Metagame Doubles Ubers

[jack_]

>> Pokemon Home VR updates! <<​

About a month and a half has passed since Pokemon Home shook up the new tier, dropping a variety of new Pokemon at the traditional DUber power level. This metagame is far from settled, but with the help of Lord Death Man, Yuichi, Smudge, zee, DaAwesomeDude1, and laptops, new viability rankings exist to help you get an idea of the strength level of various Pokemon in the tier. You can see the full updated VR in the first post of this thread. Feel free to make your own nominations in this thread!

>>Tier 1<<

• Arceus - Arceus's raw 720 BST and wide movepool give it extreme versatility. The standard "Ekiller" Swords Dance ExtremeSpeed set offers a powerful tool against any team, bypassing major forms of Speed control and hitting the majority of the tier for 2HKOs, as well as some OHKOs. Arceus can be combined with Chien-Pao and Tera Normal to push its ExtremeSpeed damage to ridiculous levels; for example, after a Swords Dance, 252 HP Groudon faints to that combination. In addition to natural STAB ExtremeSpeed, Arceus's Normal-type gives it an important immunity to Calyrex-Shadow's spread Astral Barrage. Its wide movepool gives it a myriad of setup options including Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Cosmic Power, and Recover. It also can effectively run many support moves, including Trick Room, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Stealth Rock, and Tailwind.
• Calyrex-Shadow - Calyrex-Shadow was already a great Pokemon last generation, but Terastallization gives it a huge buff compared to just about any other DUber. Calyrex's high-damage spread Astral Barrage is now complimented with a potent coverage option in Tera Blast, something it was previously lacking. Calyrex commonly Terastallizes to a Fighting-type to resist Dark-type attacks and have a strong attack to hit Arceus, but Normal-type also sees play to become immune to Astral Barrage in the mirror, and Ghost can push an Astral Barrage sweep even further. Although it lost Expanding Force, it still has powerful support options in Imprison Trick Room or fast Will-o-Wisp, and can use Psyshock to hit Assault Vest Pokemon trying to tank Astral Barrage.
• Kyogre - Kyogre is relatively unchanged from previous generations - Water Spout is a 150 BP spread move boosted by Rain, and that will never not be good. It excels both as a Choice Scarf user and with a boosting item on Tailwind offense teams.

>>Tier 2<<

• Koraidon - Koraidon matches up fairly well into tier 1. Orichalcum Pulse limits Kyogre severely by setting up Sun, and thanks to Orichalcum Pulse boosting attack in Sun by ~1.3333x, very little investment is required for Koraidon to pick up a clean OHKO on even 252 HP Normal-type Arceus with Collision Course, its signature move that gains an extra 1.3333x damage multiplier when the attack is super effective. By using an Assault Vest, it can avoid a 3HKO from Calyrex-Shadow's Astral Barrage fairly easily. AV Koraidon has plenty of moves to pick from, including Breaking Swipe, Flare Blitz, Flame Charge, U-turn, and Dragon Claw. Collision Course is typically preferred to Close Combat, since the power difference is low and defense drops suck, but it can be used for extra breaking power vs targets that Close Combat is not super effective against (e.g. neutral Arceus forms). Quad weakness to Fairy sucks since you usually want to commit your Terastallization elsewhere, and Koraidon can also be exploited by switching in the opposing Kyogre to turn off its attack boost.
• Magearna - Soul-Heart is still one of the best Abilities ever created, giving Magearna a boost any time a Pokemon anywhere on the field faints. Unlike last generation where Magearna had to deal with extreme role competition in Zacian and a lack of good alternate Trick Room setters, both downsides are less relevant now. Many viable alternate Trick Room setters exist, including Arceus, Lunar Blessing Cresselia, and a new Dialga, and old mainstay Calyrex-Ice is still present too. Underestimate the snowball potential of Magearna at your peril - it's not likely to OHKO anything immediately, but with a partner pressuring heavy damage and passively gaining Sp. Atk boosts, an unchecked Magearna will wreck you. At the same time, Soul-Heart counterplay has been more thoroughly developed as the years went on - understanding board states vs Magearna, such as when is appropriate to take a knockout, is vital counterplay that is relatively unchanged from last generation.
• Miraidon - Occasionally presented as "more broken than old Zacian-Crowned or Mega Rayquaza", Miraidon doesn't quite live up to the hype, but is still extremely solid. Unlike Koraidon, Miraidon's Hadron Engine activates Electric Terrain, which stacks its Sp. Atk boost on top of the Electric Terrain base power boost. If Electro Drift is super effective, that mon is dead - even max HP / max Sp. Def Assault Vest Kyogre will fall to a Life Orb Electro Drift. Of course, Electro Drift will not always be super effective, so you'll have to settle for around 75% damage on say, max HP Arceus. Electric Terrain also tends to be more useful than the sun Koraidon provides, giving Iron Bundle a free Quark Drive boost and providing Spore immunity for allies. Volt Switch can be used for momentum, and Draco Meteor chunks would-be checks like AV Groudon for ridiculous amounts of damage. It's worth noting that Miraidon is not often getting raw OHKOs - it's normally chunking Pokemon for 80+%. Don't get me wrong, that's really good, but it means it's often susceptible to damage trades, where you survive the hit and do something impactful back. That's why Choice Scarf is also viably used, to still get 2HKOs while gaining an advantage in Speed over Pokemon like Zacian. I personally think Miraidon is likely to rise to tier 1 status, but time will tell.
• Tornadus - Prankster Tailwind was really good last generation, but it's even better in this generation thanks to Covert Cloak and Bleakwind Storm. Thanks to Covert Cloak, Fake Out isn't a great way to stop Tailwind. If you're not worried about Fake Out, classic items like Focus Sash or Mental Herb will also serve you well. Bleakwind Storm is a spread move that can potentially lower Speed, giving Tornadus something very meaningful to do beside Kyogre in Tailwind. Icy Wind and Taunt are still useful support moves too. Tailwind offense is always great in high power level formats, and Tornadus is far and away the best Tailwind setter.
• Zacian-Crowned - Zacian's nerf turns it from a tier-defining, use it on every team staple to a really good Pokemon that has a bit more counterplay. Unlike last generation where Zacian had more flexibility in its move choices and EVs, in this generation it pretty much always wants Jolly nature with Behemoth Blade, Play Rough, and Close Combat. It's much harder to get away with Adamant with how important outspeeding the bike legendaries to OHKO with Play Rough is. Close Combat gives you a way to pressure a knockout on Arceus, whose ExtremeSpeed Zacian importantly resists. Overall, it's much easier to predict Zacian's set, and its inherent value of being a check to Dynamaxed Pokemon has made its overall value decrease, but it's nevertheless very solid.

>>Tier 3<<

• Arceus-Ground - Arceus-Ground's advantage over Ekiller is initial STAB Earthquake. All the Pokemon we've looked at so far, except Tornadus, don't resist Ground-type moves. After a Dragon Dance, Arceus-Ground threatens KOs on many of tier 1/2. One downside with all alternate Arceus forms is that their typing is now revealed at Team Preview, which removes the surprise value it had in past generations. As stated, there aren't many Flying-immunes in DUbers right now, which also means there's not a ton of partners to EQ by - you may have to spend Terastallization on a Flying-type Tera to facilitate Earthquake.
• Amoonguss - Even with Miraidon, Spore, Rage Powder, and Pollen Puff are still good moves. It doesn't appreciate that Arceus can bypass its Rage Powder with Extreme Speed (assuming Trick Room's not up), as well as the generally higher power of the tier, but it still serves as both an effective way to get up Trick Room as well as an effective check to opposing Trick Room.
• Calyrex-Ice - Glacial Lance now has 2 new Dragon-type Pokemon to snag OHKOs on, and Terastallization gives Calyrex a way to get rid of its awful typing or push Glacial Lance even further with Tera Ice. Like usual, it is heavily dependent on Trick Room, and also comes at the opportunity cost of not running the extremely busted Calyrex-Shadow.
• Chien-Pao primarily serves the purpose of powering up already great physical attackers, but it also serves as a soft check to many valuable Pokemon. Sucker Punch forces Calyrex to not click Astral Barrage or else Terastallize, Ice Spinner does heavy damage to the bike legendaries (although it shares the same 135 Speed stat with them), and Taunt prevents status moves, which tends to be more valuable than the comparably weak Sacred Sword.
• Groudon - Groudon's Precipice Blades continue to be solid offensively, hitting the majority of the tier for at least neutral damage. It suffers from competition with Koraidon, though, and although it does technically trade into Miraidon, I wouldn't call it a favorable trade. Still, an Electric immunity is valuable, and forcing Miraidon to take a -2 Sp. Atk drop can neuter it for allies to help.
• Indeedee-Female - Indeedee's traits give it plenty to consider over Amoonguss as a redirection role, with an important immunity to Astral Barrage and Psychic Surge, stopping Ekiller's main form of damage output (and sometimes both if it runs Shadow Claw), and neutering Miraidon. It can even use Trick Room now. Unlike Amoonguss's Spore, though, it has almost no offensive pressure whatsoever. You wall Arceus, sure, but you better have a good way of actually knocking it out, or else it'll just set up a free Swords Dance and switch in its ally Miraidon whenever it's ready to attack.
• Rayquaza - Rayquaza offers a number of attributes that other Pokemon lack - it can immediately turn off both sun and rain, including Protosynthesis boosts, and offers a Ground resist in a format desperate for one. Still, it has significant hurdles - it no longer has access to V-create, it doesn't like the bike legendaries' ability to outspeed and OHKO it, and Flying STAB is not as spammable as in previous generations. It does have access to Stealth Rock and U-turn in this generation, but it faces pretty severe competition as a physical attacker with Arceus.
• Ting-Lu - Ting-Lu works well as a hard stop to Calyrex-Shadow, taking almost nothing from Astral Barrage and laughing at Tera Blast. It also serves as an soft check to Miraidon, being one of the Ground-types actually able to tank 2 Draco Meteors from Life Orb Miraidon, though it doesn't threaten a KO in return with Stomping Tantrum. It's going to typically be used to set hazards, halve Pokemon's HP with Ruination, and check special attackers the best it can otherwise.
• Zamazenta-Crowned - Zamazenta importantly lost Coaching between generations, though it did gain a much more reliable STAB in Body Press. Zamazenta still has excellent utility with Wide Guard and Snarl to slow down special attackers, and its passiveness last generation is somewhat mitigated by Body Press's more immediate damage. Last options include Howl to copium about Coaching being gone, as well as Iron Defense to boost Body Press's damage.

>>Tier 4<<

• Arceus-Dark - checks Calyrex-Shadow immediately. Going to be used more as a support role with possibly Trick Room or Will-o-Wisp. Struggles with offensive pressure on the board.
• Arceus-Ghost - Ekiller that starts off as default Ghost. Pretty mid if you ask me.
• Arceus-Water - Another support Arceus for getting off important status conditions, with a solid starting Water-type, which only Miraidon really exploits. A Kyogre with Recover is not always easy to beat.
• Chi-Yu - Chi-Yu powers up the special attackers like Calyrex-Shadow or Miraidon even more. It struggles solo vs the much faster tier and with Kyogre, with Choice Scarf and Focus Sash both having their own problems.
• Cresselia - Difficult to KO without Calyrex-Shadow, and Lunar Blessing can keep sweepers healthy to prepare for a second Trick Room. Ally Switch buys sweepers occasional free turns.
• Dialga-Origin - Bulkier Dialga. A sort of midground between a Trick Room setter that's hard to quickly KO while also having solid damage output in TR.
• Dondozo + Tatsugiri - Although Dondozo despises Miraidon, +2 omniboost Unaware can still trade effectively with many powerful Pokemon; standard SD Ekiller, for example, does only 15% with Extreme Speed. Much harder to commit two slots to the combo since Tatsugiri is extremely useless in most matchups.
• Eternatus - Cosmic Power + Recover + Terastallizing out of the Dragon weakness can allow Eternatus to wall whole teams, with the right counterplay available to its faster checks. Very passive, but high reward if setup is possible.
• Flutter Mane - Protosynthesis gives Flutter Mane a free Choice Scarf in a tier with bike legendaries to Moonblast and a natural immunity to Extreme Speed. Struggles to keep up with the power level.
• Grimmsnarl - Screens are good. Prankster Parting Shot is good. It's pretty difficult to KO Grimmsnarl in a single blow with Zacian less ubiquitous.
• Iron Bundle - Free Quark Drive with Miraidon frees up Focus Sash, a requirement to tank the massive special attacks being thrown around. Fast Icy Wind serves as an alternate form of Speed control to Tailwind, and Freeze-Dry + Hydro Pump hits most of the tier for reasonable damage. Outspeeds a Kyogre in Tailwind if Quark Drive is active.
• Iron Hands - Best Fake Out Pokemon available for Trick Room, and gets a free 1.3x Attack boost if Miraidon was on the board. Bulk is not as impressive by DUbers standards, but can still get the job done.
• Kingambit -Threatens Calyrex-Shadow with Sucker Punch while being a sturdier switch-in than Urshifu or Chien-Pao.
• Palkia - Kyogre resist that isn't committed to a particular item. Works better in Trick Room.
• Palkia-Origin - Kyogre resist that works better out of Trick Room. Has a lot of competition with other, faster Dragons.
• Regieleki - Benefits from Miraidon's Electric Terrain and functions like a more offensive Iron Bundle.
• Urshifu-Single-Strike - More offensive than Kingambit, and has Close Combat to smack Arceus for more damage. Unblockable contact moves courtesy of Unseen Fist are never going to be bad.
• Ursaluna - Amoonguss-proof Trick Room sweeper. Takes advantage of Ground weaknesses, immune to Calyrex, but requires a lot of setup to be most effective in Trick Room.

I think this lacks a lot of the more niche options.

