Deoxys-S (Taunt+Recover)

[sammao]

Deoxys-S

[SET]
name: Versatile
move 1: Taunt
move 2: Recover
move 3: Ice punch/ Ice beam / Grass Knot /
move 4: Low Kick / Drain Punch / Thunderbolt
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly/ Timid
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe






Why this set deserves to be on-site:

• Deinosaur's Deoxy-S analysis did not mention this
• If Life Orb Aerodactyl is viable, why not this
• A lot faster than Aero, to anything under and include Scarf Landorus (101 Spd) and a hell lots of 100 speed at +1
• Fighting + Ice has good coverage, just as good as QuakeEdge of Aero
• A lot of other attacking options, choose the two attack moves that you think benefit you the most
• Similar bulk as Aero, and can Taunt+recover to stall weak attack from stall pokemon, also no SR weakness
• In short, it is a choice scarf revenge killer with the ability to swithch moves, a stall breaker, and even a late game cleaner.

Additional comments:

Ice Punch is used with Low Kick or Drain punch to have good coverage.

There are a lot of other attack options such as BoltBeam, fire Punch, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot and a phychic attack, feel free to swich around moves that fit you the most. But the core moves is Recover and Taunt and then two coverage moves that fit you the most. Use a timid nature and 252 SAtk ev when using special attacks.

The ev is changable but since you have to outspeed Scarf Landorus and the remaining ev is only 28, so it is max out to speed tie with oter Deoxy-S.

Edit: changes the name of the set from "Stall Breaker" to "Versatile" since people expect it to beat a lot of stall pokemon which it doesn't, instead it is a revenge killer, stall breaker and a late game cleaner all in one set and hence the name. Also, I slash more attack option in to give people an idea of its amount of options.

Edit 2: After more testing, I think Ice Punch>Ice beam when used with the fighting moves. I think some of you are right that mixing ev is not exactly good. Also testing + Atk/SAtk nature instead of +Spd since the speed maybe overkill and need the power

 

[November Blue]

This actually looks quite solid. I'll do some testing and report back later.

 

[Furai]

This really sounds like a good idea to me. However only 224 speed EVs are needed to outrun Scarf Landorus, and the rest could go to Attack or Special Attack. I will run calca later.

 

[sammao]

This really sounds like a good idea to me. However only 224 speed EVs are needed to outrun Scarf Landorus, and the rest could go to Attack or Special Attack. I will run calca later.

Thanks JT Swift and Furai, I know it has 28 evs remains, but I think you may as well max its speed to speed tie with other Deoxy-S, but if QC decides to put it in SAtk I can certainly do that.

 

[TelamonianAjax]

To be honest, I don't really see what stall this is breaking, besides Gliscor + Tyranitar sort of. Ok Gliscor gets OHKOed by 4 SpA Ice Beam. Fabulous. And it beats Tyranitar too. Unfortunately most people know that Deoxys-S tends to carry Superpower to beat Tyranitar, so most aren't switching it in until they know the set.

Blissey, on the other hand... 252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey: 43.7% - 51.54% 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
And as soon as you Taunt Blissey it's switching out anyway. Drain Punch is only a 3HKO, so it's not crippled in any way when it can come right back in later and heal up. Jellicent completely laughs at this, and couldn't care less if you Taunt it. It's going to burn you after a couple Scalds, and 4 SpA Ice beam is doing 9–11% before Leftovers recovery. Some bad. Quagsire is also going to burn you, and also takes practically nothing from these attacks. Reuniclus couldn't care less about an unSTAB, uninvested Ice Beam, especially if it has a CM under its belt when Deo-S comes in. Same with Latias.

And that is the biggest problem with this: it's not going to kill enough. It will not break stall, because it will not do enough damage once your opponent understands what the set is. Even against offense, it still will not do enough to anything that matters. Except Thundurus, which this 2HKOes (but is OHKOed after SR and a round of LO recoil), and Landorus, which this OHKOes. Terrakion is 2HKOed, but if you give it a turn of setup—and you need to, because no one is sending Terrakion into Deoxys-S—Deo-S is fucked. Conkeldurr doesn't care. Again, because most Deoxys-S carry a fighting move, Hydreigon isn't staying in. Haxorus takes 62% max while destroying in return. Latios takes even less, avoiding a 2HKO. Excadrill in the sand, Starmie, Gengar, and Gyarados don't care either. So you're left with Thundurus and Landorus who are actually stopped by this. Great, you've dedicated an entire Pokemon to revenge-killing a couple who don't require extremely specialized revenge killers anyway.

LO Aerodactyl gets great two-move coverage (with STAB on one of the moves) that runs off a single stat (so both moves get the attack investment), it can come in on Earthquakes directed at other team members, and has a higher base Attack. The only advantage this seems to have is the ability to take out Gliscor.

 

[Steamroll]

Most people who have Tyranitar out against Deoxys-s would switch out anyways. No one would keep T-Tar out on something that is guaranteed to be running Superpower. The only thing I can give this set is the possibility of surprising the opponent with Ice Beam when they try and set-up Gliscor or any Dragon.

Drain Punch is pretty much useless anyways on this set, Deoxys-s lacks the bulk to take hits and heal it off with Drain Punch. and I understand that Drain Punch is "supposed to heal off LO damage" but once you get Scizor apposing you you're fucked as it'll OHKO even if you don't switch out.

 

[sammao]

Thanks for the comments, however I will try to denfend my set:

To be honest, I don't really see what stall this is breaking, besides Gliscor + Tyranitar sort of. Ok Gliscor gets OHKOed by 4 SpA Ice Beam. Fabulous. And it beats Tyranitar too. Unfortunately most people know that Deoxys-S tends to carry Superpower to beat Tyranitar, so most aren't switching it in until they know the set.

