DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Forsety]

First: The Drummer set isn't horribly viable. If you want to use SubSalac that already takes up two of your moveslots, and Hypnosis would eat up a third, leaving you with Waterfall which a load of UU pokemon can eat and finish off your 25% remaining HP, Brick Break, which is even weaker than Waterfall and also can be stopped by other Bulky Waters.

What I think would be a problem is just simply how easily the BD variation is setup in any situation really. Its defenses/typing also allow it so its not as vulnerable to priority moves as we would believe actually resisting at least 3 of them. You wouldn't even have to run sub if you're daring enough since most moves come short of 50% on it you could chance a Salac.

As for in general it has everything you mentioned including an option of actually being mixed. (It can get at least 250 on both attacks which is quite good and viable when you have a 150 and 120 STAB respectively).

A more general strategy: fast sleepers often require a sacrifice, you let it kill one thing and then send in a CSed counter. Being a fire type, it isn't like it can just switch in and out willy-nilly either.

Certainly thats completely true. Though I try refrain from mentioning CS because its true for almost anything except certain cases where CS is one of the top benefits. (eg. Typhlosion, Cross etc.) Also Ninetales has the benefit that although its a fire type its rather sturdy and even has fire immunity and a grass resist at least.

 

[Fishin]

Lol at "strike back with a monstrously powerful Spark".

(Thunderbolt will probably do more.)

Luxray basically lacks a special movepool (Thunderbolt and HP are it's only options), though, so most variants are probably going to be physical. Lapras does have higher sp def than def, though IIRC most run some EV's in defense to make up for that.

 

[MrOneOhOne]

Ninetales movepool has to consist of hypnosis/nasty plot (sort of like jynx except jynx is much more frail (still weak to SR), and carrie's SUB). Then it needs a STAB fire move, so your final move is energy ball or dark pulse really, or maybe HP? When you see it's set, I think you can counter it efficiently, but it probably will prove to become to strong. However, I would like to point out that with insomnia, hypno can both status tails or fight back (altho probably nintetails won't be hurting that much) if tails doesn't carry dark pulse. Ninetails probably is predicable now. Should have some testing in UU imo EVEN Though prob looking over at it, it seems threatingly ( is that a word? LOL. probably not)

 

[Deck Knight]

What I think would be a problem is just simply how easily the BD variation is setup in any situation really. Its defenses/typing also allow it so its not as vulnerable to priority moves as we would believe actually resisting at least 3 of them. You wouldn't even have to run sub if you're daring enough since most moves come short of 50% on it you could chance a Salac.

As for in general it has everything you mentioned including an option of actually being mixed. (It can get at least 250 on both attacks which is quite good and viable when you have a 150 and 120 STAB respectively).

When did 250 attack stats become good if you aren't weilding Life Orb? Nevermind in order to achieve it Poliwrath needs to pump EVs into an SA that isn't worth much. Hydro Pump and Focus Blast are innaccurate and won't even take out the Electrics or Grassers that come in, and Focus Punch only has 150 BP guarenteed if you're behind a Sub. It is not at all difficult to do 50% to a Poliwrath that hasn't invested a single EV in defense. Waterfall and Brick Break are grossly underpowered, and without a Salac boost Poliwrath is easily outsped.

To illustrate:

Lets say Poliwrath just switched into a CB Waterfall from Seaking(FUCK YEA!)

Poliwrath used Substitute
Opponent switched to Meganium!

Poliwrath used Belly Drum!
(Attack Max, Salac Activated)
Meganium used Giga Drain!
Poliwrath's Substitute faded.

Now: here are all possible options against 212/148/148 Calm Meganium (354 HP/273 Def/300 SDef):

Waterfall: 48-57% damage
Brick Break: 90-106% damage (OHKOs half the time, Poliwrath gets finished off half the time.)
Ice Punch: 121-142%
Rock Slide: 60-71%
Earthquake: 40-47%

Poliwrath gets an easy out with Ice Punch, but Ice Punch + Waterfall leaves it susceptible to Bulky Waters, and Brick Break + Ice Punch isn't as powerful.

Lets go with 252 HP/84 Def Impish Quagsire:

Waterfall: Immune
Brick Break: 88-104%
Ice Punch: 59-69%
Rock Slide: 29-34%
Earthquake: 78-92%

The recurring pattern here is basically that Brick Break is the only thing Poliwrath can OHKO with, and its a shaky OHKO at that. Now, my calculations have been using 252 Atk Jolly so that Poliwrath can get up to 262 Speed.