• Iron Leaves - Don't ask. I don't know why, but this has consistently worked for me. If played into sunny weather, it immediately checks Kyogre with Solar Blade. If played into electric terrain or psychic terrain, Psyblade gains extra damage and can check Koraidon. If given the Booster Energy and a decent EV distribution, it can outspeed a life orb Miraidon. Additionally, you can give it Sacred Sword so it can hit Arceus fairly hard.
• Regidrago - Under the protection of Wide Guard, this absolute gem can create destruction among non-fairy and non-steel types. A more VGC-esque build with tera steel and Tera Blast creates a scenario where it can even break through flutter mane.
• Enamorus-T - A nice bonus trick room option. I think it should be included specifically on teams with Dialga's Origin forme so you can safely swap it in after setting your hazards and/or trick room. Alongside Calyrex's Ice Rider forme, this thing can win wars.
• Walking Wake - Funny sun counter lmao. Benefits from both rain and sun. Stupidly annoying to watch your Ground-types/Fire-types go down in one hit to this thing.
• Iron Moth - Why the heck is this thing not in Tier 4 at the least? On a sun-oriented team, Iron Moth's Heat Wave can devastate Magearna, Calyrex-Ice, Brute Bonnet, Amoonguss, and Kingambit.
• Brute Bonnet - A bulkier Amoonguss. Loaded Dice + Bullet Seed + Protosynthesis on its Attack stat + 0 Speed IVs + Spore = Kyogre OHKO, quick work of Dondozo, and a good way to check Ursaluna. Now this might seem like a multitude of conditions, but with proper setup, this thing makes Amoonguss look like a cupcake.
• Annihilape - I can't be asked to explain this one. Scarfed Max HP Final Gambit Abuser.
  
  (Image is satire btw)

>> Pokemon Home VR updates! <<​

About a month and a half has passed since Pokemon Home shook up the new tier, dropping a variety of new Pokemon at the traditional DUber power level. This metagame is far from settled, but with the help of Lord Death Man, Yuichi, Smudge, zee, DaAwesomeDude1, and laptops, new viability rankings exist to help you get an idea of the strength level of various Pokemon in the tier. You can see the full updated VR in the first post of this thread. Feel free to make your own nominations in this thread!

>>Tier 1<<

• Arceus - Arceus's raw 720 BST and wide movepool give it extreme versatility. The standard "Ekiller" Swords Dance ExtremeSpeed set offers a powerful tool against any team, bypassing major forms of Speed control and hitting the majority of the tier for 2HKOs, as well as some OHKOs. Arceus can be combined with Chien-Pao and Tera Normal to push its ExtremeSpeed damage to ridiculous levels; for example, after a Swords Dance, 252 HP Groudon faints to that combination. In addition to natural STAB ExtremeSpeed, Arceus's Normal-type gives it an important immunity to Calyrex-Shadow's spread Astral Barrage. Its wide movepool gives it a myriad of setup options including Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Cosmic Power, and Recover. It also can effectively run many support moves, including Trick Room, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Stealth Rock, and Tailwind.
• Calyrex-Shadow - Calyrex-Shadow was already a great Pokemon last generation, but Terastallization gives it a huge buff compared to just about any other DUber. Calyrex's high-damage spread Astral Barrage is now complimented with a potent coverage option in Tera Blast, something it was previously lacking. Calyrex commonly Terastallizes to a Fighting-type to resist Dark-type attacks and have a strong attack to hit Arceus, but Normal-type also sees play to become immune to Astral Barrage in the mirror, and Ghost can push an Astral Barrage sweep even further. Although it lost Expanding Force, it still has powerful support options in Imprison Trick Room or fast Will-o-Wisp, and can use Psyshock to hit Assault Vest Pokemon trying to tank Astral Barrage.
• Kyogre - Kyogre is relatively unchanged from previous generations - Water Spout is a 150 BP spread move boosted by Rain, and that will never not be good. It excels both as a Choice Scarf user and with a boosting item on Tailwind offense teams.

>>Tier 2<<

• Koraidon - Koraidon matches up fairly well into tier 1. Orichalcum Pulse limits Kyogre severely by setting up Sun, and thanks to Orichalcum Pulse boosting attack in Sun by ~1.3333x, very little investment is required for Koraidon to pick up a clean OHKO on even 252 HP Normal-type Arceus with Collision Course, its signature move that gains an extra 1.3333x damage multiplier when the attack is super effective. By using an Assault Vest, it can avoid a 3HKO from Calyrex-Shadow's Astral Barrage fairly easily. AV Koraidon has plenty of moves to pick from, including Breaking Swipe, Flare Blitz, Flame Charge, U-turn, and Dragon Claw. Collision Course is typically preferred to Close Combat, since the power difference is low and defense drops suck, but it can be used for extra breaking power vs targets that Close Combat is not super effective against (e.g. neutral Arceus forms). Quad weakness to Fairy sucks since you usually want to commit your Terastallization elsewhere, and Koraidon can also be exploited by switching in the opposing Kyogre to turn off its attack boost.
• Magearna - Soul-Heart is still one of the best Abilities ever created, giving Magearna a boost any time a Pokemon anywhere on the field faints. Unlike last generation where Magearna had to deal with extreme role competition in Zacian and a lack of good alternate Trick Room setters, both downsides are less relevant now. Many viable alternate Trick Room setters exist, including Arceus, Lunar Blessing Cresselia, and a new Dialga, and old mainstay Calyrex-Ice is still present too. Underestimate the snowball potential of Magearna at your peril - it's not likely to OHKO anything immediately, but with a partner pressuring heavy damage and passively gaining Sp. Atk boosts, an unchecked Magearna will wreck you. At the same time, Soul-Heart counterplay has been more thoroughly developed as the years went on - understanding board states vs Magearna, such as when is appropriate to take a knockout, is vital counterplay that is relatively unchanged from last generation.
• Miraidon - Occasionally presented as "more broken than old Zacian-Crowned or Mega Rayquaza", Miraidon doesn't quite live up to the hype, but is still extremely solid. Unlike Koraidon, Miraidon's Hadron Engine activates Electric Terrain, which stacks its Sp. Atk boost on top of the Electric Terrain base power boost. If Electro Drift is super effective, that mon is dead - even max HP / max Sp. Def Assault Vest Kyogre will fall to a Life Orb Electro Drift. Of course, Electro Drift will not always be super effective, so you'll have to settle for around 75% damage on say, max HP Arceus. Electric Terrain also tends to be more useful than the sun Koraidon provides, giving Iron Bundle a free Quark Drive boost and providing Spore immunity for allies. Volt Switch can be used for momentum, and Draco Meteor chunks would-be checks like AV Groudon for ridiculous amounts of damage. It's worth noting that Miraidon is not often getting raw OHKOs - it's normally chunking Pokemon for 80+%. Don't get me wrong, that's really good, but it means it's often susceptible to damage trades, where you survive the hit and do something impactful back. That's why Choice Scarf is also viably used, to still get 2HKOs while gaining an advantage in Speed over Pokemon like Zacian. I personally think Miraidon is likely to rise to tier 1 status, but time will tell.
• Tornadus - Prankster Tailwind was really good last generation, but it's even better in this generation thanks to Covert Cloak and Bleakwind Storm. Thanks to Covert Cloak, Fake Out isn't a great way to stop Tailwind. If you're not worried about Fake Out, classic items like Focus Sash or Mental Herb will also serve you well. Bleakwind Storm is a spread move that can potentially lower Speed, giving Tornadus something very meaningful to do beside Kyogre in Tailwind. Icy Wind and Taunt are still useful support moves too. Tailwind offense is always great in high power level formats, and Tornadus is far and away the best Tailwind setter.
• Zacian-Crowned - Zacian's nerf turns it from a tier-defining, use it on every team staple to a really good Pokemon that has a bit more counterplay. Unlike last generation where Zacian had more flexibility in its move choices and EVs, in this generation it pretty much always wants Jolly nature with Behemoth Blade, Play Rough, and Close Combat. It's much harder to get away with Adamant with how important outspeeding the bike legendaries to OHKO with Play Rough is. Close Combat gives you a way to pressure a knockout on Arceus, whose ExtremeSpeed Zacian importantly resists. Overall, it's much easier to predict Zacian's set, and its inherent value of being a check to Dynamaxed Pokemon has made its overall value decrease, but it's nevertheless very solid.

>>Tier 3<<

• Arceus-Ground - Arceus-Ground's advantage over Ekiller is initial STAB Earthquake. All the Pokemon we've looked at so far, except Tornadus, don't resist Ground-type moves. After a Dragon Dance, Arceus-Ground threatens KOs on many of tier 1/2. One downside with all alternate Arceus forms is that their typing is now revealed at Team Preview, which removes the surprise value it had in past generations. As stated, there aren't many Flying-immunes in DUbers right now, which also means there's not a ton of partners to EQ by - you may have to spend Terastallization on a Flying-type Tera to facilitate Earthquake.
• Amoonguss - Even with Miraidon, Spore, Rage Powder, and Pollen Puff are still good moves. It doesn't appreciate that Arceus can bypass its Rage Powder with Extreme Speed (assuming Trick Room's not up), as well as the generally higher power of the tier, but it still serves as both an effective way to get up Trick Room as well as an effective check to opposing Trick Room.
• Calyrex-Ice - Glacial Lance now has 2 new Dragon-type Pokemon to snag OHKOs on, and Terastallization gives Calyrex a way to get rid of its awful typing or push Glacial Lance even further with Tera Ice. Like usual, it is heavily dependent on Trick Room, and also comes at the opportunity cost of not running the extremely busted Calyrex-Shadow.
• Chien-Pao primarily serves the purpose of powering up already great physical attackers, but it also serves as a soft check to many valuable Pokemon. Sucker Punch forces Calyrex to not click Astral Barrage or else Terastallize, Ice Spinner does heavy damage to the bike legendaries (although it shares the same 135 Speed stat with them), and Taunt prevents status moves, which tends to be more valuable than the comparably weak Sacred Sword.
• Groudon - Groudon's Precipice Blades continue to be solid offensively, hitting the majority of the tier for at least neutral damage. It suffers from competition with Koraidon, though, and although it does technically trade into Miraidon, I wouldn't call it a favorable trade. Still, an Electric immunity is valuable, and forcing Miraidon to take a -2 Sp. Atk drop can neuter it for allies to help.
• Indeedee-Female - Indeedee's traits give it plenty to consider over Amoonguss as a redirection role, with an important immunity to Astral Barrage and Psychic Surge, stopping Ekiller's main form of damage output (and sometimes both if it runs Shadow Claw), and neutering Miraidon. It can even use Trick Room now. Unlike Amoonguss's Spore, though, it has almost no offensive pressure whatsoever. You wall Arceus, sure, but you better have a good way of actually knocking it out, or else it'll just set up a free Swords Dance and switch in its ally Miraidon whenever it's ready to attack.
• Rayquaza - Rayquaza offers a number of attributes that other Pokemon lack - it can immediately turn off both sun and rain, including Protosynthesis boosts, and offers a Ground resist in a format desperate for one. Still, it has significant hurdles - it no longer has access to V-create, it doesn't like the bike legendaries' ability to outspeed and OHKO it, and Flying STAB is not as spammable as in previous generations. It does have access to Stealth Rock and U-turn in this generation, but it faces pretty severe competition as a physical attacker with Arceus.
• Ting-Lu - Ting-Lu works well as a hard stop to Calyrex-Shadow, taking almost nothing from Astral Barrage and laughing at Tera Blast. It also serves as an soft check to Miraidon, being one of the Ground-types actually able to tank 2 Draco Meteors from Life Orb Miraidon, though it doesn't threaten a KO in return with Stomping Tantrum. It's going to typically be used to set hazards, halve Pokemon's HP with Ruination, and check special attackers the best it can otherwise.
• Zamazenta-Crowned - Zamazenta importantly lost Coaching between generations, though it did gain a much more reliable STAB in Body Press. Zamazenta still has excellent utility with Wide Guard and Snarl to slow down special attackers, and its passiveness last generation is somewhat mitigated by Body Press's more immediate damage. Last options include Howl to copium about Coaching being gone, as well as Iron Defense to boost Body Press's damage.

>>Tier 4<<

• Arceus-Dark - checks Calyrex-Shadow immediately. Going to be used more as a support role with possibly Trick Room or Will-o-Wisp. Struggles with offensive pressure on the board.
• Arceus-Ghost - Ekiller that starts off as default Ghost. Pretty mid if you ask me.
• Arceus-Water - Another support Arceus for getting off important status conditions, with a solid starting Water-type, which only Miraidon really exploits. A Kyogre with Recover is not always easy to beat.
• Chi-Yu - Chi-Yu powers up the special attackers like Calyrex-Shadow or Miraidon even more. It struggles solo vs the much faster tier and with Kyogre, with Choice Scarf and Focus Sash both having their own problems.
• Cresselia - Difficult to KO without Calyrex-Shadow, and Lunar Blessing can keep sweepers healthy to prepare for a second Trick Room. Ally Switch buys sweepers occasional free turns.
• Dialga-Origin - Bulkier Dialga. A sort of midground between a Trick Room setter that's hard to quickly KO while also having solid damage output in TR.
• Dondozo + Tatsugiri - Although Dondozo despises Miraidon, +2 omniboost Unaware can still trade effectively with many powerful Pokemon; standard SD Ekiller, for example, does only 15% with Extreme Speed. Much harder to commit two slots to the combo since Tatsugiri is extremely useless in most matchups.
• Eternatus - Cosmic Power + Recover + Terastallizing out of the Dragon weakness can allow Eternatus to wall whole teams, with the right counterplay available to its faster checks. Very passive, but high reward if setup is possible.
• Flutter Mane - Protosynthesis gives Flutter Mane a free Choice Scarf in a tier with bike legendaries to Moonblast and a natural immunity to Extreme Speed. Struggles to keep up with the power level.
• Grimmsnarl - Screens are good. Prankster Parting Shot is good. It's pretty difficult to KO Grimmsnarl in a single blow with Zacian less ubiquitous.
• Iron Bundle - Free Quark Drive with Miraidon frees up Focus Sash, a requirement to tank the massive special attacks being thrown around. Fast Icy Wind serves as an alternate form of Speed control to Tailwind, and Freeze-Dry + Hydro Pump hits most of the tier for reasonable damage. Outspeeds a Kyogre in Tailwind if Quark Drive is active.
• Iron Hands - Best Fake Out Pokemon available for Trick Room, and gets a free 1.3x Attack boost if Miraidon was on the board. Bulk is not as impressive by DUbers standards, but can still get the job done.
• Kingambit -Threatens Calyrex-Shadow with Sucker Punch while being a sturdier switch-in than Urshifu or Chien-Pao.
• Palkia - Kyogre resist that isn't committed to a particular item. Works better in Trick Room.
• Palkia-Origin - Kyogre resist that works better out of Trick Room. Has a lot of competition with other, faster Dragons.
• Regieleki - Benefits from Miraidon's Electric Terrain and functions like a more offensive Iron Bundle.
• Urshifu-Single-Strike - More offensive than Kingambit, and has Close Combat to smack Arceus for more damage. Unblockable contact moves courtesy of Unseen Fist are never going to be bad.
• Ursaluna - Amoonguss-proof Trick Room sweeper. Takes advantage of Ground weaknesses, immune to Calyrex, but requires a lot of setup to be most effective in Trick Room.

