Carracosta Discussion

[skylight]

Pretty much making this due to Carracosta receiving a lot of discussion in this forum (and to make sure it stays out of the viability thread, and generates discussion here instead!)

Carracosta

74 / 108 / 133 / 83 / 65 / 32

Carracosta's best roles are either being a tank, or sweeping with Shell Smash.

Personally I find that Carracosta can perform really well in the metagame. Once it gets one SS up, it becomes a scary force. However, I feel that the 32 base Speed is too low, and it forces Carracosta to run a Jolly nature or rely on Aqua Jet hitting hard enough to outspeed a lot of the faster metagame after SS. Despite that though, Carracosta can take out entire teams if you're unprepared and for the most part its speed issues are made up for with Shell Smash, or its bulk allowing you to have a safe switch in for things like Swellow or other Normal-types found in NU.

With that said, how viable do you think Carracosta is in the current metagame? Which sets do you find most effective on it? What do you think hinders it the most? Do you think it has enough opportunities to set up in this meta for SS sets? Do you think it's outclassed by anything? Why? What have your experiences been with it?

Discuss! Feel free to discuss anything else Carracosta-related here, too, other than its ranking in the viability thread~​

 

[Aasgier]

Well, the biggest problem with Carracosta for me is that it always failed me. It is good (somehow?), since some of the best NU players are adamant about its position in S-rank. But yet, yet, I used it in three teams ("it should work"), and twice it was replaced by Samurott (SmashCosta both times) and the third time (Tank Carracosta) was replaced by Golem, which all performed better than Carracosta ever did on those teams.

Oh wait, forgot my expiriments with Carracosta to support Leavanny as I attempted to build a team around the latter, but that team failed altogether, as only Leavanny itself and Gardevoir did anything useful.

From my experience as well as in theory, Smash Carracosta can't set up easily and if it runs a Life Orb it loses to anything that runs Substitute. If it does not run a Life Orb, it does not hit hard enough. If it sets up anyway, on for example, Scolipede or Swellow, it takes significant damage in the process from two Facades (one on the switch in and one on the Smash, and Swellow then finishes Carra off with Quick Attack), meaning it fails as a Normal-Flying resist and that you need to use a Metang alongside Carracosta, stacking a Ground weakness in the process and you have yet to add four Pokémon.

This all leads to the following question:
What kind of support does Smash Carracosta need in order to have success as a sweeper?

And then the following questions appear:
- Wouldn't Gurdurr or Samurott be just as good in the same spot?
- How do you deal with Normal/Flyers since SmashCosta fails to do effectively?
- What do you use as a Stealth Rock setter alongside Carracosta, since most SR setters are weak to Grass/Fighting/Ground as well?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I don't feel that Carracosta performs exceptionally well. It can't set up on many of the threats that have become popular. Serperior and Gurdurr, for example, can beat it one on one and the popularity of these means that there are few setup opportunities. Birds like Swellow can U-Turn out as it comes in as well. Its low stats in special defense and speed leave it extremely vulnerable to revenge killing, since most scarfers outrun it and are specially-oriented this meta. This is also compounded by how it can't shield itself from being revenge killed or walled without giving up a vital move. It can't run Substitute as effectively as other sweepers because all its other moves are all valuable. Besides, it is worn down fairly easily due to Life Orb recoil and the defense drops, meaning that not only do you get revenge killed much more easily, you also need other teammates to fill up its defensive roles like Aasgier mentioned.

That being said, Carracosta is an absolute threat if it gets the Smash and has opposing checks and counters weakened enough. Some frailer scarfers such ad Zebstrika can be destroyed with an Aqua Jet if they have been weakened enough (or if running Adamant). Near-perfect coverage means that nothing much bar the physical regen walls and Seismitoad wall it after a boost or two. It is definitely a threat to watch out for, but those flaws prevent it from being a top-tier offensive powerhouse imo.

