DP Togekiss

[wildfire393]

This is a suggsted addition to http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/togekiss


[Set]
name: MixKiss
move1: ExtremeSpeed
move2: Aura Sphere / Focus Punch
move3: Flamethrower / Shadow Ball
move4: Roost / Focus Punch
nature: Naughty/Lonely
ability: Hustle
item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Att / 152 SpA / 104 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>Togekiss is well-known for its high special attack, but due to its ability Hustle, its Attack can be very high as well. This provides Togekiss the ability to surprise and KO some of its usual counters, as well as the ability to end sweeps by frail sweepers.</p>
<p>The key to this set is ExtremeSpeed. With the maximum investment in Attack EVs and a positive Attack Nature, Hustle boosts Togekiss's Attack to 327. When that attack is applied to STAB ExtremeSpeed, it can have devastating results. For example, it deals 47.47% - 55.91% to max defense Blissey, guaranteeing a 2HKO with Stealth Rock and Leftovers taken into account. Similarly, 252 HP / 220 Def Zapdos takes 37.24% - 43.75%, which has the possibility of 2HKOing with Stealth Rock, even through leftovers. These are two of Togekiss's main counters on a standard set, so the ability to deal with them in this way is an obvious boon.</p>

<p>This is especially useful due to the element of surprise. Most players expect Togekiss to be a relatively slow, yet fairly bulky Special attacker, usually relying on ParaFlinching. This can often allow Togekiss to get its first kill unexpectedly, allowing it to end potential sweeps. Here are some calculations for ExtremeSpeed versus common 4 HP / 0 Def sweepers:</p>
<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>

<pre>
Alakazam: 100%
Azelf: 71.92% - 84.59%
Infernape: 70.75% - 83.33%
Weavile: 79.08% - 92.91%
Heracross: 65.89% - 77.48%
Salamence: 56.93% - 67.17%
Gyarados: 57.53% - 67.77%
</pre>
<p>Note that Salamence and Gyarados calculations do not factor in Intimidate</p>

<p>The rest of the set focuses on taking out the Pokemon that can wall Togekiss's ExtremeSpeed effectively. Aura Sphere will always KO 4HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar under Stealth Rock, and has a chance of doing so to 252 HP Tyranitar. It also is effective against many of the Steel types that resist ExtremeSpeed, especially those with a high Def and relatively low SpD. It has a chance to OHKO Heatran with Stealth Rock damage. Focus Punch can be used over Aura Sphere to guarantee the OHKO on Tyranitar and Heatran. It also would provide another possibility against Blissey, guaranteeing a OHKO. However, it requires a much better degree of prediction and will not be effective against many Steel-types, so should only be used if Flamethrower is chosen as the third move, or if Roost is left off the set. Keep in mind, however, that losing Roost makes Togekiss significantly more fragile, especially with no defensive EV investment, Life Orb, and Weakness to Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>As for the third move, Flamethrower provides excellent coverage against Steel types that take Aura Sphere or Focus Punch neutrally. It will OHKO 252 HP Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress. It will also do 71.70% - 84.34% against 252 HP Metagross and will guarantee a 2HKO against (non-Heatproof) Bronzong and Jirachi. Shadow Ball, on the other hand, provides better coverage against Ghost-types, and will OHKO Gengar and 2HKO Dusknoir, who otherwise pose a problem for this set.</p>

<p>The EVs allow Togekiss to outrun max Speed Adamant Tyranitars, such as DDTar, while still allowing for an optimum spread of offensive power. If outrunning Adamant Tyranitar is not a concern, the EVs can be placed into SpA to further increase offensive power or into HP to increase survivability a little. Naughty versus Lonely depends on whether you expect to take Physical Attacks or Special Attacks more. Naughty provides more balanced defenses, while Lonely maximizes Togekiss's high Special Defense, allowing it to more effectively absorb special attacks, which can be useful for switching in on Alakazam, Infernape, or Azelf.</p>

 

[twash]

Please read this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33245

Please.

 

[wildfire393]

Please read this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33245

Please.

