Pokémon Charizard

Which one these MEvos will be OU in your opinion?


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Dragons will unfortunately stop your sweep regardless. Dragon Pulse doesn't even have enough power in it to OHKO 4 HP/0 Sp Def Garchomp, nevermind stuff like Goodra, Dragonite, or even the Lati Twins, who will all punch your face in unless you switch out immediately (or Thunder Wave you into uselessness in the case of Dragonite).

At the very least you can plow through TTar and Heatran in one hit (outside Sp def variants, in which case you know they're not scarfed and can take another shot at them for the KO) rather than just adding them to your list of CharY checks/counters. Dragon Pulse doesn't really solve a lot of anything unless your opponent makes some really bad choices and predictions.

As an aside, Focus Blast does better neutral damage to incoming Politoed as well. I can understand your aversion to resting so much on such an inaccurate move though.

One thing that bothers me more is why Flame Charge is even an option over Tailwind. The damage you get from Flame Charge is negligible and it only raises your speed by one stage, leaving you open to be checked 102+ Scarfers. Tailwind not only increases your speed by 2 stages and allows you to beat 102+ base speed Scarfers, but allows your teammates to benefit from it as well. A slower but more powerful sweeper will love you forever for a +2 speed boost, even if it's only for three turns.

I suppose it's because Zard can't get Tailwind until Dec 25th though.
Like people said, Tailwind doesn't last long enough.

On top of that, Flame Charge deals a reasonable amount of damage from a 104 base attack stat with sun and STAB. It's not a main coverage move, but if you are going to boost your speed, you might as well do some damage. You might break a sash/sturdy/multiscale. Or add the bit of damage you need to OHKO.

As for Focus Blast, no it's not necessary, but the team I'm using doesn't have the easiest time with Heatran. Also, Heatran is Zard Y's biggest enemy only because the massive amount of damage it could do with Fire Blast is a liability as long as Heatran could switch in.

I was thinking about Dragon Pulse, and I realized it's a horrible option unless you are having a really hard time dealing with Dragon types. The reason for this is that Sun+STAB 1/2x resisted Fire Blast outdamages any non-Sun+STAB boosted neutral move. So even against a rock type, it's better to use Fire Blast than Dragon Pulse. Coverage moves on Zard Y are for SE coverage.

Is Flame Charge worth the loss of Roost? Roost provides fantastic recovery.

I've been playing:
Charizard -Y
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4Def/252SpA/252Spe
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost

So far though Dragon Pulse hasn't done much good for me, so I'm thinking of swapping back to Focus Blast which had been my original plan. All that said, Flame Charge for Roost never crossed my mind. I just don't know if its worth it.

Also, regarding Scizor as a Defog partner, I'm struggling with that. I feel like with Defog Scizor really needs 5 move slots. I guess that's a question for the Scizor thread though.
I ran Roost for a while on showdown, and it works great. The problem though is that you have to worry about keeping Sticky Web up on your opponents side unless you want to keep switching out. And since you want to also get rid of SR, Defog is a pain to use, and Rapid Spin is your better option. So your team is more limited and you can be spinblocked. Like I said, you WILL pull off a Flame Charge boost most of the time. Unless you are switching into a counter like Terrakion or a wall like Blissey, your opponent is going to want to switch. Zard Y is packing 6 resistances, and immunity, and effectively only 2 weaknesses since Drought makes Zard Y water neutral. Oh yeah, and one of those weaknesses, Electric, likely won't kill you with your base 115 Sp. Def. You also have a move that can 2HKO most special walls not named Blissey.

As for Dragon Dance on Zard Y, I don't see much of a point. Charizard Y can already break walls not named Blissey, Chansey or Vaporeon. And running DD means you need to use a -Def or -Sp. Def nature, which isn't good either. Heatran sometimes packs a balloon, so EQ isn't the best option, and it just simply isn't worth it when you have a base 159 Sp. Atk stat to work with.
 
