esche
Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
Good evening,
I created this thread to address the topic of permanent weather (sand/hail) in DPP UU. In the following, I will outline the state of both in the current metagame.
RE: Sand
Sand in DPP UU is a strategy that exhibits plenty of uncompetitiveness. The main reason for using sand in DPP UU and he most infuriating aspect about it is Sand Veil, which, in perma sand, I hardly need tell you is an utterly chance based ability with no reliable counter play available whatsoever. Frankly, it's ridiculous we let this slide for so long and with the tier lock for old generations having recently been lifted, I don't see any good reason to not go ahead with an outright ban. Sand Veil in perma sand has eluded the Evasion Clause for far too long and it's time we erase it for good.
Now, for the details. Personally, I don't think it should be even up for debate whether Sand Veil in perma sand should be allowed since it clearly violates Evasion Clause but if we want to preserve Pokémon whose only ability is Sand Veil (read: Cacturne) then the preferred course of action should be looking at Sand Stream to avoid any complex bans. On the other hand, one could argue that sand without Sand Veil is neither uncompetitive nor broken and that strategies around Curse Cradily for example should be preserved instead. In the end, it boils down to what we want to preserve: Sand Stream with Sand Veil banned or Sand Veil outside of sand. Either way, something has to happen.
RE: Hail
First off, unlike Sand Veil, Walrein or the concept of hail stall is not classically uncompetitive. The strategies it revolves around aren't chance based. These sets are obnoxious to face but they are somewhat predictable and there exist viable countermeasures (CurseTalk Registeel, Refresh Milotic, Calm Mind Clefable) to the respective sets. Hail stall is not comparable to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag either where the opponent is bereft of the most basic form of counter play - switching out. Such a restriction is not placed upon the opponent here and I felt that it needed to be made clear first that the term "uncompetitive" does not describe the issue with hail adequately. However, if executed correctly, Walrein gets a minimum of 32 turns dealing 6% of damage every turn to the opposition via hail without risk of losing any HP itself. In theory, this accumulates to 200% or two full health bars worth of "free damage" to the opposing team but, realistically, this damage number varies quite a lot. Thanks to Substitute, Walrein gets opportunities where it can throw out attacks while the oppononent is preoccupied with breaking the Substitute. This is utilized to slowly whittle down Pokémon with Leftovers with hail damage effectively denying passive recovery and Walrein attacking when it gets the chance to. Many offensively inclined teams (which constitute a majority of the metagame) without solid defensive backbones to rely on often simply get farmed by Walrein once it's set up. Such teams will often forgo their hail matchup to some extent and instead focus on limiting the opportunities Walrein gets during the game. While hail is certainly not un-combatable in the builder, it should be pointed out that there aren't exactly an abundance of countermeasures for combatting hail stall reliably - particularly on offense. Variants of hail stall can generally broken down into strategies built around different Walrein sets, most notably SubProTox, SubRoar, SubFang or even SubEncore. These are frequently paired with Spikes or T-Spikes support, taking advantage of switches that Walrein forces and further adding to the slow and methodical accumulation of chip damage.
Originally, I intended to make this point about Sand Veil only but since there is a fair bit of consensus in the playerbase about Hail constituting an undesirable element of the metagame, I opted to increase the scope of this thread. Still, there is a discussion to be had about Snow Warning/Walrein first since I don't think it's as clear-cut a case as with the situation of Sand Veil in permanent sand for which there is simply no reasonable argument for keeping around. Similarly, if we opt for a Walrein ban instead of Snow Warning or decide not do anything about hail after all, we might still want to look at Snow Cloak (Glaceon, Piloswine) which, despite not being used, still violates Evasion Clause. In any case, we need to assess first whether hail truly constitutes a problem in the current metagame. Should we agree that it does, the question becomes do we deem Walrein's abilities overpowered or is Snow Warning the perpetrator as it enables this playstyle in the first place? Walrein outside of hail clearly isn't broken but, on the other hand, hail without Walrein in all likelihood isn't broken either.
With all that out of the way here is a summary of our options moving forward:
Re: Sand
1) Ban Sand Stream from DPP UU.
Bye Hippopotas.
2) Ban Sand Veil from DPP UU.
This effectively preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil. However, Cacturne gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.
3) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil from DPP UU.
While this is a complex ban, this too preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil, notably without any collateral.
Note that one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Sand Veil violates Evasion Clause.
Re: Hail
1) Ban Snow Warning from DPP UU.
Bye Snover.
2) Ban Walrein from DPP UU.
Bye Walrein.
3) Do nothing.
Hail remains as is.
Depending on whether we care about consistency and removing Snow Cloak as well there are some more options outlined in the hide tag below.