Ok, so based on what you said it beat those two pokemon, right?

Blissey, on the other hand... 252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey: 43.7% - 51.54% 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
And as soon as you Taunt Blissey it's switching out anyway. Drain Punch is only a 3HKO, so it's not crippled in any way when it can come right back in later and heal up.

So again based on what you said it can defeat Blissey, right?

Jellicent completely laughs at this, and couldn't care less if you Taunt it. It's going to burn you after a couple Scalds, and 4 SpA Ice beam is doing 9–11% before Leftovers recovery. Some bad. Quagsire is also going to burn you, and also takes practically nothing from these attacks. Reuniclus couldn't care less about an unSTAB, uninvested Ice Beam, especially if it has a CM under its belt when Deo-S comes in. Same with Latias.

OK, I do agree the psychic and ghost type can be a problem when you run ice beam, but this is where Deoxy-S versatility comes into play, you can run Shadow Ball with the fighting move and have them cover, instead of Gliscor and Landorus. Or you can run ice beam + shadow Ball and stuggle against T-Tar and steel. Perhaps I should have make more slash and more explaination. Yes it cannot cover every threat, so as Aero. In fact, I think Aero have problem to deal with the pokemon you mentioned anyway since a +1 Latias Dragon Pulse does more than 100% and it is weak to water moves also.

And that is the biggest problem with this: it's not going to kill enough. It will not break stall, because it will not do enough damage once your opponent understands what the set is. Even against offense, it still will not do enough to anything that matters. Except Thundurus, which this 2HKOes (but is OHKOed after SR and a round of LO recoil), and Landorus, which this OHKOes.

Again, based on what you said it defeat the mentioned pokemon after SR, right?

Terrakion is 2HKOed, but if you give it a turn of setup—and you need to, because no one is sending Terrakion into Deoxys-S—Deo-S is fucked. Conkeldurr doesn't care. Again, because most Deoxys-S carry a fighting move, Hydreigon isn't staying in. Haxorus takes 62% max while destroying in return. Latios takes even less, avoiding a 2HKO. Excadrill in the sand, Starmie, Gengar, and Gyarados don't care either. So you're left with Thundurus and Landorus who are actually stopped by this. Great, you've dedicated an entire Pokemon to revenge-killing a couple who don't require extremely specialized revenge killers anyway.

Similar to the point I mentioned, Aero has no chance to defeat a lot of these threat you mentioned anyway. At least Deoxy-S can outspeed most of these and hit back first. And again if you need some of these threat cover you can always run a coverage move for them in exchange for some others.

LO Aerodactyl gets great two-move coverage (with STAB on one of the moves) that runs off a single stat (so both moves get the attack investment), it can come in on Earthquakes directed at other team members, and has a higher base Attack. The only advantage this seems to have is the ability to take out Gliscor.

You can certainly use a Jolly nature and run something like Ice punch+low kick, or you can run Timid nature and run BoltBeam. The fact that it outspeed a lot more pokemon and its movepool really differentiate it from Aero.

 

[sammao]

Most people who have Tyranitar out against Deoxys-s would switch out anyways. No one would keep T-Tar out on something that is guaranteed to be running Superpower. The only thing I can give this set is the possibility of surprising the opponent with Ice Beam when they try and set-up Gliscor or any Dragon.

Drain Punch is pretty much useless anyways on this set, Deoxys-s lacks the bulk to take hits and heal it off with Drain Punch. and I understand that Drain Punch is "supposed to heal off LO damage" but once you get Scizor apposing you you're fucked as it'll OHKO even if you don't switch out.

Again thanks for the comment, you do have your point on Drain punch, but I often times like the recovery when fight something Super effctive like Ferrothorn. If QC decide not to keep it I can remover it. For Scizor if it becomes a problem you always have the option to run fire punch and in exchange lose some coverage for others. Like what I said on previous thread, you cannot cover everything, so as Aero who don't even have much other attack options.

 

[wilson46]

Doesn't the Standard LO Deoxys set do most of what this set is supposed to accomplish?
In fact, I think it might do it better than this set.

Here, I'm going to quote all of the relevant parts of this set and address each one.

Deoxy-S

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

[*]Fighting + Ice has good coverage, just as good as QuakeEdge of Aero

First off, Ice and Fighting may be "okay" coverage, but why limit yourself to two moves when you can have four? One of which is a extremely powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost which comes off max Special Attack investment, which is another thing. You are investing 252 Attack evs to power up weak fighting moves like the Drain Punch and Low Kick listed to take down Tyranitar and Blissey. However, on the Life Orb set, Deoxys runs only 12 evs to OHKO max HP Tyranitar and deal a boatload of damage to Blissey, so max Atk evs are a waste imo. This, in turn, makes your Ice Beam really weak running off only 4 SpA evs and LO. I understand that this set uses Recover and Taunt, but how will this help in defeating stall when your attacking moves are so weak? The LO set already has great coverage and powerful moves as explained above, and this will probably hurt stall more.

[*]In short, it is a choice scarf revenge killer with the ability to swithch moves, a stall breaker, and even a late game cleaner.

Isn't this the LO set's job, especially since it is much stronger with the ability to switch around with four moves as opposed to two?

Additional comments:

Ice beam is chosen over Ice Punch since it hit Gliscor and Hippowdon harder, the fighting attack is for Tyranitar mainly so it cannot pursuit you and has good coverage along with Ice beam.