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thats the thing i guess. its only 3 turns, Which means the Last Turn of Sun could be will be used to set Tailwind up Again, when you could get one final hit off on a switch. Flame Charge also gives ZardY a Mixed option as well as a boost, Even if it sucks. still it IS Sun Boosted. its probably pitiful damage (Haven't calced) but the blobs at least would have to think twice about switching in....kinda. Not really because of that HP.Honestly i'm still on the fence on how to boost ZardY. As you said Flame Charge sucks. Tailwind has to be set up repeatedly, which also stings. however i can see its viability, mainly because things that would switch in on ZardY need to be taken care of or active when it comes in. Politoed and Friends stop its sweep by cutting its weather, with its best check, Solarbeam being Useless along with the fact he's about to be smacked with Rain Boosted Water moves, Or statused in Hippowdon's case (Hail isn't an Issue obviously) or phased or..well as we know it doesn't like these guys. I'd say Tyranitar is its worst enemy. The Worst Heatran can do is phase. Tyranitar, Running Assualt Vest in Sand could probably Tank a focus Blast (Not well, it won't do much else after killing Zard) and smack it with a Stone Edge. I don't know the calcs but That thing is so monstrous i wouldn't doubt it.

And as much as i hate Focus Miss, your right i guess. you know if Dragon Pulse hadn't been nerfed i'd say it would have had a shot at Dealing with them, (Mainly Latios and Dnite with multiscale broken. And Chomp Obviously) but hypothetical theories will get us nowhere.

I'm think as i'm typing so this probably all sounds horrible haha. but As good as ZardY looks, ZardX looks better (Although the Flame Charge Arguement stands for DD, it needs 2, but that Attk Boost helps. alot) which is a blessing in disguise for ZardY. ZardX beats TTar not Carrying Assault Vest or Scarf (Possibly with both) and Heatran Minus Balloon (Is that still a thing? i'd assume so) meaning their less likely to switch in. so ZardY will get its chance to shine. Zard is pretty much uncounterable until you know what Mega your dealing with. Or it switches in with Rocks up
Tailwind does only last for a set number of turns, but as a Mega Charizard if you are not switched out or dead in 4 turns, you have either A). won the game or B). put your opponent at a 3-4 Pokemon deficit, which is something most opponents are unlikely to come back from and have for all intents and purposes probably won the game anyway unless your opponent is a Pokemon genius, you really goof up hard somewhere, or if you yourself were down 3+ Pokemon. On the flip side, if you have to switch out because of a counter, allow me to present to you this hypothetical scenario:

Let's say you just brought in your MegaZard in on something like a Ferrothorn. Because your opponent already knows you have a MegaZardY, he switches out for his Tyranitar. I could Focus Blast, but what if I don't feel comfortable about my chances of hitting (or what if I elect to carry Dragon Pulse instead, because some people will elect to do that)? I use Tailwind on the switch in. Turn 2, I have 4 turns of Tailwind left. I switch to my Garchomp as he Stone Edges, taking pittance damage. Turn 3, 3 turns of Tailwind left. No TTar is going to stay in on a Garchomp, so he switches. I set up Swords Dance as he brings something out. On turn 2, with 2 turns of Tailwind left, I have a +2/+2 Garchomp out on the field. I can't think of many Pokemon that can take hits from that kind of monster (Togekiss, but even then you can run Stone Edge or Rock Slide over Fire Fang/Blast). In two turns, you can take out at least 2 Pokemon and already put yourself at a pretty decent advantage even if your Tailwind will peter out in two turns and they bring in something to check your +2 Chomp.

Now this is a hypothetical. I'm not saying things will work out this well in all matches - there's so many variables in matches that the possibility of what could transpire in a match in mind blowing. I just wanted to throw out a potential opportunity to net you a significant advantage in the match using Tailwind from even ground which wouldn't have been possible with Flame Charge. Your counterpoint is still true, Flame Charge will allow Zard Y to sweep through more than 4 members of a players team, but to that I present the argument in my first paragraph.

