Charm vs Will-O-Wisp

[Toothache]

A lesser used, but still very potent move is Charm. This moves reduces a single Pokemon's attack by two stages, halving any physical damage. While this move is very useful, it compares to a very similar move, Will-O-Wisp. Will-O-Wisp is a move that inflicts the Burn status on a single target, which also reduces the Attack by half.

Generally, of the two moves used, if you have the option, people would choose Will-O-Wisp. In fact, it is generally that case that Charm is almost never used, perhaps seen as a gimmick move that, since its effects are temporary until you switch, is less useful overall than WoW. However, there are situations, where Charm is more useful than Will-O-Wisp, and this brings us to the topic of discussion.

Also, the move Featherdance accomplishes the same thing as Charm, so it can also be included here too. From now on, I will refer to Charm as including Featherdance users, this increases the number of Pokemon that can use a Charm effect.

Who learns Charm

Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness greatly expanded the number of Pokemon that can learn Charm, and I will present a list here:
Venusaur
Nidoqueen
Pikachu
Raichu
Vileplume
Clefable
Persian
Wigglytuff
Rapidash
Flareon
Jolteon
Vaporeon
Snorlax
Furret
Togekiss
Granbull
Ursaring
Umbreon
Espeon
Bellossom
Donphan
Blissey
Linoone
Gardevior
Azumarill
Delcatty
Minun
Illumise
Breloom
Wobbuffet
Mr Mime
Luvdisc
Latias
Pachirisu
Lopunny
Purugly
Lumineon
Leafeon
Glaceon
Mesprit
Manaphy
Ninetales (XD)
Dugtrio (XD)
Golduck (XD)
Arcanine (XD)
Mamoswine (XD)
Houndoom (XD)
Camerupt (XD)
Walrein (XD)

As you can see, there are a large number of Pokemon that can learn Charm in various ways. I pointed out the XD ones simply because they may have a few egg move incompatibilities.

Featherdance can also be used in place of Charm, and the number of Pokemon that can use it are:

Pidgeot
Farfetch'd
Noctowl
Natu
Lugia
Altaria
Staraptor
Chatot
Honchkrow

Who learns Will-O-Wisp

Ninetales
Banette
Dusknoir
Charizard
Arcanine
Rapidash
Gengar
Weezing
Magmortar
Flareon
Moltres
Mewtwo
Mew
Typhlosion
Mismagius
Magcargo
Houndoom
Entei
Ho-oh
Blaziken
Shedinja
Sableye
Camerupt
Torkoal
Solrock
Absol
Infernape
Drifblim
Spiritomb
Rotom
Heatran
Giratina
Darkrai
Arceus

As you can see, herein lies Will-O-Wisp's first problem, since only certain types learn it (mostly Ghost and Fire, with a few rare exceptions like Solrock) and most people are familiar with WoW users, it can be predicted and prevented. Also, Charm has many more users than WoW.

What can Charm do that Will-O-Wisp cannot?

This is the important question. I'm using this thread to concentrate on the benefits of Charm, so I will be highlighting those here, since you should all be familiar with Will-O-Wisp's uses and benefits. I'll try and bring it under a few simple points:

1) Temporary changes force switches.

This is important to remember, with most (if not all) teams making use of the entry hazard moves, Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Since Charm is a temporary effect, people will seek to remove it at the earliest opportunity, which is usually achieved by switching out. Forcing more switches means your team gets more benefit out of the entry hazards, and puts more pressure on the opposing team as their effects stack up.

2) It is unexpected

Will-O-Wisp users, as we are aware, are commonly known. However, I'll bet before looking at that list above, most of you couldn't name more than, say half a dozen Charm users. Because it can be such a surprising move, it can catch a lot of opponents off guard and put you ahead. This is basic surprise factor at its finest, but like a lot of surprises can be lethal to your opponent if they don't know it is coming.

3) There are less counters to Charm

There are plenty of known ways to stop Will-O-Wisp. For one, it cannot affect a Fire type, in fact it can activate Flash Fire on the few Pokemon that do have it. Charm not only works on Fire types, but it doesn't give your opponent an advantage further down the line by boosting his Fire moves.

Charm can work on something that already has a status (including Burn), which means you can, for example, reduce the speed by paralysing and the attack with Charm. In WoW vs Thunder Wave's case, you can only do one or the other.

Guts users may predict a burn and switch into WoW, putting you at a disadvantage as they suddenly gain a 50% boost in Att from the trait. However, Guts users can be still affected by Charm, and they do not get a bonus from switching into it, expecting the trait to boost their Attack, in fact Charm is all negative for Guts users, something WoW cannot accomplish. Of course, many Guts users carry a Toxic or Flame Orb, but after one use of Charm even they will have less Attack than when they started - 150/2 = 75% damage after one Charm use).