There are other attack options such as BoltBeam, fire Punch, Shadow Ball and a phychic attack can be use. But overall Fighting+Ice is the best option in terms of the 2 move coverages.

Other attack options that are all covered in just one Life Orb set...

Also agreeing with all of TelemonianAjax's post. I'm still unsure about this set's true effectiveness, but I'm leaning toward a rejection tbh.

Edit: Recover does seem interesting though.

 

[sammao]

Doesn't the Standard LO Deoxys set do most of what this set is supposed to accomplish?
In fact, I think it might do it better than this set.

Here, I'm going to quote all of the relevant parts of this set and address each one.



First off, Ice and Fighting may be "okay" coverage, but why limit yourself to two moves when you can have four? One of which is a extremely powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost which comes off max Special Attack investment, which is another thing. You are investing 252 Attack evs to power up weak fighting moves like the Drain Punch and Low Kick listed to take down Tyranitar and Blissey. However, on the Life Orb set, Deoxys runs only 12 evs to OHKO max HP Tyranitar and deal a boatload of damage to Blissey, so max Atk evs are a waste imo. This, in turn, makes your Ice Beam really weak running off only 4 SpA evs and LO. I understand that this set uses Recover and Taunt, but how will this help in defeating stall when your attacking moves are so weak? The LO set already has great coverage and powerful moves as explained above, and this will probably hurt stall more.




Isn't this the LO set's job, especially since it is much stronger with the ability to switch around with four moves as opposed to two?



Other attack options that are all covered in just one Life Orb set...

Also agreeing with all of TelemonianAjax's post. I'm still unsure about this set's true effectiveness, but I'm leaning toward a rejection tbh.

Edit: Recover does seem interesting though.

Thanks for the comments, but here is my points:

- From what I understand, your concerns is that this set is outclassed by the 4 Atk Life Orb set, which really doesn't since it has the ability to handle stall much easier.

-In comparison to the standard 4 attacks Life Orb set, it is much easier to handle stall and prevent set up pokemon thanks to Taunt. Taunt stop recovery moves and status moves that will cripples the 4 attacks Life Orb set. Yes, your coverage is limited, but in exchange you give some stall pokemon such as Blissey, Forrestress, Skarmory, Tantacruel, Hippowdon, Special Defensive Jirachi (and more) a much harder time.

-Taunt can also save you from set up monters such as Toxicroak, Scrafty, Breloom and Volcarona. Not that you can defeat them, but in emergency situation it can save you the match

-You do have your point about the ev, I can certainly change it to 12Atk / 244SAtk /252 Spd if all agree that is a better spread

-Also, tell me why Life Orb Aerodactyl get approved when this doesn't when Deoxy has more attack options, much higher speed, similar defense, and only slightly worse offense. This may not be a good point, but still.

 

[Chillarmy]

LO Aero is viable because of its very good offensive capability, typing and surprise factor; it's actually fairly common for one to underestimate Aerodactyl's overall damage output, as the suicide lead plays a completely different role (not factoring in the mindgames that come with team preview). This set is overall inferior to the LO + 4 attacks mixed set. I suppose that Taunt + Recover messes with stall, but most either have a Pokemon that can wall this set to hell and back or can easily wear Deoxys down or simply play around it. At that point however, wouldn't Aerodactyl be the better choice anyway, especially considering that he gets a substantial boost in his defensive capabilities under sand? Furthermore, when exactly will Deoxys even have the chance to use Recover? In most cases - predicted and forced switches - the damage recovered won't matter much unless you're facing a stall team that's without Toxic Spikes as well as a reliable method of dealing damage. Aerodactyl at least has the typing and ('ok') bulk under sandstorm (allowing it to function as a really good Heatran check) to pull off one or two useful Roosts. Deoxys will be taking far too much damage due to his Psychic typing and loss of bulk due to the attack / special attack EV split.

Also, it just seems like too much effort to Taunt something and switch when Deoxys could simply just KO its target with the corresponding attack. The lack of coverage, bluntly put, makes this set look ridiculously cluttered and very dependent on whether or not Deoxys is facing a team weak to its choice of coverage attacks, i.e bad. Just IMO, Drain Punch / Superpower should be in the last slot, because Blissey, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Magnezone, Doryuuzu, etc shouldn't be getting a free chance to switch in.

This post isn't completely ditching the set btw. I personally think that it has some potential (at least getting an OO mention) and will test it out later today.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hey there. I've co-written and updated the fourth generation Aerodactyl analysis (yes, that means I'm perfectly aware of how Orb Aerodactyl works, even tested today), so I'll watch where this goes.

Have you actually tested this out? By the looks of it, Deoxys-S doesn't hit quite hard enough to hit few notable threats when mixed, and even then, mixed honestly seems arbitrary. I know where you're going with this, too, but I think Deoxys-S works best with team support and decent coverage, much like Aerodactyl does. The slashitis here also delineate some kind of uncertainty with this set. I won't bother repeating Chillarmy either.

On your side of things, have you also considered Psyshock? Its coverage may be limited, but it allows you to score decent hits on Blissey, then Taunt it. Using Psyshosck also means you gain some decent coverage with another move (but this means you'll be walled by a specific threat) and can maximize Special Attack.

EDIT: Also, it's Deoxys-S.

 

[sammao]

Thanks for your comments, again here here is my point.

LO Aero is viable because of its very good offensive capability, typing and surprise factor; it's actually fairly common for one to underestimate Aerodactyl's overall damage output, as the suicide lead plays a completely different role (not factoring in the mindgames that come with team preview). .


