Cryogonal (OU Rapid Spin) [QC 0/3]

[Knight of Cydonia]

Idk, are you? Ice IS an awful defensive type. If not, give me a good reason why the highest-tiered defensive Ice-type is, guess what, in NU. (Froslass is support, not a wall. Not a tank.)

You don't understand, I was commenting on sir saying that it had no reliable recovery and that ice supposedly resists grass, and from his usual posts on other threads he seems quite experienced. I know ice is one of the worst, if not the worst defensive typing.

 

[Chillarmy]

Ice is worse defensive typing than Fire js

Btw, I agree that Sub and / or Reflect deserves a slash with Toxic. If Cryogonal is being used as a spinner for a more offensively inclined team, then it would be much better to delegate the task of weakening Jellicent (because that's the only common spinblocker that this set beats with Toxic) to another Pokemon -- Victini springs to mind here, as he can just plow through Jellicent, without the need of Sun. If Cyrogonal is to be used on stall, then Toxic Spikes are likely to be present alongside it; Toxic Spikes will make mincemeat of Jellicent and actually force something else to switch in when Cyrogonal does. Cyrogonal getting wrecked through both of its holes (errrrrrr...) by any Pursuit user (Not being able to touch Weavile is kinda lol) makes this set very unappealling, Stealth Rock weakness be damned.

 

[RUisSerperior]

Yay, a bunch of people playing theorymon, "pursuit will kill it!". Well who said it is cryo vs scizor and ttar? Prediction and team support is key to any pokemon. I can sit here and say that ttar sucks because conkeldurr spits in its face and easily OHKOes it, but that is just me playing theorymon and pitting ttar against pokes that a smart player would always try to avoid. Who says cryo inevitably will face these pursuiters or counters? Nobody allows their ttar to go against a fighting type do they? So why wouldn't somebody using cryo do the same and use it only when the situation and opportunity arises?
Obviously it has very valid flaws, but there is too much theorymon going on here, and all these duplicate posts saying "pursuit kills it!", that is getting this discussion nowhere, it is already an established point.
Lets all get out there and test this guy if you really want to help, but if you are just gonna restate previous facts, then you have no purpose in a proposed set discussion!

 

[Chillarmy]

For something that needs to stay in for a turn in order to do its only jobs, being placed in a checkmate position by OU's top contenders after one turn is a pretty big fucking deal. There's a huge difference between theorymon and common sense; if Cryogonal doesn't stay in, it can't use a single move -- and one free turn is all it takes for Cryogonal to get melted by Pursuit.

 

[alexwolf]

Yay, a bunch of people playing theorymon, "pursuit will kill it!". Well who said it is cryo vs scizor and ttar? Prediction and team support is key to any pokemon. I can sit here and say that ttar sucks because conkeldurr spits in its face and easily OHKOes it, but that is just me playing theorymon and pitting ttar against pokes that a smart player would always try to avoid. Who says cryo inevitably will face these pursuiters or counters? Nobody allows their ttar to go against a fighting type do they? So why wouldn't somebody using cryo do the same and use it only when the situation and opportunity arises?
Obviously it has very valid flaws, but there is too much theorymon going on here, and all these duplicate posts saying "pursuit kills it!", that is getting this discussion nowhere, it is already an established point.
Lets all get out there and test this guy if you really want to help, but if you are just gonna restate previous facts, then you have no purpose in a proposed set discussion!

You high or something? If Cryogonal wants to spin, he will die if your opponent has Band Scizor or Tyranitar in his team. Because they can switch in without caring about everything you do, and Pursuit you to death. If you don't want to get trapped you have to not spin, or run Reflect.

 

[The Truth]

Yay, a bunch of people playing theorymon, "pursuit will kill it!". Well who said it is cryo vs scizor and ttar? Prediction and team support is key to any pokemon. I can sit here and say that ttar sucks because conkeldurr spits in its face and easily OHKOes it, but that is just me playing theorymon and pitting ttar against pokes that a smart player would always try to avoid. Who says cryo inevitably will face these pursuiters or counters? Nobody allows their ttar to go against a fighting type do they? So why wouldn't somebody using cryo do the same and use it only when the situation and opportunity arises?
Obviously it has very valid flaws, but there is too much theorymon going on here, and all these duplicate posts saying "pursuit kills it!", that is getting this discussion nowhere, it is already an established point.
Lets all get out there and test this guy if you really want to help, but if you are just gonna restate previous facts, then you have no purpose in a proposed set discussion!

