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Pokémon Emboar
- Thread starter Jaguar360
- Start date
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Emboar really does not belong in OU at all. It's outclassed by Victini and TR isn't even an argument because V-Create drops your speed so Victini "out-slows" Emboar after a single one. It's solid UU maybe, but definitely not OU.
Alright gonna clarify some things about Emboar vs. Victini. Victini posses similar strength to Emboar thanks to V-Create and Bolt Strike's high base power and they both lack many or any counters. Victini is also a bit faster and has similar bulk. However, Emboar's a bit easier to get in and out, as it is neutral to Stealth Rock and resists Pursuit while Victini has great problems with both. While Victini is faster, it doesn't outspeed all that much over Emboar on offensive or defensive teams. For the relevant bulkier threats, Victini only gets to outspeed Gliscor and the base 100s (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Tentacruel) and on offense, Breloom, Dragonite and various other Pokemon between the 70-85 speed tier. Emboar's typing allows it to be a nice check to Bisharp, Scizor (Victini's weak to Knock Off and Pursuit) and Sableye while Victini checks...Clefable.
Emboar's merits seem small, but they actually could help it quite a bit since switching in and out and is such a big part of both it and Victini's gameplay. Throwing it in the trash before actually trying it out seems too hasty.
Emboar's merits seem small, but they actually could help it quite a bit since switching in and out and is such a big part of both it and Victini's gameplay. Throwing it in the trash before actually trying it out seems too hasty.
All this said, and I know this is theorymonning, but what would you say is it's best set(s), and what do you feel would be an effective core with it, or what sort of team do you feel it'd work well on?
Best set is probably Choice Band, since it has the most firepower and allows it to get past pretty much anything in the tier with right prediction.
Emboar seems to fit well on balance teams, as well as bulky offense for the most part. They allow it to take on the faster offensive threats that it can't really handle.
Here's a core it could fit on:
Emboar @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Head Smash
Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Protect
- Knock Off
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Ice Beam
This is an offensively-inclined core for balanced teams. Emboar wallbreaks like it's supposed to, Mega Beedrill provides U-turn support and puts pressure on the faster Pokemon in the tier like the Latis, Keldeo, Gengar, etc. Starmie provides much-needed Rapid Spin support and also is a nice answer to Metagross and Keldeo thanks to its speed tier and typing.
The core is pretty weak to Talonflame and birdspam in general, however, so Rotom-W, Rhyperior, Raikou and others make nice partners.
Well, I don't think Emboar is an OU material. It will definitely be a powerhouse in UU but in OU there seems to be a lot of checks for him like Latis, Mamoswine, Talonflame and Rotom- W. The only real counter seems to be Lando-T. I'm not a fan of wild charge so I'd prefer having life orb and sucker punch just to do some heavy damage to Latis and Metagross:
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (Mega) Metagross: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarf variant is also really interesting. Emboar have 251 max speed so after scarf boost it equals 376,5 , max speed of Tornadus- T is 375 ( 121 base speed). So as a scarfer Emboar is able to outspeed big threats like Alakazam or Hawlucha. It may be OU for a couple of weeks just like Diancie was when it was released.
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (Mega) Metagross: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarf variant is also really interesting. Emboar have 251 max speed so after scarf boost it equals 376,5 , max speed of Tornadus- T is 375 ( 121 base speed). So as a scarfer Emboar is able to outspeed big threats like Alakazam or Hawlucha. It may be OU for a couple of weeks just like Diancie was when it was released.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 192-226 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nice counter you got there
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 224-264 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mamoswine: 450-530 (125.3 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nice checks you got there
Nobody is saying that it's going to be OU; it just has its niches in the tier that should allow it to be viable (like Dragalge, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, etc.) Lando-T is not really a counter since it is 2HKOed by Choice Band Flare Blitz, is outsped on the defensive set and has no recovery, but it is a decent check and will likely be a bit annoying for Emboar at most. Rotom-W is not really a check since it is also outspeed and takes over 66% from a Banded Superpower or Head Smash. Scarf Rotom-W outspeeds, but that's not really a thing anymore and it is OHKOed by Head Smash/Superpower.
And what exactly is wrong with Wild Charge? It has great coverage with Flare Blitz, hitting most bulky Waters and Flying types that Emboar would struggle with otherwise. It is also one of the only moves that Emboar has that is boosted by Reckless.