Check this: 252/252 Impish Gastrodon:

Waterfall: 85-99%
Brick Break: 79-93%
Ice Punch: 52-62%
Earthquake: 70-82%

Not even Waterfall OHKOs it. Better hope for a flinch.

Now, for Revenge Killers you have Scarf Manectric/Chan/Lee, Shadow Sneak Banette (who incidentely, can come in on Brick Break.) Basically anything with Focus Sash, Choice Banded Sucker Punch (Mightyena+), Extremepseed Linoone, Endversal Ape/Zangoose/Lee, Mach Punch Hitmontop...

In short, there are tens more revenge killers for BellyWrath than there were in Advance, and since Bellywrath is generally a one-shot setup even if you can Wish it back to health, its prospects aren't great.

I like Poliwrath as much as the next, but he doesn't cut the OU Mustard very well and doesn't unbalance UU in any way. We're already saying "BL is to big," so I fail to see why we should take a perfectly viable defensive UU pokemon and bump it up because there's a small chance it might be able to Drum up and kill a single pokemon.

 

[strings805]

When I first looked at the tier list, I was shocked to not see a pokemon who I always thought was pretty damn good. CROBAT! He's not on either OU or BL lists, and since we're not discussing OU here, why isnt he at least on BL? He's the fastest sleeper (casts hypnosis faster than anyone, second fastest is Persian,) with a fairly impressive physical movepool to cover lots of types (Zen Headbut, Cross Poison, Brave Bird, U-turn for escaping.) I know his attack isnt spectacular (Base 90) but his speed with hypnosis makes up for it. Not to mention he gets a recovery move in Roost. He should be on BL for sure, if his medicore attack is a deterrent from putting him higher.

 

[Deck Knight]

Lol at "strike back with a monstrously powerful Spark".

(Thunderbolt will probably do more.)

Rivalry-boosted Spark OR Choice Banded Spark has an effective pre-STAB Base Power of 97.5. If it has both, 146.25. Since Luxray can't do a Specs set, Thunderbolt is a generally inferior option.

In short: Don't discount Spark just because of the 65 Base Power. The fact is it also has a 30% para rate and works well with Luxray's stats, movepool, and ability.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Rivalry-boosted Spark OR Choice Banded Spark has an effective pre-STAB Base Power of 97.5. If it has both, 146.25. Since Luxray can't do a Specs set, Thunderbolt is a generally inferior option.

[ABILITY]
Rivalry
[SHORT DESC]
Move power depends on gender of the opponent.
[LONG DESC]
When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the same gender as itself, the move power increases by 25%. When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the opposite gender, the move power decreases by 25%. The damage is unaltered if either Pokemon has no gender.

 

[Lee]

With regards to Rivalry boosted Spark having a pre-STAB base power of 97.5, I actually work it out to clock in at 81.25. Remember, it's 25%, not 50%.

[ABILITY]
Rivalry
[SHORT DESC]
Move power depends on gender of the opponent.
[LONG DESC]
When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the same gender as itself, the move power increases by 25%. When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the opposite gender, the move power decreases by 25%. The damage is unaltered if either Pokemon has no gender.

Unless that has been proven to be inaccurate, in which case I apologise.

With Ninetales, both Grumpig and Hypno make great counters. They can both use Thunder Wave and boast brilliant Special Defence, but it is their abilities that truly defines them as a Ninetales counter. Insomnia blocks Hypnosis, whereas Thick Fat forces Ninetales to use Energy Ball. Granted they can't deal much damage back, but paralysis and repeated STAB attacks/Seismic Tosses should be enough to class them both as good counters.

Rapidash can also come in on any attack bar Hypnosis, and use it's superior speed to Hypnosis Ninetales or use powerful Choice Band attacks. (Random Fact: A 1000 special attack Energy Ball does a maximum of 63% to min/min Ninetales).

It's certainly not uncounterable, but could prove to be too powerful. I think it deserves testing.

 

[Deck Knight]

[ABILITY]
Rivalry
[SHORT DESC]
Move power depends on gender of the opponent.
[LONG DESC]
When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the same gender as itself, the move power increases by 25%. When this Pokemon attacks an opponent of the opposite gender, the move power decreases by 25%. The damage is unaltered if either Pokemon has no gender.

Wow. That really, really sucks. No wonder Luxray wasn't working out well when I was testing it. I dodn't even know Rivalry had that drawback. Wow, that uh, sucks.

 

[Murkrow]

I argue this is a sign that we have far too many BL pokemon currently, similarly, we'll probably need to add 2 more tiers now that so many pokemon exist.