Apologies for another reply, but I've decided I want a 5th tier, so I'm going to do it. Allow me to introduce to you:

>>Tier 5<<

• Thundurus - Tired of getting your butt kicked by tailwind? Well, I've got just the Pokemon for you. Not only can he Taunt a non-tera dark Tornadus, but he can just Thunder Wave the Kyogre or whichever dumb legendary is at his flying-type brother's side if you know it's tera dark. Also, Wildbolt Storm deals supereffective damage to both of them if his ally doesn't finish them off. Assuming Kyogre does in fact die, then Tornadus can be swept away by Volt Switch.
• Gastrodon - By golly, this Pokemon is freaking annoying. Not only can it tank a Collision Course, but Storm Drain makes it every Kyogre's nightmare. It can reliably use Yawn to shut down Pokemon that are using set-up moves. It can also be used to force a switch, which can work out quite well.
• Landorus-T - Great for Earthquake and immune to Electro Drift.
• Coalossal - If you allow it to setup, which doesn't even require one turn, you are doomed if its moveset and tera type are good.
• - I already explained this one, but yes, it's getting a spot in this tier.
• Oranguru - Better than Cresselia. Immune to ghost. Better than Indeedee-F. Has Instruct. If you allow it the space to instruct, it's game over. Only dark can OHKO it and only Chi-Yu does that reliably.
• Armarouge - Definitely won't survive a whole match, but it's useful alongside Indeedee-F.
• Murkrow - WHAT DO YOU MEAN "MURKROW'S NOT VIABLE?!!"
• Regidrago - Works alongside Kyogre or Zamazenta. It can also function in Trick Room. Nobody will expect a tera steel except experienced VGC players. The only reason I was able to predict the tera steel the one singular time I played this matchup in DUbers was because I use a tera steel Regidrago myself in my VGC battles.
• Garganacl - The epitome of silliness. Salt cure creates not-so-medical miracles (even though it has "cure" in the name) in Trick Room and even with the lack thereof, it serves as a good Wide Guard puppet.
• Abomasnow - It's the pinnacle of VGC talk at the moment, and with an optimally vested Calyrex-Ice who has tera'd out of its horrible typing, you now have a crazy Pokemon fit for literally any encounter.
• Glimmora - Great hazard setter. Great alongside Hex. Nothing else to say.
• Rillaboom - Psychic Terrain? No, I don't think so.
• Zoroark-Hisui - You don't realize until it's completely disregarded your Astral Barrage and sent out an Icy Wind, leaving both your Pokemon pretty much useless next turn.

 

[Arcticblast]

jack_ I've elected not to issue an "official" warning, but in the future, double posting should only be done in threads with little activity, and only when it's been approved by moderation.

I think a lot of the Pokemon you've brought up are questionable at best and downright bad at worst, so I'll go through the ones I feel I can comment on. I didn't vote on the viability rankings, but I wouldn't have organized the vote in the first place if I didn't have some of my own experience to fall back on.

Tier 5 as a whole - For the voters' initial pass on viability rankings, we elected not to make a tier 5. Very few of the Pokemon in our initial pass would have been in tier 5 anyway, and an additional tier only served to complicate things and delay the timely posting of the VR.
Gastrodon - This beats Kyogre and sometimes Miraidon, and if you want it to beat anything else, you have to use Tera on a Gastrodon instead of a good Pokemon.
Coalossal - This Pokemon is downright terrible in Doubles OU. What makes it any better here, where the power level of the format is significantly higher? I guess it resists Extreme Speed, but that doesn't exactly make you good.
Brute Bonnet - Has some good matchups against Shadow Rider and Kyogre, but looks like complete dogshit against most other things. Surviving against some of the meta's big shots seems difficult. Amoonguss at least can take two hits with Regenerator.
Oranguru - Why yes, I would like my Trick Room setter to die to Extreme Killer! How'd you know? In all seriousness, this Pokemon is less bulky than Cresselia, doesn't bring Follow Me or a team-wide immunity to Extreme Speed like Indeedee-F, and in general just offers less team support (Instruct is bad and has always been bad)
Armarouge - I don't hate this one as much as the Pokemon you mentioned above, but why would I ever choose this over Shadow Rider? Astral Barrage probably does similar damage even in Psychic Terrain.
Murkrow - This one I really don't get. What redeeming features does this Pokemon have? Why would I ever pick this over Tornadus? Why would I ever pick this at all?? Maybe you should consider actually explaining what makes this Pokemon good instead of just saying "what do you mean it's not viable." That might help your case :)
Abomasnow - I don't know what you mean by "the pinnacle of VGC talk." I've been very fortunate to speak with a few players who will be playing at Worlds this year, and not a single one has mentioned Abomasnow since May. VGC also doesn't have Kyogre, or Calyrex, or Koraidon, or any of these other big idiots (and will never get Arceus or Magearna), and I don't think anything except Ice Rider actually wants snow. If I just wanted a Pokemon to compete with both rain and sun, I'd much rather use Tyranitar; while it loses to the weather setters, it has a very good matchup against Shadow Rider and can stomach hits from Miraidon.
Rillaboom - I don't disagree that it might be decent, but it was actually voted UR by the voters. If we were to make a tier 5, I imagine Rillaboom would end up here.
Zoroark-H - I did a lot of testing with Zoroark-H in pre-Home DOU, and unfortunately, I must inform you that good players don't lose to Zoroark. Natural immunity to both Extreme Speed and Astral Barrage is super cool, but the entire rest of the format beats you.
Annihilape - Annihilape was on the initial voting slate because it is banned from DOU, but it was voted UR. Final Gambit is kind of lousy in a format where a lot of stuff just has the HP to live Final Gambit anyway, and I don't think Rage Fist sets have the longevity to succeed in this format.
Iron Leaves - bro no
Lando-T, Thundurus, Enamorus-T, Regidrago, Iron Moth, Glimmora, Garganacl - I can see arguments for all of these, and I encourage you to make more thought-out VR noms for all of them. Bring some replays with you so we can see what they do! Personally, I don't really know if any of them have quite what it takes to actually hang out in this format.

I'm glad you're enjoying Doubles Ubers, but you've done a pretty poor job selling me on most of the Pokemon you mentioned.

 

[jack_]

jack_ I've elected not to issue an "official" warning, but in the future, double posting should only be done in threads with little activity, and only when it's been approved by moderation.

I think a lot of the Pokemon you've brought up are questionable at best and downright bad at worst, so I'll go through the ones I feel I can comment on. I didn't vote on the viability rankings, but I wouldn't have organized the vote in the first place if I didn't have some of my own experience to fall back on.

Tier 5 as a whole - For the voters' initial pass on viability rankings, we elected not to make a tier 5. Very few of the Pokemon in our initial pass would have been in tier 5 anyway, and an additional tier only served to complicate things and delay the timely posting of the VR.
Gastrodon - This beats Kyogre and sometimes Miraidon, and if you want it to beat anything else, you have to use Tera on a Gastrodon instead of a good Pokemon.
Coalossal - This Pokemon is downright terrible in Doubles OU. What makes it any better here, where the power level of the format is significantly higher? I guess it resists Extreme Speed, but that doesn't exactly make you good.
Brute Bonnet - Has some good matchups against Shadow Rider and Kyogre, but looks like complete dogshit against most other things. Surviving against some of the meta's big shots seems difficult. Amoonguss at least can take two hits with Regenerator.
Oranguru - Why yes, I would like my Trick Room setter to die to Extreme Killer! How'd you know? In all seriousness, this Pokemon is less bulky than Cresselia, doesn't bring Follow Me or a team-wide immunity to Extreme Speed like Indeedee-F, and in general just offers less team support (Instruct is bad and has always been bad)
Armarouge - I don't hate this one as much as the Pokemon you mentioned above, but why would I ever choose this over Shadow Rider? Astral Barrage probably does similar damage even in Psychic Terrain.
Murkrow - This one I really don't get. What redeeming features does this Pokemon have? Why would I ever pick this over Tornadus? Why would I ever pick this at all?? Maybe you should consider actually explaining what makes this Pokemon good instead of just saying "what do you mean it's not viable." That might help your case :)
Abomasnow - I don't know what you mean by "the pinnacle of VGC talk." I've been very fortunate to speak with a few players who will be playing at Worlds this year, and not a single one has mentioned Abomasnow since May. VGC also doesn't have Kyogre, or Calyrex, or Koraidon, or any of these other big idiots (and will never get Arceus or Magearna), and I don't think anything except Ice Rider actually wants snow. If I just wanted a Pokemon to compete with both rain and sun, I'd much rather use Tyranitar; while it loses to the weather setters, it has a very good matchup against Shadow Rider and can stomach hits from Miraidon.
Rillaboom - I don't disagree that it might be decent, but it was actually voted UR by the voters. If we were to make a tier 5, I imagine Rillaboom would end up here.
Zoroark-H - I did a lot of testing with Zoroark-H in pre-Home DOU, and unfortunately, I must inform you that good players don't lose to Zoroark. Natural immunity to both Extreme Speed and Astral Barrage is super cool, but the entire rest of the format beats you.
Annihilape - Annihilape was on the initial voting slate because it is banned from DOU, but it was voted UR. Final Gambit is kind of lousy in a format where a lot of stuff just has the HP to live Final Gambit anyway, and I don't think Rage Fist sets have the longevity to succeed in this format.
Iron Leaves - bro no
Lando-T, Thundurus, Enamorus-T, Regidrago, Iron Moth, Glimmora, Garganacl - I can see arguments for all of these, and I encourage you to make more thought-out VR noms for all of them. Bring some replays with you so we can see what they do! Personally, I don't really know if any of them have quite what it takes to actually hang out in this format.

I'm glad you're enjoying Doubles Ubers, but you've done a pretty poor job selling me on most of the Pokemon you mentioned.

I have one singular word about Murkrow: Haze. That's the only good thing about Murkrow.

 

[Dr Hemington]

Hey - Dr Hemington here.

I recently made a breakaway on the DUbers ladder and thought I’d write a team report on it.

:

I come from a VGC background and I would say that it’s allowed me to look at the format from a different lens and identify what I believe is the dominant team archetype at the moment.


Firstly, I knew that Grimmsnarl was the strongest Pokémon in the format almost immediately. Grimmsnarl’s a viable choice in VGC, a 4v4 format, and in 6v6, Light Clay-boosted screens simply pay too many dividends over the course of a game. Additionally screens allow you to be less serious about speed control, which is invaluable in DUbers because most forms of advantageous speed control require the use of underpowered support Pokemon like Indeedee or Tornadus. Hard-Trick Room usually requires underpowered Pokémon like Ursaluna or Torkoal. Most restricted legendary Pokémon are inflexible stat-balls in middling speed tiers and they’re best utilised just absorbing damage and dishing out way more. Grimmsnarl’s underpowered too, but only when it’s not setting screens. A big advantage of Grimmsnarl is that once it’s done its job, it gets priority parting shot which allows it to safely rotate out to an ally and reset screens towards the end of the game.

-

I used to pilot a different team alongside Grimmsnarl but with the same sort of principle of just absorbing and redistributing damage. One of my biggest problems was Kyogre - particularly Kyogre teams that committed to the rain dynamic with Pokémon like Urshifu-single-strike, and I learned 2 things.

1, I needed to use Grimmsnarl on a team with more offensive cohesion and 2, I needed to improve my Kyogre matchup. Immediately I came to the realisation that Groudon and Koraidon both set the sun and that they could together lockout Kyogre (Kyogre needs Pelipper to mirror it). Even though I think they’re both pretty average Pokémon, together they work excellently. The fact that neither of them are Fire types is actually a blessing, because the unique typing of Groudon, Koraidon and Arceus-Fire keeps the core defensively robust. Because of Arceus’ ridiculous defenses, being able to double the damage from its fire-type attacks with the sun makes it incredibly good at trading damage. I gave Groudon a choice scarf because it’s very stat efficient; Groudon switches from being outsped by everything to outspeeding Calyrex-Shadow. This is better for trading than bulk. Koraidon was always a bit awkward to use until I stopped assuming that it had to be max speed and invested more in defenses. Miraidon and Koraidon have very considerable defenses despite their glass-cannon play style. Behind screens this is exacerbated. Koraidon has a higher Defense stat than Special-Defense and so it’s a prime candidate for Assault Vest.