But you said "Will Emboar have a place in OU? Discuss!" and that's exacly what i did. So I can agree, Rotom- W isn't a good check but emboar isn't able to 2HKO Lando- T anyway:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 146-172 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I never said that wild charge is a bad move . I just prefer to have priority, but it really depends on the rest of the team.
Checks and counters aren't the same thing
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
Usage =/= viability. Emboar probably is not going to be OU by usage, but it seems viable enough to have a place on the viability rankings or to perform decently in an OU match. Also, you calced with Jolly. Recreant provided the right calc with Adamant.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 192-226 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
EDIT: Wait, what am I doing? Jolly actually is on the Band set lol. It was Reckless you were missing.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 175-207 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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Sorry I put head smash instead of flare blitz. Flare Blitz 2HKOs Lando- T after rocks. I'm sure Emboar will be on OU viability ranking, but I would give it max B-.
Hrmmm. B-. That's alongside Alomomola, Azelf, Conkeldurr, Sylveon, Tangrowth and Zapdos... And above MCamerupt, Cobalion and Staraptor. For reference, Victini* is B. That... implies it's usable on a broad range of teams, I guess. I'm not personally convinced? Not that Emboar is actually bad, it definitely has a niche. But then that means little when things like Lickilicky are technically usable in exact circumstances in OU, (Ben Gay's team thread was... enlightening) but those circumstances are not that common or too easily filled by other Pokemon. Which is I think where Emboar struggles; too much stuff behaves similarly to it and for similar or less cost. *nothing*, in comparison, does what Serperior does. Even Dragalge has a niche in its resistances and special bulk. I'm convinced Emboar is usable in OU, I'm just not sure why you'd ever choose it in a practical scenario -- "Victini that is neutral to Stealth Rock" just doesn't cut it and warrants D with that alone. (not that Emboar deserves D overall! It's that specific niche is a D thing.)
*note that I'm totally aware Victini and Emboar are different pokemon with different strengths, we've established that, but Victini is by FAR the most similar to Emboar and they are comparable.
Jaguar360 , what does Emboar do in that core that the other wallbreakers can't do? Besides being a non-mega, that's a niche for a wallbreaker I guess.
Taking from the Role Compendium thread, it's competing with Azumarill, Crawdaunt (heheh), Diggersby, Keldeo, Mienshao (...?), Staraptor, Victini, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Terrakion, Dragalge, Serperior and Sylveon for a spot. Crawdaunt isn't too useful here, Staraptor requires Talonflame, Keldeo's too similar to Starmie and doesn't appreciate the birdspam weakness, so they're out at least. Kyurem-B and Terrakion don't really like Scizor, who would cause trouble to the core pretty often. Arguably they're out too. Reliable steel-type removal is more or less mandatory with Starmie and Beedrill without Drill Run so that's Dragalge, Serperior and Sylveon out. That's some of the work done I guess, unless I'm missing something. :? So yeah, why is Emboar better than the bolded guys in this core? :O
*note that I'm totally aware Victini and Emboar are different pokemon with different strengths, we've established that, but Victini is by FAR the most similar to Emboar and they are comparable.
Jaguar360 , what does Emboar do in that core that the other wallbreakers can't do? Besides being a non-mega, that's a niche for a wallbreaker I guess.
Taking from the Role Compendium thread, it's competing with Azumarill, Crawdaunt (heheh), Diggersby, Keldeo, Mienshao (...?), Staraptor, Victini, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Terrakion, Dragalge, Serperior and Sylveon for a spot. Crawdaunt isn't too useful here, Staraptor requires Talonflame, Keldeo's too similar to Starmie and doesn't appreciate the birdspam weakness, so they're out at least. Kyurem-B and Terrakion don't really like Scizor, who would cause trouble to the core pretty often. Arguably they're out too. Reliable steel-type removal is more or less mandatory with Starmie and Beedrill without Drill Run so that's Dragalge, Serperior and Sylveon out. That's some of the work done I guess, unless I'm missing something. :? So yeah, why is Emboar better than the bolded guys in this core? :O
It can't be burned, it has no defensive counters, it screws over Mega Sableye and I already explained its niches over Victini. It also has more bulk and a slightly better defensive typing than Diggersby and Mienshao. Emboar's STABs are more reliable than Band Dragonite's Outrage and Dragonite is weak to SR because of its typing and Multiscale. Azumarill can get walled by Mega Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, Amoonguss and Skarmory while Emboar can 2HKO anything in OU.
