Process Update Competitive Moves Update

[tennisace]

Hi there.

This was never updated I guess? I have two lists, one of moves that are definitely competitive, and one that needs discussion. As a note, legendary exclusive moves WILL be included, however I'll add a note to the footnotes in this article designating them as such. Also note that these are not sorted, however I will just manually sort them when I add them to the article. Gonna probably close this tomorrow after classes, which is like 5:30 est.

Competitive Moves:
Hone Claws
Psyshock
Autotomize
Sludge Wave
Quiver Dance
Flame Charge
Coil
Clear Smog
Stored Power
Scald
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Circle Throw
Retaliate
Final Gambit
Volt Switch
Bulldoze
Dragon Tail
Work Up
Wild Charge
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Horn Leech
Sacred Sword
Cotton Guard
Psystrike
Hurricane
Head Charge
Gear Grind
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Bolt Strike
Blue Flare
Fiery Dance
Freeze Shock
Ice Burn
Icicle Crash
V-create
Fusion Flare
Fusion Bolt

Maybe competitive, needs discussion:
Venoshock
Heavy Slam
Electro Ball
Soak
Acid Spray
Foul Play
Low Sweep
Entrainment
Round
Chip Away
Sky Drop
Electroweb
Razor Shell
Heat Crash
Leaf Tornado
Techno Blast
Relic Song
Snarl
Smack Down
Storm Throw
Hex
Inferno
Frost Breath
Tail Slap
Glaciate

New moves taken from here, credit to Serebii for the list.

 

[Stratos]

for the maybes:

Venoshock no I'd say no for this one, as Sludge Bomb/Wave is less situational and only less powerful on average if you're a Tspiker, but should really never be used.
Heavy Slam no No again, you should always opt for Gyro Ball as heavy basically = slow and speed is a more dominant factor in the meta than weight
Electro Ball maybe This could be good on a paralyzer, i say let it be on the competitive move list
Soak no Can be used to bypass otherwise good typing but remedied by switching out which makes it pretty bad IMO
Acid Spray yes This is a good move for forcing switches, i say yes.
Foul Play yes Great move for physical walls as it lets them dish out powerful hits even though they probably have a shit attack stat.
Low Sweep yes Good for catching would-be counters on the switch; I say yes.
Entrainment no If you can switch out to get rid of it it's pretty bad, and you can.
Round no Not powerful enough and a poor typing means this move is bad no matter what.
Chip Away no Outclassed by Frost Breath and Storm Throw, plus it's got a horrible type when you consider most physical walls are steel type.
Sky Drop no Only useful for Toxic Stall; I'm on the fence on this one but i'm thinking no.
Electroweb yes see low sweep
Razor Shell no flinch chance >>>> def drop chance.
Heat Crash no See Heavy Slam
Leaf Tornado no Accuracy drop is a pretty shit strategy.
Techno Blast no Techno Blast is a pretty shit move; it forces you to run a useless item and only has meh BP
Relic Song no Relic Song is horribly uncompetitive unless you just so happen to change forms when you use it; no
Snarl no Okay for Special Walls but they'll usually have something better to do so no.
Smack Down no If you're using Smack Down you're trying to bypass either Skarm or Zong but they by this point have switched out and regained Levitate.
Storm Throw yes Good move; lets you bypass defensive boosts better than Chip Away
Hex no Generally too situational; even when statused 100 BP is nothing to write home about and when unstatused it's horrendous
Inferno no About as competitive as a DynamicPunch Breloom; no
Frost Breath yes See Storm Throw
Tail Slap yes Pretty good; with STAB has on average more power than return, not to mention either Technician or Skill Link can make it beautiful
Glaciate yes See Low Sweep

 

[AJC]

Heavy slam and heat crash will be inferior moves as long has they take into account 2 mons weight instead just the users i wouldn't call them competitive at all has the user has to massively out weigh a target to get competitive Base power ranges which is worse for heavy slam due to steels generally bad coverage.

Snarl only hope to be of any decent worth of a move is to find itself on a stab user who has decent special attacking stat who is also holding Technician as a ability because it's just too weak by itself with the special attack drop on the foe not being useful most of the time.

Soak is a waste of a move slot at worse the only viable uses it has is the really gimmicky and easy to work to prevent removal of type based status immunity like making steels and poisons able to be hit by toxic or a fire type being burned by Will-o-wisp.

Chip Away only problem is that Sacred sword does the same thing with a better offensive typing and better BP but even then defensive boosters are rare to start with outside of rare curse users and defensive boosters on BP teams so it's outclassed by other moves making it not as competitive as it could be.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

For several of them, I'd say Foul Play, Entrainment, Sky Drop, Techno Blast, and Snarl are not competitive.

*Edit*

Add Heavy Slam, Electro Ball, Soak, Chip Away, and Heat Crash for not competitive.

*EditX2*

Remember not to post lists of moves without any explination to go with them. They won't help at all. I'm looking at you Aerodactyl Legend.

People have had a habit of doing that in the past so I'm trying to nip that in the bud. Otherwise, thanks for the input guys.

Will do. Was gonna add more and put some explanations down, but had to do a test for this class, haha.

Explanations of for those not competitive.

Foul Play - There is no way to control what will the opponent's SpA. will be. Even more subjective than the "weight" moves.

Entrainment - Gastro Acid, but even worse. Why give a possibly good ability to your opponent?

Sky Drop - No use for this. Fly, but weaker. It prevents an opponent from setting up, but it's too weak.

Techno Blast - So no side effect, average (only decent) base power, requires the use of specific items, no.

Snarl - Weak, a chance to miss, laughable side effect. Even Technician won't help this.

Heavy Slam - Weight is too subjective. You can control your side, but you may face heavy opponents.

Electro Ball - Subjective as well. Harder to use than Gyro Ball. You can paralyze stuff (but you can be as well). I'm not too sure on this one, but I'm going with "no" for now.

