Cresselia (Sunny Day) [QC 0/3]

[Knight of Cydonia]

Cresselia

[SET]
name: Sunny Day
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Moonlight
move 3: Ice Beam / Psyshock
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

• Uses Cresselia’s great bulk to set up Sunny Day multiple times in a match if needed. As such it gives you more control over the weather without exposing your Ninetales to unnecessary damage
• Can save the match by setting up sun if you lose Ninetales, as the opponent usually sacrifices their weather inducer first when they think they have won the weather war
• Cresselia benefits because Moonlight becomes more reliable, getting 66.7% health back in one turn compared to 25% in other weathers
• Ice Beam is a good option for dealing with Dragonite and Salamence, which threaten sun teams, as that is one of the standard Cresselia's pros.
• Psyshock is useful for Terrakion and other fighting types as Cresselia can effectively wall most of them.
• The combination of Toxic and Sunny Day means Cresselia is no longer completely helpless against Politoed and Tyranitar. A normal situation would be you Sunny Day, then they switch in their weather inducer as you Toxic them, then Sunny Day again. Some prediction skills are needed for this aspect of using Cresselia. It can usually beat/force out Politoed except Choice Specs from max health, and if it carries Toxic you will outstall with Moonlight. It also stands more of a chance against Tyranitar, and as they will usually Pursuit instead of Crunch it makes life easier if you want to stay in and attempt to beat it. You can’t expect it to deal with them by itself everytime, but with Toxic it has a better chance than the other Cresselia sets, which cry at the sight of sand and rain.
• Thunder Wave can be used over Toxic to slow down a sweeper to allow it to be revenged killed, as Cresselia can survive things such as +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge from Terrakion if at high health.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Heat Rock prolongs the duration of Sunny Day and should give you more than enough time for a Chlorophyll sweep if it comes down to it.
• Lunar Dance can be used to fully restore Ninetales or another team member.
• A specially defensive set could be used to reliably deal with Politoed
• Heatran completely walls this set, Dugtrio deals with it perfectly and is a regular member of sun teams anyway
• Sub Terrakion is really irritating, Dugtrio with Focus Sash intact can aslo deal with this
• Tyranitar is very dangerous - Choice Band does 65-77% with Crunch and Scarf sets deal 40-47%. Dugtrio can deal with Tyranitar (see a pattern here?)
• Gliscor can take this on pretty handily, a strong fire/ice special attack will end it
• Tentacruel and Specially Defensive Jirachi are also problematic. Landorus does pretty well against these two and against the other threats above

 

[JellyOs]

Wow, no one's commented on this yet lol
It's a good set; I really like it. Maybe mention Solarbeam as a way to beat Terrakion? Grass / Fire coverage isn't awful. Nice work.

 

[Schpoonman]

This looks like really nice back-up for sun. Yeah, unless Scizor is max speed, he is outsped and OHKO'd every time.

Terrakion doesn't look like too much of an issue. Jolly CB never gets the 2HKO from full HP (and needs ridiculously awesome damage rolls if you've taken Rocks damage), and +2 LO X-Scissor does 86% max, so you can always predict that and go out to Conkeldurr, or your own Scizor, something like that and break him in half. While all that's happening, he's taking Toxic damage/you're Moonlighting off the damage.

I would mention watching out for CB Tyranitar. Even if you toxic him/Sunny Day on him, Crunch is doing a minimum of 71%.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Thanks for the responses,
@JellyOs - You are right, fire/grass coverage is not bad on a more powerful pokemon, but Cresselia's poor SpA means that without some kind of status move (in this case Toxic) it will find itself as set up fodder for many pokemon, so if a different attacking move was wanted it would have to be instead of Hidden Power Fire. Also after STAB Psyshock has the same power as SolarBeam, hits other fighting types super effectively and isn't affected by the weather.
@Lord of Bays - Yes, Cresselia is one of the few Pokemon who can stand up to CB Terrakion. It is SubSD that Cresselia can't handle as it can get a sub up on the toxic and the sub isn't 2HKOed by a sun boosted HP Fire. Still, it only takes a maximum of 85% from +2 Rock Gem Stone edge so if you were using Psyshock you can beat it 1 vs 1. I did mention CB Ttar in AC, I'll go and emphasise it now as it is an important threat. Honko's damage calculator comes out with 65-77% for max attack CB Ttar Crunch, so theoretically it can usually recover all the damage from Moonlight if Sun is up. If it comes down to it though Cresselia naturally outspeeds Ttar all the way up to those running 184 Spe EVs with a neutral nature, which includes the standard CB set. So in an ideal world you could Sunny Day / Toxic as it switches in, then do the other next turn and stall it out with Moonlight. Of course in practice Cresselia will have taken residual damage and you need good prediction skills to pull this kind of thing off, so preferably you avoid it. Still, I think the fact that I am discussing a possible scenerio where Cresselia actually beats CB Ttar shows the value of this set whereas the current ones die everytime.