For reference, I see Emboar as a C rank Pokemon right now, and B- rank is the highest I could see it going to if the metagame becomes good enough for it. I find it hard to believe that it could be unranked, however; D rank seems like the lowest in could go.
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And that's exactly why I said max B-. Emboar has some good offensive versatility which allows him to outspeed a lot of things with a scarf and/or OHKO or 2HKO almost every pokemon. Maybe B- is too good for Emboar but seriously try to name 3 counters for him.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Just wondering, how viable does everyone think Choice Scarf Emboar is?
It was talked about a bit and if Greninja goes to Uberland tomorrow, it could be pretty viable. It won't have the same nuking power, but it will perform a lot better against offensive teams with a Scarf since it outspeeds everything except Talonflame, other Scarfers and the 6 fast Megas.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Let's be honest, reading the suspect thread, Greninja is as good as banned.
But yea. Talonflame shits on all Fighting types. Emboar COULD predict the switch and go for the Wild Charge. As far as staying in, though, there's no way Emboar can survive Brave Bird from a Banded Talonflame. For Sharp Beak variants, it can only guarantee survival with max Defense, HP, and a +Def Nature. (Bulky Emboar new meta?)
But yea. Talonflame shits on all Fighting types. Emboar COULD predict the switch and go for the Wild Charge. As far as staying in, though, there's no way Emboar can survive Brave Bird from a Banded Talonflame. For Sharp Beak variants, it can only guarantee survival with max Defense, HP, and a +Def Nature. (Bulky Emboar new meta?)
That's good stuff! Very convincing. Kind of makes me want to use Emboar now!
Talonflame in regards to Emboar is kind of moot - weakness to Band Bird is not an automatic exclusion from OU, and all it really does is stop Emboar from sweeping... which it probably wasn't going to be doing it anyway, especially considering all that recoil. Here's a nice stat though.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 223-263 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:D Who needs prediction, eh?
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Prediction will get it out of the way completely, getting rid of Emboar's #1 check. But if Stealth Rock is up, I see your point.
Also, I've decided to try and put together a team based on Emboar. This is what I came up woth so far:
Emboar (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Head Smash
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
Venusaur (M) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
I chose those two Pokemon to take care of things Emboar would struggle with. Rotom's there for Talonflame, and Venusaur's there for Water/Ground types that Emboar won't appreciate. Any suggestions for other team mates?
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Emboar is just going to be a niche pokemon at best.. it counters scizor and bisharp, nothing new from before.
While yes emboar is an absolute nuke, we're forgetting that it gets worn down so easily from recoil damage that SR neutrality doesn't even matter.. Due to slow speed easily scared out and revenge killed by rotom, landorus, latitwins, keldeo, actually lemme just say most of the higher ranks to save space.
THAT is the difference between victini and emboar.. you're forgetting that hazards can be kept off the field for victini, recoil cannot be prevented for emboar.. which will be much more massive in comparison to SR. Emboar is literally just a one trick pony.. get a lucky switch in, potentially nuke something, lose half your health, gtfo to be saved for later death fodder.
In HO, emboar cannot switch into anything and is easily outsped even when scarfed by other scarfed pokemon.
In Stall, emboar's main counters all live there such as slowbro, quaqsire, and even swampert threatens him.
This is just not going to be a pokemon worth using in OU... now a lot of pokemon did get their HAs that made them better for OU. However emboarand samurott is not one of them.
My question is.. why would I run this guy over dragalge, staraptor, and victini? I already stated why victini, victini isn't dead weight most of the time and doesn't get weared down as easily with hazards as recoil does to emboar.. Dragalge has much higher nuking potential, more switch ins, and has no drawbacks outside dracos stat drop which even after still hits like a truck. Staraptor is in a similar boat to victini, but can actually outspeed and threaten fast threats like sceptile, scarf lando, and beedrill.