Soak - As mentioned above, the only use is to bypass immunities for certain moves, but it's not worth the extra moveslot and time. Especially when they can switch out and back in.

Chip Away - When Normal moves are an option, you're always using stuff like Body Slam, Return, Double Edge, etc. Power is always the way to go, because there's no guarantee that you'll be facing someone whose accumilated Def increases and can be hit with a Normal move. Worse if unstabbed.

Heat Crash - Same as Heavy Slam. Better typing, but still bad.

By the ways, welcome back, Wyverii.

 

[Wyverii]

Remember not to post lists of moves without any explination to go with them. They won't help at all. I'm looking at you Aerodactyl Legend.

People have had a habit of doing that in the past so I'm trying to nip that in the bud. Otherwise, thanks for the input guys.

 

[Zarel]

Razor Shell no flinch chance >>>> def drop chance.

Cloyster doesn't get Razor Shell... Is a move considered competitive if it's useful in certain situations? (Same question goes for Relic Song, and most Technician moves).

Tail Slap yes Pretty good; with STAB has on average more power than return, not to mention either Technician or Skill Link can make it beautiful

Tail Slap has an average power of 64 (75 if you disregard misses)... After Technician it's 96 (113), and after Skill Link it's 106 (125).

So after Skill Link it's better than Return, but I wouldn't say the same for Tail Slap by itself.

 

[tennisace]

Technician and other abilities don't factor into this list. Obviously some moves would be helped by Technician/Skill Link/No Guard, but if those abilities (or others I may be forgetting) are chosen, then the moves they affect will be considered competitive.

 

[Spenstar]

Venoshock No. It's only useful on a Toxic Spiker or a team with T-spikes support. Even then, two types and an ability are dedicated to preventing it, Tspikes can be destroyed in a single switch, and any other status renders this move useless. 95 BP Sludge Wave is plenty.
Heavy Slam No. Many Pokemon with high stats, quite a few of which are in OU to say the least, are heavy enough to render this move useless. Gyro Ball and Iron Head are fine. Unless you want a fast attacker with heavy metal... but that's the thing. You have to waste your ability just to make this move decent.
Electro Ball Probably not. Almost as bad as Venoshock, but not quite because no type is fully immune to Paralysis and there are other ways to affect speed. With paralysis its awesome, but any other status or aromatherapy makes this move moot. It can work with tailwind support or on a Speed Boost Pokemon. That would be interesting. But aside from that, it's gimmicky and overrated.
Soak Yes. While it is gimmicky, there are more possibilities to explore besides Darmanitan getting burned or Ferrothorn getting poisoned. A fast wall could use this move to take more hits by depriving mons of their STAB and giving them two consistent weaknesses. Its useless without both speed and bulk behind it, but if you can pull it off, I see potential in it.
Acid Spray Why the hell not? This move is a PseudoPhaser in that it forces the opponent to make a switch. It can be deadly in the hands of hazards and a good mindgamer. I'd say yes completely if the most awesome type in the game wasn't immune to it, but oh well...
Foul Play YES. Anyone who says no can suck it. This move turns sweepers against themselves, can spare a defensive mon Seismic Toss or offensive investment, and has no immunities. This move can turn a wall into a wall with offensive presence. It just needs better distribution than Sableye...
Low Sweep No. It has novelty but its too weak.
Entrainment Possibly. I could see it working as a PseudoPhaser, on a Pokemon whose ability benefits itself and nobody else, like Dry Skin, or Hustle, or Mountaineer, or Contrary, or... you get the idea. Thing is, YOU have to benefit from your own ability if you want it to work.Traunt entrainment is not good, but Solar Power can work. See what I'm saying?
Round No. Hyper Voice shits all over Round
Chip Away No. Any argument for this move is better saved for Sacred Sword or Storm Throw, which is just better. Yes, Bulk Ups are hard to break through, but this move is not how you do it!
Sky Drop Yes, but situational. Combine it with something like Soak, or Technician, or Toxic, and you have a weapon on your hands. SoakToxic TechniDrop? Crazy but it just might work. Awesome for stalling out time.
Electroweb No. Even after Technician there are better electric moves, and you'd rather be lowering your foe's speed through other methods anyway.
Razor Shell Yes. Waterfall only goes so far. On a slower mon, the potential defense drop is more useful.
Heat Crash No. See Heavy Slam.
Leaf Tornado No. Way too haxy
Techno Blast No. Requires a valuable item slot and everything possible is easily outclassed.
Relic Song No. Keep it with Meloetta. We'd rather have Hyper Voice.
Snarl Maybe. The special attack drop is felt against many potential switch-ins. It can work on a more defensive mon.
Smack Down No. For mind games it can hit the switch-in, who you then nail with an EQ, but its too situational to work.
Storm Throw Yes. This move is hurt by poor distribution, but it can be amazing. ST ignores defense boosts, stops ragequitting due to hax on the part of the target, and outdamages Brick Break and Drain Punch as it is, it's wasted on mons with better options. In the right hands, it can devastate.
Frost Breath No. Ice Beam exists and is widespread. And most defense boosts are physical anyway, from Bulk Up.
Hex Yes. Epic with any kind of status support, including T-spikes, and work under any status.
Inferno No. Too luck-reliant
Tail Slap No. Worked for Ciccino, but she had STAB and one of two great abilities to abuse it with. If we're going the multi-hit route, we're better off with a different typing, making this poor sap obsolete.
Glaciate No. Outclassed by everything.

edit: nevermind Technician. Sorry Tennisace

 

[AJC]

Retaliate is too circumstantial i feel to be truly competitive since you can only draw out it's full potential with the death of a team mate and a normal type with decent attack score which is only good once per teammate death that isn't really good after you show you have it.

it's a gimmick option at best since it requires a narrow range of criteria to be a decent move.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Yeah, agree with that. Not only does that mean you essentially get the full potential of it up to five times, the Pokemon who has the move must be able to even take on/damage the opponent they switch into. Basically, the match up has to be favorable, so you're going to get less than five good uses period.