Ideally, we can settle on a decision before UU Classic starts but I realize this is a bit of a far shot since a process like this takes time. Still, we can set an example and remove these undesirable elements from this iteration of UU Classic preemptively to create a healthier, more enjoyable playing experience. The games played in this years UU Classic can be the foundation of moving in the right direction with the tier.
As for the voter list, here's a preliminary one:
Replays:
What are your thoughts about Sand Stream/Sand Veil and Snow Warning/Walrein in DPP UU and do they warrant a ban?
I created this thread to address the topic of permanent weather (sand/hail) in DPP UU. In the following, I will outline the state of both in the current metagame.
RE: Sand
Sand in DPP UU is a strategy that exhibits plenty of uncompetitiveness. The main reason for using sand in DPP UU and he most infuriating aspect about it is Sand Veil, which, in perma sand, I hardly need tell you is an utterly chance based ability with no reliable counter play available whatsoever. Frankly, it's ridiculous we let this slide for so long and with the tier lock for old generations having recently been lifted, I don't see any good reason to not go ahead with an outright ban. Sand Veil in perma sand has eluded the Evasion Clause for far too long and it's time we erase it for good.
Now, for the details. Personally, I don't think it should be even up for debate whether Sand Veil in perma sand should be allowed since it clearly violates Evasion Clause but if we want to preserve Pokémon whose only ability is Sand Veil (read: Cacturne) then the preferred course of action should be looking at Sand Stream to avoid any complex bans. On the other hand, one could argue that sand without Sand Veil is neither uncompetitive nor broken and that strategies around Curse Cradily for example should be preserved instead. In the end, it boils down to what we want to preserve: Sand Stream with Sand Veil banned or Sand Veil outside of sand. Either way, something has to happen.
RE: Hail
First off, unlike Sand Veil, Walrein or the concept of hail stall is not classically uncompetitive. The strategies it revolves around aren't chance based. These sets are obnoxious to face but they are somewhat predictable and there exist viable countermeasures (CurseTalk Registeel, Refresh Milotic, Calm Mind Clefable) to the respective sets. Hail stall is not comparable to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag either where the opponent is bereft of the most basic form of counter play - switching out. Such a restriction is not placed upon the opponent here and I felt that it needed to be made clear first that the term "uncompetitive" does not describe the issue with hail adequately. However, if executed correctly, Walrein gets a minimum of 32 turns dealing 6% of damage every turn to the opposition via hail without risk of losing any HP itself. In theory, this accumulates to 200% or two full health bars worth of "free damage" to the opposing team but, realistically, this damage number varies quite a lot. Thanks to Substitute, Walrein gets opportunities where it can throw out attacks while the oppononent is preoccupied with breaking the Substitute. This is utilized to slowly whittle down Pokémon with Leftovers with hail damage effectively denying passive recovery and Walrein attacking when it gets the chance to. Many offensively inclined teams (which constitute a majority of the metagame) without solid defensive backbones to rely on often simply get farmed by Walrein once it's set up. Such teams will often forgo their hail matchup to some extent and instead focus on limiting the opportunities Walrein gets during the game. While hail is certainly not un-combatable in the builder, it should be pointed out that there aren't exactly an abundance of countermeasures for combatting hail stall reliably - particularly on offense. Variants of hail stall can generally broken down into strategies built around different Walrein sets, most notably SubProTox, SubRoar, SubFang or even SubEncore. These are frequently paired with Spikes or T-Spikes support, taking advantage of switches that Walrein forces and further adding to the slow and methodical accumulation of chip damage.
Originally, I intended to make this point about Sand Veil only but since there is a fair bit of consensus in the playerbase about Hail constituting an undesirable element of the metagame, I opted to increase the scope of this thread. Still, there is a discussion to be had about Snow Warning/Walrein first since I don't think it's as clear-cut a case as with the situation of Sand Veil in permanent sand for which there is simply no reasonable argument for keeping around. Similarly, if we opt for a Walrein ban instead of Snow Warning or decide not do anything about hail after all, we might still want to look at Snow Cloak (Glaceon, Piloswine) which, despite not being used, still violates Evasion Clause. In any case, we need to assess first whether hail truly constitutes a problem in the current metagame. Should we agree that it does, the question becomes do we deem Walrein's abilities overpowered or is Snow Warning the perpetrator as it enables this playstyle in the first place? Walrein outside of hail clearly isn't broken but, on the other hand, hail without Walrein in all likelihood isn't broken either.
With all that out of the way here is a summary of our options moving forward:
Re: Sand
1) Ban Sand Stream from DPP UU.
Bye Hippopotas.
2) Ban Sand Veil from DPP UU.
This effectively preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil. However, Cacturne gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.
3) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil from DPP UU.