 

[Punchshroom]

Probably the main issue I have with Carracosta is how its speed tier is enough to outspeed notable threats after a boost, but loses so much bulk to do so. If I can invest some HP into Carracosta while still outspeeding crucial threats even after a slight shift in speed investment, then Carra would have an easier time Smashing since it would otherwise take hits better pre-Smash. But as it stands, removing just 4 EVs means +2 Costa speedties with Hidden Power Serperior (30 Spe IVs) and flat out loses to Serperiors without Hidden Power, while removing 8 EVs means Scolipede outpaces you (At this point, would you risk removing any more?). Even the likes of other +2 speed threats in Klang, Torterra or Gorebyss has some luxury with not running absolute max speed, allowing themselves some breathing room via HP investment. This is pretty unforgiving, essentially meaning Carracosta has to run max speed to fall behind dangerous threats, which takes a pretty notable toll on its physical bulk from amazing to acceptable, making setup harder than it seems. Mind you, it's still pretty dangerous, but those flaws aren't something you can simply brush aside.

I didn't like having that much pressure on my sweeper before it even begins to sweep, but I find Tank Carracosta to be much more...functionable, with max HP investment giving this turtle the bulk you actually expected from it. Wall Costa on the other hand, with absolute maximum physical defensive investment + Solid Rock just laughs in the face of Primeape's Close Combat. Having priority on your tank or wall is also nifty, though being weak to Electric sucks. :[

 

[skylight]

From my experience as well as in theory, Smash Carracosta can't set up easily and if it runs a Life Orb it loses to anything that runs Substitute. If it does not run a Life Orb, it does not hit hard enough. If it sets up anyway, on for example, Scolipede or Swellow, it takes significant damage in the process from two Facades (one on the switch in and one on the Smash, and Swellow then finishes Carra off with Quick Attack), meaning it fails as a Normal-Flying resist and that you need to use a Metang alongside Carracosta, stacking a Ground weakness in the process and you have yet to add four Pokémon.

It doesn't necessarily lose to everything that runs substitute. For one, if the Substitute user is switching into it - it wins, and LO damage doesn't guarantee it loses because it's only a small chunk of its life. Do you have specific examples? Because depending on what's using Substitute it doesn't necessarily guarantee that, unless it's like versus Seismitoad, Serperior or something. Otherwise it shouldn't make too much difference and it's a really specific thing to mention, because theoretically without LO it'd lose to a Substitute user (when it's under a Sub) anyway if they have a super effective STAB versus you. As for Swellow, a smart Swellow wouldn't actually stay in because it can die to Stone Edge in one hit and wouldn't want to risk that, and rather would switch to something that could deal with Carracosta. As a resist it works because really, what Swellow would want to risk the Stone Edge and wear itself down with the Toxic Orb anyway? I mean I'm pretty sure without SR Scarf Primeape can easily deal with it, etc.

 

[Punchshroom]

If Costa Smashes while the opponent Subs, Costa's weakened defenses would be left completely exposed. LO Carracosta loses almost outright in this scenario, though White Herb Costa may still be able to beat the threat.

If the Swellow user risks getting swept by a healthy Costa, the better move would be to sac Swellow to do as much damage to Costa as possible, though this should only be done if Carra has switched into Swellow prior, so staying in to hammer away at Costa would leave it at ~30+% before the Smash, and even less if Quick Attack and LO are factored in after the Smash. If Costa decides not to Smash, yes Swellow is dead, but so is Costa right after.

 

[ryan]

From my experience as well as in theory, Smash Carracosta can't set up easily and if it runs a Life Orb it loses to anything that runs Substitute.

Why are you setting up against a Substitute user? You can't justify the merits of using a Pokemon when you're playing badly with it.

If it sets up anyway, on for example, Scolipede or Swellow, it takes significant damage in the process from two Facades (one on the switch in and one on the Smash, and Swellow then finishes Carra off with Quick Attack)

Why are you switching a Shell Smash Carracosta into a Swellow, knowing full and well that it can take you out? Bring it in on the revenge or on a double switch. Once again, playing poorly with Carracosta is not going to yield good results.

meaning it fails as a Normal-Flying resist

Yes, it does. In the same way that Jynx fails as a Psychic resist and Swellow fails as a Bug resist. I know that these are sort of extreme examples, but it still very much applies here. You don't use Pokemon dedicated to sweeping the opposing team for the purpose of taking hits. That's what walls and tanks are there for. So your argument that "you still need something like Metang" is entirely true, but you seem to think that makes Carracosta bad. Back to Jynx, you aren't calling it bad for its inability to tank hits from opposing Jynx and Gardevoir. Think about how that applies to this.

As for how it stacks Ground weaknesses, that's not really a top concern when teambuilding. What runs Ground-type moves? Sawk, Piloswine, Golem, Golurk, etc. All things that can be beaten by Misdreavus. There you go. There's your Ground resist, if you're really /that/ concerned about it.

