think I would go a bit different route. Thanks to Thick Fat it doesn't die from random Fire Blasts from Salamence and Sazando. There may be way to play it - investing in special bulk, as you take 47.03% -> 55.69% from Life Orb Neutral Salamence's Draco Meteor and just Ice Shard it back, while easily surviving unboosted Life Orb Outrage
(and Choice Band hit), if you mispredict. It looks extremely similar with Dragonite and Flygon. Heck, you take Draco Meteor from MixQuaza (58.91% --> 69.80%) with Max HP/Max SpD Neutral Piloswine (in other words you may use Adamant) and Ice Shard it back. If you face DD or SD, the worst what may happen it to take 54.95% --> 64.85% with Max HP from Adamant SD Life Orb E-Speed and again Ice Shard is here for OHKO. Heck, the funniest thing is that you take 71.29% -> 84.16% from Adamant Choice Band Outrage Rayquaza, so Stoned Piloswine is 100% check against Rayquaza, lol. This Piloswine beats EVERY single x4 weak Dragon in game. However against Sazando and other no x4 weak ice Dragon Pokemon go with something else - it doesn't have enough power.

I don't hate it, it just makes me want to cry. At least Luke can OHKO Porygon2 with an SD or a Cheer Up...

Lucario can OHKO Stoned Porygon2 with a +1 CC, right?

That sounds so ridiculous....

Nope. If running 252 HP/252 Def Bold, Stoned Porygon2 lives past +2.

Hide

ROFL no I'm joking it does 103.2% - 121.9% at +1

 

[Charlemagne]

Nope. If running 252 HP/252 Def Bold, Stoned Porygon2 lives past +2.

Hide

ROFL no I'm joking it does 103.2% - 121.9% at +1

You almost killed me with that joke.

I hate when I use an extra period in my ellipsis. It's supposed to have 3, not 4.

So, even with SR, Adamant LO Salamence can't 2HKO Porygon2 with Outrage without a +1 Attack boost, huh?

 

[Grodyngel]

Well if NFE's are used in OU its easy prediction that they are holding everstone. Wouldn't that make it easy to switch in and just use knock off?

 

[Charlemagne]

They'll probably only show up to stop Salamence sweeps and stuff like that, so Knocking off the Prevo Stone will be complicated.

Maybe you can bait them out early with a SD Gliscor or something and then Knock Off their item.