If people have a choice, they will forego Hyper Cutter in favour of a different ability. Mold Breaker Pinsir, Sand Veil Gliscor, for example, are both used over Hyper Cutter Pokemon of the same type. Hyper Cutter users are less common, with perhaps being a good exception are among Baton Pass teams or recipients of Baton Pass chains.

Clear Body of course, is not a common trait but it seen on a lot of Pokemon in OU, including Metagross, Tentacruel, and the Regi trio. However, three of these are weak to Fire, and almost all are weak to Ground, so Charm in conjunction with Earthquake or Earth Power can cover this problem. Regice and Tentacruel do not mind having their Attack reduced anyway, neither does the rare special Metagross, if you can somehow find a way around their trait (Skill Swap/Gastro Acid?)

The move Mist prevents stat losses for 5 turns, and can be used to prevent Charm from working. This is a never-used move, but it is included for completeness, since it is technically a Charm counter. If the opponent is holding a White Herb, it can prevent the use of Charm once.

While burn can be removed, by using Heal Bell, Rest, Aromatherapy and so on, even with traits like Shed Skin, Charm cannot be removed without switching, unless using the move Haze. Charm also has the move advantage over Curse, Howl and Dragon Dance, since it overpowers these +1 Attack moves with a -2 effect, making it win out in the long term.

4) It can be used more than once

Will-O-Wisp causes normal Burn, which is half damage. One of the advantages of Charm, is that it can be used more than once if the Attack reduction isn't low enough to cause the opponent a problem (although in the majority of physical attacker's cases it will be enough to only need to use Charm once). If you need to protect another Pokemon on your team, perhaps reducing the Attack further to -4 or even -6 can either force a switch, or if that is not possible, making it harmless enough that you can bring something else in. Charm is better than Memento too, in that you don't need to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to use it, it can be used multiple times during a match by the same Pokemon, giving it more versatility.

5) More reliable move.

Will-O-Wisp is a move with 15 base PP, max of 24, and an accuracy of 75%. This means it can and will miss, sometimes being crucial for the match. Charm however has 20 base PP, max of 32 and an accuracy of 100%. This means it will always affect the opponent (unless immune from Hyper Cutter/Clear Body), unlike WoW which can miss, and has more PP so can be used more often in the case of a long drawn out match. Swords Dance has 30 base PP, 48 max, so in the case of Charm vs Swords Dance, SD will win out, but this is also the case with SD vs WoW anyway.

So, which is better - Charm or Will-O-Wisp? Clearly, its hard to call, given both moves have advantages and disadvantages that one can cover where as the other might not. The temporary nature of Charm may not be appealing to some, but the fact that it is more reliable and affects a wider variety of opposing Pokemon, as well as having a larger list of users, give it more versatility. I'm on the fence, as I can see the use of Charm as well as WoW, but what do you all think?

 

[Juuka]

Charm can also stall out Curse and Dragon Dance, which is a plus. Will-o-wisp can be removed using Rest or something while Charm can beat most Pokemon I on 1. I used to use Charm Vaporeon in Advance and it worked pretty well against Salamence/Snorlax/etc. and had the bonus of causing switches.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't think clerics should be listed as Will-o-Wisp counters, because they too require switching out, and they need a cleric in the first place, which makes it preferable to Charm in that matter.

I still prefer Will-o-Wisp because it's permanent. If you manage to Charm a physical attacker, all it has to do is switch out and come back in later, and you've lost your surprise. If you get a Will-o-Wisp on said attacker, it will be permanently crippled unless they carry a cleric or has Rest, and neither is particularly likely.

If the choice is between crippling a physical attacker or racking up some damage with switches, I know what I'm choosing.

 

[Toothache]

Lets take another situation then. Stallrein, which you know gets 32 turns of stalling with Protect/Sub. Now, suppose it can Charm a physical attacker, thus giving it more stalling power since they can't now break his Subs?

As for switching out, that gives you one less physical attacker to worry about. Even if it can come back in later, you can always apply a different status (paralysis) and if the Attack is still a threat, Charm it too.

 

[ANinyMouse]

No one's even mentioned the obvious advantage Will-o'-Wisp has in that it causes a constant flow of damage by itself.

Lets take another situation then. Stallrein, which you know gets 32 turns of stalling with Protect/Sub. Now, suppose it can Charm a physical attacker, thus giving it more stalling power since they can't now break his Subs?

As for switching out, that gives you one less physical attacker to worry about. Even if it can come back in later, you can always apply a different status (paralysis) and if the Attack is still a threat, Charm it too.

Wouldn't you have to drop either Roar or your attack move to pick up Charm? Either way, you're losing a chance to cause damage and gaining one more way to be shut down by Taunt...