I'm not sure precisely what you are trying to say is wrong. This is not a small errorfix. I linked to the analysis. My spelling and capitalization aren't an issue. This isn't a novelty moveset, it is a legitimate additional moveset. Yes, it is a "twist" on the CB Togekiss set, but this twist involves a change in Item, Nature, EVs, and Moveset, which I think warrants its own set.

 

[twash]

Maybe you should actually read all that, and read http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32432 which was clearly linked in that original link :\

There are many spacing issues, missing tags etc. Try "lurking" more and looking at other people's work to get an idea! :D

 

[wildfire393]

Got it, and fixed to mimic the format of sets listed here that you didn't immediately tackle for being poorly formatted.

 

[DarK LamenT]

...without the disadvantage of being walled Physically or being locked into one move.</p>

"Stuck on" isn't very good wording.

It still takes large chunks out of most fragile sweepers, and with Stealth Rock and/or Life Orb damage on those Pokémon to start with, it will end many potential sweeps by frail sweepers, such as Alakazam, Infernape, Azelf, and Gyarados (assuming Gyarados did not switch in and Intimidate beforehand).</p>
<p>A Fighting attack provides coverage on Steel and Rock types. The question comes down to Aura Sphere, which is better against most of these physically defensive walls, versus Focus Punch, which is more powerful, especially against sturdy Special Walls such as Blissey, but requires more prediction. If you feel that both of these are necessary, Roost can be dropped in favor of both. Keep in mind, however, that this Togekiss is significantly more fragile than most other sets, as its EV investments are focused in Attack and Special Attack, rather than any of its defenses or it's Speed. Add Life Orb damage and a weakness to Stealth Rock, and Roost starts to look like a necessity.</p>
<p>As for the third attack, Shadow Ball provides a good option for hitting Ghosts for Super Effective damage, which prevents Ghosts from completely walling this set. Flamethrower provides better coverage against other Steel types like Metagross, Bronzong, Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Jirachi, all of which take Neutral from Fighting and resist Ghost and Normal; but this reduces the ability to effectively counter Ghosts, so it depends which of these your team has more trouble with.</p>

Re-worded some of fit; I think that this had more continuity and some parts are now less likely to be misunderstood. :]

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Have you even tested this set? I don't see how this could possibly work, you basically take everything that is good about Togekiss and then throw it away to use a seemingly random collection of moves. Can you provide us with any actual data that would prove this set to be useful? It just looks like a Togekiss set with no chance of ever getting past its counters.

Extremespeed only has 80% accuracy, you only have 196 Speed, and you have absolutely no defensive investment. Lucario does this set better, as does pretty much everything with a priority move.

Oh, and use proper spacing. What you have now is just a jumbled block of garbage. You also really REALLY need to fix the grammar and spelling throughout this...did you even proofread this?

I'm re-opening this thread since the OP replied to me personally with a much improved edit via PM. I'll give him some time to post it.

I suggested to him that he provide some basic damage calcs, fix the spacing, and change the EV spread. Since he actually took the time to respond, I took the time to test the set and I found the original 252 atk/252 spatk EV spread to be quite lackluster, I almost always found myself wishing that I was faster and/or bulkier.

Discussion should continue once he posts the updated set.

 

[wildfire393]

Set updated with better comments and calculations, as well as with modified EVs.

Now that I've gotten all of the organizational issues taken care of, I'd like to hear what people think.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'd like to actually offer a positive opinion here to revive the discussion i killed on the right foot: this set is much better than it looks, I encourage people to use it. 2HKOing Zapdos and Blissey after SR is so hilariously effective that it HAS to go in...although I do find myself missing with ES more than I'd like thanks to Hustle.

About the EV spread, it is MUCH better. It needs all that Atk to get those 2hkos on Zapdos and Blissey after SR, but its amazing that it can still reliably get around threats that wall other Normal-type STAB sweepers. Togekiss is now the third best Normal type behind Arceus and Blissey!

 

[Caelum]

Your damage calculations are coded incorrectly. Also, truncate the damage at 100%. It doesn't really mater if something does more than 100%. Here, I did it for you.