 

[ginganinja]

I don't actually like this set very much.

The problem is, you have ONE damaging move, and while its boosted under sunlight, it still leaves you very weak to a lot of threats. Dragons, for example, become very threatening (like Lum Dragonite, or Sub DD) and in general, its a pretty average attack to have. It also means that you are powerless against Bulky Politoed with Refresh or Rest but w/e.

I also don't really consider you "beating" Tyranitar. Moonlight has a whopping 8 PP, and Tyranitar is doing 64.86 - 77.02% while you heal 66% (not 75% as you state) under sunlight. Toxic is going to wear Tyranitar down eventually, however between SR, a high chance to get a defence drop, and crit, plus, Tyranitar can actually keep it up longer than you can, and it will win more often than not.

There are other problems, you really push that this set can lure in and beat Scizor, however, your set works best on a SUN team, which doesn't really care about Scizor as much, as Fire attacks are common place, as is shit like Forretress, or other Fire types like Heatran and Volcarona. Why would I need to lure in Scizor, when most of my team can beat it 1v1?

If you REALLY want to run Cressilia under SUnlight, or on a sun stall team, I would run something like Moonlight / Reflect / Ice Beam / Psychic which is really excellent on sun stall teams, and patchs up weaknesses to Dragons and Terrakion much better. In general, I consider it a better set on a sun stall team, and a much better set on a sun team in general, than your own set.

I guess I don't really understand your sets purpose. Sunny Day Venusaur, can do pretty much everything you said your cress set can do (sets up sunlight, beats Scizor, isnt helpless against Tar + Toed) bar walling Terrakion, which I guess is o.k however then again, Venusaur is a good revenger so trade off I guess. I just don't think this set is very good lol, iv done my bit of testing and I believe other sets are better.

 

[JellyOs]

@ginga
I've been using this set to some decent effect. I might be using it wrong but I tend to use it as more of a sun supporter. I often switch in to take a hit, set up sun for the weather war if there is one or toxic. I'll then switch out or recover, then switch. Correct me if im wrong, but I think this should be more of a fleeting Pokemon on the battlefield. You do bring up good points, and I would definitely consider either two attacks or psysomething over HP Fire. I'm on mobile now, sorry if this is disorganized lol

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

First, all I can say is that I fucked up with the moonlight percentages, so discard what I said about CB Tyranitar (that was a purely hypothetical scenario and that every chance for failure was in your favour).

Perhaps I’ll explain my thought path for this set. I was considering why Cresselia is rarely seen in OU despite it’s great bulk and it seems there are two main reasons – Scizor’s U-turn and unfavourable weather conditions. My first thought in how I could cure the Scizor problem was with a Fire-type move. Searching it’s movepool left me with Hidden Power Fire and the calculations showed that if I wanted to take it out in one hit I would need sun to be up and Stealth Rock or some slight residual damage.

Now, the second problem was Tyranitar and Politoed switching in and cutting Cresselia’s recovery. I realised that Sunny Day could be used to help alleviate this problem, and that this would also help in taking out Scizor. Secondly, standard Cresselia can’t do any proper damage to Tyranitar and Politoed, and looking through it’s movepool I saw that Toxic would be the best way to deal meaningful damage as Cresselia’s near uninvested SpA was too low.