Also I ask.. what exactly does emboar 2HKO now that he couldn't 2HKO before? I'm not saying reckless never mattered but I'm curious how much of an impact it really is.
While yes emboar is an absolute nuke, we're forgetting that it gets worn down so easily from recoil damage that SR neutrality doesn't even matter.. Due to slow speed easily scared out and revenge killed by rotom, landorus, latitwins, keldeo, actually lemme just say most of the higher ranks to save space.
THAT is the difference between victini and emboar.. you're forgetting that hazards can be kept off the field for victini, recoil cannot be prevented for emboar.. which will be much more massive in comparison to SR. Emboar is literally just a one trick pony.. get a lucky switch in, potentially nuke something, lose half your health, gtfo to be saved for later death fodder.
In HO, emboar cannot switch into anything and is easily outsped even when scarfed by other scarfed pokemon.
In Stall, emboar's main counters all live there such as slowbro, quaqsire, and even swampert threatens him.
This is just not going to be a pokemon worth using in OU... now a lot of pokemon did get their HAs that made them better for OU. However emboar
My question is.. why would I run this guy over dragalge, staraptor, and victini? I already stated why victini, victini isn't dead weight most of the time and doesn't get weared down as easily with hazards as recoil does to emboar.. Dragalge has much higher nuking potential, more switch ins, and has no drawbacks outside dracos stat drop which even after still hits like a truck. Staraptor is in a similar boat to victini, but can actually outspeed and threaten fast threats like sceptile, scarf lando, and beedrill.
Also I ask.. what exactly does emboar 2HKO now that he couldn't 2HKO before? I'm not saying reckless never mattered but I'm curious how much of an impact it really is.
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I'm not too convinced yet on the scarf variant. Imo this will be it's best set, the moment I saw Emboar gets sucker punch I was sold.
I'm thinking of using this as a stronger but slower Infernape who is NOT easily checked by threats like Lati@s, Megagross, Gengar and fairy types, can't wait till the 16th.
Let's just be fair here. Emboar's 110/65/65 defensive stats are not similar to Victini's 100/100/100. 40 points more in both defensive stats certainly is better than 10 extra HP points. You're right that Victini takes more damage from Stealth Rock and is Pursuit weak, but Emboar's recoil moves make up for this further still. So the longevity is not really as comparable as lead to believe.
Also, I recommend slashing Head Smash with Grass Knot on the CB set for aforementioned reasons. I looked over suspect thread and Head Smash helps with Latios, Latias, Mega Altaria and Dragonite switch ins. Grass Knot helps with Hippowdon, Rhyperior, Mega Slowbro, and a few others I mentioned. So it depends what threatens your team more. Besides, that accuracy. :(
Sand teams and Mold Breaker Excadrill are a problem for this core. While Emboar wrecks Tyranitar, the combination of sand, hazards and recoil will take you out insanely quick, and hamper Venusaur's healing with Synthesis. You need weather and hazard control badly. Probably a Rapid Spin Excadrill of your own. I'd recommend Leech Seed is possible, passive healing to Emboar is appreciated. The core is also weak to fast Psychic types like Latios, Mega Gallade and Mega Metagross. I don't think Venusaur is the best here, as well as the Flying weakness. Bisharp here helps tremendously with Sucker Punch. I'd recommend an Assault Vest or SD Lum set. Emboar would greatly appreciate Pursuit support.Prediction will get it out of the way completely, getting rid of Emboar's #1 check. But if Stealth Rock is up, I see your point.
Also, I've decided to try and put together a team based on Emboar. This is what I came up woth so far:
Emboar (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Head Smash
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
Venusaur (M) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
I chose those two Pokemon to take care of things Emboar would struggle with. Rotom's there for Talonflame, and Venusaur's there for Water/Ground types that Emboar won't appreciate. Any suggestions for other team mates?
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Just did some calcs and you're right (though to nitpick Emboar's defensive stats are 65 for each). Victini is more bulky than I thought compared to Emboar.
0 Atk Mew Earthquake vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 204-242 (55.5 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Emboar does beat them anyway with Flare Blitz, Superpower/Hammer Arm, and Wild Charge respectively, but Grass Knot does make killing them easier and Head Smash isn't quite necessary either. I'll slash it since it seems to be worth it, but Grass Knot doesn't 2HKO Slowbro sadly.
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