If people were discussing things like CB Metagross, you could write it off as "theorymon", but the fact that Scizor and Tyranitar are ranked at #1 and #5 in usage right now, combined with the fact that Cryogonal needs a turn to spin, effectively means that it's dead as soon as it comes in against the vast majority of teams. It doesn't even have moveslot options to counter these threats. combine that with the rocks weakness and you have a non-viable pokemon.

 

[RUisSerperior]

who says that they are going to be alive? i know it is a valid point that they can kill him, but you dont base a pokemon's validity on the fact that those 2 things can kill it, not everybody packs a ttar or a scizor, they are used a lot, but it doesnt mean they are always going to be there to ruin your cryo. are we saying that this cryo is going to be the only team member or something? cryo vs the other team? because thats exactly how we are playing it. im pretty sure i could manage to viably make scizor look invalid if i put him against all of these 1 v 1 situations. "scizor has to stay in to do any attacks, he goes for a bullet punch, out comes the opposing heatran that now burns him or gets free damage on the switch. bam scizor is totally garbage because it cant beat a heatran, which we all know everybody has, and they are always alive when your scizor comes out too."
and @ chillarmy, of course it is a big deal, but you all are so far just repeating what the first person to point out the pursuit weakness said. where is that getting this set discussion? nowhere. pursuit is a problem, but not every ttar or scizor runs pursuit fyi their usage stats do not show the set that is being used, only the fact that the pokemon is being used. we cannot sit around and play theorymon, saying any pokemon is garbage because 2 pokemon with pursuit ruin its day is trollish and narrow-sighted, that argument, 1. relies on said pokemon to be in play, what if you go against a team without ttar or scizor? and 2. implies a situation in which neither of the said pokemon are damaged or even killed by the other members of your team.
discussing the viability of a set requires the use of mind, not just sheeping what one guy said. the whole picture needs to be taken into account, and you all need to look past this very narrow-sighted situation you have put this cryo into, it isnt always going to happen, and with good play and proper team support, whose to say that ttar and scizor are always going to be alive to pursuit anyways? the pursuit argument is like saying blissey sucks because she cant take a physical hit, and thus she sucks.
Pokemon are played to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
Also something to consider, if cryo still gets a rapid spin off while dying to ttar or scizor, hasnt it still done its job? it has eliminated hazards and allows a free switch into a check. it still serves its purpose before dying, which is what every pokemon is supposed to do, perform its duty before death.
I restate again, i am not saying that cryo is perfect or that the pursuit argument is invalid, i am simply stating that this set discussion has turned into a worthless bashing of the set, with nothing but damage calcs and their own words to back it up. damage calcs are fine and all, but it doesnt mean much it the situation never presents itself for those calcs to come in.
Again, if you seriously want to help or disprove this set, put away the damage calculator and go make a team that utilizes it, experiment with it in different ways, and see what happens. or else this thread might as well be locked.

and @ alexwolf, no reason to attack me just because i properly explained your lapse in reasoning and ability to properly contribute to a set discussion. dont get offended and defensive because i am being confrontational, its a good skill to have. "You high or something?" that just makes me lawlz, the maturity on this website is just amazing sometimes

 

[CommanderTow]

I don't see how he could be a could OU Rapid Spinner seeing as he's Ice type and all, which hinders him greatly for what you want him to do.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

who says that they are going to be alive? i know it is a valid point that they can kill him, but you dont base a pokemon's validity on the fact that those 2 things can kill it, not everybody packs a ttar or a scizor, they are used a lot, but it doesnt mean they are always going to be there to ruin your cryo. are we saying that this cryo is going to be the only team member or something? cryo vs the other team? because thats exactly how we are playing it. im pretty sure i could manage to viably make scizor look invalid if i put him against all of these 1 v 1 situations. "scizor has to stay in to do any attacks, he goes for a bullet punch, out comes the opposing heatran that now burns him or gets free damage on the switch. bam scizor is totally garbage because it cant beat a heatran, which we all know everybody has, and they are always alive when your scizor comes out too."
and @ chillarmy, of course it is a big deal, but you all are so far just repeating what the first person to point out the pursuit weakness said. where is that getting this set discussion? nowhere. pursuit is a problem, but not every ttar or scizor runs pursuit fyi their usage stats do not show the set that is being used, only the fact that the pokemon is being used. we cannot sit around and play theorymon, saying any pokemon is garbage because 2 pokemon with pursuit ruin its day is trollish and narrow-sighted, that argument, 1. relies on said pokemon to be in play, what if you go against a team without ttar or scizor? and 2. implies a situation in which neither of the said pokemon are damaged or even killed by the other members of your team.
discussing the viability of a set requires the use of mind, not just sheeping what one guy said. the whole picture needs to be taken into account, and you all need to look past this very narrow-sighted situation you have put this cryo into, it isnt always going to happen, and with good play and proper team support, whose to say that ttar and scizor are always going to be alive to pursuit anyways? the pursuit argument is like saying blissey sucks because she cant take a physical hit, and thus she sucks.
Pokemon are played to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
Also something to consider, if cryo still gets a rapid spin off while dying to ttar or scizor, hasnt it still done its job? it has eliminated hazards and allows a free switch into a check. it still serves its purpose before dying, which is what every pokemon is supposed to do, perform its duty before death.
I restate again, i am not saying that cryo is perfect or that the pursuit argument is invalid, i am simply stating that this set discussion has turned into a worthless bashing of the set, with nothing but damage calcs and their own words to back it up. damage calcs are fine and all, but it doesnt mean much it the situation never presents itself for those calcs to come in.
Again, if you seriously want to help or disprove this set, put away the damage calculator and go make a team that utilizes it, experiment with it in different ways, and see what happens. or else this thread might as well be locked.