Most teams run a Calyrex and in this particular team composition it made more sense to use Ice-Rider. The philosophy of the team is trading damage behind screens ‘despite’ speed control and Shadow Rider doesn’t fit that mould. Calyrex-Ice Rider has monstrous combat stats, and the best offensive-typing of any restricted legendary, greatly threatening Miraidon, Koraidon, Groudon, Rayquaza, Arceus, Tornadus, Murkrow; the list goes on. Calyrex also anchors the team against soft trick-room, and behind screens outperforms other Calyrex Ice-Rider and prevents the others getting rolled by opposing Chilling Neigh buffs.



Finally there’s Miraidon. One of the things I like about DUbers is that the smaller pool of good Pokémon means that your right answer; the role you need fulfilling, is easier to figure out. Miraidon isn’t the perfect ally on this team and it definitely tips the ice-type vulnerability too far, but it’s really too powerful to sub out. The main reason is because of Hadron Drive, which helps to make Amoonguss worthless and which provides some protection against terrain-boosted expanding force. As tempting as it is to switch to Zamazenta, it’d be too much of a loss. Similar to how Koraidon’s Defense-weighting makes it a good candidate for Assault Vest, Miraidon’s Special-Defense weighting makes it a good candidate for Electric Seed. Its unique typing allows it to line up alongside Grimmsnarl and safely outtrade teams that are imbalanced against it.

I think that in a mature meta game Kyogre will decline in popularity, Brick Break / other screen breakers will become more popular and perhaps RayOgre will become more standard.

Anyway, thank you for reading this. I hope to see you on the ladder :)

- Dr Hemington

 

[jack_]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1914935559

What on earth was that Lando doing

 

[Arcticblast]

Before I get to my VR noms, I have a few observations about the format from my perspective. I don't expect everyone to agree on them, but these are what colors my views below:
- This format is not a high damage format. Almost every Pokemon has high offenses, sure, but these Pokemon also have crazy defensive capabilities. Everything does like 40% with neutral hits.
- There are two major speed breakpoints that Pokemon want to hit: base 120 and base 135. This roughly translates to Arceus and the bikes. If you're not beating one of these, including benchmarks with speed control, you're either max speed for the tie or you're uninvested, and that's about it.
- Every team should have an Arceus.

EDIT: These mostly reflect what we've seen of the Derby meta so far and my own experiences playing in said meta. I haven't laddered as much as I'd like (I got on another Zelda kick, sue me), so some things might not quite line up with ladder or a potential individual tour later down the line, but things should be close enough.

Rises:
--> 1
This Pokemon is genuinely incredible. Orichalum Pulse and the unique nature of Collision Course provide some of the highest damage output in the format, and Tera Fire serves double duty in flipping major weaknesses and boosting Flare Blitz to fuck you levels of damage. The Assault Vest set is incredibly reliable, both dealing high damage and providing utility with Snarl should it choose to do so. While we haven't really seen much else in Derby so far, I can't imagine Choice Band or Scarf to be any less successful.
--> 1
Miraidon is pretty similar to Koraidon in that it has some of the highest damage output in the format, and it can effectively run both aggressive sets and bulky Assault Vest sets. The typing is a little bit worse overall, but terrain boosted Electro Drift is basically a Draco Meteor every turn, and Volt Switch hurts way more than Koraidon's U-turn.

--> 2
This Pokemon walls half the format, only really loses to Miraidon and Eternatus, and can either fill a support role with an Arceus movepool or set up with Calm Mind and end games. Suffers from the whole format being prepared for Kyogre, but you have more tricks up your sleeve.
--> 2
Body Press was a mistake, and Zama-C is living proof. Iron Defense / Body Press / Snarl / Wide Guard is a very potent set that mangles Ekiller and both Calyrex formes, puts pressure on Miraidon, and ends games in a hurry if it can't get answered fast enough.
--> 3
This thing is a slow and agonizing game ender, and it does a really good job at it. A lot of the strongest moves in the format only have 8 PP, such as Miraidon's Draco Meteor, Caly-Ice's Glacial Lance, Arceus's Extreme Speed, and Kyogre's Water Spout, and Eternatus does a good job draining them with Pressure. Toxic + Cosmic Power + Recover results in an unkillable Eterntatus that sits there healing while you throw 12% damage at it a turn until you run out of PP. I could honestly see Eternatus moving to tier 2, but I don't really feel comfortable making that leap right now.

--> 4
I don't really have a proper read on Arceus-Fire yet, but on paper it pairs well with the format's two Sun setters, and has decent matchups into Zacian, Calyrex-Ice, and Magearna. It does Arceus things.

Drops:
--> 2
Shadow Rider is one of the Pokemon we assumed would be a format boogeyman, but I think it's proven that it really isn't all that. While it has frankly insane offensive presence, it doesn't trade very well into most of the format because of its comparatively low bulk. Here's an example: my Calyrex takes 67 from Scarf Electro Drift and only deals 65 back with Psychic in Psychic Terrain on turn 1.
--> 3
Every single team is prepared for Kyogre. Kyogre itself is a pretty one dimensional Pokemon. This thing is really bad. I would drop it lower but ladder can kind of just lose to it sometimes.

To be thorough, here's a list of stuff I think could move based on vibes, but don't really have a good enough read on (or argument for):
Up:
Down:
There are more Arceus formes too, but there's too many to go through. I kind of hope we don't end up in a world where we've ranked every Arceus, but at the same time, I think we will end up ranking most Arceus eventually. It's Arceus.

 

[Schister]

Heya! I very recently started playing the tier (less than 2 days ago) but after going through some resources, watching games in Derby, and grabbing a team off of charmdi (Hopeless on discord) , with some minor tweaks by myself; I managed to push my account into the top 20 slots on ladder using a Skeledirge team.

- - - - -


A previous post in the thread noted how powerful Screens are in the format, and I'm inclined to agree. Grimmsnarl's screens can buy invaluable time for setup demons like Magearna, Ekiller Arceus, and in this case Skeledirge to muscle through many of the pokemon in the tier or offer critical defensive utility against some of the largest threats. Skeledirge is optimizedto abuse screens, ignoring potential counterplay from setup mons that would otherwise break past the defenses, crippling most of the common breakers in the tier Such as Zacian, Ice Rider, Koraidon and Groudon with Will-o-wisp, and recovering chip taken with ease. Skeledirge's typing is a blessing into most of the Dubers metagame, a blessing that has granted it a top tier rating in singles Ubers with its natural advantages over most of the Physical attackers in gen 9. Will-o-wisp further crippling them, and with few Fires around in Dubers at the moment, Dirge wisp can be very hard to stop from getting some level of marginal value, either crippling a physical threat or offering helpful chip damage against special attackers in a tier where healing and status control are much harder to come by than in lower tiers where Skeledirge's utility can be blocked/stalled a bit easier. Although it may appear that Skeledirge is weak to special attackers, it can manage quite well screens up and the ability to Tera water into Kyogre and Calyrex shadow. It completely walls Magearna sets lacking stored power both before and after tera thanks to Unaware and the other members of the team can cover any remnant weaknesses.


While Skeledirge has a great matchup spread into the ubers metagame, it's not invincible. Scarfed miraidon makes for an exceptional partner that can deal with problems that the main defensive core of this team might otherwise struggle with, such as opposing Miraidon, Kyogre, and the occasional Dark shifu. It's a solid threat here that really binds the team with its ability to threaten opposing problem mons and notably makes for a good lead pick with its ability to pivot in a defensive option.


Arceus Water serves to threaten any opposing Fire teras or occasional mons such as Chi yu and Groudon while compressing speed control options that provide essential mons such as Miraidon and Magearna space to work with into opposing speed control. Having both moves on the same set can really throw off opponents and lead to some funny replays. The Leftovers is a viable option to provide some sustainability on this set but arceus typically will last several turns with screens even without recovery and greatly appreciates the water boosting power of the Splash Plate into Groudon and making use of it to overclock its damage output into Kyogre teams, seeing as this team lacks its own weather control option.


This little demon thrives under screens, oftentimes surviving entire games off nothing more than leftovers, subtect, and being able to obliterate everything in sight. It's Eved to hit 406 speed under Tailwind from Arceus, beating the ever present 135 speed tier mons while still being able to exploit trick room if it's up into many teams. Magearna benefitting from its own teammates dropping is a boon with Grimmsnarl, who may find itself nothing more than death fodder after a round of screens or two if it can't find a spirit break target, giving a safe switch to a mont hat can further enable it. (usually to water Arceus or Skeledirge)


It's Calyrex, perfectly competent in and out of screens, and ready to clean up mons left chipped by the rest of the team at a moment's notice while being somewhat difficult to KO behind screens, sash for insurance against opposing shadow riders.


This team has an incredibly matchup into Ice rider, Zacian and Ekiller Arceus, with Skeledirge and Magearna being able to work in tandem to wall the them very effectively and prevent progress. This team has some issues dealing with Amoongus, with no immediate way to dispatch of it, and if the meta shifts to carry more coverage for fires and steels, the main screens abusing core would potentially struggle. Skeledirge is also slightly reliant on tera but it was quite common I found myself using tera on other pokemon.


Some Misc Replays from a few styles of ladder teams:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940184850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940211266
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940226468-m4f4qdc9kgc3br6005x1ydx22ihep22pw


TL;DR:
Skeledirge is a valuable pokemon into a large portion of the dubers metagame thanks to its typing and ability allowing it to be an effective tank and threat given the right support, just as it is in singles.

 

[Arcticblast]

I went 5-1 in Derby and had a lot of fun with this format! Have a team dump!

Week 1 vs entrocefalo (W)

Calyrex-Shadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Astral Barrage
- Psychic
- Tera Blast

Indeedee-F @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Heal Pulse
- Dazzling Gleam
- Follow Me

Chi-Yu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Psychic

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 184 HP / 116 Atk / 72 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Collision Course
- Flare Blitz
- Snarl
- U-turn

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Behemoth Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Psychic Fangs


Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 88 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
- Recover

At the beginning of the tournament, I knew I wanted to play DUbers but I didn't really know what to bring, so I played late and took a hard look at the four teams brought before my game. All four were Grimmsnarl comps leveraging the bikes and the dogs, so that's what I set out to beat. Tera Fire Calyrex-Shadow could Tera against the dogs and just hit big against other stuff. Indeedee-F kept the Ekiller matchup under control and helped against Miraidon. Chi-Yu served as a Shadow Rider damage amp. From there, the rest was goodstuff - Koraidon took hits and kept bad mon Kyogre at bay, Arceus served as a bulky pivot and backup win condition (which it accomplished well), and Zacian threatened Caly-Ice and bikes. I called the Grimmsnarl correctly, and Psychic Fangs Zacian got to be really cool. Meanwhile, Indeedee was juuuuuust bulky enough to give Arceus a head start and take over the game.

Week 2 vs zee (W)

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Lunar Blessing
- Ally Switch
- Trick Room

Calyrex-Ice @ Clear Amulet
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Glacial Lance
- Stomping Tantrum
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Eternatus @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 104 SpD / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Cosmic Power
- Recover

Miraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Snarl

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Behemoth Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Play Rough

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Icy Wind
- Recover
- Taunt

I decided to keep up the "beat up on Grimmsnarl comps" mindset going into week 2, but instead of raw damage, I opted to try to stall out screens with Eternatus. Cresselia gave the team some extra longevity into the Zamazentas and AV Koraidons of the world, SD Caly-Ice was meant as a strong win condition under Trick Room, Arceus-Water this time served as a pure support Pokemon, and the rest was more goodstuff as always. I wanted Miraidon to make sure Eternatus couldn't be Spored, and Zacian beats up bikes. I think I played this game pretty poorly, with multiple Trick Rooms that didn't need to happen, but I got a good matchup and got bailed by zee being distracted by Worlds (which is completely justified). In the time since I've found that Eternatus is still quite good, but not quite as infallible as I thought.

Week 3 vs spellcaster (W) & Week 4 vs DaWoblefet (L)

Groudon @ Soft Sand
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 240 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Tailwind
- Recover

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 184 HP / 116 Atk / 72 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Collision Course
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Parting Shot

Miraidon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Drift
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Snarl
- Iron Defense
- Wide Guard

I talked with Lord Death Man about this team a lot and I took inspiration from Dr Hemington on this lineup, and I think this is the coolest team I built all season. SD Groudon, Arceus-Fire, and Koraidon together make a really strong Sun core, and Specs Miraidon does completely unfair damage. I chose to become part of the Grimmsnarl problem this week rather than try to beat it again, and Zamazenta rounded out the six as a good Calyrex check. I think the team shone a lot week 3, where Groudon got in some serious damage and Miraidon picked up the pieces. I was getting my ass beat in test games before my week 4 game though, and was really unsure of what to bring, so I optimized a couple Tera types, gave Grimmsnarl Foul Play, and loaded it into Wob. This didn't work out, but I think that was more of a play issue than a team issue. I got owned! It happens.

Week 5 vs Feyy (W)

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 108 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flash Cannon

Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Drum Beating
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 204 SpD / 40 Spe
Brave Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Brick Break
- Overheat
- Stomping Tantrum

Miraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Electro Drift
- Overheat
- Volt Switch

Calyrex-Ice @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Protect
- Glacial Lance
- Stomping Tantrum
- Trick Room

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 240 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Foul Play
- Tailwind
- Recover

I had been thinking about Magearna all season - surely this Pokemon couldn't be bad, but how could I make it work? I had also been thinking a lot about how much I wished all of my teams had Fake Out. I finally decided to combine these two thoughts into Rillaboom and Substitute Magearna. I sat on a half-built team with AV Koraidon and support Waterceus in the next two slots for a few days. Eventually I had the idea to swap Koraidon to Groudon and add some generic good Pokemon at the end in Scarf Miraidon and Calyrex-Ice, and then I rounded out the sets and played a pretty clean game. The EVs on Groudon and Magearna put them both at 203 Speed, which is enough to outrun the bikes in Tailwind. Unfortunately I didn't get to play Yuichi (work is hell sometimes), and my understanding is Yuichi would have brought a different team that probably had a better matchup. That said, shoutout to charmdi for building Feyy's team; it was super cool!