- Wouldn't Gurdurr or Samurott be just as good in the same spot?

Tell me why this question makes any sense, when Gurdurr is nothing like Carracosta, and Samurott still struggles to take out very similar things that Carracosta does, only without the boost in Speed that costa gets.

- How do you deal with Normal/Flyers since SmashCosta fails to do effectively?

However you would on any other team? I already addressed why you shouldn't use Carracosta as a Normal/Flying resist.

- What do you use as a Stealth Rock setter alongside Carracosta, since most SR setters are weak to Grass/Fighting/Ground as well?

Whatever you want. If the compounded weaknesses turn you off, use Miltank, use Metang, use Golurk. Yeah, all of them share a weakness with Carracosta. But a. it's only one weakness, and b. if you can't manage to cover one weakness shared among two Pokemon on one team, you're doing it wrong.

It can't set up on many of the threats that have become popular. Serperior and Gurdurr, for example, can beat it one on one and the popularity of these means that there are few setup opportunities.

Gurdurr: #31 in NU | Usage: 5.74451%
Serperior: #44 in NU | Usage: 4.99018%

meanwhile, Pokemon it _can_ set up on:

Scolipede: #9 in NU | Usage: 9.36738%
Kangaskhan: #20 in NU | Usage: 7.63129%
Swellow: #21 in NU | Usage: 7.32102%
Garbodor: #37 in NU | Usage: 5.46099%
Tauros: #47 in NU | Usage: 4.54557%
Regirock: #59 in NU | Usage: 3.62647%

these are just some examples of Pokemon that Carracosta can Smash against. There are still PLENTY of other Pokemon that it can Smash against in the right circumstances, but these are Pokemon where almost every time, Carracosta can set up. There are plenty of Pokemon that are used significantly more that it does not struggle to beat/set up on, and even some Pokemon that have dropped in usage that it can set up on.

Birds like Swellow can U-Turn out as it comes in as well.

Come in on a revenge.

Its low stats in special defense and speed leave it extremely vulnerable to revenge killing, since most scarfers outrun it and are specially-oriented this meta.

Why are you setting up on special attackers? Why are you not using Aqua Jet against obvious scarfers?

Besides, it is worn down fairly easily due to Life Orb recoil and the defense drops, meaning that not only do you get revenge killed much more easily, you also need other teammates to fill up its defensive roles like Aasgier mentioned.

I already touched on why the defensive Pokemon argument was illogical. You don't use a sweeper to take hits. As for Life Orb recoil, if you find it to be THAT much of a problem, use another item. I've been running Liechicosta (thanks wiitle) and have found I prefer it to Life Orb.

Near-perfect coverage means that nothing much bar the physical regen walls and Seismitoad wall it after a boost or two.

You can even run Ice Beam or Hidden Power Grass to muscle past Tangela and Seismitoad, respectively. I still prefer the classic set more, but mixed or even fully special sets are still plenty viable.

Probably the main issue I have with Carracosta is how its speed tier is enough to outspeed notable threats after a boost, but loses so much bulk to do so.

Of course you are losing bulk. You are using a set up move that drops your defenses. Bulk isn't even a factor outside of setting up. Other sweepers have their own ways of setting up: Serperior boosts its Special Defense and sets up on defensive Pokemon, Jynx puts opposing Pokemon to sleep, etc. Carracosta uses its fantastic bulk that works to its advantage, even when uninvested. I've already said it twice, but I'll throw it out there again since you all seem to think that it's so important. I'll even bold it. Shell Smash Carracosta is NOT a defensive Pokemon and should not be used as though it is. You aren't going to switch your Jynx into a predicted Psyshock because it is a sweeper, and it cannot take that hit. Carracosta works best coming in on a revenge kill and setting up against Pokemon that can't break it. It has enough bulk to set up, but nothing more. Don't try to use Shell Smash Carracosta as a bulky pivot, because that is not the role it plays.

Even the likes of other +2 speed threats in Klang, Torterra or Gorebyss has some luxury with not running absolute max speed, allowing themselves some breathing room via HP investment.

I'm not even touching Klang on this one because they are completely different Pokemon. Klang completely relies on its bulk and nothing more. Carracosta is FAR more offensive and can sweep after one turn. Klang cannot.