 

[Deck Knight]

Pwnemon: Taunt would like a word with you about moves that can be switched out of being bad by default.

Cloyster doesn't get Razor Shell... Is a move considered competitive if it's useful in certain situations? (Same question goes for Relic Song, and most Technician moves).

Cloyster DOES get Razor Shell. It's one of Shellder's Level-up moves (Level 32). Be very careful when implementing Stone Evolution movelists, as most of them get their Level-up pool from prevos, plus a few more moves after they evolve.

As far as the list:

Venoshock - No. Too situational, and hits almost nothing SE.

Heavy Slam - No. While we could make a fatass 8000 lb. mon to abuse it, there's little practicality of that happening. Steel is a bad offensive STAB anyway. Gyro Ball or Iron Head are generally better.

Electro Ball - Yes. A sufficiently fast Pokemon or a mon with paralyzing options, Speed Boost, Tailwind, etc. would be able to use this effectively. Paralysis alone makes Pokemon that start with equal speed have a power of 120.

Soak - Yes. Being able to nullify STAB and open up your opponent to one of your attacks is a huge opportunity.

Acid Spray - Yes. It's basically Fake Tears except it can't be taunted.

Foul Play - Yes. The move is very sound in theory, it just hasn't been placed on a Pokemon defensive enough to utilize it.

Low Sweep - No. Has too much competition with other Fighting moves with superior effects.

Entrainment - Yes. It is highly situational, but the key is it gets rid of an opponent's abilities. Even if your ability isn't that great, you can rob a foe of Guts, Technician, Skill Link, etc. More to the point it can even be used with better abilities, like a Special Attacker with Intimidate. Doesn't much matter if Entrainment ends up Intimidating you, you still removed the foe's ability.

Round - No. Too weak.

Chip Away - No. Too much competition with other normal moves, Base Power isn't high enough to have much impact.

Sky Drop - No. This functions similarly to Fly. It can be milked for Toxic Stalling, but in general it's too weak and leaves the user vulnerable if a slower Pokemon switches in.

Electroweb - No. too weak.

Razor Shell - Yes. Unlike Crush Claw, it lacks any competition for a high powered physical STAB move. Waterfall is slightly stronger and more accurate, but Razor Shell easily wins out on damage if it gets a defense drop.

Heat Crash - No. It competes with Flare Blitz which has the same maximum power, and again, unless we make an 8000 lb mon its barely more powerful than Blaze Kick most of the time.

Leaf Tornado - No. Too weak and inaccurate.

Techno Blast - No. too weak, all possible uses are weaker than standard moves.

Relic Song - Yes. Competitively speaking its only competition is Hyper Voice, which is stronger but doesn't have the sleep chance. It's still a "legendary" move, but it deserves consideration.

Snarl - No. too weak. Even with the SpA drop, it doesn't do enough damage.

Smack Down - Yes. Levitate is incredibly common, several threats are weak to Earthquake if their Ground immunity is removed (Skarmory/Thundurus/Zapdos/Bronzong/Gengar/Rotom Formes/Aerodactyl), and if the Pokemon has Arena Trap (or is used on a team with Duggy/Pinch) then they can guarantee a revenge kill.

Storm Throw - Yes. The damage is similar to that of Brick Break, but it breaks through screens and defense boosts.

Hex - Yes. Status is so uniquitous that getting the 100 BP is not a difficult task.

Inferno - No. Accuracy is too sketchy.

Frost Breath - Yes. It breaks through Light Screen and additionally, unlike Storm Throw, nothing is immune to it.

Tail Slap - No. Too much competition with other Normal moves, especially Double Hit in this case.

Glaciate - No. It's basically Icy Wind +10 BP - 5PP. Too weak.

 

[Zarel]

Venoshock No. It's only useful on a Toxic Spiker or a team with T-spikes support. Even then, two types and an ability are dedicated to preventing it, Tspikes can be destroyed in a single switch, and any other status renders this move useless. 95 BP Sludge Wave is plenty.

Just wanted to point out, this is actually three types (Poison, Steel, Flying), and four abilities (Levitate, Immunity, Leaf Guard, Hydration). Not to mention Shed Skin.

Cloyster DOES get Razor Shell. It's one of Shellder's Level-up moves (Level 32).

I mean it doesn't get Waterfall, so Razor Shell is its best option for a physical Water move.

Storm Throw - Yes. The damage is similar to that of Brick Break, but it breaks through screens and defense boosts.

Frost Breath - Yes. It breaks through Light Screen and additionally, unlike Storm Throw, nothing is immune to it.

I believe that:

1. Crits only bypass stat stages (e.g. Stockpile), not other stat modifications (e.g. Marvel Scale).

2. As of gen 2 or gen 3, the screens stopped being a stat modifier and started being a base power modifier.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Um this was updated before Tomohawk

http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions

Just not in all the articles that relate to it.