Semifinals vs Enzonana (technically a W)

Arceus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Protect

Miraidon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Behemoth Blade
- Play Rough
- Sacred Sword

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 240 HP / 248 Def / 16 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Fake Out
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Brick Break
- Overheat
- Stomping Tantrum

Calyrex-Ice @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Protect
- Glacial Lance
- Stomping Tantrum
- Trick Room

I realized before playoffs week that I hadn't brought a single Ekiller, and decided it was time to change that. The team is pretty standard, so I'll take this moment to give a shoutout to Assault Vest Groudon. That guy is so unbelievably tanky, and strong matchups into Zacian and Miraidon is very much appreciated. I didn't actually get to use the Ekiller this week because of how the game played out. Winning via timeout is pretty lame, but it makes the record look nice all the same! (One day I will get rematches with both Yuichi and Enzo and our battles will be legendary.)

All in all I think this format is super fun. It's a little top heavy, but that's expected from an Ubers format, and the giant box legends are always fun to slam into each other. I'd like to give a quick shoutout to zee and Yellow Paint for testing with me on and off during the season, and a group shoutout to the rest of the Jockeys for a great season.

KYOGRE SUCKS STOP USING IT

 

[Yuichi]

went 5-1 in derbs

teamdump time

Week 1 VS Spellcaster[W]

Click me!

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Iron Defense

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 160 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Collision Course
- Dragon Claw
- Wild Charge
- U-turn

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Calyrex-Shadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Imprison
- Trick Room
- Protect

Miraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Metal Sound

Grimmsnarl @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Parting Shot

This was built in within like 5 mins after i saw everyone was jumping onto the screens train during week 1. If you cant beat them, join them. Going in, I had 0 expectations for the match and just wanted to bring something solid. Trick scarf grimm was something i changed last minute since the value trick scarf provided helped tremendously with the TR mu in case Caly-S was not enough. Metal Sound Miraidon sounded funny in the builder esp with scarf and Caly-S but honestly probably ass in practice.

Week 2 VS Entrocefalo[L]

Click me!

Iron Valiant @ Focus Sash
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Feint
- Wide Guard
- Encore

Miraidon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Overheat

Koraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Collision Course
- Flare Blitz
- Breaking Swipe
- U-turn

Calyrex-Ice @ Assault Vest
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Stomping Tantrum
- Seed Bomb
- Pollen Puff

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Wide Guard
- Snarl
- Iron Defense

Chi-Yu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Overheat
- Snarl
- Dark Pulse

Initially I was looking around in the builder for an alternative speed control option and i chanced across Iron Valiant, which seemed solid initially with tons of very valuable support options, as well as pretty decent stabs that go super well into the bikes. AV Chi-yu helped to round up the Calyrex matchups, which felt kinda iffy with my own Caly-Ice and double bikes. Chi-yu also felt like it had great potential as a Zamazenta check with Tera Ghost. And while this team didnt win the week, I feel like the potential is still there and I really wanted to do something with Valiant, so I kept the 6 for the following week.

Week 3 VS Dawoblefet[W]



Essentially the exact same team from the week before as I felt the Entrocefalo game didnt do Valiant justice. Dawoblefet paid full respect to Valiant's kit, which made it way more threatening on the field than the previous week. Valiant provided immense value throughout the midgame and helped apply a ton of offensive pressure, which eventually secured the win against the VGC dictator.

Week 4 VS Charlotte[W]

Click me!

Tornadus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bleakwind Storm
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Leer

Miraidon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Dazzling Gleam

Arceus @ Life Orb
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Atk / 4 Def / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch

Calyrex-Ice @ Weakness Policy
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Close Combat
- Trick Room
- Protect

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Crunch
- Wide Guard
- Iron Defense

Coming into this week I also didnt really know what to expect, but i knew that i really wanted to build something around Groudon after i realised that this tier had essentially 0 ground resists. AV groudon is super bulky and hits very hard with double ground stabs, with Tera ground increasing its power to absurd levels. Fast Caly-Ice was something that i have used very often since the early days of VGC2021, and was also something that i felt would be super good right now against the other semiroom teams. Knowing that your Caly-Ice can and will outspeed them outside of Trick Room while still being able to hit decent speeds under Tailwind. I did contemplate going Jolly just so that I can catch up with the bikes, but ended up keeping adamant since the power loss from going Jolly is in fact quite significant and i can always just click trick room instead. Tornadus easily filled in the last slot as a partner for Groudon to EQ safely beside, while providing speed control and Taunt for other shenanigans. Leer Torn also further amps the team's power level for either Caly Ice or Groudon to do insane spread damage.

Week 5 VS Arcticblast

I was stuck at work lmao

Week 7 VS Dawoblefet[W]

Click me!

Arceus @ Life Orb
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Calyrex-Shadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Encore
- Disable
- Protect

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Collision Course
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break
- Flame Charge

Miraidon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Drift
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor
- Dazzling Gleam

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Crunch
- Wide Guard
- Iron Defense

Grimmsnarl @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 208 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Parting Shot
- Fake Tears
- Scary Face

A rematch with the demon of Dubers. Decided to take some inspiration from ladder and run a bit of a more offensive Grimmsnarl set with fake out and ebutton to help with positioning. Specs Miraidon has been something I have been preaching about since forever and it is absolutely absurd under the right scenario, allowing you to delete less bulky mons with a single Volt Switch and adjust your board positioning. Flame Charge Koraidon was also something that i stole from ladder. It allows Koraidon to deal decent enough chip while gaining the speed advantage to position itself better against a potential switch into Zacian or Caly-S. Encore Disable Caly-S was something that i adopted from the man himself during our previous SS Dubers match and proved to be a vital piece in helping secure the victory, crippling mono attack FairyCeus. Overall a very solid team and a very good early game until it came down to a Caly-S speedtie, which caused Dawoblefet to lose the battle.


Week 8 VS Enzonana[W]



I felt that this team still had a bit of life left in it as i didnt quite reveal the Grimmsnarl set from the previous set. It is also fundamentally still pretty solid and i enjoyed playing with bikes + Zama + Caly a lot. At preview, its easy to see that el nana had a hard Zama CT, bringing both Arceus Fire and Groudon while i had a grand total of 2 fire resists and 0 real Groudon switches. Early game was a total mess but allowing Caly-S live for 5 more turns than it should've proved to be a fatal mistake from nana's side. It seemed like Caly-S would be 6-0ing at some point but some absurdly wild rolls on Miraidon changed that. However broken Arceus still managed to clean up everything after, securing a win in the final week for the Kingdras




Noms:

-> Tier 1
This thing has like literally 0 opp cost u just slap it onto a team and u can expect it to be consistent and do work every single game. Nuff said

-> Tier 1
Literally a fucking railgun. Specs allowing you to delete something every time this thing comes onto the field might actually be stupid

-> Tier 1
Not quite as consistent as Miraidon, but still hits absurdly hard when needed too. Tier 2 is honestly fine too but this mon is very good

-> Tier 2
In a format with 0 ground resists and Kyogre doesn't exist no more, whats stopping this oversized lizard?

-> Tier 2
Super versatile and can offer a ton of value from screens to fake out to parting shot to sucker punch and even speed control. What cant this thing do?

-> Tier 3
Provides good value as a fire and a Caly switchin, but otherwise needs a bit of team support. Does good damage though

-> Tier 3
Immense support potential, and every game you play against it you're left guessing its support kit. Needing E terrain kinda holds it back but nonetheless a very solid support option

-> Tier 3
Magearna has lost most of its value in a format where almost everyone knows what it does. Requires way too much effort for way too little returns but can absolutely go bonkers under the right setup

-> Tier 3
Kyogre usage falling off a cliff hurts this a lot, but being able to pair with Groudon is a plus i guess.....?

-> Tier 4
This stupid whale is useless as hell stop using it

-> Tier 4
This mon isnt nearly as good as it was in previous gens thanks to the existence of Miraidon. At least indeedee offers terrain control...



Bonus:

Don't dead open inside

 

[KyleCole]

https://pokepast.es/15b551a51d42a0cb
I managed to peak with these guys as well. Compared to my DUU run, I had a bit of a learning curve to get over playing this tier. I fell into the trap of thinking Choice Specs Kyogre/Tornadus/Caly-Shadow-Rider was good because it shot me up to 1450 or so very quickly, then I hit a wall. When Arctic posted his teams, I switched to Groudon and started winning more, then I used Miraidon and stopped losing. He is right, Kyogre is actually not very good at all.
There's not too much to say about the team that isn't obvious from just opening the paste. You'll generally lead Miraidon + Grimm to set screens and volt switch into your gameplan. Sometimes you can just lead one of the Trick Room setters and clean with the faster pokemon in the endgame. Palkia and slower Zacian are probably the only cool choices here. Palkia is just a very reliable TR setter with the notable quality of not being weak to Ground, and Zacian will always live 2 Timid Caly-Shadow Astral Barrage's. EDIT: I forgot to mention Misty Terrain on Grimm, that's pretty much entirely for Darkrai sleep strats (they generally have a good plan for Miraidon), but I have actually clicked this to lessen dragon hits onto Palkia.

Quick meta thoughts: Kyogre is like tier 4 at best and Arceus is good but not quite tier 1 imo. Miraidon is easy tier 1 and I think the best mon in the tier. I guess you could argue Koraidon is tier 1 but I don't quite think so...Magearna I think is also not very good. I think Palkia should rise and that its speed tier and ability to hold an item make it distinctly better than Palkia-Origin. I also think Iron Hands feels good enough to rise. Ogerpon-Hearthflame is at least tier 3. It has a good enough speed tier and somehow fits on a team with 2 other really really good sun setters without unviably stacking weaknesses and it DELETES. Follow me is also fine if u want to sneak that on to the moveset. I guess I would also say Zacian is tier 1. It doesn't feel as insane as Miraidon but I don't think I'd ever drop it.

I really enjoyed learning and playing this tier. If you are half decent at doubles but want to try something that feels different, play Dubers. I thought that I might not like it because everything is morbillion BST, but contrary to popular sentiment, broken really does check broken. The dynamics of choosing what to trade and when are very fun. I think a limited number of viable pieces to choose between (but not really that limited) means that small decisions you make, like making Caly-Ice level 99 or Modest vs. Timid Scarf Miraidon, make a big difference.

proof

Some the better replays, a couple of these guys are in the top 10 atm (or near it)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1947051981-4cnli0k3c71auhlygy5ho4i4zvgbbuopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1947516610-y8xpm5gazkgv7pfdigcq3ir2i0lxud0pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1957332275-g54lylhsz9sl5fz8jc93nqd16hk30qspw

 

[DaWoblefet]

My performance in Doubles Derby was much more average, a modest 3-3. I second quite a few opinions already posted in terms of nominations:

Kyogre: Tier 1 -> Tier 4
This is a massive drop, but I think Kyogre was overestimated significantly based on ladder usage and past generations. Kyogre struggles with both bike legendaries being extremely good, meaning there are extremely common Water resists present unlike previous generations, including 1 that halves its damage output and 1 that OHKOs it without a defensive Terastallization. If anything, I would think of Kyogre in the opposite way - it has a more niche role in being able to turn off Koraidon's attack boost. I don't think it could ever be unranked, but it is not very good.

Koraidon: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Huge stats + lack of high powerful level Fairy-types leaves Koraidon always doing something useful. It functions effectively with both a Choice Scarf and Assault Vest, serving as an excellent check to many of the other top threats in the tier. I do think it sort of wants more than 4 moves a lot (Collision Course / Flare Blitz feel mandatory, and picking between two of U-turn, Flame Charge, Dragon Claw, and Breaking Swipe isn't obvious for all teams), but it has too many positive traits to not be a tier 1 Pokemon.

Magearna: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Magearna forces you to think differently about how to play the game; not respecting Soul-Heart is a great way to let it get carried away with Speed control. However, until it gets boosts going, it is extremely weak offensively. Assault Vest Miraidon isn't anywhere close to being 3HKOed by Gleam, and a 4 HP Miraidon won't fall to a +1 Gleam either. It's powerful with a bunch of dedicated support and a great wincon vs people who don't think positionally very well, but struggles with the myriad of options available to damage it heavily.

Miraidon: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
This is an easy tier 1. Miraidon does so many good things. It can viably use Assault Vest, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and Life Orb, hits stupidly hard, and is not by any means frail. It makes using Amoonguss much harder, provides immediate counterplay vs Psychic Terrain when using Ekiller, and has momentum with Volt Switch. There's little reason not to use Miraidon on a team.

Calyrex-Ice Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Calyrex-Ice matches up very well into the bikes, threatening an OHKO on them with Glacial Lance, and the bike legendaries often lack Protect. Without Incineroar around, it's not uncommon to be clicking Glacial Lance at +0 into teams, forcing telegraphed switches into limited counters. It also has the ability to Terastallize out of its horrid type weaknesses to get Trick Room up if needed, taking better advantage of its excellent bulk.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4
A worse Ekiller in most ways. Removing Koraidon's Attack boost is cool, but it outspeeds and still threatens heavy damage with Dragon Claw. It's a fine Pokemon, but requires teams so specific that few are likely to appreciate it.