<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>

<pre>
Alakazam: 100%
Azelf: 71.92% - 84.59%
Infernape: 70.75% - 83.33%
Weavile: 79.08% - 92.91%
Heracross: 65.89% - 77.48%
Salamence: 56.93% - 67.17%
Gyarados: 57.53% - 67.77%
</pre>

You are also missing an Ability tag. Togekiss has 2 abilities, Hustle and Serene Grace. Add Ability: Hustle

Also, your calcs against Blissey / Zapdos, are the natures Bold ? I could figure it out myself but I'm lazy.

I normally test things but I'm having a shitty day so I'm just going to theorymon my comments on this. This is a fancy CB Togekiss, CB Togekiss works, thus this will work too. =)

J7r is a silly person, Snorlax is the best normal type.

 

[Malfunction]

Oh my God this set looks awesome. A few errors here, I suppose:

<p>Togekiss is well-known for its high special attack, but due to its ability Hustle, its Attack can be very high as well. This provides Togekiss the ability to surprise and KO some of its usual counters, as well as the ability to end sweeps by frail sweepers.</p>
<p>The key to this set is ExtremeSpeed. With the maximum investment in Attack EVs and a positive Attack Nature, Hustle boosts Togekiss's Attack to 327. When that attack is applied to STAB ExtremeSpeed, it can have devastating results. For example, it deals 47.47% - 55.91% to max defense Blissey, guaranteeing a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks and Leftovers taken into account. Similarly, 252 HP / 220 Def Zapdos takes 37.24% - 43.75%, which has the possibility of 2HKOing with Stealth Rock, even through leftovers. These are two of Togekiss's main counters on a standard set, so the ability to deal with them in this way is an obvious boon.</p>

<p>This is especially useful due to the element of surprise. Most players expect Togekiss to be a relatively slow, yet fairly bulky Special attacker, usually relying on ParaFlinching. This can often allow Togekiss to get its first kill unexpectedly, allowing it to end potential sweeps. Here are some calculations for ExtremeSpeed versus common 4 HP / 0 Def sweepers:</p>

Tried fixing some stuff (bolded font). You should also specify the sweepers' natures (positive, negative, or neutral) you used in making the calcs. Also, use the format caelum gave you in the previous post to 'align' the damage calcs.

 

[wildfire393]

I'm glad to see that people like the set. It was something I came up with while playing with Choice Band Hustle Togekiss, because I kept getting walled and wished that there was another option for running Hustle + STAB ExtremeSpeed.

Any further suggestions for improvements to this set are welcome, I'd like to hear what people think.

 

[MetaNite]

I think Air Slash, Aura Sphere, and Roost should be the primary options in the last slots. Flamethrower can go over one of them, to hit more Steels.

Also, would it not be better to give it a -Def nature instead of Special Defense? Why waste that impressive base power?

 

[CHENN]

Would Aerial Ace be a possible Option? Since it gets STAB and ignores all accuracy modifiers, it would be perfect on Togekiss. Anyways, I couldn't find anything wrong with the set. Good job!

 

[wildfire393]

I think Air Slash, Aura Sphere, and Roost should be the primary options in the last slots. Flamethrower can go over one of them, to hit more Steels.

Also, would it not be better to give it a -Def nature instead of Special Defense? Why waste that impressive base power?

The problem with Air Slash is that Togekiss is not running Serene Grace, making the flinch chance fairly low. Additionally, Togekiss is slower than most things, meaning that there will be few cases where the flinch chance comes into play. Additionally, it's type coverage is not that good. It only hits one type that Fire does not (Fighting), and is not very effective against two of the same types that ExtremeSpeed is. Additionally, the only type it is neutral against that ExtremeSpeed is not is Ghost, and one of the more-played ghosts (in the Plat Meta, at least) is Electric type, so he resists.
Because ExtremeSpeed is just so powerful, it's best to devote the other slots to attacks that can take down common walls to ExtremeSpeed.