This is the relevant bit of what's onsite for the benefit of people who can't click the link above

Very Good Move List

Very Good Move List
Acid Armor	        Coil	                Facade	Horn Leech	Moonlight	        Rock Slide	Switcheroo
Acid Spray	        Confuse Ray	Fake Out	Howl	        Morning Sun	Roost	Swords Dance
Acrobatics	        Cosmic Power	Fire Blast	Hurricane	Muddy Water	Scald	Synthesis
Aerial Ace	        Cotton Guard	Fire Fang	Hydro Pump	Nasty Plot	        Seed Bomb	Tail Glow
Agility      	        Counter              	Fire Punch	Hyper Voice	Nature Power	Seismic Toss	Tail Slap
Air Slash	        Crabhammer	Flame Charge	Ice Beam	Night Daze	Shadow Ball	Taunt
Amnesia       	        Cross Chop	Flamethrower	Ice Fang	Night Shade	Shadow Claw	Teeter Dance
Aqua Jet	        Cross Poison	Flare Blitz	Ice Punch	Night Slash	Shadow Punch	Thrash
Aqua Tail	        Crunch	Flash Cannon	Ice Shard	Outrage	Shadow Sneak	Thunder
Aromatherapy	Curse*	Focus Blast	Icicle Crash	Overheat	Sharpen	Thunder Fang
Attack Order	Dark Pulse	Focus Punch	Icicle Spear	Pain Split	Shell Smash	Thunder Wave
Aura Sphere	Defend Order	Foul Play	Ingrain	Payback	Shift Gear	Thunderbolt
Autotomize	        Destiny Bond	Frost Breath	Iron Defense	Perish Song	Signal Beam	ThunderPunch
Avalanche	        Detect	Frustration	Iron Head	Petal Dance	Sky Uppercut	Toxic
Barrier	        Discharge	Gear Grind	Iron Tail	Poison Jab	Slack Off	Toxic Spikes
Baton Pass	        Double-edge	Giga Drain	Jump Kick	Power Whip	Sleep Powder	Tri Attack
Belly Drum	        Draco Meteor	Glare	Knock Off	Protect	Sleep Talk	Trick
Blaze Kick	        Dragon Claw	Grass Knot	Lava Plume	Psychic	Sludge Bomb	Trick Room
Blizzard	        Dragon Dance	Gravity	Leaf Blade	Psycho Shift	Sludge Wave	U-turn
Block           	Dragon Pulse	Growth	Leaf Storm	Psyshock	Softboiled	Vacuum Wave
Body Slam   	Dragon Rush	Gunk Shot	Leech Seed	Pursuit	Spark	Volt Switch
Bone Rush   	Dragon Tail	Gyro Ball	Light Screen	Quick Attack	Spider Web	Volt Tackle
Bonemerang	Drain Punch	Hammer Arm	Lovely Kiss	Quiver Dance	Spikes	Water Spout
Bounce       	Drill Peck	Haze	Low Kick	Rain Dance	Spore	Waterfall
Brave Bird   	Drill Run	Head Charge	Mach Punch	Rapid Spin	Stealth Rock	Weather Ball
Brick Break  	Dual Chop	Head Smash	Magic Coat	Razor Shell	Stockpile	Whirlwind
Bug Buzz     	Earth Power	Heal Bell	Magnet Rise	Recover	Stone Edge	Wild Charge
Bulk Up       	Earthquake	Heal Order	Mean Look	Reflect	Stored Power	Will-O-Wisp
Bullet Punch	Electro Ball	Healing Wish	Meditate	Refresh	Storm Throw	Wish
Bullet Seed  	Encore	Heat Crash	Mega Kick	Rest	Stun Spore	Wood Hammer
Calm Mind   	Endeavor	Heat Wave	Megahorn	Return	Substitute	Work Up
Charge Beam	Energy Ball	Heavy Slam	Memento	Reversal	Sucker Punch	X-Scissor
Circle Throw	Eruption	Hi Jump Kick	Meteor Mash	Roar	Super Fang	Yawn
Clear Smog  	Extrasensory	Hidden Power	Milk Drink	Rock Blast	Superpower	Zen Headbutt
Close Combat	ExtremeSpeed	Hone Claws	Mirror Coat	Rock Polish	Surf

* Curse only counts as a Very Good Move for Pokemon that are not of the Ghost-type

As previously mentioned, there are a number of considerations that can cause the VGM list to change, depending on the situation. While the final VGM list is subject to the Topic Leader's discretion, the following rules are applicable at all times unless the Topic Leader explicitly states otherwise:

Legendary Pokemon signature moves are automatically disallowed for all CAPs.

Note that this does not include non-legendary signature moves, although these may also be frowned upon. As stated above, these moves should not be put into your movepools unless specifically allowed by the Topic Leader. A list of all moves that this rule applies to is below.

Legendary Signature Move List
Aeroblast	Fusion Bolt	Mist Ball	Secret Sword
Blue Flare	Fusion Flare	Psycho Boost	Seed Flare
Bolt Strike	Heart Swap	Psystrike	Shadow Force
Crush Grip	Ice Burn	Relic Song	Spacial Rend
Dark Void	Judgment	Roar of Time	Techno Blast
Doom Desire	Lunar Dance	Sacred Fire	V-create
Freeze Shock	Luster Purge	Sacred Sword	
Glaciate	Magma Storm	Searing Shot

Move copies count as VGMs, but only count once as Very Good Moves when more than one are present in a movepool.

As seen in the below table, there are some moves that have other moves listed next to them. These moves are 'equivalent' in terms of the Very Good Move list, which means that the moves count as 1 Very Good Move alone or together. For instance, if a movepool has both Recover and Slack Off on it, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as 2 moves toward the total move count.

Equivalent Move List
Acid Armor	 Iron Defense	 Barrier		
Agility	 Rock Polish			
Aromatherapy	 Heal Bell			
Block	 Mean Look	 Spider Web		
Cosmic Power	 Defend Order			
Detect	 Protect			
Frustration	 Return			
Heal Order	 Milk Drink	 Recover	 Slack Off	 Softboiled
Howl	 Meditate	 Sharpen		
Moonlight	 Morning Sun	 Synthesis		
Roar	 Whirlwind			
Switcheroo	 Trick

If a VGM is completely outclassed by another VGM in the movepool, the two moves only count together as one VGM.