At this point I had to consider the sets viability, so that meant testing. This revealed to me that as well as helping to deal with Cresselia’s main counters, it was a great boon for Ninetales as it took a lot of pressure off of it to maintain sun, and could save the match if Ninetales went down early. My sun teams were also helped by the removal of Scizor as no-one suspected Cresselia to take it out. This meant that I could now get my Chlorophyll sweeps without being stopped by Scizor, who is often most teams only answer for the speed and power of said sweepers. I felt that that this combination of assets meant that I should post it on here.


Now, to answer your questions.

Yes, Substitute users are extremely annoying and Hidden Power Fire is weak, but I believe that the trade-off is worth it because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

3.9% of Politoed used Rest in May, and Refresh didn’t make the list, but by the w/e it seems you know this.

I understand that most members of a sun team can beat Scizor, but this has never made a difference to me, because the opponent sees Venusaur or similar and realises they will need Scizor to stop it sweeping, therefore they guard it like the last beer in the fridge. This means that this unorthodox set is one of the better ways to take it out.

Of course you can have the opinion about the standard set compared to this one, but I believe that they are both good and that the potential users can decide what set matches their team better.

Finally, Sunny Day Venusaur takes an offensive route, whereas this has great bulk and recovery, so although similar in purpose they both go about it in very different ways.

All your points were fair and I have tried to answer them to the best of my ability, but if that hasn’t persuaded you then I don’t know what else I can say. At the very least I'm glad to hear you tested it.

@JellyOs - Yes, I often play it like that, as a sort of one man wall for sun teams that helps Ninetales, but other times I aim to stay in and do as much damage as possible to the other weather inducer to either kill it or take it to the point where Ninetales will be able kill it with Energy Ball or Hidden Power Fighting. Also, I may well put in some more slashes for move choices, as Hidden Power Fire may be too specific / weak for some teams to use, or where Toxic isn't suitable.

 

[Jimera0]

Haven't tested it, but I have to say that I find this set intriguing. I certainly believe there is significant merit to running Sunny Day on Cress, as it has a lot of advantages over other secondary sun supporters (primarily due to the fact it has good bulk and a recovery move, meaning it can actually do it more than once). However I have my doubts about the HP Fire and Toxic, as I can't help but to wonder if standard Cress with Sunny Day in the AC of the Support set wouldn't achieve the same main goal; keeping sun up and winning the weather war.

After thinking about it though I think that this probably is unique enough to warrant its own set. The others really aren't tailored for sun abuse, and have a somewhat baffling lack of Toxic being mentioned anywhere (sure Cress can't toxic stall herself with Moonlight's PP, but seriously, how else is she going to hurt 90% of the things that switch in on her?). The main concern I have is the listing of HP Fire as the main attacking option. While I DO understand the value of luring in Scizor, even on a sun team, I'm not sure it's really a safe option to use without any other attacking move, as it turns Cress into set-up fodder for a disturbing number of Pokemon, especially dragons, which are often why people put Cress on their team in the first place. As such I highly recommend slashing in Ice beam alongside Toxic and Hidden Power Fire. I find Psychic a little less vital, since there aren't a lot of Pokemon Cress can actually hurt with it that it can't just switch out of safely and aren't already hit hard by HP Fire or Ice Beam (Conk, Terrakion... that's about it). Hidden Power Fire won't be ideal for everyone, though I do think that it and Toxic should remain the main slashes... especially considering the astounding number of switch-ins to Cress that are weak to Fire (guess that's what happens when most of your checks are Steel types).

Overall this set looks pretty good in theory. It's not going to be for everyone, but it certainly has a role as a niche set, and I honestly can't think of a more reliable secondary sunny day user. It's just a shame Tyranitar still kind of craps all over it unless you get really damn lucky.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah i agree with Jimera you should slash Ice Beam with HP Fire, because dragons have always been a problem for Sun teams, and Cresselia is able to beat most of them, so it is a shame to put this pro at waste...

Also Jimera this set doesn't lose to Ttar. The only Ttar that can beat this set is the CBTar as all other Ttar variants will fail to do more than 40% to Cresselia, meaning that you can easily Toxic stall them to the point that you can easily win the weather war...