This set is overall inferior to the LO + 4 attacks mixed set. I suppose that Taunt + Recover messes with stall, but most either have a Pokemon that can wall this set to hell and back or can easily wear Deoxys down or simply play around it. At that point however, wouldn't Aerodactyl be the better choice anyway, especially considering that he gets a substantial boost in his defensive capabilities under sand? Furthermore, when exactly will Deoxys even have the chance to use Recover? In most cases - predicted and forced switches - the damage recovered won't matter much unless you're facing a stall team that's without Toxic Spikes as well as a reliable method of dealing damage. Aerodactyl at least has the typing and ('ok') bulk under sandstorm (allowing it to function as a really good Heatran check) to pull off one or two useful Roosts. Deoxys will be taking far too much damage due to his Psychic typing and loss of bulk due to the attack / special attack EV split.

Also, it just seems like too much effort to Taunt something and switch when Deoxys could simply just KO its target with the corresponding attack. The lack of coverage, bluntly put, makes this set look ridiculously cluttered and very dependent on whether or not Deoxys is facing a team weak to its choice of coverage attacks, i.e bad. Just IMO, Drain Punch / Superpower should be in the last slot, because Blissey, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Magnezone, Doryuuzu, etc shouldn't be getting a free chance to switch in.

This post isn't completely ditching the set btw. I personally think that it has some potential (at least getting an OO mention) and will test it out later today.

-I do agree Aero hit harder, while its typing is better offensively, defensively it is worse if you think about it. Deoxys-S has a weakness to ghost and bug, which both are not as common, and its weakness to dark can be remedied by packing your fighting move. Aero, on the other hand, has weakness to water, electric, ice, steel and rock (which means SR), and I am sure all are very common and sandstorm boost won't save him much from that regard.

-Deoxys-S has to rely on switches and force switches to recover, but so is Aero. In fact, since Deoxys-S weakness is less and rarer it can actually has more chance to recover than Aero.

-If the Atk/SAtk Split is a concern, you can always just use attack from one side as I mentioned. There are combinations such as Ice punch + fighting, boltbeam, Psychic atk+ thnderbolt that does not need to split ev.

-You mention Deoxys-S could simply just KO its target with the corresponding attack with the 4 Atk set, but often time it is really not possible when facing stall. And Taunt+recover will allow you to beat them where the 4 Atk set cannot.

-I think you and some other people misunderstood my point, I never said this set can single handle the entire stall team, it needs support from teammates to defeat a few specific threats, just like Aero. In the meantime, it can outspeed a lot of fast pokemon from offense team.

 

[sammao]

Hey there. I've co-written and updated the fourth generation Aerodactyl analysis (yes, that means I'm perfectly aware of how Orb Aerodactyl works, even tested today), so I'll watch where this goes.

Have you actually tested this out? By the looks of it, Deoxys-S doesn't hit quite hard enough to hit few notable threats when mixed, and even then, mixed honestly seems arbitrary. I know where you're going with this, too, but I think Deoxys-S works best with team support and decent coverage, much like Aerodactyl does. The slashitis here also delineate some kind of uncertainty with this set. I won't bother repeating Chillarmy either.

On your side of things, have you also considered Psyshock? Its coverage may be limited, but it allows you to score decent hits on Blissey, then Taunt it. Using Psyshosck also means you gain some decent coverage with another move (but this means you'll be walled by a specific threat) and can maximize Special Attack.

EDIT: Also, it's Deoxys-S.

Thanks for the comment, but to your concerns, I have explained already, you don't have to always go mix since it has a lot of options. I do agree it hit less harder than Aero, but this does not necessarily stop it from being viable if you consider its other advantages. I slash the more Atk options because I want to show Deoxys-S is unpredictable. Of course I can remove some of them if QC wants

I have consider all of Psyshock, Psychic, and Zen Headbutt, I will mention them in AC. I can put it in the main slash if QC wants.

Thanks for the catch, it is indeed Deoxys-S

 

[wilson46]

-In comparison to the standard 4 attacks Life Orb set, it is much easier to handle stall and prevent set up pokemon thanks to Taunt. Taunt stop recovery moves and status moves that will cripples the 4 attacks Life Orb set. Yes, your coverage is limited, but in exchange you give some stall pokemon such as Blissey, Forrestress, Skarmory, Tantacruel, Hippowdon, Special Defensive Jirachi (and more) a much harder time.

You don't even need Taunt + Recover to beat those pokemon, and Jirachi beats Deoxys regardless of the set with Body Slam and Iron Head. The 4 Attack LO set however, can beat the rest of them quite handily. Blissey gets slammed hard by Superpower. Forretress dies from HP Fire and also can't switch into Deoxys' other specially based moves like Ice Beam or Thunderbolt without heavy SpDef investment. Same with Skarmory except Thunderbolt outright kills it. Tentacruel cannot switch into a Psycho Boost or Thunderbolt. Hippowdon cannot take a Psycho Boost or Ice Beam. I realize Deoxys' 4 Attack set is not the ultimate stall breaker, and in fact, it's not designed to defeat stall at all (rather an excellent revenge killer that threatens offensive teams). Anyway, I just think Taunt + Recover isn't as useful as you make it out to be, but if you can prove me wrong by playing and testing around with it on the ladder and showing logs of its effectiveness, then I might reconsider and approve it.

Also you say it works well against offensive teams, but that's what the 4 Attack LO set excels in doing with amazing type coverage and speed. Recover is fairly useless against offensive teams because they hit too hard, not giving you any time to heal, and not to mention two coverage moves can be easily played around.