As above, certain moves are so much outclassed by other moves that there is literally no scenario where the lesser move would be a wiser choice over the former. For example, Tail Glow provides a three-stage boost to Special Attack, but Nasty Plot only boosts the stat two stages. If both Tail Glow and Nasty Plot are on the same movepool, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as two moves towards the total move count. This rule is also not absolute; if an outclassed VGM is available with different other VGMs based on movepool illegalities, it may be required that both the outclassed VGM and the outclassing VGM count as VGMs. It must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.

Outclassed Move List
Outclassing Moves	Outclassed Moves
Attack Order	X-Scissor		
Autotomize	Agility	Rock Polish	
Bulk Up	Sharpen	Howl	Meditate
Coil	Bulk Up	Hone Claws	
Cotton Guard	Acid Armor	Iron Defense	Barrier
Explosion	Selfdestruct		
Growth	Work Up		
Head Charge	Double-Edge		
Hi Jump Kick	Jump Kick		
Hone Claws	Sharpen	Howl	Meditate
Leaf Blade	Seed Bomb		
Quiver Dance	Calm Mind		
Shift Gear	Dragon Dance	Agility	Rock Polish
Spore	Sleep Powder		
Swords Dance	Sharpen	Howl	Meditate
Tail Glow	Nasty Plot		
Work Up	Sharpen	Howl	Meditate

All moves made competitively viable by an ability are also considered VGMs.

Abilities, such as Technician and No Guard, affect the viability of specific moves that might not otherwise be considered VGMs. If a move's Base Power, accuracy, or secondary effects are made comparable to an existing Very Good Move by an ability, then that move is considered a VGM. For instance, a Pokemon with No Guard would turn Dynamicpunch into a Very Good Move through the removal of accuracy as a factor.

If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Topic Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP.
For example, a Dark-type CAP with low Special Attack and high Attack has little use for Shadow Ball, which gives almost exactly the same coverage as its STAB attacks, but without the STAB boost and off its weaker attacking stat. This move is of very little competitive use for that CAP. In this case, the Topic Leader may decide to discount this move as a VGM; however, it will still be a part of the total move count. This discounting is only for cases where it really makes or breaks a CAP, however, and doesn't give you freedom to overload a movepool with worthless VGMs.

So if any changes are made to the list in this thread, then the information on-site will need updating as well.

(On another note, may want to include moves that had mechanics changes in this thread - Bullet Seed, Jump Kick, etc.)

 

[Spenstar]

Just wanted to point out, this is actually three types (Poison, Steel, Flying), and four abilities (Levitate, Immunity, Leaf Guard, Hydration). Not to mention Shed Skin.

I'm sorry, I should have worded that better. I meant that Poison and Steel are immune to Toxic itself. Flying types (and levitators) are immune to Tspikes but can be poisoned by other means, but I guess in all practical means you are right.

 

[macle]

honestly I don't see any of the moves being competitive. Do you really see any of those moves being used in ANY tier? The only way i see these moves being used is for gimmicks....

 

[DarkSlay]

My two cents:

Venoshock: No. Only viable in conjunction with Toxic Spikes. Toxic users themselves are very rare, and many Toxic Stall users don't have access to this move anyway.

Heavy Slam: No. Generally impractical move that has too many variables to be considered consistent damage.

Electro Ball - On the fence towards no. While the prospect of a really fast Pokemon that runs TWave support sounds nice in theory, this move has some really odd limitations in normal circumstances that rarely makes it more powerful than Thunderbolt. There's just so many variables that affect this move (What if the user is paralyzed? What if it's against an equally fast Pokemon?) Secondly, the use of Electro Ball is really confined to its STAB users in order to make the move competitive, meaning that Electro Ball makes for a poor coverage move. That limits potential greatly. I don't think that one circumstance really makes the entire move competitive when it just has so many variables.

Soak - On the fence. Really, the only time you want to change an opposing Pokemon's typing is to enable it to be hit by a move that it normally cannot be hit with. For example, changing a Steel/Poison type so that it can be hit with Toxic poisoning. Personally, I don't think that the typing change just to allow status on immune Pokemon is worth it (however, if Soak allowed the target to be hit with TSpikes on that turn, we might have a more useful move). I see this move as a "one trick pony" move that has some weird drawbacks, so I find it hard to put this in a competitive mindset.

Acid Spray - Yes. -2 Special Defense drop moves have proven pretty useful in the past. Things like MSDos and Fake Tears Jolteon were pretty viable in the competitive Gen IV metagame, and this move does exactly the same thing, but without hindrance from Taunt (albeit hindrance from Substitute) and with perfect accuracy. This move is to Metal Sound/Fake Tears as Dragon Tail is to Whirlwind/Roar. Also, this could potentially force a few switches now and then. The only item in question is the Steel immunity. I think it's pretty viable.

Foul Play - On the fence. I think I just need to know more about this move's usefulness. Most Ghost/Psychic types that are weak to Dark, save Golurk, don't have high Attack stats, which means that Crunch and Night Slash deliver much more consistent, strong damage no matter what the situation. If I'm missing something, then feel free to interject.

Low Sweep - No. Not an inherently useful move in most circumstances, and definitely not a powerful STAB or non-STAB option.

Entrainment - No. Sounds to me like this is a worse Skill Swap (the antithesis of Role Play, to be exact). I mean, I guess it's cool that you get to keep your own ability while still changing your opponent's, so a "viable" ability stays with the user, but there are very, very Pokemon specific circumstances where the move could be considered viable, if any. This move relies too heavily on the gimmick of eliminating abilities, which to me is not very competitive.

Round - No. Obviously a bad move.

Chip Away - No. Secondary effect does not make up for the lack of power.

Sky Drop - No. It's interesting to note, however, that Sky Drop does something that Fly / Bounce cannot: it prevents the move from being stopped by Protect / Detect on the second action, therefore guaranteeing a hit if the first stage of the move is successful. Is that enough to make it competitively viable? Probably not. Just some food for thought.

Electroweb - No. Again, secondary effect does not make up for the move's weak base power.