Tier 3 -> UR
I haven't seen this thing do much of value. Rocks + Spikes are not super critical with how fast DUbers can be, and although it matches up well on paper into both Miraidon and Calyrex-Shadow, it doesn't return enough damage to keep up the pace in a doubles context.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Zamazenta has a lot of inherently good value with Body Press + Wide Guard. I don't really see Zamazenta as outright winning games, since it never really OHKOs anything at +3 Def, but it works excellently as a supplemental win condition. I don't ever see it being Tier 1 with how easy it is to slot Tera Ghost on Pokemon that already want to block Extreme Speed; Crunch is a good adaptation, but leaves Zamazenta without Protect or forced into Body Press / Wide Guard / Crunch / Iron Defense. It struggles with competition with Koraidon, especially AV Koraidon, since they sort of do similar things, but it's still a very good Pokemon.

Arceus-Dark: Tier 4 -> UR would never use this
Arceus-Water Tier 4 -> UR
This requires a bit more justification, but I don't see Arceus-Water as valuable for the same reasons the bike legends aren't, but with the problematics exacerbated. Arceus-Water does almost no damage in sun, and gets nuked by Miraidon even with several Calm Minds. But if you don't run Calm Mind, it's never ever going to deal damage to anything at all.

Arceus-Fairy: UR -> Tier 4
Arceus-Fairy does everything Arceus-Water does better as a Calm Mind Arceus. Its offensive typing is better into more of the metagame, only being weak into Zacian-Crowned. Both Iron Defense and Will-o-Wisp can shore up its exposed Defense stat, depending on whether or not you care about Arceus-Fairy itself (preparing a Defense boost for later physical attackers) or burning key Pokemon for allies.

Arceus-Fire: UR -> Tier 3
Unlike its Judgment Arceus friends, Arceus-Fire spams Heat Wave in the sun, slightly more useful as a spread move. Otherwise, Arceus-Fire does all the usual CM Arceus things.

Dialga-Origin: Tier 4 -> UR would never use this
Flutter Mane: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Flutter Mane is a bit in over its head sometimes with the relative power level of the format, but Protosynthesis being easily accessible means it has the ability to threaten big damage on both bikes and Calyrex-Shadow, getting the jump on them with the Speed boost, as well as being an ExtremeSpeed / Body Press immunity. I'd like to see more experimentation with Icy Wind for boards where it's not threatening a big KO.

Grimmsnarl: Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Prankster Screens are the only real damage mitigation in the tier, since there are no viable Intimidate users. Beyond screens, it has a number of useful support moves, including but not limited to Fake Out, Thunder Wave, and Parting Shot, all of which provide value. Screens balance teams are still doing well in DUbers, and I don't think they're going anywhere.

Palkia: Tier 4 -> UR would never use this
Palkia-Origin: Tier 4 -> UR would never use this
Regieleki: Tier 4 -> UR worse Iron Bundle until it gets Rising Voltage again

Armarouge UR -> Tier 4
Armarouge + Calyrex-Ice can form a deadly offensive combo in Trick Room, where Armor Cannon hits the Steel-types Calyrex-Ice wants to avoid, and Expanding Force + Glacial Lance hits everything else. A popular ladder team combines Weakness Policy Armarouge with Mud Shot Calyrex-Ice to further the damage potential, and Armarouge also gets Wide Guard as a means of supporting a second Trick Room by blocking key spread moves like Calyrex-Shadow's Astral Barrage. It's very much hard Trick Room, and requires Indeedee alongside it, but uninterrupted combination attacks from Calyrex-Ice and Armarouge can easily sweep through teams.

Rillaboom UR -> Tier 4
Without its favorite Pokemon to check, Kyogre, being around, Rillaboom is mostly relegated to Fake Out and U-turn duty, a role similarly accomplished by Iron Hands, but without the Grassy Terrain Rillaboom brings as a way to slow down Miraidon. Although Miraidon can absolutely cook Rillaboom with Overheat, there's a lot of value in weakening its Electric-type attacks by ~1.7x on switchin, and the tier lacks great Fake Out users. It can end up in boards where it does absolutely nothing fast though, so it has to spend its time on the field wisely.

 

[zee]

UR -> Tier 3

The mon's been used to claim a few wins in derby and dubers throwdown, mostly due to how impactful will-o-wisp is in the tier. This is a metagame with so many physical attackers and if nothing else you're forcing a tera fire that the opponent likely would prefer not to waste to block a status move. Quash is another great option to serve as speed control to help control tailwind, trick room, or choice scarf bikes. I've been using Taunt and Shadow Sneak in my filler slots but between Encore, Disable, Screens, Foul Play, Fake Out, and Helping Hand, it honestly has a ton of options. Immunity to other Prankster Taunt and Extreme Speed are great bonuses.

 

[ohninjaplease]

Hey - Dr Hemington here.

Got a sample set for Tornadus?

 

[Thatmandan01]

Why is there only one team WITHOUT murkrow

 

[DaWoblefet]

The Viability Rankings have been updated! With thanks to Lord Death Man, Yuichi, Smudge, zee, Arcticblast, and laptops for contributing to this session of votes (and especially Arcticblast for preparing the voting documents!).

Nominations:
Amoonguss 3 -> 4

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4, likely a worse Sinistcha because of Miraidon giving easily accessible Spore counterplay. You have to run a Terrain setter of your own to reliably Spore.
Lord Death Man: 4. It’s pretty bad but it has a notable niche, needing to sit next to a different redirector to spore things is pretty garbage though.
Yuichi: 4
Smudge: 4. Not very viable as a redirector. Strong neutral hits kind of demolish it and it just dies to T1 Koraidon. Trick room is only somewhat common and it loses to the primary setter in Caly-Ice by default. With the high Miraidon usage, it’s completely locked out of spore as well, losing the last bit of utility
Zee: 4. Miraidon’s usage is just really bad for it. Running Indeedee to combat Electric Terrain isn’t particularly ideal either, and there are just stronger support options.
Arcticblast: 4. I think Miraidon negating Spore is just so rough for Amoonguss, and being “just” a Rage Powder user isn’t enough. Calyrex can use Pollen Puff if you’re desperate for that, or you can just use Heal Pulse Indeedee.
Laptops: forces you to run indeedee to spore which is lame. There are better redirectors

Arceus-Fire UR -> 3/4

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 3
Lord Death Man: 3
Yuichi:3
Smudge:3
Zee: 3, great resistances
Arcticblast: 3. You play well with both Sun setters, you resist Zacian and Ice, and you are an Arceus. Great support Pokemon.
laptops:3

Arceus-Water 4 -> 2/UR

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: UR, one of the worst support Arceus for the same reason Kyogre is bad.
Lord Death Man: UR
Yuichi:4
Smudge:4
Zee: 4, hard to sell me on a water type in this format
Arcticblast: 3. You lose to Miraidon and struggle with all the sun, but you trade that for beating Groudon more consistently and you fare better into Calyrex-Ice. Tera Fire is a pretty common Tera and you can discourage that, which gives your Zacian or Koraidon a little more room to go wild. Importantly, it’s not a win condition like Kyogre is, it’s an Arceus, so you can afford to drop a matchup here and there. Still a great support Pokemon.
Laptops: ur use a diff arceus type please

Calyrex-Ice 3 -> 2

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 2
Lord Death Man: 2, feels like the primary reason TR is viable.
Yuichi:3
Smudge:2
Zee: 2, god tier bulk + output and pairs with Miraidon for the BOLTBEAMSPEEDSANDWICH
Arcticblast: 2. Best TR setter, great spread attacker, just all-around good.
Laptops: 2 best tr setter/attacker in the tier. Also just a really strong bulky attacker

Calyrex-Shadow 1 -> 2

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 1, this Pokemon is extremely strong and always contributes to offensive pressure in games. Requires multiple checks to prevent steamrolling, and has useful support moves in the few situations where damage trades aren’t favorable.
Lord Death Man: 1. The reason you don’t use it is because you have the other one, usually.
Yuichi:1
Smudge:1
Zee: 1, not respecting the horse is a recipe for disaster and it can win games in a single turn easier than anything else in the tier.
Arcticblast: 2. I think this guy’s just a little too frail for the damage it provides. It trades very poorly into Miraidon, it really sucks against all the Assault Vests, and it can struggle against Zamazenta. Still the fastest thing in the format and still a threat, but I’m not convinced it’s tier 1.
Laptops:1 the horses are both meta defining. Face of ho and can run more supportive sets successfully as well.

Chi-Yu 4 -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4, it offers little on its own as a teamslot beyond powering up partners.
Lord Death Man: 4.
Yuichi:3
Smudge:4
Zee: 4, beads is cute and scarf can get some surprise KOs on SE targets but it’s really frail and there are more ideal scarfers.
Arcticblast: 4. It’s kind of just an ability. Has one good matchup in Caly-S, but you kind of just fall over against the mostly physical format.
Laptops: UR

Eternatus 4 -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4, Eternatus’s niche of Cosmic Power stall is limited by severe 4MSS, wanting Dynamax Cannon, Flamethrower, Toxic, Cosmic Power, and Recover, not to mention Protect. Nothing viable gets Psych Up which means there’s nothing DUbers-power level to take advantage of all the setup turns required in investment either.
Lord Death Man: 4. The possibility of running away with games is counterbalanced by the possibility of being a completely dead slot and a tera hog.
Yuichi:4
Smudge:4 only demands a tiny bit of respect in the builder to shut down completely + MSS
Zee: 4. fish.
Arcticblast: 4. I know I nominated it to 3, I think I’ve just changed my mind. Kind of a matchup fish.
Laptops: 4 cm toxic is its only good set. Can be passive/needs free turns to get going

Flutter Mane 4 -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 3
Lord Death Man: 4
Yuichi:4
Smudge:3 sash/specs are both good and easy to use
Zee: 3, it’s a flutter mane in a tier with more abundant protosynthesis activation and a normal immunity is always appreciated.
Arcticblast: 4. I just haven’t really seen enough of it. I think it’s good on paper but I’m worried that it just doesn’t have enough going for it to be a tier 3.
Laptops: 4

Grimmsnarl 4 -> 2

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 2
Lord Death Man: 3
Yuichi:2
Smudge:2
Zee: 3
Arcticblast: 3. Screens are great but hardly necessary, and Grimm is real bad into Zamazenta.
Laptops: 3

Groudon 3 -> 2

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 3, I don’t see the hype. Miraidon still does a crazy amount of damage to this Pokemon, and rocks don’t have especially impressive targets, and I don’t see folks taking advantage of Will-o-Wisp. It’s a fine Pokemon, but not on the same power level as other tier 2 Pokemon.
Lord Death Man: 3.
Yuichi:2
Smudge:2, vest set is good into mirai and puts a lot of damage across the board generally
Zee: 3, echo everything wob said
Arcticblast: 2. Ground is incredible right now, and both Assault Vest and Swords Dance are powerful and not too hard to support. Most Miraidon running Choice items means Groudon gets to switch in pretty easily.
Laptops:3

Iron Valiant UR -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4, has many useful moves and a great Speed tier that can easily be boosted, but is extremely frail and less effective when you respect its support moves.
Lord Death Man: 4.
Yuichi:3
Smudge:4
Zee: 4, outrunning dragons and packing moonblast + tons of cool support moves is def worth ranking
Arcticblast: 4. I’m still not convinced here either; it’s kind of just a fast utility bot. If it had a bit more Defense I’d think it’s a cool Ekiller answer, but as it stands I don’t like it much. Still worth ranking!
laptops:4

Koraidon 2 -> 1

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 1
Lord Death Man: 1.
Yuichi:1
Smudge: 1
Zee: 1, bikes are god
Arcticblast: 1. I think the bikes are incredible and almost as meta-defining as Arceus. Tera boosted Flare Blitzes are killer, AV has so much bulk, and it’s just all around a great Pokemon.
Laptops: 1 voted this for 1 last slate and it’s only gotten better as people start using good sets (vest and scarf). Double sun is the most dominant style right now with this guy as the head enabler and abuser. Great speed tier and bulk and fire tera gives it good offensive and defensive plays.