Anyway, this seems like a good set!

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, it seems that the general opinion is to get Ice Beam on the set somewhere, perhaps I am overly bias towards HP Fire as I often run Terrakion on my sun teams as well as a Chlorophyll sweeper. With nearly 30% of teams using Scizor it's value shouldn't be under estimated, but then again I have sometimes missed Ice Beam when facing dragons. I agree with you Jimera0, I think that Sunny Day should get a mention somewhere at the very least if this is not approved. I myself was puzzled as to why there is currently no mention of Toxic when Cresselia's SpA is not much use except when 4x super effective. The Tyranitar sets that this can sometimes force out or beat are the specially defensive ones or mixed attackers, with, as you say a bit of luck or good skill.

Edit - @ alexwolf I am just getting round to that now. Don't forget about Scarf Ttar or the rare Dragon Dance as they deal more damage. Thanks for the support you two!

 

[alexwolf]

Scarf Ttar does 38%-46%, which is not a big deal, so you can still stall him out.

Also maybe you would want to slash Lefties with Heat Rock, since the point of Sunny Day on the set is to allow you to have reliable recovery against Ttar and Politoed in order to stall them out with Toxic. Without Lefties this is significantly harder, and most Ttar/Politoed users wouldn't stay in for more than 2-3 turns, after they see that they can't kill Cressy, and keeping sun up shouldn't be an issue, since the team would already have Ninetales.

 

[shrang]

Personally, I don't like this set. It is such a sitting duck that pretty much every Pokemon and their mother can set up on it, provided they don't mind Toxic. However, it could potentially have some use if we look at it from a different way. Right now, the biggest problem with it is that you're using a sun supporter that lures and kills Scizor. Sound mediocre? It does to me. Sun teams generally do not have problems with Scizor whatsoever (Fire-types, anyone?). So what sun team problems is this set confronting? Nothing. Yes, Scizor makes Cresselia's job miserable, but what about the rest of the team?

So get rid of Hidden Power Fire, it is useless. Replace it with Ice Beam or Psyshock instead. Ice Beam stops Dragonite and Psyshock takes down Terrakion, both of which destroy sun teams far more efficiently than Scizor ever will. Also, consider Thunder Wave a slash with Toxic. Taking a hit from something like a +2 Terrakion and Thunder Waving it may just save you from being swept. So, I think this should be:

[SET]
name: Sunny Day
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Moonlight
move 3: Ice Beam / Psyshock
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpA

Lunar Dance can also be used to bring Ninetales back to full health, which is always nice. Leftovers > Heat Rock. You have Ninetales to bring in the sun, if sandstorm is up and that sort of stuff, Cresselia is dying very, very quickly.

Scarf Ttar does 38%-46%, which is not a big deal, so you can still stall him out.

Just saying, Moonlight only has 8 PP, which Crunch has 16. This is not counting Defense drops and potential crits. 42% average damage is not something you'd want to take chances with in that scenario.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Hmm, perhaps I have been to narrow with this set. The benefits of HP Fire were to lure Scizor in and dispatch it, after all Scizor will avoid the fire attacks from the rest of the team if possible. The second benefit that follows directly from this is to allow a Venusaur sweep in my teams case, because as I said before many teams only answer to a Chlorophyll sweeper is some residual damage and a Bullet Punch, therefore they keep Scizor safe from what they percieve as threats. Of course Scizor won't do much against most of your sun team, but if it is waiting in the wings to take out your main Chlorophyll sweeper, then you may have a tough time in carrying out your game plan if your team depends too much on it.
Now however I start to see how this may be too specific for other sun teams, but then they don't have to use HP Fire, so I want to keep it on the set. It is true that Dragonite and Terrakion are more threating for more members of your average sun team, but HP Fire may be perfect for some teams. Obviously the potential user can make the decision as to what they need Cresselia to do for the team. Anyway your points are completely fair and I am thinking them over just now.
As for Leftovers I have previously recognised Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage as problems, and as there are two suggestions of Leftovers now I will of course change it to the main slash. Heat Rock is valuable for extending a sweep if you lose Ninetales, but I again I hear myself sounding too specific (this is why I cherish constructive criticism). Thunder Wave is also a good idea, and I thought I already had Lunar Dance in AC but I must have forgot to put it in.