Torterra and Gorebyss are also very different. They set up on entirely different things. So if you're comparing setting up Torterra and Carracosta, sure you can use more HP investment on Torterra, but it doesn't resist much of anything. Carracosta plays so well because you can set up on a lot of different Pokemon due to its resistances. If you're not using Carracosta to its potential, you might as well stop posting about it. Right now, it sounds like you're setting it up against a Sawk and expecting good results.

If Costa Smashes while the opponent Subs, Costa's weakened defenses would be left completely exposed. LO Carracosta loses almost outright in this scenario, though White Herb Costa may still be able to beat the threat.

Once again, why are you setting up Carracosta against a Sub user? More importantly, really, is that not much in NU even uses Sub anyways.

If the Swellow user risks getting swept by a healthy Costa, the better move would be to sac Swellow to do as much damage to Costa as possible, though this should only be done if Carra has switched into Swellow prior, so staying in to hammer away at Costa would leave it at ~30+% before the Smash, and even less if Quick Attack and LO are factored in after the Smash. If Costa decides not to Smash, yes Swellow is dead, but so is Costa right after.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs 0 HP/0 Def Swellow: 86.59% - 102.3% (18.75% chance to OHKO)

Come in on the revenge, Smash, Aqua Jet. you're going to be around 50% after a round of LO damage and a Facade, plenty enough to clean up from there. Liechi still wrecks too. Feel free to use it.

What this all boils down to is this: you have to play Carracosta well if you want to see good results out of it. I know this isn't the viability rankings thread, so I won't even bother touching on that. But you guys are talking like Carracosta isn't even worth using. Learn how to play well with it before you bash it, because based on all of your posts here and in the viability threads, it seems like you don't know how to play with it effectively.

 

[Aasgier]

Why are you setting up against a Substitute user? You can't justify the merits of using a Pokemon when you're playing badly with it.

There will be instances you don't know if a certain mon is a SubPuncher (Kangaskhan) or otherwise dangerous.

However you would on any other team? I already addressed why you shouldn't use Carracosta as a Normal/Flying resist.

If you use Carracosta NOT as a Normal/Flying resist, you are forced to stack weaknesses with your SR setter which will become either a Rock- or a Steel-type, or you need to stack up even more weaknesses (though Pinsir also has access to Stealth Rock).

Why are you switching a Shell Smash Carracosta into a Swellow, knowing full and well that it can take you out? Bring it in on the revenge or on a double switch. Once again, playing poorly with Carracosta is not going to yield good results.

Because you might have nothing else that can take that Brave Bird or you have something in that desperately needs to stay alive. Also, if your sweeper cannot switch into ANYTHING - which is basically the case with Carracosta as it doesn't appreciate switching into Wartortle for f*cks sake, you are essentially playing with one mon less. Hell, even Pikachu has its uses despite its frailty, as it deters someone from using Electric attacks because of Lightningrod.

Tell me why this question makes any sense, when Gurdurr is nothing like Carracosta, and Samurott still struggles to take out very similar things that Carracosta does, only without the boost in Speed that costa gets.

Note that as they both struggle to take out similar threats, they compound problems on a team. But since Samurott is far more unpredictable with access to special sets as well as SD sets and moves like Taunt, and Gurdurr has a better typing as well as that it can take out more stuff and does not mind status as much because of Guts. Gurdurr can also set up upon more stuff as Carracosta can, and even beats many things it cannot set up on like Swellow and Braviary provided Gurdurr is at full health. Gurdurr can also actually switch into stuff and has some recovery through Drain Punch.

Scolipede: #9 in NU | Usage: 9.36738%
Kangaskhan: #20 in NU | Usage: 7.63129%
Swellow: #21 in NU | Usage: 7.32102%
Garbodor: #37 in NU | Usage: 5.46099%
Tauros: #47 in NU | Usage: 4.54557%
Regirock: #59 in NU | Usage: 3.62647%

Substitute variants of Scolipede, Kangaskhan and Tauros (or any of those, really, but they rarely run it) beat Carracosta. Regirock runs commonly T-Wave, screwing Carracosta over as well. That leaves Swellow, something you can only set up on if you don't switch in, and Garbodor, which you can set up on but you don't appreciate something like Rocky Helmet + Toxic as this stacks up damage upon you.