While this is a complex ban, this too preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil, notably without any collateral.
Note that one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Sand Veil violates Evasion Clause.
Re: Hail
1) Ban Snow Warning from DPP UU.
Bye Snover.
2) Ban Walrein from DPP UU.
Bye Walrein.
3) Do nothing.
Hail remains as is.
Depending on whether we care about consistency and removing Snow Cloak as well there are some more options outlined in the hide tag below.
1) Ban Snow Warning from DPP UU.
Bye Snover.
2) Ban Snow Cloak from DPP UU.
This effectively preserves hail stall as is. However, Glaceon gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.
3) Ban Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.
This preserves permanent hail for whatever reason but hail stall is likely done fore. Obviously, this should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.
4) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak from DPP UU.
While this is a complex ban, this too preserves hail stall, notably without any collateral.
5) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.
This preserves permanent hail and Glaceon outside of hail but hail stall is likely done for. This too should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.
Again, one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Snow Cloak violates Evasion Clause.
Bye Snover.
2) Ban Snow Cloak from DPP UU.
This effectively preserves hail stall as is. However, Glaceon gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.
3) Ban Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.
This preserves permanent hail for whatever reason but hail stall is likely done fore. Obviously, this should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.
4) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak from DPP UU.
While this is a complex ban, this too preserves hail stall, notably without any collateral.
5) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.
This preserves permanent hail and Glaceon outside of hail but hail stall is likely done for. This too should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.
Again, one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Snow Cloak violates Evasion Clause.
Ideally, we can settle on a decision before UU Classic starts but I realize this is a bit of a far shot since a process like this takes time. Still, we can set an example and remove these undesirable elements from this iteration of UU Classic preemptively to create a healthier, more enjoyable playing experience. The games played in this years UU Classic can be the foundation of moving in the right direction with the tier.
As for the voter list, here's a preliminary one:
UUPL IX (at least 2 games played, at least 1 win)
TonyFlygon
Heysup
Donphantastic
fatty
Thiago Nunes
Chill Shadow
Tomahawk
JabbaTheGriffin
esche
UUSD I (at least 2 games played, at least 1 win)
MrAldo
Leru
atomicllamas
TSR
UUWC I (at least 1 win)
luisotte
Estarossa
Emeral
byronthewellwell
DrReuniclus
DPP Cup IV (semi-finalists)
Amukamara
LpZ
pokemonisfun
ramolost
DPPPL I (still ongoing, at least 1 win)
Accel
M Dragon
BKC
Malekith
Ark
Lilburr
Other people that should get a say in this but haven't had any recent tournament showings from what I can tell:
august
Eo Ut Mortus
Oglemi
Kushalos
col49
This list would leave us with 34 eligible voters. We could go back further to previous iterations of UUPL and UU Classic to increase this number.
TonyFlygon
Heysup
Donphantastic
fatty
Thiago Nunes
Chill Shadow
Tomahawk
JabbaTheGriffin
esche
UUSD I (at least 2 games played, at least 1 win)
MrAldo
Leru
atomicllamas
TSR
UUWC I (at least 1 win)
luisotte
Estarossa
Emeral
byronthewellwell
DrReuniclus
DPP Cup IV (semi-finalists)
Amukamara
LpZ
pokemonisfun
ramolost
DPPPL I (still ongoing, at least 1 win)
Accel
M Dragon
BKC
Malekith
Ark
Lilburr
Other people that should get a say in this but haven't had any recent tournament showings from what I can tell:
august
Eo Ut Mortus
Oglemi
Kushalos
col49
This list would leave us with 34 eligible voters. We could go back further to previous iterations of UUPL and UU Classic to increase this number.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-564793 - Ark vs esche (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-536902 - TSR vs Eternal Spirit (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-554150 - Tony vs fatty (L)
more soon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-536902 - TSR vs Eternal Spirit (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-554150 - Tony vs fatty (L)
more soon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-555697 - Heysup vs Tony (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-534103 - Eternal Spirit vs Tomahawk (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-535098 - Thiago Nunes vs atomicllamas (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-514166 - esche vs luisotte (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-564713 - Heysup vs Laurel (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4uu-892780674 - august vs Heroic Troller (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-440886 - TSR vs marcop (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-441087 - august vs leru (L)
more soon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-534103 - Eternal Spirit vs Tomahawk (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-535098 - Thiago Nunes vs atomicllamas (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-514166 - esche vs luisotte (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-564713 - Heysup vs Laurel (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4uu-892780674 - august vs Heroic Troller (W)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-440886 - TSR vs marcop (L)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4uu-441087 - august vs leru (L)
more soon
What are your thoughts about Sand Stream/Sand Veil and Snow Warning/Walrein in DPP UU and do they warrant a ban?
Last edited: