Elgyem

[Gengan]

#605 - Elgyem
55 HP / 55 Atk / 55 Def / 85 SAtk / 55 SDef / 30 Spe
Abilities: Telepathy / Syncronize / Analytic​

When one looks at Elgyem, they don't see much. Weak defenses, SAtk and Spe stats outclassed largely by Abra, and generally useless abilities. It doesn't even warrant an analysis.

However, BW2 came along and gave Elgyem a few new toys. First off is Analytic, which boosts the power of attacks for the slower mons. This is great for Elgyem because his speed is horrifying. This is followed by some new support moves, most notably Trick, Gravity, and the ever useful Magic Coat. Finally, Elgyem recieves Dark Pulse and Signal Beam from Move Tutors. This means that Elgyem can't be stopped by Ghost or Dark types, who otherwise destroy it. This also gives Elgyem a new niche; Trick Room attacker.

So, you're probably looking at this and saying, "Well, yay, new stuff. But what does it have over Abra?" Well, a couple of things. Elgyem can run an effective Eviolite set, where Abra cannot. Although having matching SDef, Elgyem boasts a stronger Def. Eviolite brings Elgyem's Def and SDef both up to 22, which is amazing for Psychic-types. Second, Elgyem can use Magic Coat much better than Abra could ever dream of. Since Abra is so frail, it couldn't use Magic Coat effectively if it wanted to. Elgyem laughs at this as his defenses are good enough to pull it off. Finally, Elgyem can do a support set with the many supporting moves it has (which also includes Light Screen and Barrier), while still giving the fun of wrecking fighting types.

Discussion: Does Elgyem make a good team member? What would his role be if used on a team? What could be a good set for Elgyem to use in battle?

Set Under Discussion

Name: Eviolite
Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 76 HP/ 240 SAtk / 160 SDef
Quiet Nature
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Recover

NOTE: Please feel free to post damage calcs (defensive or offensive). They're far more helpful than you'd think, as they can show what we should watch out for when debating moves/EVs/etc.

 

[Ray Jay]

Again, please please please get these approved by a moderator before you just go posting them. What's done is done though.

 

[Gengan]

D: Discussions have to be approved too?!

Jesus, how many times in one day am I gonna screw up...

 

[SpecsX]

@Ray Jay
So are you locking this or can we post and discuss?

If we can discuss, then I believe that a Nasty Plot set would be viable.

LGM@ Eviolite
Analytic
Nasty Plot/Psychic/HP Fighting/Shadow ball OR Recover

Pretty easy to set up on say, Mienfoo or something. You get a LO boost w/out recoil, and you can choos your item!

Shadow Ball for coverage/Recover for longevity
This is mostly theorymonning here though.
Does this thing really not have an analysis?

 

[Gengan]

Does this thing really not have an analysis?

Sadly, no. And it could have so much potential as a good support mon too!

LGM@ Eviolite
Analytic
Nasty Plot/Psychic/HP Fighting/Shadow ball OR Recover

That's a pretty f**king awesome good moveset. EVs/Nature would have been nice, but it's a good start. Let me work a bit on this.

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 236 SDef / 186 Def / 86 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse
- Recover / Thunderbolt

Alright. So we don't really need Shadow Ball, as Dark Pulse outclasses it there. One NP boost brings Elgyem's SAtk up to 32, with is outstandingly high. Eviolite with the given EV spread gives Elgyem 21 Def and 24 SDef. This makes him a very efficient tank. Psychic, combined with STAB and a boost, hits hard. Dark Pulse for Ghost-types, and it has nice neutral coverage. Recover can be used to extend longevity, but Thunderbolt can be used for MixCrow. His Def might have nothing on Slowpoke's, but lol Slowpoke has catching up to do here. A Pokemon to set up Trick Room would make this guy extremely hard to deal with. Let me do some damage calcs to see what he can do...