I didn't however think of Flame Charge being used against Blissey. But I did run the damage calcs and the results aren't particularly impressive.

0 Attack neutral Nature Mega Charizard vs 0 HP/252 Def Calm Blissey (as per the standard on the Smogon page): 167.25-194.74 (A 3-4 Hit KO with Stealth Rocks up, otherwise a solid 4 hit KO no matter what)

Compared to Fire Blast's damage:

252 Special Attack +Nature Mega Charizard vs 0 HP/252 Sp Def Calm Blissey: 202.39-238.11 (a 3-Hit KO regardless of Rocks)

Now with Flame Charge you also get added utility of getting the +1 speed boost, but if you stay in 3-4 turns necessary to KO Blissey, you're just getting to get Thunder Waved. Fire Blast doesn't deal with Blissey all that much better, so a switch will be necessary unless Blissey has taken some prior damage.

I don't say this to discredit Zard Y. In fact I personally love Zard Y more than Zard X and will be using it on my team. But it can't sweep, not in the way traditional sweepers can. Zard X is much better for this as you've said. Zard Y will be one hell of a wallbreaker though, Flame Charge, Tailwind, Roost, or otherwise.

I like Flame Charge on Y simply because it's a lasting charge, and unless we find a 100+ scarfer, it's going to outspeed most things.

It's not always the best option to scarf things, either.
Off the top of my head, I can think of Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Gengar, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Thundrus-T, and Scarf Garchomp which are all over base 100 and have been known to sport Choice Scarves every now and again. I dunno what the meta for Gen 6 will bring (such as Gengar possibly forgoing every item for Gengarite since its Mega Evolution is so powerful), but 101+ Scarfers exist and are more common than you'd think.

EDIT: In response to MrGlass, I also haven't thought about the possibility of using it to break sashes/multiscale. I know breaking multiscale with it probably won't be of much use because Dragonite is the only Multiscale user and you still can't 1HKO Dragonite after breaking Multiscale and it will just Thunder Wave or kill you outright. Breaking a Sash or Sturdy however is pretty nice. I was going to use Roost since Tailwind doesn't come out till the 25th, but you've convinced me to at least give Flame Charge a chance.
 
Oh yeah, there's another benefit from Flame Charge. It's a Fire STAB Move that's 100% accurate. So if you only need to do a bit of damage to KO something weak to fire, it's a less risky option than Fire Blast, and you get a nice speed boost.
 
I was wondering if this was a good move set, I really don't want to keep using Flare Blitz due to the hp loss. What do you guys think?

CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP

Swords Dance
Flame Charge
Dragon Claw
Earth Quake
 
I was wondering if this was a good move set, I really don't want to keep using Flare Blitz due to the hp loss. What do you guys think?

CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP

Swords Dance
Flame Charge
Dragon Claw
Earth Quake
I haven't tried Zard Y, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd replace Flame Charge with Fire Punch and Swords Dance with Dragon Dance. Unless you are planning on running Sticky Web on your team, in which case, SD isn't a bad idea.
 
I haven't tried Zard Y, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd replace Flame Charge with Fire Punch and Swords Dance with Dragon Dance. Unless you are planning on running Sticky Web on your team, in which case, SD isn't a bad idea.
I was thinking swords dance first turn, for the att boost, then I flame charge for the speed boost on the second turn. I was thinking that or if I should stick to dragon dance and then fire punch. Which do you think would be better for damage output?
 
Some calcs for CharX (magnet/charcoal = tough claws boost)

+1 252+ Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Magnet (custom) ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 388-458 (96.03 - 113.36%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
---+1 252+ Atk Magnet (custom) ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 388-458 (96.03 - 113.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Charcoal (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 233-274 (57.67 - 67.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Magnet (custom) ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 154-182 (47.67 - 56.34%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO
---+1 252+ Atk Magnet (custom) ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 154-182 (47.67 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Magnet (custom) ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 153-180 (39.74 - 46.75%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Both moves give perfect coverage along fire and dragon. EQ is not that much stronger due to no tough claws boost. I'd say that thunderpunch is the preferred choice since it hits Bulky waters the hardest and EQ coverage is mostly redundant with Flare Blitz, though it does help on stuff like Tyranitar.