Razor Shell - Yes. Semi-powerful Physical Water STAB that has a secondary chance effect that enables the target to take more damage from the same move the next turn. It has competition with Waterfall (initially slightly more powerful with a flinch chance and perfect accuracy) and Aqua Tail (more powerful initially), but I can definitely see situations where Razor Shell could be used competitively and successfully.

Heat Crash - No. See: Heavy Slam, but I suppose with better offensive typing.

Leaf Tornado - No. No way, not with things like Giga Drain out there.

Techno Blast - No. Signature move that is item based. Don't like it.

Relic Song - No. Signature move. I guess it can be a tiny bit useful, due to lack of Special Normal type moves. Still, I don't see it viable.

Snarl - No. Decent in theory, but not powerful enough to do anything in reality. Same with Struggle Bug.

Smack Down - On the fence towards no. Eh. It's a neat move that eliminates Flying types and Levitators, but rarely is a Flying type weak to Ground (assuming after this move is used) but not Rock (and the exception is Skarmory), a common move pairing. The Arena Trap niche is neat, but thinking about it, you still probably aren't going to keep a Flying/Levitating Pokemon in unless that said Pokemon can beat the Arena Trap user, so it's semi-pointless in that regard. Only useful on the switch...from a Flying type/Levitator to another Flying type/Levitator? Useful in theory, but in reality, I'm not too sure.

Storm Throw - Yes. From what I have read, critical hits do indeed ignore Screens, so this is a very useful move that puts it in the realm of Brick Break. It just has theoretically more power than Brick Break and also ignores defense boosts like Bulk Up and Curse. So...not sure why this wouldn't be competitive except against Battle/Shell Armor Pokemon?

Hex - Yes. Unlike Venoshock, this move gets increased with all types of status, which is a very useful thing on some Pokemon. 100 BP Ghost move is nothing to sneeze at.

Inferno - No. Same realm as Dynamic Punch, so only when in conjunction with No Guard is this move useful.

Frost Breath - Yes. See: Storm Throw, but with Ice typing, which is neat. In terms of Icicle Spear, it's what Brick Break is to Cross Chop.

Tail Slap - No. Move that relies on ability to make it competitive.

Glaciate - No. Secondary effect, much like Icy Wind, doesn't make up for the lack of power.

 

[Elevator Music]

I would say the list I feel is competitive out of the 'maybe' list is the following:

Acid Spray
Razor Shell
Smack Down
Storm Throw
Hex

My reasoning is really no different than anyone elses in this thread

also possibly including:

Foul Play: tbh I really don't know that much about this move. seems cool on specific pokemon, like skarm or something. I'd lean towards yes
Frost Breath: differs from Storm Throw as 1) it has an almost completely superior counterpart in Ice Beam, and 2) has imperfect accuracy. Screens aren't really THAT common, and neither are special defense boosters. I mean I guess it would be nice against CM Virizion/Latias but tbh I wouldn't be using anything with Frost Breath against them.... so probably not but maybe I'm missing something. It lacks an immunity??
Soak: eliminating STAB is nice, still seems kinda niche though and I'd almost always want a different move over it I think. But like CM Virizion with CM/Soak/Giga Drain/whatever would be cool! I guess I'd lean towards yes

 

[zarator]

@Deck Knight: about Entrainment, it all sounds good and all... except Gastro Acid does the same thing but better (unless you're Archeops, Regigigas, Stall Sableye or Slaking, I guess, but then again...).

Also, I dunno if I'm allowed to, but I contest the "competitive" placement of some moves.

Bulldoze - Could you enlighten me about this? I can't think about any single Pokémon which would use this move with any regularity. The best user I can think of is Ferrothorn (for Magnezone), and that's even more situational than stuff you deemed "on the fence". This needs to go IMO.
Retaliate - Ok, this is possibly even worse than Bulldoze. I'd rather use Facade if I wanted to go with the entire "70 but sometimes 140" theme. Retaliate is a very bad move, with horrible PP, and I'd never choose it over Return/Frustration. Ever.
Final Gambit - This move has "highly situational" written all over it. In order for it to do decent damage, you need to be at good health. And why should I throw away, say, an 80% HP Victini just to deal 303 damage? Ok, I get the entire "Lure in a counter and dispatch it with Final Gambit", but seriously, putting Final Gambit Victini to make it boom up on Slowbro (off the top of my head) is very risky, definitely situational, and less competitive than I'd like.
Freeze Shock/Ice Burn - They are cool and all, but recharge moves suck. There's a reason nothing uses Sky Attack, not even with Power Herb. This is even a worse gimmick than White Herb Draco Meteor/Overheat/Leaf Storm.

As for the controversial moves, I agree pretty much with DarkSlay, except when he talks about Storm Throw (Brick Break is better 95% of the time, you'd rather phaze/taunt Bulk Up/Curse users)

 

[jas61292]

Venoshock - I would say No to this one. It can be useful, but is too situational to be considered competitive in general.

Heavy Slam - Pretty much the same as above. It has its uses, there are just not enough of them.

Electro Ball - Once again I would say no. There is almost no situation where Thunderbolt or a similar move isn't better. Maybe if someone like Jolteon had Motor Drive they could use it well, but without obscene speed it is just outclassed.

Soak - Too gimmicky,this is just not a serious enough of a move to be considered competitive.

Acid Spray - I would say this one is definitely competitive, a great way to wear down walls or hurt switch ins. Can certainly be used on a serious competitive set.

Foul Play - This is another one of the "too situational to be competitive" moves. Can have uses, just not enough of them.

Low Sweep - If you have Technician, sure. If not, it is sorely outclassed. In general I would say no.

Entrainment - More gimmicky than Soak. This just is not a serious competitive move.

Round - Outclassed. I can't really see a use for it. Maybe in a very specific situation, but for general purposes, no.