Elgyem Offensive Calcs vs. Smogon-Set Mienfoo

84SpAtk lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 0HP/36SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 85% - 114% (18 - 24 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 50% chance to OHKO.
84SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 0HP/36SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 114% - 142% (24 - 30 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
84SpAtk +2 lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 0HP/36SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 171% - 209% (36 - 44 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
84SpAtk +2 Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 0HP/36SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 228% - 266% (48 - 56 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

lol Mienfoo's best be scared.

• Without the NP boost or Analytic boost, Psychic guarantees a 2HKO.
• With just the Analytic boost, Psychic guarantees a OHKO
• With the NP boost, another guaranteed OHKO
• Do I even need to say what happens with both boosts?

 

[Ray Jay]

No, you're free to discuss now :)

Also, I would recommend Shadow Ball > Dark Pulse. The flinch chance is not as significant as chance to drop SpDef, and you maintain neutral coverage on a Fighting-type switch in. You also of course maintain a super effective hit on Misdreavus, Gastly, and Frillish so there's very little reason to use Dark Pulse instead of Shadow Ball.

HP Fighting could be pretty nice instead of Thunderbolt as well, it just seems like you have a lot easier chance against Ferroseed, Lileep, and Pawniard than you do against Murkrow...

 

[Gengan]

I would recommend Shadow Ball > Dark Pulse. The flinch chance is not as significant as chance to drop SpDef, and you maintain neutral coverage on a Fighting-type switch in. You also of course maintain a super effective hit on Misdreavus, Gastly, and Frillish so there's very little reason to use Dark Pulse instead of Shadow Ball.

HP Fighting could be pretty nice instead of Thunderbolt as well, it just seems like you have a lot easier chance against Ferroseed, Lileep, and Pawniard than you do against Murkrow...

Both solid arguments. Dark Pulse does have decent coverage; of course, the SDef drop from SB is nice, although at +2 it wouldn't change much.

Meanwhile, lemme edit OP and add the set under discussion and calcs for it. If anyone wants to do any more calcs, it'd be greatly appreciated. Each one helps us point out threats (or therefore lack of).

 

[SpecsX]

I'd do calcs, but they'll have to wait awhile, as I probably won't be able to use the computer this weekend. Sorry about the lack of EVs, Little Cup spreads baffle me.

 

[Gengan]

Sorry about the lack of EVs, Little Cup spreads baffle me.

lol you should have seen me when I first started LC.

You might wanna change Scraggy's EV spread. That's the kind used in OU, not LC.

Oh, I didn't realize that. I didn't even realize that people used Scraggy in OU...

Anyway, I can do some calcs tonight against some common mons.

 

[SpecsX]

Heheheh. Well, I usually get my EVs off the analysis(which of course there isn't one) but the nature should always be Quiet (that's -speed, +Special Attack right?), to get Analytic boosts against as many mons as possible.

 

[Gone to the beach]

Instead of asking what this has over abra (just because they are psychic types doesn't make them similar), you should be asking what this has over solosis. Sure it has better bulk but ( solosis has 10/11, this has 12/12) but does that really help it take hits better? Solosis has a three higher special attack then elgyem, which, if you're going to be using it for TR is crucial. Solosis can also use life without recoil and has an ability that is fantastic inside and out of trick room. It also gives it a life orb boost that is the same as the analytic boost without taking recoil.

And Nasty plot shouldn't be used on sets unless your setting up trick room yourself. You want to maximize trick room turns, considering how the opponent will be switching (or fake out/protect) around trying to stall out trick room.

Even if you had that spread to survive a certain hit, it needs to change. When a psychic type can't 0hko the standard fighting type in the tier, something is wrong.

 

[Elevator Music]

I'm on my phone atm so this post will lack depth, but Elgyem is a really cool poke!

My personal favorite sets are 3 attack+Recover sets and a Calm Mind set. I don't really like the idea of Trick Room, because Elgyem's main selling point is Analytic and TR detracts from that too much. On that note, Quiet is definitely the best nature for all the sets.