Also, it's interesting to note that CharX under sun after a DD can OHKO pretty much the whole OU tier except for Vaporeon and Jellicent (that can't do anything in return). It does need EQ for Tyranitar and TP for Gyarados though.


+1 252+ Atk Charcoal (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon in sun: 373-441 (88.8 - 105%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Charcoal (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T in sun: 355-418 (93.17 - 109.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Flame Charge is almost needed for Y. Not as big of a risk as Fire Blast, and if your speed remains at 100, anything named Garchomp, Keldeo, Terrakion, or Latios can come in and wreck you.
 
Yes Charizard X now has the oh so welcome secondary dragon type but you still have to get on the field to mega evolve so you are still vulnerable to SR unless that is you lead with it or there are not SR on the field...And here is my point.. leading with it..I think if you are going to lead with it why not choose Charizard Y over it? You have drought and with the raw power that Charizard y possess it can pierce through teams with ease much like a suicide lead... but if you are not going to lead with it or you are not going using a sun team you are going to ofc prefer the Charizard X which not only has the dragon type now but also it has access to a decent ability and can function either as mixed or pure physical attacker.. :)
 
I suppose I could compare Mega Charizard X to Volcarona. Both have a x4 SR Weakness (Until Charizard goes X, he's still incredibly sad about those Rocks, while Y is still sad about Rocks regardless.), both have great Boosting moves in Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance respectively, and the two have similiar defenses in a specific stat, Zard X possessing the more Physically oriented defense, while Volcarona possessing the more Specially oriented defense, also the two share the same base speed, both share a Ground and Rock Weakness and so on. Basically, all the problems Volcarona had could be applied to the MegaZards, and as such, they have to be used wisely. Volcarona has the ability to be destructive if it gets going, I feel the same can be applied to Zard X and if it gets a Dragon Dance off. Basically at the end of the day, I see Zard X having more potential power then Zard Y if it can get off a Dragon Dance, as Zard Y possesses no notable Special boosting moves to take use of, while Zard Y has more immediate power, but both have to be used wisely in order to truly shine.
 
I suppose I could compare Mega Charizard X to Volcarona. Both have a x4 SR Weakness (Until Charizard goes X, he's still incredibly sad about those Rocks, while Y is still sad about Rocks regardless.), both have great Boosting moves in Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance respectively, and the two have similiar defenses in a specific stat, Zard X possessing the more Physically oriented defense, while Volcarona possessing the more Specially oriented defense, also the two share the same base speed, both share a Ground and Rock Weakness and so on. Basically, all the problems Volcarona had could be applied to the MegaZards, and as such, they have to be used wisely. Volcarona has the ability to be destructive if it gets going, I feel the same can be applied to Zard X and if it gets a Dragon Dance off. Basically at the end of the day, I see Zard X having more potential power then Zard Y if it can get off a Dragon Dance, as Zard Y possesses no notable Special boosting moves to take use of, while Zard Y has more immediate power, but both have to be used wisely in order to truly shine.
I agree in some degree but Volcarona is no weak to ground type because of that secondary Bug typing..Also i agree with Charizard Y not having any boosting moves but I think drought makes up for it :)
 
Also, why don't work with MegarizardY's physical side?

104 is still respectable and EQ basically hits more checks and counters harder than Focus Miss.
 
I agree in some degree but Volcarona is no weak to ground type because of that secondary Bug typing..Also i agree with Charizard Y not having any boosting moves but I think drought makes up for it :)
The problem is Drought only increases the power of Fire moves, which isn't always what you need at the time.

And unless your physical moves are Fire, Char Y's physical game is just kinda average.
 
The problem is Drought only increases the power of Fire moves, which isn't always what you need at the time.