 

[alexwolf]

@Shrang

Remember that Tyranitar will be Toxiced, which means that if he stays for too long he risks losing the weather war and dying before he can kill Cresselia, and this is all the Cresselia would even want! Also even with a Def drop you can outstall it since Moonlight heals 66%, and there is also the possibility of you holding lefties. This is all assuming that Ttar stays in until he dies, which he won't, so at most you will take 2-3 hits before Ttar switches out, so the chances of getting crtited or multiple Def drops happening are non-existent.

Now on to the set. As Shrang mentioned Psychic is indeed useful for taking on Terrakion, but sadly this is its only use. Also seeing as only 13,5% of all Terrakion run Sub, a T-Wave or a Toxic will be enough to avoid being set-up bait against most SD Terrakion, and to beat any choiced Terrakion. Because of these reasons i think that Psychic should stay on the AC of the set, because HP Fire and Ice Beam, seem to have more utility in general.

Also even though sun teams don't usually have trouble with Scizor, it is true that nothing stops the Scizor user from saving him 'till late game to check your Venusaur/ Victreebel / Sawsbuck, so Cresselia can act as a decent lure. Also as most Sun teams are offensive, the momentum that you lose when Scizor U-turns out while you switch out with Cresselia is a pretty big deal that shouldn't be overlooked.

All in all i definitely think that HP Fire should stay as a main slash as the selling points of this set over others are:

1. The ability to beat your biggest counters, Scizor and Ttar, with HP Fire and Toxic respectively
2. The ability to win more easily weather wars, taking out the stress from Ninetales

So, imo, the set is fine as it is now!

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

@alexwolf - You are absolutely right that if Cresselia takes Tyranitar down with it then that is excellent, losing it is worth it is Tyranitar is removed aswell. I'm also with you in that HP Fire should be the main slash, but since there are some differences in opinion then QC can obviously decide what gets the chop (if they approve it). I'll leave all the options in just now so we know what we are dealing with and see all the ideas.

 

[alexwolf]

Why Psyshock btw? Psychic deals more damage to your targets, and since this Cresselia has Sunny Day and should be used in a sun team, i don't think that you are going to face a Terrakion in Sand often... In ther other hand with Psyshock you fail to beat Conk 1 on 1, which is 2hkoed by Psychic 85.16% of the time with your spread.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

When you put it that way I'm not sure, I just went with what shrang said, maybe he could explain?

 

[ginganinja]

My guess is that Psyshock better handles Terrakion, especially if Sandstorm is up, and it is also useful for CM Virizion and Tentacruel

 

[alexwolf]

Strangely enough standard Tentacruel take exactly the same damage from Psyshock and Psychic (37.91 - 45.6%), so he is out of the equation.

So basically it comes down to whether you prefer to 2hko Virizion and Terrakion in Sand, or to 2hko BU Conkeldurr. I think that Sun teams have Virizion pretty well covered (not to mention that Toxic already handles CM Virizion pretty good, as he can't kill you fast enough before dying from Toxic damage), and Terrakion would rarely have sun up against a team with 2 weather inducers, so i think Psychic is the best option overall.

 

[ginganinja]

Except that Conkeldurr is seen like, 5% of the time. I don't actually know why you are attempting to justify this. Sure, you have a Ninetales and a Cresselia, well done you, however I have played many a match with a sun team (lets say Ninetales and Sunny Day Venusaur) and you cannot guarantee that sunlight will be up all the time.

For example, all I really need to do is to send in something that will force out NInetales (or something that Ninetales cannot switch in on ) like say, Landorus. I can bring in CB Tyranitar and boom, sandstorm is up, and I get a free turn to abuse the sandstorm with Terrakion. My point is that you are suggesting Psyshic for one pokemon, that is seen less than goddam Vaporeon instead of suggesting Psyshock which hits Virizion, Venusaur, and Terrakion harder.