and @ alexwolf, no reason to attack me just because i properly explained your lapse in reasoning and ability to properly contribute to a set discussion. dont get offended and defensive because i am being confrontational, its a good skill to have. "You high or something?" that just makes me lawlz, the maturity on this website is just amazing sometimes

Yes, you are supposed to play a Pokemon to its strengths, but in the case of Cryogonal, the cons significantly outweigh the pros, especially when you consider that it's outclassed by the likes of Starmie, Forretress, and Tentacruel. It's very difficult to play this Pokemon to its strengths when it doesn't really have any true strengths. Massive Special Defense, sure. You know what else has good Special Defense? Tentacruel, who also has a significantly better typing. Starmie is considerably better offensively, and Forretress can set up hazards. It gets even worse when you realize that Cryogonal has worse physical bulk than Zoroark.

Overall, Cryogonal is outclassed by every OU spinner, basically, and you could even argue that it's outclassed by Hitmontop.

 

[Chillarmy]

Never said that Cyrogonal is garbage. I was supporting Reflect, Substitute, or any move that buffs Cyro's survivability being an overall great option to use in the fourth slot. Also, stop tossing around the term "theorymon" when you don't even have a grasp of what it means. Theorymon would be more like, "Cryogonal is bad because if the player using it predicts wrong, then Cyrogonal becomes setup fodder for all of OU". The whole "Pursuit beats Cryogonal" argument adds onto Cyrogonal's other bad traits, such as it vulnerability to many common moves, generally poor synergy with many teams, and the rather lopsided competition it faces with other spinners. I don't see how testing it would really make much of a difference, especially considering that Tentacruel and Starmie can fulfill a similar role, if not outclass Cyrogonal entirely.

 

[alexwolf]

who says that they are going to be alive? i know it is a valid point that they can kill him, but you dont base a pokemon's validity on the fact that those 2 things can kill it, not everybody packs a ttar or a scizor, they are used a lot, but it doesnt mean they are always going to be there to ruin your cryo. are we saying that this cryo is going to be the only team member or something? cryo vs the other team? because thats exactly how we are playing it. im pretty sure i could manage to viably make scizor look invalid if i put him against all of these 1 v 1 situations. "scizor has to stay in to do any attacks, he goes for a bullet punch, out comes the opposing heatran that now burns him or gets free damage on the switch. bam scizor is totally garbage because it cant beat a heatran, which we all know everybody has, and they are always alive when your scizor comes out too."
and @ chillarmy, of course it is a big deal, but you all are so far just repeating what the first person to point out the pursuit weakness said. where is that getting this set discussion? nowhere. pursuit is a problem, but not every ttar or scizor runs pursuit fyi their usage stats do not show the set that is being used, only the fact that the pokemon is being used. we cannot sit around and play theorymon, saying any pokemon is garbage because 2 pokemon with pursuit ruin its day is trollish and narrow-sighted, that argument, 1. relies on said pokemon to be in play, what if you go against a team without ttar or scizor? and 2. implies a situation in which neither of the said pokemon are damaged or even killed by the other members of your team.
discussing the viability of a set requires the use of mind, not just sheeping what one guy said. the whole picture needs to be taken into account, and you all need to look past this very narrow-sighted situation you have put this cryo into, it isnt always going to happen, and with good play and proper team support, whose to say that ttar and scizor are always going to be alive to pursuit anyways? the pursuit argument is like saying blissey sucks because she cant take a physical hit, and thus she sucks.
Pokemon are played to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
Also something to consider, if cryo still gets a rapid spin off while dying to ttar or scizor, hasnt it still done its job? it has eliminated hazards and allows a free switch into a check. it still serves its purpose before dying, which is what every pokemon is supposed to do, perform its duty before death.
I restate again, i am not saying that cryo is perfect or that the pursuit argument is invalid, i am simply stating that this set discussion has turned into a worthless bashing of the set, with nothing but damage calcs and their own words to back it up. damage calcs are fine and all, but it doesnt mean much it the situation never presents itself for those calcs to come in.
Again, if you seriously want to help or disprove this set, put away the damage calculator and go make a team that utilizes it, experiment with it in different ways, and see what happens. or else this thread might as well be locked.