 

[SpecsX]

Agreeing with Elevator Music. No way in hell should you be using this in TR, as Analytic gives it it's niche.

Would Choice Specs work? You lose recovery, but would the added power be worth it?
Also, U-turn is super effective, not neutral, Gengan.

 

[Gengan]

Oh my. So many posts to go over. Alright, let's start.

I will switch Calm to Quiet nature. TR is out because of Analytic. Nasty Plot will have to be debated, so it's changeable ATM. And the EV Spread will be changed once there's a decent suggestion up.

Also, U-turn is super effective, not neutral, Gengan.

The "neutral" was in reference to the Nature and whether or not the stat in question was boosted by it.

Even if you had that spread to survive a certain hit, it needs to change. When a psychic type can't 0hko the standard fighting type in the tier, something is wrong.

It can OHKO it. It's slow enough to get the Analytic boost, which OHKO's it, as show by this:

84SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 0HP/36SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 114% - 142% (24 - 30 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

 

[blarajan]

But...Elgyem never hits Mienfoo...ever. It just U-Turns out! Unless your Mienfoo is your Elgyem counter and main switch-in!

 

[Arcticblast]

I can see a bulky SubRecover set working pretty well, considering Elgyem's power with Analytic.

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 236 SDef / 186 Def / 86 SAtk (stolen from Gengan's NP set, I'm not sure what EVs to give it)
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting
- Recover

The third slot would depend on what your team has trouble with. Otherwise, this plays similarly to... just about every Sub + Heal Pokemon in existence. It is much slower, so the bulk is important here - without it, you might not get to set up a Substitute.

(Before anybody asks, I do in fact have LC experience, albeit not that much since I really just started today...)

 

[Gengan]

But...Elgyem never hits Mienfoo...ever. It just U-Turns out! Unless your Mienfoo is your Elgyem counter and main switch-in!

Point taken. Now that I think about it, the only way Elgyem could ever hope to OHKO Mienfoo is if it was a TR sweeper (or if it caught it on an unexpected switch-in), which we've already decided was totally pointless because of Analytic.

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 236 SDef / 186 Def / 86 SAtk (stolen from Gengan's NP set, I'm not sure what EVs to give it)
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting
- Recover

This is a decent set. I can see it working out well. Make a sub and Recover any damage. It doesn't really hit that hard without NP though, and 32 SAtk is pretty good by LC standards.

And technically, Shadow Ball > HP Fight imo. Since no one sends in Ferroseed or Bronzor to break a Sub, Shadow Ball would be a better idea. But then Scraggy... ugh. So generally that's a tough choice. Narrowing that down would be nice.

 

[papita]

I agree with Gone to the Beach. Not only Elgyem faces competition from Abra but also from Solosis, who can also abuse TR and CM and it has a much better ability in magic guard. NP is something Solosis can´t do. Specs maybe?But my point is Elgyem, while it´s good, must find roles that can´t be done better by other psychics in the tier

 

[Rowan]

I've played a bit with Elgyem and I find it really hard to switch in to play, as a lot of things seem to threaten it in this metagame. Even Croagunk can deal good damage with Shadow Ball or Sucker Punch, Mienfoo can just U-turn which I think will deal over 50% (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm never sure which calculator to use atm). Chinchou, Staryu and Snover 2HKO with Hydro Pump/Blizzard after a bit of prior damage. It won't like a toxic from Bronzor or Lileep. The only other common thing that wouldn't be stupid switching into is Magnemite, who still outspeeds and can Volt Switch out to a counter.
For reference, I'm using a spread of 76HP, 240SpA, 160SpD and a Quiet nature.

Recover does remedy its inability to switch in somewhat, but Elgyem's low speed makes this difficult to abuse without losing momentum.