Chip Away - Too low base power to be useful in general. Its not terrible, but Return will almost always outclass it.

Sky Drop - I would say fly is a better move. And when you are outclassed by a move that is never used, you are not competitive.

Electroweb - This one is interesting, it is hard to say with its small distribution. I feel it could have uses, but it is not amazing. I'd say maybe.

Razor Shell - In general, I would say no. But since Cloyster who gets it does not have anything better, then in that situation it would be. Depends on the situation, but it is good enough to use if no alternatives are available.

Heat Crash - See Heavy Slam

Leaf Tornado - Nope. Too weak. Too outclassed. Everyone who gets it has better options.

Techno Blast - I think it could be competitive, however, the only user has better moves for all its types but one. So I would say yes, it is, it just doesn't have a user to make it shine.

Relic Song - Does the Sleep clause effect this? If not, yes. If so, no.

Snarl - I would say yes. Lets you stop special sweepers in their tracks. Not the most powerful but certainly has its uses.

Smack Down - Nah, too much of a gimmick. It is nice, but not worth a moveslot unless your movepool is very bad.

Storm Throw - Yeah sure. I love this move. On a Bulk Up set it is great, and any fighting pokemon would love this move. May not be the best ever, but it can be really useful.

Hex - Pretty much the same thing as Venoshock.

Inferno - Are Dynamicpunch and Zap Cannon Competitive? Classify it with them.

Frost Breath - Unlike Storm Throw, this does not have 100% accuracy, and its typing is not as useful for hitting booster. Ice Beam outclasses.

Tail Slap - Yes Yes Yes. Maybe I only say this because the only user uses it so beautifully, but as far as I have seen, this is a fantastic move. Being able to break subs and do damage is invaluable and a decently powerful move with that ability is always useful.

Glaciate - Yeah, it is a stronger Icy Wind. But Icy Wind can be useful, so why not this. I'd say yes.


So in summary, I would say:

Competitive: Acid Spray, Razor Shell, Techno Blast, Relic Song, Snarl, Storm Throw, Tail Slap, Glaciate

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This thread confused me for exactly the same reason that it confused BMB. We've done this already. Please see his post quoted below. It addresses all of the discussion in this thread.

Um this was updated before Tomohawk

http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions

Just not in all the articles that relate to it.

This is the relevant bit of what's onsite for the benefit of people who can't click the link above

Very Good Move List

Very Good Move List
Acid Armor            Coil                    Facade    Horn Leech    Moonlight            Rock Slide    Switcheroo
Acid Spray            Confuse Ray    Fake Out    Howl            Morning Sun    Roost    Swords Dance
Acrobatics            Cosmic Power    Fire Blast    Hurricane    Muddy Water    Scald    Synthesis
Aerial Ace            Cotton Guard    Fire Fang    Hydro Pump    Nasty Plot            Seed Bomb    Tail Glow
Agility                  Counter                  Fire Punch    Hyper Voice    Nature Power    Seismic Toss    Tail Slap
Air Slash            Crabhammer    Flame Charge    Ice Beam    Night Daze    Shadow Ball    Taunt
Amnesia                   Cross Chop    Flamethrower    Ice Fang    Night Shade    Shadow Claw    Teeter Dance
Aqua Jet            Cross Poison    Flare Blitz    Ice Punch    Night Slash    Shadow Punch    Thrash
Aqua Tail            Crunch    Flash Cannon    Ice Shard    Outrage    Shadow Sneak    Thunder
Aromatherapy    Curse*    Focus Blast    Icicle Crash    Overheat    Sharpen    Thunder Fang
Attack Order    Dark Pulse    Focus Punch    Icicle Spear    Pain Split    Shell Smash    Thunder Wave
Aura Sphere    Defend Order    Foul Play    Ingrain    Payback    Shift Gear    Thunderbolt
Autotomize            Destiny Bond    Frost Breath    Iron Defense    Perish Song    Signal Beam    ThunderPunch
Avalanche            Detect    Frustration    Iron Head    Petal Dance    Sky Uppercut    Toxic
Barrier            Discharge    Gear Grind    Iron Tail    Poison Jab    Slack Off    Toxic Spikes
Baton Pass            Double-edge    Giga Drain    Jump Kick    Power Whip    Sleep Powder    Tri Attack
Belly Drum            Draco Meteor    Glare    Knock Off    Protect    Sleep Talk    Trick
Blaze Kick            Dragon Claw    Grass Knot    Lava Plume    Psychic    Sludge Bomb    Trick Room
Blizzard            Dragon Dance    Gravity    Leaf Blade    Psycho Shift    Sludge Wave    U-turn
Block               Dragon Pulse    Growth    Leaf Storm    Psyshock    Softboiled    Vacuum Wave
Body Slam       Dragon Rush    Gunk Shot    Leech Seed    Pursuit    Spark    Volt Switch
Bone Rush       Dragon Tail    Gyro Ball    Light Screen    Quick Attack    Spider Web    Volt Tackle
Bonemerang    Drain Punch    Hammer Arm    Lovely Kiss    Quiver Dance    Spikes    Water Spout
Bounce           Drill Peck    Haze    Low Kick    Rain Dance    Spore    Waterfall
Brave Bird       Drill Run    Head Charge    Mach Punch    Rapid Spin    Stealth Rock    Weather Ball
Brick Break      Dual Chop    Head Smash    Magic Coat    Razor Shell    Stockpile    Whirlwind
Bug Buzz         Earth Power    Heal Bell    Magnet Rise    Recover    Stone Edge    Wild Charge
Bulk Up           Earthquake    Heal Order    Mean Look    Reflect    Stored Power    Will-O-Wisp
Bullet Punch    Electro Ball    Healing Wish    Meditate    Refresh    Storm Throw    Wish
Bullet Seed      Encore    Heat Crash    Mega Kick    Rest    Stun Spore    Wood Hammer
Calm Mind       Endeavor    Heat Wave    Megahorn    Return    Substitute    Work Up
Charge Beam    Energy Ball    Heavy Slam    Memento    Reversal    Sucker Punch    X-Scissor
Circle Throw    Eruption    Hi Jump Kick    Meteor Mash    Roar    Super Fang    Yawn
Clear Smog      Extrasensory    Hidden Power    Milk Drink    Rock Blast    Superpower    Zen Headbutt
Close Combat    ExtremeSpeed    Hone Claws    Mirror Coat    Rock Polish    Surf