 

[DDyarados]

No one's even mentioned the obvious advantage Will-o'-Wisp has in that it causes a constant flow of damage by itself.

That's true, and that's been the reason why I love burn. If say, you lose your garchomp counter (assuming you have one..>_>) but you still manage to burn it. While it can negate the effects of burn after 1 SD, it will take at least 25% damage from burn to get back to 100% attack. And then, to get into sweeping range, it needs to SD again, bringing its health down to a maximum of 62.5%, which brings it in killing range. Charm can't do that.

Wouldn't you have to drop either Roar or your attack move to pick up Charm? Either way, you're losing a chance to cause damage and gaining one more way to be shut down by Taunt...

Roar isn't an attack and is still shut down by taunt. :P

 

[Kittymew]

Agreed, on Stallrein, Charm can be favourable to Roar as it will largely still force a switch with similar timing (aside from hail damage). Obviously your attacking move is a bit too important to pass up.

 

[cim]

Cool thread, Toothache!

Charm is a fun move on Blissey. Charm on the switch buys you a free turn to do fun stuff like set up a Light Screen or buy a free switch in.

You can also use Charm to outstall a Swords Dancer as Charm has more PP IIRC, much like Growl in GSC.

 

[Wakalord]

I love Charm on Blissey and Umbreon...

I don't think one is better than the other, they both have ups and downs.

Charm can hit Heatran and Arcanine, but the latter(who is rarely seen) is the only one who will be negatively affected by it. Hitting Heracross and Machamp is great though.

IMO Charm causes more switches, which can lead to more passive damage and a free turn to do whatever.

WoW is obviously permanent, excluding Clerics, and the passive damage is great. Too bad it can't hit Infernape >_<

 

[Kid Icarus]

Just a note: In a way, WoW can also cause passive damage, via burn damage and the switching in of clerics.

Both have their pros and cons, and each are pretty equal when weighed, so it's hard to make a choice between the two. I guess some people could argue WoW just looks and sounds more masculine? XD

EDIT: Mr. E makes a good point. Not many Pokemon can learn both, so you either have one and not the other for most cases.

 

[Mr.E]

What can Charm do that Will-O-Wisp cannot?

This is the important question.

The more important question is: Who can learn both Charm/FD and WoW?

The answer is... four pokémon, Gardevoir/Gallade, Rapidash, Flareon, plus a few more Fire-types added through XD. Considering the attack nature of Gallade, who usually goes for T-Wave or especially Hypnosis first if it chooses to even use status moves, and the dubious OU viability of the Fires in general, Gardevoir is the only one that has much of a decision to make.

Gardevoir's main STAB attack is resisted by Heatran and it opts for WoW a little more often than Gallade (who punches Heatran in the mouth anyway), so Charm could be a good alternative for its Attack-lowering capabilities and even be compatible with Hypnosis/T-Wave if yo opt for a support Gardevoir. (Hypnosis/T-Wave, Charm, Psychic, filler.)

Beyond that, the comparison is irrelevant. It's not merely a choice between Charm or WoW, it's a choice between which pokémon I'm putting on my team and the minimal functional difference between the two attacks is the last thing I'm going to concern myself with when comparing different pokémon (unless I'm intent on running TSpikes).

 

[ANinyMouse]

Roar isn't an attack and is still shut down by taunt. :P

Yeah, that sentence came out kinda ambiguous. What I meant was that I felt both Roar and your attack (say, Surf) were both awfully important to Stallrein, it's Roar even more so. Without Roar, yes, you can't abuse Stealth Rock, but you also let things like Raikou come in relatively unscathed and proceed to set up. That means that the only viable option to drop in favor of Charm would be Surf...

...which opens you up to being shut down by Taunt.

So, no, I don't think Charm works on Stallrein specifically. Walrein in general? Sure, why not?

 

[Shelcario]

In my opinion I'm somewhat tied between Charm and Will-o-wisp's uses as Charm may lower the opponent's atk. 2 stages but all the opponent has to do is switch out to get rid of it but as with Will-o-wisp if you manage to burn the opponent then you will have successfully crippled one of their pokes and another benefit to will-o-wisp is that it also causes damage which charm cannot. Unless you look at it hypothetically charm can cause damage to your team because you have to risk a switch which could very well be a crucial point in the match which decides whether you win or lose. If it were my decision I would probably go with Charm because there isn't many counters to it except switching, hyper cutters and clear bodied pokemon. This is just my opinion on the whole matter.

EDIT: Oh also forgot two other counters to Charm that were brought up and those are Roar and Taunt.

 

[Banana292]

Charm piles up. WoW doesn't. An example of what I mean is my gallade. Charm, T-wave, Close Combat, Night slash.