As for -SpD versus -Def, I picked the option that gave it the more balanced defenses. A -Def nature could be picked as well, to make Togekiss geared more towards absorbing Special Attacks, but the two most common special attacks (Thunderbolt and Icebeam) are super-effective anyways, meaning he's better off with defenses that give him a chance of absorbing a few Physical hits, since he's not likely to survive many Special ones.

Would Aerial Ace be a possible Option? Since it gets STAB and ignores all accuracy modifiers, it would be perfect on Togekiss. Anyways, I couldn't find anything wrong with the set. Good job!

Aerial Ace was given consideration, but ultimately passed up for the same reasons listed for Air Slash above (minus the stuff about flinching). It just doesn't provide great type coverage, meaning I can't really come up with a situation in which I would want to use it over ExtremeSpeed or one of the Special Attacks (Flamethrower/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball).

 

[Caelum]

Why Naughty > Lonely. Togekiss has that great 115 Special Defense. Why would you want to ruin it with Naughty. While it's HP & Defense are still good, it takes physical hits significantly worse leading me to believe Lonely is the superior option.

 

[wildfire393]

Why Naughty > Lonely. Togekiss has that great 115 Special Defense. Why would you want to ruin it with Naughty. While it's HP & Defense are still good, it takes physical hits significantly worse leading me to believe Lonely is the superior option.

My theory is that more balanced defenses are preferable, but since you're the second person to suggest this, I will add Lonely as an option in the OP.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, Caelum I agree with wildfire. It is a preference. It's not always about base states, its more about what kind of attacks you will be taking. In the Platinum metagame, priority moves rule everything so I would go Naughty. The things that want to hit you super effective like Electric types you will theoretically kill with Extremespeed anyway where as Scizor's Bullet Punch and Mamoswine's Ice Shard are survivable...

 

[CHENN]

a 2HKO with Stealth Rock(took away the (S)) damage and Leftovers taken into account.

Tyranitar under Stealth Rock(removed (s))

Stealth Rock(removed (s)) damage.

 

[wildfire393]

Some more testing results:

ExtremeSpeed/Aura Sphere/Flamethrower/Roost appears to be the preferable set. Just make sure the team has a way to deal with ghosts that might pop up (a good CB Pursuit user can go a long way, especially if he resists Electric, as the most common ghost in standard right now is Rotom). It frequently scores at least 2 KOs if rocks are up using the following pattern: Bring it in against a frail sweeper on the turn it sets up. Proceed to ExtremeSpeed it to death. If they think their sweeper can't OHKO a standard Togekiss, they will instead switch to one of Togekiss's standard counters: Zapdos or Blissey. It will then eat an ExtremeSpeed and hopefully be KOed by the second. After this first KO, the opponent has realized this is Hustle Togekiss, and will send in something to sponge ExtremeSpeeds. Frequently, this means Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Heatran, or Tyranitar, all of which (with rocks) should die to Aura Sphere or Flamethrower. Heatran I believe might not be KOed, and if they bring in a Ghost it's probably time to get out of there for now (but the good news is, if you switch to a Pursuiter and KO the ghost, you're free to spin away the Rocks to make it easier for Togekiss to come back in), but otherwise Togekiss will suddenly have taken a sizeable chunk out of your opponent's team.

The only things that Togekiss has a difficult time with with this set-up appear to be Ghosts (Spritomb in particular, as not even ShadowBall can deal with him effectively, and it can pretty much never KO rest-talk Spiritomb and just gets PPstalled out) and Walls that are bulky on both ends of the spectrum with no weaknesses Togekiss can exploit (Cresselia, Bulky Waters, Heatproof Bronzong, and Aforementioned Defensive ghosts)

 

[Colonel M]

I'm guessing no one opposes this so I'll give 16 hours for opposing. If no one really opposes, I'll upload it.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Space out the paragraphs, so that it looks right. Just hit "enter" once whenever you see a </p> tag before you upload it, and it will be good.

 

[Colonel M]

Cached. Although nextime, please remember to space everything correctly. Thank you.

 

[darkie]

I cached it. Moving to archive.