I'm inclined to agree, but I also understand Mekkah's point. To some extent I think we are being a little too conservative with regards to what is too powerful for UU. For example, we could be constructing UU with Arbok, Seaking, and Pidgeot in mind, in which case Aggron, Grumpig, and Hypno would all be too powerful and thus BL.

But since everything (not literally) got improved this generation, I would imagine that the top tier of UU got much better as well, and that the bottom Pokemon of BL can be moved down to reflect that.

With that said, I really like Lee's points both on this page and previous regarding Ninetales and Pinsir - I agree with him that they should remain UU for now.

 

[Fishin]

Based on DeckKnight's calculations...it looks to me like there's no problem with Poliwrath being UU. He can use Hypnosis/Focus Punch, but unlike Breloom he's not doing it with 130 base attack or a 100% accurate sleep move (nor does he have poison heal), and I haven't done the calcs but judging by the fact that the counters DeckKnight listed often aren't OHKO'd by whatever move Poliwrath is using even with Belly Drum, they'll most likely be able to take a Focus Punch and take less than 50%.


Regarding the general tier situation...one thing it's important to note is that the number of pokemon that need to be placed in tiers has indeed gone up, but that doesn't mean that the gaps in power between the pokemon have. If the number of tiers is increased, the differences between the tiers will get even smaller and harder to determine.

 

[MrOneOhOne]

Yea, I think unless people have thoroughly tested some of these pokemon, it's best to put them on waiting list of some sort before we determine their tier placement.

 

[X-Act]

That news was posted in July. Now it's October. Come on, it's rather old now.

Also, who says that Thunderbolt isn't Rivalry-boosted (or Rivalry-attenuated) as well? It doesn't need to be a physical attack. Rivalry's x1.25 or x0.75 affects ALL attacks, not just the physical ones.

Rivalry depends on the target Pokemon, not on the move.

 

[ODDish]

Would Exeggutor be a possibility for testing in UU?

On papar it seems that there are a number of potential counters in UU ... of course I have no experience of using it so I'm probably wrong.

 

[Davimert]

Leaf Storm coming from 573 SpA (With Specs)?
That's pretty deadly y'know.

 

[ODDish]

We're considering Glaceon and that has a similar special stat :/

 

[Brazeku]

Glaceon and exeggutor are not equivalent, even if they have similar special stats. Exeggutor is a psychic resist who benefits massively from sunny day, which is actually a viable strat in UU. He gains status effects, explosion, and recovery. All he really has to do to do his job is sleep one thing and explode on another; anything else is gravy. You can even use exeggutor in Ubers because of groudon.

Glaceon gets icebeam and shadow ball, an SR weak typing, wish, and I guess covet. It hits really hard, and that's about it.

 

[ODDish]

I didn't actually say they were equivalent or even similar ...

Davimert pointed out that with Choice Specs Exeggutor's sp. att. is 573, and that that was "pretty deadly". I was merely pointing out that Choice Spec's Glaceon's sp. att. is similar park, it's actually higher 589, and that Glaceon is being tested in spite of this. Therefore high attack values alone should not automatically be an exclusionary factor.

Whilst I may not have used Exeggutor too much, I think I've playing pokemon long enough to have figured out that a grass/psychic and ice type are very different ; )

You have however raised a number of interesting things that I would ask you to expand upon if you will ...

"Exeggutor is a psychic resist" - is that really of tremendous benefit in the UU environment?

"it benefits massively from sunny day," - true, but so do others and Sunny Day requires a turn or another pokemon to set it up.

"He gains status effects, explosion, and recovery." - OK but running all three would limit it to one attack, which one would presume would be either Grass, Psychic or possibly HP Fire. Wouldn't that be easily walled? To get decent type coverage he's going to have to for go one of those.

"All he really has to do to do his job is sleep one thing and explode on another, everything else is gravy" - So Banette effectively stops him doing his job? There are others that can switch into to either Sleep Powder or Explosion ...

No offence but I really don't see how Exeggutor being used in Ubers is relavent to this discussion, there is no Groundon equivalent in UU.

 

[Trust]

I have a couple of questions, that are about 3 Ubers (I know that this is about BL/UU). I wonder why Lati@s are banned in Standard Game if they don't go with Soul Dew...
But the second one is about something more near to the thread: Wobbuffet. GameFreak fixed the problem with Shadow Tag. Then, what is the problem with it? It's easy to counter: a Ghost with Physical attacks won't have problems, and a Dark with Special ones neighter (McGar, Houndoom, Dusknoir, Spiritomb...). Also, with Taunt, it can't encore. Furthermore, they add Shed Skin too.

What is the problem with him?

 

[Brazeku]

I didn't actually say they were equivalent or even similar ...