and @ alexwolf, no reason to attack me just because i properly explained your lapse in reasoning and ability to properly contribute to a set discussion. dont get offended and defensive because i am being confrontational, its a good skill to have. "You high or something?" that just makes me lawlz, the maturity on this website is just amazing sometimes

I wasn't offended at all. ''Are you high'' is a phrase commonly used to someone when he talks nonsense.

The difference in all your examples and Cryogonal, is that all the other pokes can switch out or at least damage the opposition. If you bring Heatran or Jellicent to wall Scizor i can just switch out and save Scizor for later. Celebi and Lati@s may be Ttar weak, but they all have means of getting out unharmed or kill it, AND they have the moveslots to spare unlike Cryogonal.

Stop playing the open minded in here, none is theorymoning, the facts are so absolute it hurts. Scizor and Ttar destroy you and this is a fact. If you want to spin while they are alive, you die, simply as that. And they are used in almost half of the teams. Add the fact that Cryogonal is SR weak while being a spinner, and the fact that he has very few switch in oportunities, and you start realizing the ugly truth.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I don't see why we need to test this god awful Pokemon when there's significant evidence that it's not viable in OU, with the advantage of..... Good Special Defense? Oh awesome, I totally needed a spinner with good Special Defense when I can use Tentacruel, who can set up Toxic Spikes and do something other than spin!

When it comes to spinners below OU, Hitmontop at least has a niche in the form of Foresight. Cryogonal just seems to be doing something that another Pokemon can do better.

Starmie can also attract Pursuit, but unlike Cryogonal, it can touch both common Pursuiters, Scizor and Tyranitar. Cryogonal can't even touch Weavile, which is kinda sad.

Forretress can't really touch the spinblockers, but that's the reason you run a Pursuit user like CB/CS T-tar when you use Forry. It's so much easier to deal with Forretress's flaws than it is to deal with Cryogonal's, and even when you do deal with Cryogonal's flaws, it is just so outclassed that you basically wasted your time.

Cryogonal does have good Special Defense, I'll give you that one. However, Ice is still a bad defensive typing, and Cryogonal's HP stat is relatively low, so that combined with the fact that Cryogonal is weak to Stealth Rock limits Cryogonal's ability to take special hits.

In a nutshell, you just end up with a bad Pokemon with no appealing aspects in OU whatsoever. Find me two things Cryogonal can do in OU that another Pokemon cannot do better.

 

[Arcticblast]

Actually, Cryogonal does have one thing other OU spinners don't - Levitate. Cryogonal is one of the few users of Rapid Spin that is immune to (Toxic) Spikes. Starmie can Recover off the damage from hazards, but Forretress, Tentacruel, Cloyster, Hitmontop and Donphan are all threatened by hazards themselves. The latter three are even worse off, being weak to Toxic Spikes. Cryogonal avoids them and, if enemy users of priority or Pursuit are gone, Recover off the rocks damage.

Sadly, Cryogonal gets destroyed by priority, faster physical moves, Pursuit... yeah. I believe it can work but needs some team support.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Levitate isn't much of an advantage when you're weak to Stealth Rock, sorry. If you really want a spinner with Levitate, use Claydol, who isn't viable in BW OU either but it's miles better than Cryogonal.

 

[Pocket]

Delko, your other analyses, such as EspySun and SubKyurem, are great stuffs, but Crygonal seems to be too circumstantial in OU atm. Sorry, but I am rejecting this.

QC Rejected

 

[Delko]

Understandable, although I have to admit it works better in practice then it looks on paper.
I guess this will stay a gimmick.

 

[zdrup15]

Sorry Delko, I guess you realized this was coming yesterday

QC REJECTED 3/3

 

[Fatecrashers]

poor ice types