Kyogre 1 -> 3/4

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4
Lord Death Man: 4 or 5, I think this is outright bad.
Yuichi:4
Smudge: 4 or 5. bad bad bad
Zee: 4, it loses to all the best pokemon in the tier and most teams will just build good matchups into it without even trying.
Arcticblast: We should make tier 5 exclusively for Kyogre. The big fish has no good matchups. Maybe Magearna? Idk. Sucks.
Laptops:4 would be 5 if we had a tier 5

Magearna 2 -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 3
Lord Death Man: 3. I’m a strong believer but in the current meta you often have to pull team support away from Magearna.
Yuichi:3
Smudge: 3 committal in teambuilder and somewhat hard to get rolling
Zee: 3, takes some very careful positioning to use effectively but it’s still one of the scariest pokemon in the tier and should always be respected.
Arcticblast: 3. It’s powerful, but it requires a lot of support, to the point that you basically need to build your entire team around it. Way less flexible than I thought it might be.
Laptops: 3

Miraidon 2 -> 1

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 1
Lord Death Man: 1.
Yuichi:1
Smudge: 1 its god
Zee: 1, bikes are god pt 2
Arcticblast: 1. This is the best Pokemon in the format, and if you think otherwise, you haven’t used it.
Laptops:1

Rayquaza 3 -> 4

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4
Lord Death Man: 4.
Yuichi:4
Smudge: 4 not sure what the use is but hits hard enough to not be UR
Zee: 4
Arcticblast: 4. Pretty much exactly what Smudge said. Maybe Tera Normal ESpeed is okay? Air Lock might be okay into Koraidon? Dunno.
Laptops: 4

Sableye UR -> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 4
Lord Death Man: 4.
Yuichi:3
Smudge:3 prankster wisp is just nuts
Zee: 3, wisp is insane in this tier + it has a morbillion other useful moves to fit a lot of different needs.
Arcticblast: 3. The perfect storm of annoying. The current meta is heavy on the physical side, and Prankster Wisp shuts so much down. Fake Out is great, Quash is surprisingly excellent, Trick Lagging Tail is probably good (does it still get Trick?), and it’s immune to Extreme Speed.
Laptops: 4

Ting-Lu 3 -> UR

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: UR
Lord Death Man: 5 or UR.
Yuichi:5
Smudge:UR
Zee: UR, dies to everything except shadow rider i guess.
Arcticblast: UR. What does this do? Does it even actually beat Calyrex-Shadow?
Laptops: UR

Tornadus 2-> 3

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 2, Tailwind offense is still very good and Tornadus is the best Pokemon to perform with it.
Lord Death Man: 2. It defines an archetype.
Yuichi:3
Smudge: 2
Zee: 3, tornadus can be useless against TR compositions and there are ways to beat tornadus teams without matching tailwind, but it’s still strong enough that every team needs to consider their tailwind offense matchup
Arcticblast: 3. I think Tailwind is great, but I would almost always rather use an Arceus over Tornadus. Not every team needs an Ekiller.
Laptops: 2

Zamazenta-Crowned 3 -> 1/2

Reasoning

DaWoblefet: 2
Lord Death Man: 2.
Yuichi:1
Smudge:1
Zee: 2, one of the few strong setup options in the tier and great utility moves, but slow to get going/tough to position in a way where it wins the game on the spot
Arcticblast: 2. I don’t think it’s quite good enough for tier 1, but it’s a very good Pokemon. One of the most consistent bulky Pokemon in the format, and Body Press hurts. (Stop using Protect! Wide Guard is so good!)
Laptops: 2

Low tier sweep

Results:
Amoonguss 3 -> 4
Arceus-Fire UR -> 3
Arceus-Fairy UR -> 4
Armarouge UR -> 4
Calyrex-Ice 3 -> 2
Dialga-Origin 4 -> UR
Grimmsnarl 4 -> 3
Iron Moth UR -> 4
Iron Valiant 4 -> 3
Kingambit 4 -> UR
Koraidon 2 -> 1
Kyogre 1 -> 4
Magearna 2 -> 3
Miraidon 2 -> 1
Palkia-Origin 4 -> UR
Rayquaza 3 -> 4
Regieleki 4 -> UR
Rillaboom UR -> 4
Sableye UR -> 3
Ting-Lu 3 -> UR
Urshifu-Single-Strike 4 -> UR
Zamazenta-Crowned 3 -> 2

 

[Olivia-Sama]

Been getting pretty invested this past month in Doubles Ubers, used a wide array of teams but the one that got me to #1 was this team by Hopeless on discord (idk how to add his smogon username but he said he was proud when I beat 1oni 2oni 3oni 4oni and 5oni with this team). Here's a fun replay from the laddering time with this team, where I won a few games in a row vs 1oni-5oni's psyspam that they changed the team to hard counterteam https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2005708092-unhwdho38k70bioatx7bd8ov4dchlthpw Hopeless said you all would probably enjoy :D

Heya! I very recently started playing the tier (less than 2 days ago) but after going through some resources, watching games in Derby, and grabbing a team off of charmdi (Hopeless on discord) , with some minor tweaks by myself; I managed to push my account into the top 20 slots on ladder using a Skeledirge team.
View attachment 550061

- - - - -


A previous post in the thread noted how powerful Screens are in the format, and I'm inclined to agree. Grimmsnarl's screens can buy invaluable time for setup demons like Magearna, Ekiller Arceus, and in this case Skeledirge to muscle through many of the pokemon in the tier or offer critical defensive utility against some of the largest threats. Skeledirge is optimizedto abuse screens, ignoring potential counterplay from setup mons that would otherwise break past the defenses, crippling most of the common breakers in the tier Such as Zacian, Ice Rider, Koraidon and Groudon with Will-o-wisp, and recovering chip taken with ease. Skeledirge's typing is a blessing into most of the Dubers metagame, a blessing that has granted it a top tier rating in singles Ubers with its natural advantages over most of the Physical attackers in gen 9. Will-o-wisp further crippling them, and with few Fires around in Dubers at the moment, Dirge wisp can be very hard to stop from getting some level of marginal value, either crippling a physical threat or offering helpful chip damage against special attackers in a tier where healing and status control are much harder to come by than in lower tiers where Skeledirge's utility can be blocked/stalled a bit easier. Although it may appear that Skeledirge is weak to special attackers, it can manage quite well screens up and the ability to Tera water into Kyogre and Calyrex shadow. It completely walls Magearna sets lacking stored power both before and after tera thanks to Unaware and the other members of the team can cover any remnant weaknesses.


While Skeledirge has a great matchup spread into the ubers metagame, it's not invincible. Scarfed miraidon makes for an exceptional partner that can deal with problems that the main defensive core of this team might otherwise struggle with, such as opposing Miraidon, Kyogre, and the occasional Dark shifu. It's a solid threat here that really binds the team with its ability to threaten opposing problem mons and notably makes for a good lead pick with its ability to pivot in a defensive option.


Arceus Water serves to threaten any opposing Fire teras or occasional mons such as Chi yu and Groudon while compressing speed control options that provide essential mons such as Miraidon and Magearna space to work with into opposing speed control. Having both moves on the same set can really throw off opponents and lead to some funny replays. The Leftovers is a viable option to provide some sustainability on this set but arceus typically will last several turns with screens even without recovery and greatly appreciates the water boosting power of the Splash Plate into Groudon and making use of it to overclock its damage output into Kyogre teams, seeing as this team lacks its own weather control option.


This little demon thrives under screens, oftentimes surviving entire games off nothing more than leftovers, subtect, and being able to obliterate everything in sight. It's Eved to hit 406 speed under Tailwind from Arceus, beating the ever present 135 speed tier mons while still being able to exploit trick room if it's up into many teams. Magearna benefitting from its own teammates dropping is a boon with Grimmsnarl, who may find itself nothing more than death fodder after a round of screens or two if it can't find a spirit break target, giving a safe switch to a mont hat can further enable it. (usually to water Arceus or Skeledirge)


It's Calyrex, perfectly competent in and out of screens, and ready to clean up mons left chipped by the rest of the team at a moment's notice while being somewhat difficult to KO behind screens, sash for insurance against opposing shadow riders.


This team has an incredibly matchup into Ice rider, Zacian and Ekiller Arceus, with Skeledirge and Magearna being able to work in tandem to wall the them very effectively and prevent progress. This team has some issues dealing with Amoongus, with no immediate way to dispatch of it, and if the meta shifts to carry more coverage for fires and steels, the main screens abusing core would potentially struggle. Skeledirge is also slightly reliant on tera but it was quite common I found myself using tera on other pokemon.


Some Misc Replays from a few styles of ladder teams:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940184850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940211266
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-1940226468-m4f4qdc9kgc3br6005x1ydx22ihep22pw


TL;DR:
Skeledirge is a valuable pokemon into a large portion of the dubers metagame thanks to its typing and ability allowing it to be an effective tank and threat given the right support, just as it is in singles.

 

[SpencerJRocks]

Hi Oni, Spencer here I have been meaning to get in touch for a while but could never find you. I have like 0 wins against you and is shocked how high on ladder you stay and I was wondering how you win so consistently. If you see me online (username : SpencerJRock) can you tell me.

C ya and congrats on 2nd on ladder

 

[Arcticblast]

Teal Mask really didn't add anything super notable for DUbers, so it's been a little quiet over here. I tried out double sun with Ogerpon-Hearthflame, but the Ogerpon felt like it wasn't really contributing anything. If anything, Grassy Glide made Rillaboom a little better as an answer to Miraidon and Indeedee, which... just puts Kyogre further into the dirt.

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to dig into DUbers since Indigo Disk launched, but at least this time there's actual Pokemon to talk about! Here's what I'm interested in:

Lunala - This is definitely the Pokemon I'm most excited about that we got from the new DLC. Lunala not only has all the utility moves under the sun and a cool typing, but it has a pretty good matchup into the bikes thanks to Shadow Shield and its raw stats. Tera works great with Shadow Shield too, meaning Calyrex and Arceus don't just get to freely launch their Ghost moves into it. The quad weakness to Grimmsnarl's Foul Play hurts, but I can think of worse things.

Dusk Mane Necrozma - This is probably the second best Trick Room setter in the format next to Ice Rider Calyrex, and I think TR in DUbers has needed a power boost for a little while. Resisting Extreme Speed is a huge boon, but a bad matchup into bikes hurts its playability. Still a good addition!

Whimsicott - idk it's a Tornadus that doesn't die to Volt Switch lmao

Terapagos - I'm not really sure how to feel about the turtle. I think it's a super cool Pokemon with a lot of potential, and I really like the ability to stop the bikes in their tracks, but beyond that I'm not sure how effective it'll be. I think this is the kind of Pokemon that will excel in the hands of dedicated players who can figure out what it needs to succeed, but I don't think it'll be super splashable and I expect a lot of Terapagos teams to feature some similar Pokemon.

Expanding Force - It's back! Calyrex can now lose to Wide Guard even harder than ever before! Jokes aside, I think Expanding Force will overall help the diversity of the format a little bit. Miraidon needs a little competition for terrain, and DUbers now has all of Calyrex, Lunala, Dawn Wings Necrozma, and maybe even Mewtwo that can use it well, in addition to some possible lower tier additions like Deoxys-Attack and Hoopa-Unbound.

Ho-oh - I have always thought Ho-oh is cool, and I think it's pretty close to having a niche in the format; while Dragon Claw hurts, Ho-oh resists all of Koraidon's other moves and can take advantage of the sun. It's also - FINALLY - a Ground immunity on an Uber power level Pokemon! We finally have a Precipice Blades switchin! I think Ho-oh struggles against some other top threats like Ekiller and Miraidon though, so I don't expect raw offensive sets to do well.

Incineroar - I think a lot of people are excited for this, but uh... let me know when you can fix the Specs Electro Drift problem. I'll be waiting. At least it matches up well into Calyrex, Zacian, and now Lunala.

This year's circuit is jam packed full of stuff immediately, but once I find some time, I'll try to experiment more with some of these new Pokemon. Hopefully we can get a new VR vote before too long, and some sample teams to go with it!

 

[SpencerJRocks]

Hi gang! Just was wondering if there will be a double Ubers tournament this year and if so how to qualify. I have bean looking and could not find anything. Any idea, or is there one I don’t know about?

 

[mighark]

Hi, I'm a relatively new player and I've been playing this tier for a while, mostly because I was coping with Terapagos being garbage in singles Ubers, but I found the tier incredibly fun and criminally underdiscussed. So I said, fine I'll do it myself, and decided to make this post. I'm a bit underexperienced but I managed to get top 20 on the ladder with my alt, I hope that's enough to not make any blatantly incorrect comments on the meta.

I've been using this team, I've been tweaking it as I play more, but the current version is this one. I obviously wanted to use Terapagos since it's the reason I started playing the tier, and the team is probably far from perfect, but decent enough to win games against good players using hopefully good teams. Lately I've been trying to branch out a bit, but not enough to have a clear picture on the rest of the meta.

Terapagos: I've kept using it because I really like it, but honestly I'm not convinced it's that great. It's kind of like Magearna where if you don't respect it it will spiral out of control, but it's not that hard to stop. It requires you to Tera to become a win condition, but it isn't unreasonably hard to deal with once you do. Teraform Zero is very limited, being only once per battle and the main weather user in the tier threatens to KO you even if you remove the weather. Tera Starstorm is a great move, but the Stellar version gets the 1.2 boost instead of STAB making it weaker than it seems, and being so reliant on a spread move means Wide Guard destroys it, especially since all its Uber users match up well into base Terapagos. It has a good matchup into Calyrex-Shadow, being immune to Astral Barrage and being able to remove terrain to weaken Expanding Force, and threatens big damage with Dark Pulse unless it teras, in which case Stellar Tera Starstorm is super effective. Slowing down Miraidon and other weather strats is also helpful, but ultimately I don't think it's a meta staple. I do think it can be a threat, just not sure it's going to make a big impact.

Miraidon: I love this mon, the few Electric resists in the tier don't want to take a Draco, and Volt Switch allows it to pivot and do big damage at the same time. Its terrain prevents sleep which is wonderful because Spore and Dark Void are very annoying, and denying Psychic Terrain is great utility. It's a good Tera user too, this mon is the perfect combination of amazing offense while not being one dimensional.

Calyrex-Shadow: an incredibly polarizing mon, it will sweep any team that is not exhaustively prepared for it. While it struggles against Wide Guard and its poor bulk can be a problem, no other mon has such absurd firepower on spread moves while being this fast. It loves Tera as well, since targeting its weaknesses or barely taking one hit to trade with it are sometimes the only option. Unless you have your own terrain or a Wide Guard user this mon just cooks you with Expanding Force.

Calyrex-Ice: this mon's stocks are down with how strong Calyrex-S is with Expanding Force, but it's still terrifying in Trick Room and trades pretty well into the bikes. I'm not totally sold on TR on this meta, but if there's a reason to use it, it's this mon.

Zamazenta: coming from singles and knowing it was a joke in last gen VGC, I was surprised by how cracked this mon is. This tier doesn't have Intimidate users, so this mon is the main reason why having too many physical attackers is a bad idea. It's at the same time a bulky wincon and a great support mon. Wide Guard is so good with EF Calyrex-S running around.

Overall I like the meta, it's volatile but that's the nature of Ubers, and the brokens do check the other brokens in this format.

 

[Dr Hemington]

Got a sample set for Tornadus?

Hey - sorry that this response is so late. I have no idea what works well on Tornadus because, ultimately, I don’t think Tornadus is good in DUbers; or at least I’ve no motivation to use it. If I had to guess I’d just run full bulk w/ covert cloak. It’s a very defensive format and you’re unlikely to encounter tornadus mirrors.