* Curse only counts as a Very Good Move for Pokemon that are not of the Ghost-type

As previously mentioned, there are a number of considerations that can cause the VGM list to change, depending on the situation. While the final VGM list is subject to the Topic Leader's discretion, the following rules are applicable at all times unless the Topic Leader explicitly states otherwise:

Legendary Pokemon signature moves are automatically disallowed for all CAPs.

Note that this does not include non-legendary signature moves, although these may also be frowned upon. As stated above, these moves should not be put into your movepools unless specifically allowed by the Topic Leader. A list of all moves that this rule applies to is below.

Legendary Signature Move List
Aeroblast    Fusion Bolt    Mist Ball    Secret Sword
Blue Flare    Fusion Flare    Psycho Boost    Seed Flare
Bolt Strike    Heart Swap    Psystrike    Shadow Force
Crush Grip    Ice Burn    Relic Song    Spacial Rend
Dark Void    Judgment    Roar of Time    Techno Blast
Doom Desire    Lunar Dance    Sacred Fire    V-create
Freeze Shock    Luster Purge    Sacred Sword    
Glaciate    Magma Storm    Searing Shot

Move copies count as VGMs, but only count once as Very Good Moves when more than one are present in a movepool.

As seen in the below table, there are some moves that have other moves listed next to them. These moves are 'equivalent' in terms of the Very Good Move list, which means that the moves count as 1 Very Good Move alone or together. For instance, if a movepool has both Recover and Slack Off on it, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as 2 moves toward the total move count.

Equivalent Move List
Acid Armor     Iron Defense     Barrier        
Agility     Rock Polish            
Aromatherapy     Heal Bell            
Block     Mean Look     Spider Web        
Cosmic Power     Defend Order            
Detect     Protect            
Frustration     Return            
Heal Order     Milk Drink     Recover     Slack Off     Softboiled
Howl     Meditate     Sharpen        
Moonlight     Morning Sun     Synthesis        
Roar     Whirlwind            
Switcheroo     Trick

If a VGM is completely outclassed by another VGM in the movepool, the two moves only count together as one VGM.

As above, certain moves are so much outclassed by other moves that there is literally no scenario where the lesser move would be a wiser choice over the former. For example, Tail Glow provides a three-stage boost to Special Attack, but Nasty Plot only boosts the stat two stages. If both Tail Glow and Nasty Plot are on the same movepool, they count as 1 Very Good Move, but still count as two moves towards the total move count. This rule is also not absolute; if an outclassed VGM is available with different other VGMs based on movepool illegalities, it may be required that both the outclassed VGM and the outclassing VGM count as VGMs. It must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.

Outclassed Move List
Outclassing Moves    Outclassed Moves
Attack Order    X-Scissor        
Autotomize    Agility    Rock Polish    
Bulk Up    Sharpen    Howl    Meditate
Coil    Bulk Up    Hone Claws    
Cotton Guard    Acid Armor    Iron Defense    Barrier
Explosion    Selfdestruct        
Growth    Work Up        
Head Charge    Double-Edge        
Hi Jump Kick    Jump Kick        
Hone Claws    Sharpen    Howl    Meditate
Leaf Blade    Seed Bomb        
Quiver Dance    Calm Mind        
Shift Gear    Dragon Dance    Agility    Rock Polish
Spore    Sleep Powder        
Swords Dance    Sharpen    Howl    Meditate
Tail Glow    Nasty Plot        
Work Up    Sharpen    Howl    Meditate

All moves made competitively viable by an ability are also considered VGMs.

Abilities, such as Technician and No Guard, affect the viability of specific moves that might not otherwise be considered VGMs. If a move's Base Power, accuracy, or secondary effects are made comparable to an existing Very Good Move by an ability, then that move is considered a VGM. For instance, a Pokemon with No Guard would turn Dynamicpunch into a Very Good Move through the removal of accuracy as a factor.

If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Topic Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP.
For example, a Dark-type CAP with low Special Attack and high Attack has little use for Shadow Ball, which gives almost exactly the same coverage as its STAB attacks, but without the STAB boost and off its weaker attacking stat. This move is of very little competitive use for that CAP. In this case, the Topic Leader may decide to discount this move as a VGM; however, it will still be a part of the total move count. This discounting is only for cases where it really makes or breaks a CAP, however, and doesn't give you freedom to overload a movepool with worthless VGMs.

So if any changes are made to the list in this thread, then the information on-site will need updating as well.

(On another note, may want to include moves that had mechanics changes in this thread - Bullet Seed, Jump Kick, etc.)

To address his note, the moves that had mechanic changes (ie. Bullet Seed / Jump Kick / etc.) were also already handled. You'll notice them already included in the VGM list. So yeah, since this has all been handled but tennisace didn't notice it, I'm going to close this. If some other section of the CAP site needs to be updated to these lists, they can use the Movepool Submissions page as reference.

 

[tennisace]

In my defense, neither Wyverii nor myself could find that information and it wasnt updated on site. When i get back from class i will unlock this thread and change its purpose to an update thread for the on site article which was not updated.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Yeah, not all of the articles on the site were updated, so no harm done. When I originally did all of those updates, I didn't touch the "articles", I only worked on the process event pages since those are the ones the TLs CnP from. Updating the articles is a great idea, though, so rock on.