Policy Review Discussion - CAP Projects for metagames other than OU

[Aerodactyl Legend]

There are two ways I see it on when/how the tier could be selected.

One, the OU should be the tier we'll focus on principle (meaning it'll be the default tier). If there's no talk of the next project for another tier by anyone, then we'll just do OU like normal.

We could also make sure we do at least two/three OU projects or so, before we discuss about whether or not the next will be another tier.

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Two, after establishing the PR team and TL/ATL, then a poll can be posted asking what tier to focus on. What I don't like about it is that it means by just seeing, say, the Uber tier available, a lot of members (especially those new to CAP) might select it just because we'll have the ability to create a powerful Pokemon. This is not a problem, but if done for every project, then it's likely to do Uber multiple times (one after another), when OU gives us the most learning opportunities.

We could allow only CAP mods, TL, ATL, and the PRT to vote on the poll, but that removes the community input about a critical issue.

 

[Solstice]

There are two ways I see it on when/how the tier could be selected.

One, the OU should be the tier we'll focus on principle (meaning it'll be the default tier). If there's no talk of the next project for another tier by anyone, then we'll just do OU like normal.

We could also make sure we do at least two/three OU projects or so, before we discuss about whether or not the next will be another tier.

--

Two, after establishing the PR team and TL/ATL, then a poll can be posted asking what tier to focus on. What I don't like about it is that it means by just seeing, say, the Uber tier available, a lot of members (especially those new to CAP) might select it just because we'll have the ability to create a powerful Pokemon. This is not a problem, but if done for every project, then it's likely to do Uber multiple times (one after another), when OU gives us the most learning opportunities.

We could allow only CAP mods, TL, ATL, and the PRT to vote on the poll, but that removes the community input about a critical issue.

I agree with Aerodactyl on the statement bolded above. I've regularly lurked in CaP since Arghonaut, and from what I've noticed the project isn't prepared to attempt a new tier right now because of the 5th generation metagame shift. We're not in a stable position, certainly not like where we were during the later CaPs of 4th gen where there was a regular rhythm to the process. Right now I feel the best solution is to make CaP 2 another OU Pokemon for purposes of steamlining the process so that if enough interest is shown in an Uber or UU CaP we have the support and system prepared for such an instance.

 

[Theorymon]

I'm not going to elaborate too much atm since Im going to bed soon, but I would like to note that imo, now is actually the best time for an Ubers CAP because OU still has the suspect test going on since Baton Pass got a simple majority. Because of stuff like suspect tests, Ubers is a more stable tier than OU. I'm not saying that CAP2 needs to be Uber, but I just don't buy the fact that 5th gen's shifts mean that CAP 2 needs to be an OU Pokemon.

I'll elaborate more on the actual Uber CAP stuff tomorrow, I have some ideas on how to address things such as movepools! Not like a hard rule persay, but more of a soft one like the proposed BST limitations.

 

[jas61292]

While I agree with Theorymon that now is actually a great time in the development of the metagame for us to try out an Uber CAP, I believe that at this point, trying to get the CAP process and participation throughout the forum back to normal is the most important thing. As such, I would think that a regular OU CAP would be the best thing to do at this point. Even if the metagame is not as stable as we would like, and we don't learn as much as we have in the past, getting the project back on track should be priority number one, and since participation from the community is a huge part of CAP, doing one in the most popular tier is the best way to do it.

If we are able to do a normal OU CAP project successfully, and afterwards the OU tier is still in a fluctuating state, then I would think it would be a great opportunity to try out an Uber CAP. However, until we know CAP is back on track, we should stick to what we know we can do.

 

[ToastTyrant13]

As such, I would think that a regular OU CAP would be the best thing to do at this point. Even if the metagame is not as stable as we would like, and we don't learn as much as we have in the past, getting the project back on track should be priority number one, and since participation from the community is a huge part of CAP, doing one in the most popular tier is the best way to do it.

If we are able to do a normal OU CAP project successfully, and afterwards the OU tier is still in a fluctuating state, then I would think it would be a great opportunity to try out an Uber CAP. However, until we know CAP is back on track, we should stick to what we know we can do.

I completely agree with this point. A large part of CAP is participation, and trying to create and omega-powerhouse that's above the familiar and centralized OU would be chaotic and a bit of a hassle within the community.

 

[Imanalt]

I have never participated in CAP before and i am just now getting into it, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that an uber cap would be a poor idea, as by its nature, ubers is a banlist, not a tier, using a CAP to gain insight into a metagame that is not balanced seems like a bad idea.
However, doing a uu or lc CAP seems to me a great idea, as there is no earthly reason i can think of not to, other than participation, and the fact that other tier caps are rarely done migth help spark interest.

thats just my two cents :D

 

[tennisace]

As a counterpoint, Ubers is a banlist but also the "purest" form of Pokemon where everything is allowed. It has its own metagame because of the large number of banned Pokemon, as opposed to BL, which only has a handful of Pokemon.