 

[Dr Hemington]

Hey - Dr Hemington here. I spent a few months away from Pokémon but I’ve come back to discover that the format’s matured quite a bit more, and it’s great to see. After a few weeks of feeling out adaptations to these meta changes I made it back to Rank 1. I’ve only ‘just’ reached the number 1 spot and would need to play more to be convinced that I’ve found the dominant strategy in the format but I thought I would write up on it anyway to provide my thoughts and push for updates to the tier lists.



As you can see my team looks remarkably similar to the team that made R1 in mid-2023. I still believe that Grimmsnarl is the strongest Pokémon in the format and that Light Clay screens are better than any form of speed control, and I think that the core of Groudon, Koraidon and Arceus-Fire is dominant. Kyogre’s prevalence has fallen in response to this core and so I’m not side-winding as many unprepared teams as much, but frankly, people opting out of contesting your weather condition is a really nice problem to have, and makes Arceus an extremely effective damage trader.



Miraidon’s still around, and with largely the same philosophy. Opposing psychic terrain’s started to disrupt Miraidon with the return of expanding force but Miraidon disrupts psychic terrain in return. I’m not sure if Miraidon is a must use but I haven’t constructed a totally-successful team without it.



The new addition is Zamazenta-Crowned in exchange for Calyrex-Ice Rider. There are a number of reasons why Calyrex no longer suited my team. Firstly, the team became more defensive in terms of investment across the board. This props up the team against Trick Room in lieu of a counter. More significantly, Fire Pokémon have shifted from unpopular to very popular, and juicy targets like Rayquaza are now non-existent. Gone are the days of big Calyrex mismatches and Glacial Lance cutting through entire teams. Most notably, my team became scourged by intimidate, will-o-wisp and other means of shutting down physical attackers. Incineroar was proving a particular problem because Parting Shot would force Arceus to switch when it would prefer to spam cosmic power.



I tried out a number of alternatives. I was intrigued to see how Terapagos would fare and I was initially satisfied. Terapagos is a very unique Pokémon that works especially well behind screens. The set I used was Tera Starstorm, Calm Mind, Rest and Toxic. Being normal-type and having Tera Shield was enormously freeing when it came to defensive switching, which my team really struggled with. Terapagos was extremely difficult to remove from the field, especially if the opponent was using special attackers. Thanks to its extremely good defensive and offensive typing it made a reliable and formidable lead, and +2 or +3 Stellar Tera Starstorm could cleave through big chunks of an opponent’s team.



My challenge with Terapagos was that it wasn’t worth saving my Tera for. Sure, you could be flexible and terastalise a different Pokémon if the situation demanded it, and sure Terapagos-terastal would ‘show up’ but then you’ve got a significantly underpowered Pokémon on your team. It dampens the upside and enhances the risk of a potentially game-changing Tera. Furthermore, Terapagos-stellar isn’t a raid boss right out of the box. It does require stat boosts to get rolling, and Calm Mind Terapagos isn’t quite as much of a defensive lockout as Cosmic Power Arceus. If your opponent has a Zamazenta or a Koraidon, they have the threat of one-shotting you. I also found that, although Teraform Zero was able to make weather and terrain control ‘even more difficult’ for opponents, there were many seemingly unavoidable situations where it would remove my own sun or my own terrain. Overall I found the freedom of opportunistically terastalising when I was using other Pokémon in this slot much better than using Terapagos, though I’m not writing it off. Someone may be able to integrate it into a good strategy. I think it deserves to be tiered at 3 / 4.



I also tried Ho-oh in this slot. Sacred Fire, Life Dew, Brave Bird, Protect + Max Bulk. The combination of Regenerator and Life Dew made Ho-oh quite effective on a team that was very focussed on endurance and sustain. Ho-oh benefited from the sun, and the more support oriented kit as well as Regenerator’s reward for switching made intimidate unimportant to it. Additionally, the ground immunity justified the typing choice, whereas an alternative like Reshiram couldn’t work for this reason.



My main issue with Ho-oh was what I’d always suspected which was that Ho-oh’s simply underpowered. The restricted legendaries from Gens 1, 2, 4, 5 and to a lesser extent 6 and 7 all suffer from power creep. They have their 680 base stats, an enhanced attack and a quality-of-life ability but beyond that struggle to compete with other options. Especially on a screens-focused trading team, raw combat stats are just so important. Sometimes Ho-oh was an indomitable bully, undoing all of my opponent’s work without a care, cycling in and out and producing lots of value. Other games, Ho-oh wouldn’t be capable of providing the necessary sustain and you didn’t even feel there was a way to prevent that. I couldn’t place it in a tier yet - it’s interesting, and honestly feels close to being good. Perhaps it’s viable as an alternative to Arceus-Fire rather than a partner to it but I wasn’t able to make it work.



Knowing that I couldn’t afford to use an underpowered restricted, I started to experiment and had a bizarre thought. What about Kyogre? It seemed silly on a team that had the main priority of using sun to remove rain but it actually climbed to 3rd on the ladder. The reasoning was there. The Grimmsnarl sun core was a challenging core to face up against, and teams would have to play very precisely in order to successfully overcome it through screens. Having Kyogre on the team meant that not only did my opponent need to be prepared for a defensive slog in the sun, but also never misposition themselves to suddenly get wiped by a scarf Kyogre.



As amusing as this was, scarf Kyogre simply gave too much away against Trick Room. The fact it was anti-team philosophy was precisely what made Kyogre work in the first place, but you really feel like you’re tempting fate playing it and against better competition that fate tends to arrive. I didn’t bother giving tank-Ogre a spin but I suspect it would’ve caused other issues.



Zamazenta-Crowned was the answer. I was initially wary of using Zamazenta because it opens up an uncontested triple ground-type weakness, but I then realised that Zamazenta’s access to wide guard makes it a Groudon counter fundamentally, not to mention well matched up against Kyogre and Calyrex. Additionally, Body Press meant that intimidate wasn’t an issue for Zamazenta. It’s a very effective Incin counter, as well as a significant threat to normal Arceus, which was always a modest issue because my team’s defensive build made Arceus difficult to remove.

Other small changes happened to the team. Groudon switched its scarf for an Assault Vest.
I optimised some EV spreads, Breaking Swipe > Outrage on AV Koraidon. That’s about it.

Overall I’d say the competition’s clearly improved significantly. I think the ladder is in a healthier way than it was before and that’s definitely affected it. I’m surprised at how many people are holding out on ditching underpowered support Pokémon, though I am impressed and often scared of much of the cheese.

In terms of ranking revisions, I think without question Grimmsnarl needs to move to tier 1. Archmage Kuzan, currently 2nd on the ladder, also runs Grimmsnarl and we’re sold on it. Additionally, while I appreciate that in an insular sense Groudon and Arceus-Fire might not deserve tier 1, the core of Groudon Arceus Fire and Koraidon definitely is. Arceus-Fire’s whole identity is tied up with the sun team and so I’m adamant it’s a tier-1 Pokémon, even if it can’t be plug-and-played into every team. Groudon could be tier-1 for this same reason but I see Groudon often used outside of the core, and for those applications I think it’s lacklustre, so tier-2 might be appropriate.

Anyway, thanks for reading my update - I hope to see you guys on the ladder :)

 

[hundredswords]

Before testing this team i wouldve never believed you if you told me this team works.its a bunch of unorthodox picks but it sealed the deal.i have been playing a lot of vgc lately so that was part of my inspiration.here is the team

The big feesh and his men
angry bear (Urshifu-Rapid-Strike) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Surging Strikes
- U-turn
- Aqua Jet

green buff man (Tornadus) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Rain Dance
- Bleakwind Storm
- Protect

big feesh (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

small feesh (Basculegion) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects
- Wave Crash
- Psychic Fangs
- Tera Blast

fat mouse (Raichu) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Lightning Rod
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Electroweb
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle

brown buff dog (Landorus-Therian) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Tera Blast
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Here is the explanation!
this is a pretty straightforward rain team but that is pretty weird in doubles ubers.basically a kyogre+torn core along with some others.with this team you always want to keep the rain up so that you can always have an upper hand.

Kyogre (the messiah)
kyogre with choice scarf is pretty self explanatory.it just basically blasts through teams like no other along with tornadus.tera water water spout can OKHO so many things on the roster even resisted mons.

Tornadus (the turbines)
tornadus with sash can support the team in so many ways.tailwind and bleakwind are common but rain dance is a special addition.just rip through the pesky groudons even after they reset the weather.

urshifu-r (the wallbreaker)
not neccesarily the best mon on the team but it does its job perfectly.takes some unbelievable ohkos which can be massive.

raichu (shock absorbing tyres(pun intended))
one of the more controversial picks but ill tell you this thing fits on the team so well.this set directly takes inspiration from wolfe glick's 2016 world championship team and walls pretty much all electric types.mainly iron hands gets mollywhalled because raichu + basculegion cannot be tounched by it

basculegion(the wipers)
pretty much cleans everything up fom the bottom to the top.choice scarf along with rain allows it to outspeed miraidon under tailwind.bonkers!last respects is just too busted

landorous(the lawnmower)
cleans up all the grass/electric types and also intimidate allows it to live longer. with tera flying tera blast does a lot of damage

this team is absolutely not a gimmick and believe it or not i have climbed a lot on the ladder with this team.500 points!this team takes the crown for me.

 

[Dr Hemington]

Before testing this team i wouldve never believed you if you told me this team works.its a bunch of unorthodox picks but it sealed the deal.i have been playing a lot of vgc lately so that was part of my inspiration.here is the team

The big feesh and his men
angry bear (Urshifu-Rapid-Strike) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Surging Strikes
- U-turn
- Aqua Jet

green buff man (Tornadus) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Rain Dance
- Bleakwind Storm
- Protect

big feesh (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

small feesh (Basculegion) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects
- Wave Crash
- Psychic Fangs
- Tera Blast

fat mouse (Raichu) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Lightning Rod
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Electroweb
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle

brown buff dog (Landorus-Therian) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Tera Blast
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Here is the explanation!
this is a pretty straightforward rain team but that is pretty weird in doubles ubers.basically a kyogre+torn core along with some others.with this team you always want to keep the rain up so that you can always have an upper hand.

Kyogre (the messiah)
kyogre with choice scarf is pretty self explanatory.it just basically blasts through teams like no other along with tornadus.tera water water spout can OKHO so many things on the roster even resisted mons.

Tornadus (the turbines)
tornadus with sash can support the team in so many ways.tailwind and bleakwind are common but rain dance is a special addition.just rip through the pesky groudons even after they reset the weather.

urshifu-r (the wallbreaker)
not neccesarily the best mon on the team but it does its job perfectly.takes some unbelievable ohkos which can be massive.

raichu (shock absorbing tyres(pun intended))
one of the more controversial picks but ill tell you this thing fits on the team so well.this set directly takes inspiration from wolfe glick's 2016 world championship team and walls pretty much all electric types.mainly iron hands gets mollywhalled because raichu + basculegion cannot be tounched by it

basculegion(the wipers)
pretty much cleans everything up fom the bottom to the top.choice scarf along with rain allows it to outspeed miraidon under tailwind.bonkers!last respects is just too busted

landorous(the lawnmower)
cleans up all the grass/electric types and also intimidate allows it to live longer. with tera flying tera blast does a lot of damage

this team is absolutely not a gimmick and believe it or not i have climbed a lot on the ladder with this team.500 points!this team takes the crown for me.

Hey. I’m glad you’re enjoying DUbers, but while I’m not a mod, I think some would take issue with this post.

You mentioned that you were from a VGC background and I can see how the team you’ve constructed makes conceptual sense for a hypothetical future VGC format. If you’re testing for that purpose, then this post makes more sense, although that’s not really what this thread is for.

It’s implied though that you’re promoting this team as a premier choice for DUbers, which is where I believe most would disagree. It’s not obvious from your post but I think you’ve mentioned that you reached 1500 Elo in the ladder? Anyone who’s any Elo is welcome to join in the conversation about this format, but this post is very brazen in its self-praise when it hasn’t approached the top of the ladder and many of the Pokémon lack precedent at the top of the ladder. While Raichu makes sense on a team with this many water-types, I wouldn’t hold my breath about it being viable at high-level. Similarly, Landorus-Therian’s been written off as a bad Pokémon in this format. Kyogre teams in general are scarce at the top.

I don’t mean to seem like I’m ‘telling you off’, because I’m not. I like the thinking behind your team, but it’s the case in any game that if you’re going to speak highly about an unconventional strategy you created, you need to have the proof and the credentials.

 

[SpencerJRocks]

Hey. I’m glad you’re enjoying DUbers, but while I’m not a mod, I think some would take issue with this post.

You mentioned that you were from a VGC background and I can see how the team you’ve constructed makes conceptual sense for a hypothetical future VGC format. If you’re testing for that purpose, then this post makes more sense, although that’s not really what this thread is for.

It’s implied though that you’re promoting this team as a premier choice for DUbers, which is where I believe most would disagree. It’s not obvious from your post but I think you’ve mentioned that you reached 1500 Elo in the ladder? Anyone who’s any Elo is welcome to join in the conversation about this format, but this post is very brazen in its self-praise when it hasn’t approached the top of the ladder and many of the Pokémon lack precedent at the top of the ladder. While Raichu makes sense on a team with this many water-types, I wouldn’t hold my breath about it being viable at high-level. Similarly, Landorus-Therian’s been written off as a bad Pokémon in this format. Kyogre teams in general are scarce at the top.

I don’t mean to seem like I’m ‘telling you off’, because I’m not. I like the thinking behind your team, but it’s the case in any game that if you’re going to speak highly about an unconventional strategy you created, you need to have the proof and the credentials.

Love the VGC idea, a friend of mine has a team that was built for VGC but thrived on doubles Ubers. He is the Necrozma User and spoiler he uses necrozma. Keep working and the VGC idea might work.