 

[pie cream]

Thanks for the comments, but here is my points:



-In comparison to the standard 4 attacks Life Orb set, it is much easier to handle stall and prevent set up pokemon thanks to Taunt. Taunt stop recovery moves and status moves that will cripples the 4 attacks Life Orb set. Yes, your coverage is limited, but in exchange you give some stall pokemon such as Blissey, Forrestress, Skarmory, Tantacruel, Hippowdon, Special Defensive Jirachi (and more) a much harder time.

Why taunt them when you could 1 to 2HKO them?

-Taunt can also save you from set up monters such as Toxicroak, Scrafty, Breloom and Volcarona. Not that you can defeat them, but in emergency situation it can save you the match

WHy would you keep deoxys-S in against volcarona (more so hurt it)?

 

[Chillarmy]

-I do agree Aero hit harder, while its typing is better offensively, defensively it is worse if you think about it. Deoxys-S has a weakness to ghost and bug, which both are not as common, and its weakness to dark can be remedied by packing your fighting move. Aero, on the other hand, has weakness to water, electric, ice, steel and rock (which means SR), and I am sure all are very common and sandstorm boost won't save him much from that regard.

No matter what weaknesses or resistances differ between Deoxys and Aerodactyl, the point that I was trying to make remains the same: Deoxys has less chances to heal because it lacks the valuable typing that Aerodactyl has. If Aerodactyl Roosts, it can switch into Heatran, Fire-type attacks in general, U-turns and Earthquakes more comfortably (in the case of the latter, Aero might have to worry about being outpredicted, which is why I mentioned it). Deoxys on the other hand does not have many chances to switch into common threats, and is usually bombarded with powerful attacks that hit it for neutral damage. I mean, when was the last time that you've seen a Deoxys not take 50% from an attack without screens up?

Both Pokemon are frail; Aerodactyl just has more chances to switch in, attack something and heal.

-Deoxys-S has to rely on switches and force switches to recover, but so is Aero. In fact, since Deoxys-S weakness is less and rarer it can actually has more chance to recover than Aero.

No, really, when's the last time you've seen any player try to slowly wear Deoxys down rather than just checking it? No one wants for Deoxys to get up three layers of spikes, nor does anyone really want to keep Deoxys alive long enough that he can revenge their sweepers. Deoxys will more than likely be taking an asston of damage in one turn (or status) because he's a notable threat that has to be taken out before it can do its job. Recover or not - it's going to die fast.

-If the Atk/SAtk Split is a concern, you can always just use attack from one side as I mentioned. There are combinations such as Ice punch + fighting, boltbeam, Psychic atk+ thnderbolt that does not need to split ev.

But that leaves a ton of potential in Deoxys unused. Why should I even be conflicted with that choice? LO + 4 attacks Deoxys doesn't care about coverage, and can break stall on its own. Its low HP stat also makes wishpassing much more effective, which is a lot more reliable (imo, keep that in mind) than risking Deoxys's life with Taunt. Deoxys is capable of running an all-out-attacking set as well as two very good support sets. It's versatile enough that most walls will simply switch out to something that can take its assaults and act accordingly (switch to a spinner or just wall Deoxys). If Deoxys uses Taunt, then it's fairly obvious to any competent player that Deoxys lacks the coverage needed to take on entire teams; at that point, said player can simply scout Deoxys's moveset and act upon that.

In simpler terms, Deoxys's next move becomes much more telegraphed with the absence of efficient coverage - and once again, will be worn down easily due to having pretty bad defensive potential in this metagame.

-You mention Deoxys-S could simply just KO its target with the corresponding attack with the 4 Atk moves, but often time against stall it is really not possible when facing stall. And Taunt+recover will allow you to beat them where the 4 Atk set cannot.

Same goes for this set. It can't muscle past common defensive cores without making itself fodder for one of the Pokemon in said cores. Yeah, you can say "this Deoxys needs support", but the same can be said for Dunsparce and Stunfisk. You should know what I'm getting at by now. This set does everything the current LO set does, only worse because it's much more reliant on its teammates picking up the slack - let's keep in mind that switching a lot equates to losing a lot of momentum in the match, and no player wants that.

-I think you and some other people misunderstood my point, I never said this set can single handle the entire stall team, it needs support from teammates to defeat a few specific threats, just like Aero. In the meantime, it can outspeed a lot of fast pokemon from offense team.

The speed is a bit overkill, IMO. Landorus doesn't OHKO Aerodactyl with an unboosted Rock Slide and takes a huge chunk from an LO Stone Edge. This also means that Aerodactyl can lessen the prediction and simply Roost in order to scout Lando's next attack. Deoxys-S outpaces ScarfLando (ScarfTerk beats it), but that's it. The threats that don't lock themselves in on a pissweak attack are more important, and Aero outpaces all of them. Regarding the teammates thing... I addressed that earlier, so meh.

 

[tehy]

No matter what weaknesses or resistances differ between Deoxys and Aerodactyl, the point that I was trying to make remains the same: Deoxys has less chances to heal because it lacks the valuable typing that Aerodactyl has. If Aerodactyl Roosts, it can switch into Heatran, Fire-type attacks in general, U-turns and Earthquakes more comfortably (in the case of the latter, Aero might have to worry about being outpredicted, which is why I mentioned it). Deoxys on the other hand does not have many chances to switch into common threats, and is usually bombarded with powerful attacks that hit it for neutral damage. I mean, when was the last time that you've seen a Deoxys not take 50% from an attack without screens up?

Both Pokemon are frail; Aerodactyl just has more chances to switch in, attack something and heal.