How would you like to cancel out that annoying DD salamence just got, then stop it touching you? With WoW, it's only burned. That being said, Burn then scary face does the same, although scary face doesn't make you fail 25% of the time.

But the thing is, burn is good for special sweepers like Yanmega because it decreases their lifespan. Nobody would charm a special yanmega. This alone for me makes me think WoW is a better choice.


Going against this, I've used Featherdance Xatu in UU to much success [a few times]. The thunderwave is usually good opportunity to bring in a burned swellow, to which is met with SR and featherdance. I can say that it is a good move for situations like that, but I can't help feel it's a wee bit too situational. There is a majority of pokes who fare better being charmed than burned. In my opinion:

WoW > Charm/FeatherDance

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

psych up is a charm counter, since they'll just copy your +0 to replace their -2 etc =]

 

[blasphemy1]

Charm is an excellent move for Spike teams, but I prefer Will-o-Wisp for making that damn Metagross pay. Charm is fun for Umbreon and Blissey, the two pokes I would use it on, simply because Guts abusers love switching into them as most are fighting types. However, when you look at what learns Will-o-Wisp and what learns Charm, typically WoWers are a bit more sturdy, and this is why it is preferred, as walls typically execute these moves.

 

[Pimplup]

Charm is great for an Entry Hazards team, and I like you, am on the fence... I mean Charm may cause switches and allows you to keep subs up longer, and outstall DD and Guts users, but WoW, provides a 12% chip off every turn, a welcome side-effect. I don't know, I'm really on the fence here, but you have made me view Charm as a totally different attack, thank you for opening my eyes Toothache:)!!

 

[obi]

The choice between Will-O-Wisp and Charm for general use is really no contest. Will-O-Wisp is far superior. Use Charm: when they come back in, you have to Charm again. Use Will-O-Wisp: they are permanently crippled.

As Mr.E was saying, few Pokemon learn both. Gardevoir really doesn't care about the Will-O-Wisp immunities. Every Pokemon that is boosted by Will-O-Wisp is destroyed by Psychic, except those Pokemon that are almost 100% special (like Houndoom and Heatran).

Just about the only time I'd even consider Charm is if I had another status that I wanted more.

 

[UltimoVenusaur]

It's a great PHazing move.

 

[Farewell]

*Mention the ability "Water Veil", since you included Clear Body, Shed Skin, Flash Fire, Guts, include Water Veil as it prevents burn and further strengthens your point.

Granted only Seaking/Wailord have it but I have seen Scarf/Band Wailords/Curse Wailords abuse Water Veil (since its other ability Oblivious sucks) in UU matches.

Even if it is a Special Attacker, simply switching it in can be as useful as switching in a Fire type.


I have also seen the rare Flail Seaking abuse Water Veil since it prevents residual damage from Burn, and since Sandstorm/Hail is never seen in UU, Seaking would only take residual damage from either Leech Seed or Toxic, making it quite a decent Flailer. (Also it wont need Swift Swim since it can opt for Salac Berry over Liechi Berry, or if it uses Agility).

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Charm wins hands down because of a few things:

1.) Doesn't miss
2.) Doesn't activate Guts
3.) Doesn't get absorbed by Flash Fire
4.) Can be stacked with other status moves, which is helpful if you like dropping down Toxic Spikes or use lots of Thunderwave support.

Just because Burn causes a small DoT and a permanent attack reduction doesn't really give WoW too much footing compared to the awesomeness that is Charm. The fact it doesn't miss and doesn't activate Guts is so damn sexy.

 

[jujuomi]

I remember bringing up the advatages of charm over w-o-w in the look at what i bred thread when you were telling us about your XD vulpix results. Hope It helped in the making of this thread.


Personally I had used charm plenty of times before this thread.I fully support charm. I mostly use it on things with minor defense, minun for example. (I played a gimmicky defensive minun. And it worked out great.

 

[ViVi]

I think its obvious that WoW ultimatly has more uses, but Charm is certainly a viable option, I like using it on Vaporeon, which enables it too load up on SpDef and still take some Physical hits.

 

[TVboyCanti]

While burn can be removed, by using Heal Bell, Rest, Aromatherapy and so on, even with traits like Shed Skin, Charm cannot be removed without switching, unless using the move Haze. Charm also has the move advantage over Curse, Howl and Dragon Dance, since it overpowers these +1 Attack moves with a -2 effect, making it win out in the long term.

To be fair, Swords Dance does remove the effect of charm, and if the Dancer has substitute or pressure (ie weavile), you can't outstall it.

Good essay btw.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Charm is definitely a decent option because it can work around other status moves, including your own Toxic spikes. It does basically the same thing but..more short term than long term. Still a great and underrated move.