Nasty Plot is not good at all really, as Elgyem will never get the opportunity to set up. Calm mind is slightly better, but the only things I can see it setting up on are random special attackers like Chinchou and Staryu. CM is definitely worth testing though.
In my opinion Recover + 3 attacks is the way to go, but despite it's power, the low speed really lets it down.

Set I used

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 76 HP/ 240 SAtk / 160 SDef
Quiet Nature
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Recover

EVs are simple; maximised special attack, then the rest help to get the best out of its special bulk.

 

[SpecsX]

Just posting to say that nothing in the tier can stand up to Specs Elgyem after switching into Stealth Rock. EVERYTHING is 2HKOd by the appropriate move. The only mon that isn't is Bronzor, and that is easily 3HKOd, meaning with a little prior damage, it tears through everything. The drawback? Elgyem outspeeds practically nothing, so it WILL HAVE TO take a hit. That being said, I could see this as a great wallbreaker.

Edit: Yep, I double checked, and so much of the tier is OHKO'd it's not even funny. I just hope Honko's calculator is accurate for LC.

 

[iss]

Just posting to say that nothing in the tier can stand up to Specs Elgyem after switching into Stealth Rock. EVERYTHING is 2HKOd by the appropriate move. The only mon that isn't is Bronzor, and that is easily 3HKOd, meaning with a little prior damage, it tears through everything. The drawback? Elgyem outspeeds practically nothing, so it WILL HAVE TO take a hit. That being said, I could see this as a great wallbreaker.

Specs in LC is generally a terrible idea, as you gain little boost from it over Life Orb. In any case, locking yourself into any of Elygem's moves is asking to be set up on by Murkrow, Scraggy, Misdreavus, Drifloon... the list goes on. Specs Elgyem will lose you far more games than it will win you.

 

[SpecsX]

Specs in LC is generally a terrible idea, as you gain little boost from it over Life Orb. In any case, locking yourself into any of Elygem's moves is asking to be set up on by Murkrow, Scraggy, Misdreavus, Drifloon... the list goes on. Specs Elgyem will lose you far more games than it will win you.

I suppose so, as all of Elgyem's moves have a type that is immune to them(Although Specs Elgyem is not a sweeper, and therefor not designed to win you games on it's own). Analytic already is a LO boost though. I'll run some calcs.

EDIT: Ok, so I've run the calcs, and no noticeable changes jump out at me. Listen to iss and use LO.

 

[Gengan]

Elgyem @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 76 HP/ 240 SAtk / 160 SDef
Quiet Nature
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Recover

EVs are simple; maximised special attack, then the rest help to get the best out of its special bulk.

I believe this is the best we can get out of Elgyem. It doesn't have enough bulk to set up Nasty Plot without getting hurt (I tested this). Sadly, Abra beats it in an offensive role, and Solosis beats it in a defensive role. There's always the support-mon option and TR is somewhat of an option if you opt out of Analytic, but otherwise, this is what we have.

 

[SpecsX]

I agree. I tested LO and it can't really switch in at all. If I could get a free switch-in, i'd put in Abra instead because of magic guard, focus sash, it's speed, etc. Eviolite is the way to go. I could also see a support set working though.

 

[Rowan]

There's always the support-mon option and TR is somewhat of an option if you opt out of Analytic, but otherwise, this is what we have.

Elgyem shouldn't really be used as a support-mon, most of its options are gimmicky at best. Barrier and Calm Mind could be used in conjunction with recover, but it would be best not to bother as you would end up with dreadful coverage. Trick Room shouldn't be bothered with as it is completely outclassed by Solosis. Other options include Dual Screens, which is a waste of time in my opinion, Bronzor's typing makes it better for the job. You mentioned Gravity in the OP which Elgyem has no need for whatsoever. It doesn't have the speed to pull of something like Disable. There is literally no support options that give Elgyem any sort of niche.

The only other options I can think of are Calm Mind and Charge Beam. Charge Beam could be slashed on the set I gave as you can use it to KO a weaker mon and hope for the boost.