And unless your physical moves are Fire, Char Y's physical game is just kinda average.
Yes I know drought powers up only fire type moves but it provides great team support with pokes that either have Chlorophyll+Growth Combo or Solar Power..Even if weather now is kind nerfed it is still a great strategy! :)
 
Yes I know drought powers up only fire type moves but it provides great team support with pokes that either have Chlorophyll+Growth Combo or Solar Power..Even if weather now is kind nerfed it is still a great strategy! :)
Yeah, but since Charizard Y can't hold a Heat Rock, you have only 5 turns to abuse it, which usually isn't enough to get a decent sweep going, considering one of those turns has to be spent switching out, and yet another has to be spent setting up.

So I was thinking about Charizard Y, and so far, I can only say that his biggest advantage is the fact that most people will see you have a Charizard on your team and think "Damn, it's Charizard X," but the more I think about it, the more my question becomes "what specifically can Charizard Y do that Charizard X can't?" Charizard Y can support his team with Drought, but as I mentioned before, not well. Despite CharX being mostly physical and CharY being mostly special, they both share similar checks and counters, and CharX can actually get past the biggest of them, Heatran, with Earthquake (CharY can run Earthquake too, I guess, but he doesn't like losing the move slot to it). About the only advantage I can think CharY has is it's ability to use Solar Beam to smack around water types that could possibly give CharX some trouble, but it's not STAB and even with CharY's ability, he's still prone to the likes of Tyranitar switching in and ruining his fun.

So, CharY; can it take advantage of the fact most people will be expecting CharX? Is this enough reason to use it?
 
Another key thing about Char X carrying EQ is Aegislash. You avoid the minus 2, and the mindgames by having EQ. it's always going to OHKO(boosted, or unboosted) when it's in offensive stance, and 81.64% chance to 2HKO it in defensive stance with SR.

generally speaking, I've found Rotom-W to help with the counters, and checks that Char X has.
 
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Fire Blast does a fawkton of damage to everything when the sun is up, even to 'Mons that resist it?
Based on the Assault Vests page, if Tyranitar is in it's Sand, it can tank even a Focus Blast from Zard Y, so if it can tank a x4 Focus Blast, then it's probably gonna be able to tank a Fire Blast, at least in Sand. Not sure if it'd be able to live a Fire Blast in Sun, but if Tyranitar gets a free switch in I can see Assault Vest Tytanitar being one of the hard counters to Y.

As for Charizard Y being used over X because of Suprise Value, that can only work once, so you have to be careful when you do it, but I can see it working if done well, such as frying a Pokemon that used Earthquake hoping it'd Mega Evolve into X, this would've been better if Zard Y had access to a decent Sp. Attack boosting move, and the fact that when it comes to Zard prediction, Rocks are still reliable, as it hits all three for SE Damage, so I suppose it could work it just has to be done at the right time.
 
Based on the Assault Vests page, if Tyranitar is in it's Sand, it can tank even a Focus Blast from Zard Y, so if it can tank a x4 Focus Blast, then it's probably gonna be able to tank a Fire Blast, at least in Sand. Not sure if it'd be able to live a Fire Blast in Sun, but if Tyranitar gets a free switch in I can see Assault Vest Tytanitar being one of the hard counters to Y.
AV TTar? Didn't know that, but it makes sense when you figure in TTar's stats, abilities, and an item like Assault Vest. And yeah, if it can resist x4 Focus Blast it can resist sun-boosted Fire Blast with STAB.

If you look back towards the beginning of this thread, I agree that ZardX is overall a better option to Y. X is just a much more rounded mon, where Y is (IMO) a more specialized variant. ZardY can break walls and nuke things into Oblivion, but on paper it looks very easy to stop. Plus with Stealth Rock being everyone's favorite move, it won't be alive very long. I've not bothered to play with one yet, and I just traded my Y Megastone away and eventually will buy another.