 

[zarator]

While I agree with Theorymon that now is actually a great time in the development of the metagame for us to try out an Uber CAP, I believe that at this point, trying to get the CAP process and participation throughout the forum back to normal is the most important thing. As such, I would think that a regular OU CAP would be the best thing to do at this point. Even if the metagame is not as stable as we would like, and we don't learn as much as we have in the past, getting the project back on track should be priority number one, and since participation from the community is a huge part of CAP, doing one in the most popular tier is the best way to do it.

If we are able to do a normal OU CAP project successfully, and afterwards the OU tier is still in a fluctuating state, then I would think it would be a great opportunity to try out an Uber CAP. However, until we know CAP is back on track, we should stick to what we know we can do.

I have never participated in CAP before and i am just now getting into it, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that an uber cap would be a poor idea, as by its nature, ubers is a banlist, not a tier, using a CAP to gain insight into a metagame that is not balanced seems like a bad idea.
However, doing a uu or lc CAP seems to me a great idea, as there is no earthly reason i can think of not to, other than participation, and the fact that other tier caps are rarely done migth help spark interest.

thats just my two cents :D

"Ubers is just a banlist". I have seen this sentence thrown around a lot of times, and well... it just doesn't hold true anymore. 5 Gen Ubers is a finely balanced metagame, with or without Arceus. Heck, I would venture to say that Ubers is currently the most stable metagame in the 5th Generation. OU hasn't seen a banlist lasting for more than 2-3 months, UU is at the mercy of any fluctuation in usage OU experiments, and LC has a much smaller playerbase than Ubers (plus, if a player never tried neither Ubers nor LC and always sticked to OU, it's easier to get into Ubers than into LC). On the contrary, Ubers has been the same for over a year now, and it has reached a decent degree of stability - certainly, enough for us to discuss and analyze the meta without any fears for our considerations to be thrown off by an untimely ban.

 

[Imanalt]

"Ubers is just a banlist". I have seen this sentence thrown around a lot of times, and well... it just doesn't hold true anymore. 5 Gen Ubers is a finely balanced metagame, with or without Arceus. Heck, I would venture to say that Ubers is currently the most stable metagame in the 5th Generation. OU hasn't seen a banlist lasting for more than 2-3 months, UU is at the mercy of any fluctuation in usage OU experiments, and LC has a much smaller playerbase than Ubers (plus, if a player never tried neither Ubers nor LC and always sticked to OU, it's easier to get into Ubers than into LC). On the contrary, Ubers has been the same for over a year now, and it has reached a decent degree of stability - certainly, enough for us to discuss and analyze the meta without any fears for our considerations to be thrown off by an untimely ban.

Although ubers is stable, it is NOT balanced...

 

[Deck Knight]

Although ubers is stable, it is NOT balanced...

Define balanced.

All the Arceus types with full EV experimentation in general has led to an idea of counterability in the tier that wasn't really available in 5th Gen. Ubers is certainly a metagame with more powerful threats than OU, but these threats cut both offensively and defensively.

 

[jas61292]

"Ubers is just a banlist". I have seen this sentence thrown around a lot of times, and well... it just doesn't hold true anymore. 5 Gen Ubers is a finely balanced metagame, with or without Arceus. Heck, I would venture to say that Ubers is currently the most stable metagame in the 5th Generation. OU hasn't seen a banlist lasting for more than 2-3 months, UU is at the mercy of any fluctuation in usage OU experiments, and LC has a much smaller playerbase than Ubers (plus, if a player never tried neither Ubers nor LC and always sticked to OU, it's easier to get into Ubers than into LC). On the contrary, Ubers has been the same for over a year now, and it has reached a decent degree of stability - certainly, enough for us to discuss and analyze the meta without any fears for our considerations to be thrown off by an untimely ban.

Whether or not Ubers is a tier of banlist is a discussion for another time. However, I will agree that it has a metagame, and it very well may be the most stable, and I would agree that doing a CAP for it would make sense.

Yet I must say that I would still disagree that it would be a good idea to do one right now. I see that you quoted my post, but I don't really think much, if any of what you said really was in response to it. As I said there, I believe that we should do OU first for the sole reason that we know that people will like it, and get involved, bringing traffic back to the forum. As well as an Uber CAP might work in theory, if we cannot guarantee that people will be frequenting the forums, then we can't be sure it will work.

So once again I would reiterate my opinion: We should start with an OU CAP. It is the most popular metagame, and will bring in the most traffic. Only once we are sure that CAP is back up to speed should we look to other metagames, but at that point, an Ubers CAP would be a fantastic idea.

 

[Zystral]

I don't like the fact that we're naturally gravitating towards Ubers already. Because from Ubers there's not really much place to go.
I recall HD once submitted a CAP concept called "BRAKE STUPID METAGAME", where the idea of the CAP was to explore the limits and purposefully break the metagame, to see where the limit was: after all, there is a blurry line between "broken" and "not broken", and I recall a deep discussion on IRC where we agreed it would be a concept that would try to define that line a little better.
What I do like the idea of, is that if that CAP really did become inherently too strong, we could test it in Ubers, to see how it would fare.