Its also worth noting that SD Lum Virizion isn't going to give 2 shits about your Toxic, and +2 Leaf Blade is going to hurt (or +4 if you go for the Toxic I guess) (and it carries Stone Edge to fuck up a lot of pokemon commonly seen on a sun team). Venusaur and Virizion sit behind Conk in usage (Venusaur only just) but Terrakion is used about three times more than Conkeldurr, and is the bigger threat to Sun teams has a whole (considering that its tricky for Conkeldurr to find the space to set up without taking boosted Fire Blasts from either Ninetales, Heatran, or Volcarona.

Chances are, you will run into more Terrakion / Virizion / Venusaur (oh yea and you hit Gengar harder as well) than you will against a Conkeldurr so IMO Psyshock is a better option

tl:dr

Psyshock hits more important things harder than Psychic does to my knowledge, which includes Terrakion, a very threatening pokemon to a Sun team and it would be nice to have the insurance. (Unless you can guarantee sunlight being up all the time against a Sandstorm team -__- )

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

This is an interesting debate, and it is complicated by the fact that Psychic is what the current Cresselia sets run. The current analysis speaks about Bisharp as a counter so it is very outdated (who uses Bisharp?), so I think Psychic was the main option because it was written at a time when Conkeldurr was prominent. The metagame has now shifted towards Terrakion, so perhaps Psyshock is preferable now on those sets aswell? Anyway, ginganinja's points seem to outweigh alexwolf's, both are useful but I think now that Psyshock is better. After all you can't afford to give another turn to Terrakion if sand is up.

 

[alexwolf]

Except that the only Terrakion where Psychic not 2hkoing matters is against the SD sets. Against choiced sets you either manage to outstall Terrakion because he gets a SE miss, or you get 3hkoed in Sand from CB Terrakion, because you are in sand and cannot heal and you cannot ohko, so Psyshock or Psychic you lose.

So we are talking about a case where we see an SD Terrakion IN Sand, when we have 2 sun abusers. While i know that the scenario you described can certainly happen, the sun player can do many things to avoid getting in that scenario, so it isn't as easy as you make it seem. SD Terrakion is seen 28,3% of the times, and even assuming that every Terrakion will be in a sand team, which it won't, then let's say that 50% of the time that Terrakion is out against you, sand will be up (which is just an arbitary number that i made up for the sake of arguing, i myself believe that it is much easier with 2 weather inducers to not find yourself in such an uncomfortable scenario). So this means that the situation you described, where Psyshock would be better happens when all these circumstances are true, so the chance for this is 28,3%(SD usage) * 50%(chance of Terrakion having Sand up) * 17,252%(Terrakion's usage) ~ 2,4%.

Also forget what i said before, Psyshock has zero benefits over Psychic against any Virizion. CM Virizion gets outstalled with Toxic, and SD Virizion gets 2hkoed by Psychic after SR 93.36% of the time.

I don't even know why you mention Venusuar, since the damage difference between Psyshock and Psychic is so small that it doesn't matter (Psyshock does 55.62 - 66.88%, while Psychic does 54.96 - 64.9% to 4 HP Venusaur).

So in reality, what we are arguing about is whether you need Psyshock for the 2,4% chance that you will find Terrakion in a situation where having Psyshock would matter, or for Conkeldurr which is found on 5,314% of the teams.

 

[ginganinja]

look, im not actually going to bother dragging this out when you consider that SD Terrakion is less common than Bulk Up Conk (thats the impression your giving me anyway). Also is that 5,314% all the conk that run Bulk Up or the bulk stats? (EDIT don't answer that cbfed arguing with you over this) Regardless I don't think either of us are going to agree, nor do I want us to derail this thread so im just not going to respond to this argument anyway. Either way slash them both IMO and let QC decide. I personally always saw the use for Psyshock but w.e, maybe you see more Conk than I do T_T

 

[alexwolf]

I am arguing that Conkeldurr is much more common than seeing a SD Terrakion IN Sand (again we are using 2 weather inducers for crying out loud, and as i said before i was very lenient and assumed that every Terrakion we will see will be in sand, for argument's sake).

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Why not add Reflect as a slash if youre so scared of Tyranitar and Scizor?