ZardY definitely has it's merits/uses, but it's not going to last very long in any game. If a ZardY manages to stay out for more than a few turns, the games over (you won, you've probably killed +3 mons), unless your opponent gets obscenely lucky,
 
Yeah, but since Charizard Y can't hold a Heat Rock, you have only 5 turns to abuse it, which usually isn't enough to get a decent sweep going, considering one of those turns has to be spent switching out, and yet another has to be spent setting up.

So I was thinking about Charizard Y, and so far, I can only say that his biggest advantage is the fact that most people will see you have a Charizard on your team and think "Damn, it's Charizard X," but the more I think about it, the more my question becomes "what specifically can Charizard Y do that Charizard X can't?" Charizard Y can support his team with Drought, but as I mentioned before, not well. Despite CharX being mostly physical and CharY being mostly special, they both share similar checks and counters, and CharX can actually get past the biggest of them, Heatran, with Earthquake (CharY can run Earthquake too, I guess, but he doesn't like losing the move slot to it). About the only advantage I can think CharY has is it's ability to use Solar Beam to smack around water types that could possibly give CharX some trouble, but it's not STAB and even with CharY's ability, he's still prone to the likes of Tyranitar switching in and ruining his fun.

So, CharY; can it take advantage of the fact most people will be expecting CharX? Is this enough reason to use it?
I totally agree with this but I must say that you are wrong that CharX is physically orientated...It has 130 base attack and sp attack :) So you can easily use a really effective mixed set! :)
 
AV TTar? Didn't know that, but it makes sense when you figure in TTar's stats, abilities, and an item like Assault Vest. And yeah, if it can resist x4 Focus Blast it can resist sun-boosted Fire Blast with STAB.

If you look back towards the beginning of this thread, I agree that ZardX is overall a better option to Y. X is just a much more rounded mon, where Y is (IMO) a more specialized variant. ZardY can break walls and nuke things into Oblivion, but on paper it looks very easy to stop. Plus with Stealth Rock being everyone's favorite move, it won't be alive very long. I've not bothered to play with one yet, and I just traded my Y Megastone away and eventually will buy another.

ZardY definitely has it's merits/uses, but it's not going to last very long in any game. If a ZardY manages to stay out for more than a few turns, the games over (you won, you've probably killed +3 mons), unless your opponent gets obscenely lucky,
I think you are underestimating Zard Y. Not a lot of things really wall it, but more importantly, it really only has 1 weakness to worry about. It can tank an electric attack and the sun makes water neutral. You have Blissey, Chansey, and bulky Dragon types that really stop it. But that's it, and Dragons have to be weary of an HP Ice or Dragon Pulse set. Once you get your first flame charge off you can get off a reasonable sweep before switching out.

Crobat is a fantastic partner to Zard Y, because it can Defog, Hypnotize, and U-Turn into Charizard, essentially giving you momentum.
 
Charizard @ CharizarditeY
Ability: Solar Power
Nature: Modest / Timid
EVs: 252 SPA /252 Spe / 4HP

Fire Blast
Solar Beam
Focus Blast
Roost/Tailwind

Basically, the set can either act as a sun sweeper without evolving (Charizard with solar power hits harder than Mega Zard Y with sp boost) Or to bring up sunshine when need, I recommend using roost as zard has a shit ton of resists and often finds it easy. Any team mate with defog is nice as this generation is more difficult than ever to pull off a rapid spin due to the spam of ghosts. Dual sun with nintales is very nice and is a bitch to play against if the opponent lacks weather. Megazard Y is very nice as it pretty much ebats all other inducers providing they are non scarfed or pack other items which can cock block you such as chople. But yeah played afew games with this using a defog skarmory and ninetales, it often gets afew koes. Its nice to play this set well though, be mindful the moment you evolve sun is instantly summoned, so you can often sack charizard to something faster, evolve it before it dies and pave the way for a sun sweeper or neutralise opposing weather. The key to this set is timing the evolution properly. Play it well and it will win you many matches.
 
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