No, really, when's the last time you've seen any player try to slowly wear Deoxys down rather than just checking it? No one wants for Deoxys to get up three layers of spikes, nor does anyone really want to keep Deoxys alive long enough that he can revenge their sweepers. Deoxys will more than likely be taking an asston of damage in one turn (or status) because he's a notable threat that has to be taken out before it can do its job. Recover or not - it's going to die fast.


But that leaves a ton of potential in Deoxys unused. Why should I even be conflicted with that choice? LO + 4 attacks Deoxys doesn't care about coverage, and can break stall on its own. Its low HP stat also makes wishpassing much more effective, which is a lot more reliable (imo, keep that in mind) than risking Deoxys's life with Taunt. Deoxys is capable of running an all-out-attacking set as well as two very good support sets. It's versatile enough that most walls will simply switch out to something that can take its assaults and act accordingly (switch to a spinner or just wall Deoxys). If Deoxys uses Taunt, then it's fairly obvious to any competent player that Deoxys lacks the coverage needed to take on entire teams; at that point, said player can simply scout Deoxys's moveset and act upon that.

In simpler terms, Deoxys's next move becomes much more telegraphed with the absence of efficient coverage - and once again, will be worn down easily due to having pretty bad defensive potential in this metagame.


Same goes for this set. It can't muscle past common defensive cores without making itself fodder for one of the Pokemon in said cores. Yeah, you can say "this Deoxys needs support", but the same can be said for Dunsparce and Stunfisk. You should know what I'm getting at by now. This set does everything the current LO set does, only worse because it's much more reliant on its teammates picking up the slack - let's keep in mind that switching a lot equates to losing a lot of momentum in the match, and no player wants that.


The speed is a bit overkill, IMO. Landorus doesn't OHKO Aerodactyl with an unboosted Rock Slide and takes a huge chunk from an LO Stone Edge. This also means that Aerodactyl can lessen the prediction and simply Roost in order to scout Lando's next attack. Deoxys-S outpaces ScarfLando (ScarfTerk beats it), but that's it. The threats that don't lock themselves in on a pissweak attack are more important, and Aero outpaces all of them. Regarding the teammates thing... I addressed that earlier, so meh.

I try to wear down instead of checking deoxys-s...

Of course, that's only so i can KO it with rapid spin and spin away all hazards, but a taunt/recover set would fuck me bad.
Although then i could just spam rapid spin anyhow.

 

[sammao]

You don't even need Taunt + Recover to beat those pokemon, and Jirachi beats Deoxys regardless of the set with Body Slam and Iron Head. The 4 Attack LO set however, can beat the rest of them quite handily. Blissey gets slammed hard by Superpower. Forretress dies from HP Fire and also can't switch into Deoxys' other specially based moves like Ice Beam or Thunderbolt without heavy SpDef investment. Same with Skarmory except Thunderbolt outright kills it. Tentacruel cannot switch into a Psycho Boost or Thunderbolt. Hippowdon cannot take a Psycho Boost or Ice Beam. I realize Deoxys' 4 Attack set is not the ultimate stall breaker, and in fact, it's not designed to defeat stall at all (rather an excellent revenge killer that threatens offensive teams). Anyway, I just think Taunt + Recover isn't as useful as you make it out to be, but if you can prove me wrong by playing and testing around with it on the ladder and showing logs of its effectiveness, then I might reconsider and approve it.

Also you say it works well against offensive teams, but that's what the 4 Attack LO set excels in doing with amazing type coverage and speed. Recover is fairly useless against offensive teams because they hit too hard, not giving you any time to heal, and not to mention two coverage moves can be easily played around.

You do have your point, but consider situation like the following:

Blissey:Both Deoxys-S comes in, Blissey hit it with Seismic toss or Softbroiled, not a status (which cripple both set). Now Blissey softbroiled as you hit it with Superpower, your attack doing less and less and it status you. On the other hand my Deoxy-S taunt it and shut it down completely and recover off Seismic toss

Forretress: HP fire is not listed as an main option on the 4 Atk analysis, and thunderbolt does 41% - 48.3% to a 252hp/80Sdef Forretress. So if you come in and try to thunderbolt it, it will set up 2 more layers before you kill it. Meanwhile I can taunt it and recover stall Gyro ball thanks to Pressure (it only has 4 hit even it does 67.2% - 79.7%)

You are true about Skarmory, Tentacruel and Hippowdon.

But after I saw your reply I also ask myself the following questions: What can counter/give trouble to the 4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S? And I have the following:

Dusclops: I can certainly Taunt and shut it down

Bronzong: I can recover stall out Gyro ball like Forrestress

Latias: Well, I cannot beat this, but as least I am not a calm mind set up Bait on her thanks to Taunt

Porygon2: Superpower does less than 50% and only getting weaker, while I can taunt stall it like Dusclops since thunderbolt does 37.3% - 44.4%

Jellicent: I am not sure how much a life Orb thunderbolt does to it since I don't know any damage calculator for new pokemon. But my guess is Life Orb thunderbolt fail to 2HKO, while my set can taunt and beat it similar to Porygon2, as long as I am using boltbeam.

Reuniclus: The standard calm mind set don't carry shadow ball and I resist both Focus Blast and Psychic, but if you lack taunt it uses you as set up bait instead. My set can taunt it, prevent it to set up and recover, and I defeat it slowly.

Sigilyph: After a cosmic power, the 4 Atk set fail to stop it, while my set can shut it down.

Wobbuffet: it revenge the 4 Atk set, while I can taunt and shut it down.