CAPmons have naturally been extremely powerful, mainly because they are tailor-made as opposed to the "hey this is cool lets do this" attitude of GameFreak. Thus, if we make a CAP Uber, then it might even become the Uber of all Ubers.

What I like the idea of is a UU CAP; that way, we can see whether or not it performs well in UU, and we can then also gauge its potential in OU.
As well as this, UU has often shown itself to be a vastly different metagame from OU. And dare I say, a number of our unused concepts would show themselves to do well in UU as well as OU; if not better than we pulled them off.

However, my main point is this; something as critical as deciding the tier we should make the CAP is not a decision we take lightly. In fact, it influences the CAP more than the TL does. Thus, I suggest the CAP PRC decide through discussion and poll. A less pressing concern is the fact that we should focus on making a proper CAP and pulling ourselves out of hiatus first.

Smogon has always put "Smogon OU" as its main tier. While that has now been blurred with VGC, DW, and Clear Skies, we should still focus CAP on learning about the metagame of OU. While it would be helpful to learn more about UU or Ubers, I question the need or importance. I would put my money on the statement that making another OU CAP would be more beneficial than making an Uber/UU CAP.

That said I am entirely open to the idea should it go ahead, mainly because it will not only be interesting, but will yield some fun results.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I definitely want to see another OU CAP before we consider an Uber CAP. I think the process at large is mostly adequate for an Uber CAP by just taking the OU structure and applying it to a new tier. Once CAP is settled in standard operation again, I think we can consider an Uber CAP for the follow-up. I think it'd be a nice change of pace, it'd help include new people from the Uber community into CAP, and it'd serve to teach participants a lot about a new metagame, all of which are directly in-line with CAP's mission.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Yeah, pretty much done here. I don't think anyone would be heavily opposed to CAP2 being made for OU. There is a large interest in other tiers, primarily Ubers, so it looks like we'll be exploring that path in the future. If any good ideas that come up for implementing UU or something like that comes along, maybe we'll try that. I think we should discuss it more after CAP2 in what we'll do specifically (poll it out, maybe), but we've gotten some good input and ideas in this thread.

 

[zarator]

I don't like the fact that we're naturally gravitating towards Ubers already. Because from Ubers there's not really much place to go.
I recall HD once submitted a CAP concept called "BRAKE STUPID METAGAME", where the idea of the CAP was to explore the limits and purposefully break the metagame, to see where the limit was: after all, there is a blurry line between "broken" and "not broken", and I recall a deep discussion on IRC where we agreed it would be a concept that would try to define that line a little better.
What I do like the idea of, is that if that CAP really did become inherently too strong, we could test it in Ubers, to see how it would fare.

Just because something is broken in OU doesn't mean it has some kind of viability (if at all) in Ubers. We would not learn a lot about Ubers with such an experiment, although it could be certainly informative about OU.

CAPmons have naturally been extremely powerful, mainly because they are tailor-made as opposed to the "hey this is cool lets do this" attitude of GameFreak. Thus, if we make a CAP Uber, then it might even become the Uber of all Ubers.

You're too pessimist. If we enforce the (pretty stricts) limits Gamefreak follows when crafting Ubers (especially the cartridge ones) there's little to fear - heck, I'd say even less so than with an OU CAP.

What I like the idea of is a UU CAP; that way, we can see whether or not it performs well in UU, and we can then also gauge its potential in OU.
As well as this, UU has often shown itself to be a vastly different metagame from OU. And dare I say, a number of our unused concepts would show themselves to do well in UU as well as OU; if not better than we pulled them off.

What I don't like about UU (and one of the qualms I have with OU itself) is the lack of a stable banlist. We could end up making a CAP after two months, only to find that a particularly influential Pokémon has been introduced in or banned from the metagame. This is why I always opposed a CAP UU since 4th generation (despite how much time I played in that meta, to the point of getting voting rights once), and why I'm a bit skeptical about OU this time as well. What if we started CAP2 one month ago only to find Thundurus and Excadrill banned in the middle of the process (or maybe at the end, when it's too late to change anything)?

However, my main point is this; something as critical as deciding the tier we should make the CAP is not a decision we take lightly. In fact, it influences the CAP more than the TL does. Thus, I suggest the CAP PRC decide through discussion and poll. A less pressing concern is the fact that we should focus on making a proper CAP and pulling ourselves out of hiatus first.

Smogon has always put "Smogon OU" as its main tier. While that has now been blurred with VGC, DW, and Clear Skies, we should still focus CAP on learning about the metagame of OU. While it would be helpful to learn more about UU or Ubers, I question the need or importance. I would put my money on the statement that making another OU CAP would be more beneficial than making an Uber/UU CAP.

That said I am entirely open to the idea should it go ahead, mainly because it will not only be interesting, but will yield some fun results.

This I agree with.

The point, though, is that an Uber CAP has its definite merits - certainly more than an UU CAP. If I were you, I would not dismiss it so quickly.