Davimert pointed out that with Choice Specs Exeggutor's sp. att. is 573, and that that was "pretty deadly". I was merely pointing out that Choice Spec's Glaceon's sp. att. is similar park, it's actually higher 589, and that Glaceon is being tested in spite of this. Therefore high attack values alone should not automatically be an exclusionary factor.

Okay, sorry bout that.

"Exeggutor is a psychic resist" - is that really of tremendous benefit in the UU environment?

Yes, actually, psychic is more common in UU than in OU. Hypno and grumpig both run it frequently enough, and it's used to counter certain poison threats like nidoking and muk, plus folks like the hitmons.

"it benefits massively from sunny day," - true, but so do others and Sunny Day requires a turn or another pokemon to set it up.

I think exeggutor may benefit the most[i/]. Solar beam off a big satk, then a speed boost plus the possibility of enhanced recovery.

"He gains status effects, explosion, and recovery." - OK but running all three would limit it to one attack, which one would presume would be either Grass, Psychic or possibly HP Fire. Wouldn't that be easily walled? To get decent type coverage he's going to have to for go one of those.

I wasn't talking about running them all on one set, I was making a reference to exeggutor's adaptability and possible variations in moveset.

"All he really has to do to do his job is sleep one thing and explode on another, everything else is gravy" - So Banette effectively stops him doing his job? There are others that can switch into to either Sleep Powder or Explosion ...

So what? Just because there are pokemon that can counter one strategy (which only comprises half a moveset which the poke isn't restricted to in any way) in UU doesn't mean that the countered poke is UU. It doesn't have anything to do with that. The fact is that a sleep move and explosion are simply a great combo that few things get access to.

No offence but I really don't see how Exeggutor being used in Ubers is relavent to this discussion, there is no Groundon equivalent in UU.

It's a reference to eggy's power under sunny day. Like I said, I don't think any other pokemon benefits quite as much as he does. It's effectively saying that eggy can compete in the uber environment under sunny day. So what if you need to, worst case scenario, sacrifice some other UU poke to put up SunnyD if you're getting that kind of power out of it? Most rain dancers who come out to cancel the weather are wiped out by sunnybeam, only a scarfed fire type can outspeed him (so therefore, likely not ninetales), and with no houndoom in UU...

I have run exeggutor since RBY, back when he was basically an insane powerhouse. The split and dark types weakened him, then chlorophyll boosted him a little, but putting him in UU is not, in my estimation, a good idea. Feel free to try him out if you disagree.

 

[ODDish]

I have run exeggutor since RBY, back when he was basically an insane powerhouse. The split and dark types weakened him, then chlorophyll boosted him a little, but putting him in UU is not, in my estimation, a good idea. Feel free to try him out if you disagree.

I'm not suggesting we put him anywhere, I'm simply trying to play devils advocate and suggest that as one of the lesser used BL pokemon we try him in UU, because at the moment the BL tier is bigger than UU. If no counter is forthcoming then back to BL he goes ...

 

[Forsety]

I'm not terribly fond of the idea either at all.

Exeggutor is an incredible and versatile powerhouse that anyone even the village idiot can use to incredible effect in any environment.

If it weren't for the fact Heat Rock was introduced I would be tempted to consider it but as a user of Eggy myself the only problems I ever had was two. Blissey and 4 turns of Sunnyday only which can be stalled out and I'd have to recharge alot more often.

Pinsir is probably one of the largest threats it can face but besides having to be Scarf'd most of the time.(Pinsir loses alot of versatility from beign Scarf'd) Facing a possible HP Fire boosted and Psychic which could OHKO.

Isn't there any other BL's that could be considered instead?

 

[Thunderpup]

Glaceon and exeggutor are not equivalent, even if they have similar special stats. Exeggutor is a psychic resist who benefits massively from sunny day, which is actually a viable strat in UU. He gains status effects, explosion, and recovery. All he really has to do to do his job is sleep one thing and explode on another; anything else is gravy. You can even use exeggutor in Ubers because of groudon.

Glaceon gets icebeam and shadow ball, an SR weak typing, wish, and I guess covet. It hits really hard, and that's about it.

Not to mention grass/psychic is pretty terrible typing. He'll be hit hard from 1 of 7 different super-effective attacks :D!!!

 

[ODDish]

Isn't there any other BL's that could be considered instead?

We're rapidly running out ...

er ... Zangoose? Hariyama?

 

[Trust]

Sorry, but what about Wobbuffet? is there any reason to be in Uber? It should be tested in the Standard game, the same as the Lati@s brothers. In my opinion, if Wobbuffet was alowed, it'd be BL. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.