Deoxys-D: Taunt+Recover shut this down also

Wilson 46, I would find log to pursue you the set, please give me at least a week before you decide to reject this. I also appreciate if you try this on your own and get surprised by it, thanks!

 

[sammao]

No matter what weaknesses or resistances differ between Deoxys and Aerodactyl, the point that I was trying to make remains the same: Deoxys has less chances to heal because it lacks the valuable typing that Aerodactyl has. If Aerodactyl Roosts, it can switch into Heatran, Fire-type attacks in general, U-turns and Earthquakes more comfortably (in the case of the latter, Aero might have to worry about being outpredicted, which is why I mentioned it). Deoxys on the other hand does not have many chances to switch into common threats, and is usually bombarded with powerful attacks that hit it for neutral damage. I mean, when was the last time that you've seen a Deoxys not take 50% from an attack without screens up?

Both Pokemon are frail; Aerodactyl just has more chances to switch in, attack something and heal.


No, really, when's the last time you've seen any player try to slowly wear Deoxys down rather than just checking it? No one wants for Deoxys to get up three layers of spikes, nor does anyone really want to keep Deoxys alive long enough that he can revenge their sweepers. Deoxys will more than likely be taking an asston of damage in one turn (or status) because he's a notable threat that has to be taken out before it can do its job. Recover or not - it's going to die fast.


But that leaves a ton of potential in Deoxys unused. Why should I even be conflicted with that choice? LO + 4 attacks Deoxys doesn't care about coverage, and can break stall on its own. Its low HP stat also makes wishpassing much more effective, which is a lot more reliable (imo, keep that in mind) than risking Deoxys's life with Taunt. Deoxys is capable of running an all-out-attacking set as well as two very good support sets. It's versatile enough that most walls will simply switch out to something that can take its assaults and act accordingly (switch to a spinner or just wall Deoxys). If Deoxys uses Taunt, then it's fairly obvious to any competent player that Deoxys lacks the coverage needed to take on entire teams; at that point, said player can simply scout Deoxys's moveset and act upon that.

In simpler terms, Deoxys's next move becomes much more telegraphed with the absence of efficient coverage - and once again, will be worn down easily due to having pretty bad defensive potential in this metagame.


Same goes for this set. It can't muscle past common defensive cores without making itself fodder for one of the Pokemon in said cores. Yeah, you can say "this Deoxys needs support", but the same can be said for Dunsparce and Stunfisk. You should know what I'm getting at by now. This set does everything the current LO set does, only worse because it's much more reliant on its teammates picking up the slack - let's keep in mind that switching a lot equates to losing a lot of momentum in the match, and no player wants that.


The speed is a bit overkill, IMO. Landorus doesn't OHKO Aerodactyl with an unboosted Rock Slide and takes a huge chunk from an LO Stone Edge. This also means that Aerodactyl can lessen the prediction and simply Roost in order to scout Lando's next attack. Deoxys-S outpaces ScarfLando (ScarfTerk beats it), but that's it. The threats that don't lock themselves in on a pissweak attack are more important, and Aero outpaces all of them. Regarding the teammates thing... I addressed that earlier, so meh.

You stress quite a lot on the typing, sure, you can switch into heatran. But I can switch into stuff like calm mind Reuniclus lack shadow ball, Brozong and Forrestress who I can recover PP stall Gyro ball, Jellicent as long as I use boltbeam, defensive Politoad and Gliscor. Due to Aero weakness, you may have trouble to take on these. And besides Heatran, you have not mention much else Aero can swithch into. All Earthquake user will have a move that hit flying type. At least Choice fighting attack (which I can swithch into) is more common than choice EQ due to air balloon.

About the arguement between the 4 Atk LO set and this set, see the post I just replied Wilson 46.

Now come to think about it, you do have your point that Deoxys-S Speed stat is somewhat overkill, so I am going to test a Atk/SAtk boosting nature like modest and Adamant. That way, it will be faster, has more attack stat, similar defense, and more move options than Aero. Not sure on this yet since I really need to test it, it will be great if you can do it together too, thanks!

 

[pie cream]

You do have your point, but consider situation like the following:

Blissey:Both Deoxys-S comes in, Blissey hit it with Seismic toss, not a status (which cripple both set). Now Blissey softbroiled as you hit it with Superpower, your attack doing less and less and it status you. On the other hand my Deoxy-S taunt it and shut it down completely and recover off Seismic toss

Forretress: HP fire is not listed as an main option on the 4 Atk analysis, and thunderbolt does 41% - 48.3% to a 252hp/80Sdef Forretress. So if you come in and try to thunderbolt it, it will set up 2 more layers before you kill it. Meanwhile I can taunt it and recover stall Gyro ball thanks to Pressure (it only has 4 hit even it does 67.2% - 79.7%)

You are true about Skarmory, Tentacruel and Hippowdon.

But after I saw your reply I also ask myself the following questions: What can counter/give trouble to the 4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S? And I have the following:

Dusclops: I can certainly Taunt and shut it down
(What are you doing back to it?)

Bronzong: I can recover stall out Gyro ball like Forrestress
( Again what are you doing back? And two gyro balls ko deo (even if you recover))

Latias: Well, I cannot beat this, but as least I am not a calm mind set up Bait on her thanks to Taunt
(ok,but not all latias's ar cam mind...)

Porygon2: Superpower does less than 50% and only getting weaker, while I can taunt stall it like Dusclops since thunderbolt does 37.3% - 44.4%
(ok)

Jellicent: I am not sure how much a life Orb thunderbolt does to it since I don't know any damage calculator for new pokemon. But my guess is Life Orb thunderbolt fail to 2HKO, while my set can taunt and beat it similar to Porygon2, as long as I am using boltbeam.
(ok)
Reuniclus: The standard calm mind set don't carry shadow ball and I resist both Focus Blast and Psychic, but if you lack taunt it uses you as set up bait instead. My set can taunt it, prevent it to set up and recover, and I defeat it slowly.
( you 5-6HKO from icebeam / thunder bolt while reniclus needs thre hits to KO you and don't froget the Sp.def drop chance.)

Sigilyph: After a cosmic power, the 4 Atk set fail to stop it, while my set can shut it down.
(Why would they stay in after you taunted them?)

Wobbuffet: it revenge the 4 Atk set, while I can taunt and shut it down.
(As they mirrcoat / counter your attacks back more more damage then your doing.)

AS you can see you shut them down but some of them but you don't do good damage to them or you don't kill them before they do.

 

[sammao]

Thanks for the comments, but here is my points:



-In comparison to the standard 4 attacks Life Orb set, it is much easier to handle stall and prevent set up pokemon thanks to Taunt. Taunt stop recovery moves and status moves that will cripples the 4 attacks Life Orb set. Yes, your coverage is limited, but in exchange you give some stall pokemon such as Blissey, Forrestress, Skarmory, Tantacruel, Hippowdon, Special Defensive Jirachi (and more) a much harder time.

Why taunt them when you could 1 to 2HKO them?

-Taunt can also save you from set up monters such as Toxicroak, Scrafty, Breloom and Volcarona. Not that you can defeat them, but in emergency situation it can save you the match

WHy would you keep deoxys-S in against volcarona (more so hurt it)?

Please see the post I replied Wilson46, thanks. Also I never said it beat Volcarona, I just mean that it can taunt it and stop is set up by scarifice yourself and stop a sweep


Edit: Sorry please disregard this post

 

[sammao]

You do have your point, but consider situation like the following:

Blissey:Both Deoxys-S comes in, Blissey hit it with Seismic toss, not a status (which cripple both set). Now Blissey softbroiled as you hit it with Superpower, your attack doing less and less and it status you. On the other hand my Deoxy-S taunt it and shut it down completely and recover off Seismic toss

Forretress: HP fire is not listed as an main option on the 4 Atk analysis, and thunderbolt does 41% - 48.3% to a 252hp/80Sdef Forretress. So if you come in and try to thunderbolt it, it will set up 2 more layers before you kill it. Meanwhile I can taunt it and recover stall Gyro ball thanks to Pressure (it only has 4 hit even it does 67.2% - 79.7%)

You are true about Skarmory, Tentacruel and Hippowdon.

But after I saw your reply I also ask myself the following questions: What can counter/give trouble to the 4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S? And I have the following:

Dusclops: I can certainly Taunt and shut it down
(What are you doing back to it?) Hit it with moves, the like of Ice beam, Ice punch and thunderbolt will eventually give it a status, also it lack leftovers.

Bronzong: I can recover stall out Gyro ball like Forrestress
( Again what are you doing back? And two gyro balls ko deo (even if you recover)) Ok, ignore what I said about Bronzong

Latias: Well, I cannot beat this, but as least I am not a calm mind set up Bait on her thanks to Taunt
(ok,but not all latias's ar cam mind...) Well my point here is the 4 Atk set risk being set up on

Porygon2: Superpower does less than 50% and only getting weaker, while I can taunt stall it like Dusclops since thunderbolt does 37.3% - 44.4%
(ok)

Jellicent: I am not sure how much a life Orb thunderbolt does to it since I don't know any damage calculator for new pokemon. But my guess is Life Orb thunderbolt fail to 2HKO, while my set can taunt and beat it similar to Porygon2, as long as I am using boltbeam.
(ok)

Reuniclus: The standard calm mind set don't carry shadow ball and I resist both Focus Blast and Psychic, but if you lack taunt it uses you as set up bait instead. My set can taunt it, prevent it to set up and recover, and I defeat it slowly.
( you 5-6HKO from icebeam / thunder bolt while reniclus needs thre hits to KO you and don't froget the Sp.def drop chance.) Well, you also have chance to hax, again you can defeat it even though it is a slow process. If a Sp.Def drop does happen, you can switch since a taunted Reuniclus is not hard to stop

Sigilyph: After a cosmic power, the 4 Atk set fail to stop it, while my set can shut it down.
(Why would they stay in after you taunted them?) Similar to my point to Blissey, you defeat it while the 4 Atk set fail to do so.

Wobbuffet: it revenge the 4 Atk set, while I can taunt and shut it down.
(As they mirrcoat / counter your attacks back more more damage then your doing.) I thought Taunt stop Mirror Coats and Counter, I guess I was wrong, ignore this.

AS you can see you shut them down but some of them but you don't do good damage to them or you don't kill them before they do.

 

[pie cream]

dusclops:4spa naive ice beam / thunderbolt vs 252Hp / 176 calm eviolite dusclops=8.8%-10.21% 9-10HKO good luck with that

reuniclus: reuniclus has magic guard plus paralysis isn't going to hurt reuniclus that much since it's slow anyway.

sigilyph:you don't defeat it because they swich out plus 4atk deo deos more damage with thunderbolt then your set does since it has more Spa evs.

Plus most stall teams have toxic spikes on thier team so that wears deo down with lif orb too.

 

[deinosaur]

Look, this set doesn't really break stall. Tentacruel doesn't take much from even thunderbolt, and can rapid spin through taunt. Also, it doesn't have the strength to break most pokemon. also, regardless of the set, the pokemon you "break", don't actually stick around to take a hit, i.e. gliscor, ttar.