 

[Infernis]

Why are you setting up on special attackers? Why are you not using Aqua Jet against obvious scarfers?

You should probably note that he said it was prone to getting revenge killed by special scarfers like Zebstrika or Jynx and generally fast special attackers like Electrode. Even some fast and powerful physical attackers like CS Sawk or Primeape, or bad type matchups like Sawsbuck. He didn't say anything about setting up on them. As for Aqua Jet, it can deal some hefty damage. But ...

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 224-265 (82.65 - 97.78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 218-257 (74.65 - 88.01%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: No Effect
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Electrode: 200-238 (70.92 - 84.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 100-119 (33.11 - 39.4%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO

Without White Herb
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 297-351 (102.76 - 121.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Jynx Energy Ball vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 510-603 (176.47 - 208.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 382-450 (132.17 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 393-463 (135.98 - 160.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 387-456 (133.91 - 157.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Electrode Thunderbolt vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 464-550 (160.55 - 190.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Electrode Volt Switch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 345-406 (119.37 - 140.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 334-396 (115.57 - 137.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 468-554 (161.93 - 191.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With White Herb
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 198-234 (68.51 - 80.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Jynx Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 342-405 (118.33 - 140.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Focus Blast can deal 88-102%)

252+ SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 262-310 (90.65 - 107.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 258-306 (89.27 - 105.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Electrode Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 312-368 (107.95 - 127.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 225-265 (77.85 - 91.69%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 316-374 (109.34 - 129.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not gonna list the rest of them, but there's a pretty good variety. With some chip damage, Carracosta can beat more of them. And a good player would make sure not to go for the Carracosta sweep before removing the enemy's revenge killers. But the fact is that Carracosta is hardly unstoppable after a smash.

 

[ryan]

Kangaskhan uses Focus Punch on 5.250% of its sets on the ladder. In tournament play and such, I've literally never seen one. And if a Kangaskhan does use Substitute, (Substitute 7.354% on Kangaskhan), you can pretty much rest assured it's going to be using Focus Punch.

If you use Carracosta NOT as a Normal/Flying resist, you are forced to stack weaknesses with your SR setter which will become either a Rock- or a Steel-type, or you need to stack up even more weaknesses (though Pinsir also has access to Stealth Rock).

Whatever you want. If the compounded weaknesses turn you off, use Miltank, use Metang, use Golurk. Yeah, all of them share a weakness with Carracosta. But a. it's only one weakness, and b. if you can't manage to cover one weakness shared among two Pokemon on one team, you're doing it wrong.

Not sure what else you're looking for here.

Because you might have nothing else that can take that Brave Bird or you have something in that desperately needs to stay alive. Also, if your sweeper cannot switch into ANYTHING - which is basically the case with Carracosta as it doesn't appreciate switching into Wartortle for f*cks sake, you are essentially playing with one mon less. Hell, even Pikachu has its uses despite its frailty, as it deters someone from using Electric attacks because of Lightningrod.

Hi, Carracosta has base 74 HP with base 133 Def. It can take a hit on the switch it, but then you aren't playing optimally with Carracosta. The point of it is to come in with a free switch, which can be done multiple ways, mind you. Be it after something else on your team has been knocked out; thanks to a U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass; after Encoring your opponent into a useless move: it's not that hard to find an opportunity for a free switch. You can even come in on certain hits anyways. But even resisted, Swellow's Facade has 105 Base Power coming off of 403 base Attack after the Guts boost, and it's still going to deal a large chunk of damage. No, Carracosta does not like switching into special attacks. Jynx doesn't like switching into physical attacks though: does this mean that Jynx is a bad Pokemon?

What I'm getting at here is this. If you are not playing a Pokemon to its advantages, you are not going to see good results.

Substitute variants of Scolipede, Kangaskhan and Tauros (or any of those, really, but they rarely run it) beat Carracosta.

Nothing more to add there.

Not quite half of all Regirock on the ladder run Thunder Wave, but even so, the ladder is a much different game than tournaments. The ladder happens to think that Armaldo is good (keep in mind Armaldo is much more common on the ladder than Regirock anyways, and Carracosta sets up on it for days), but outside of the ladder, Thunder Wave Regirock is far less common. Even so, I'll contend to you that Thunder Wave can be a problem. You can always run Lum for that though if it's that big of a problem.

252 +2 Atk Carracosta Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Regirock (+Def) : 62.64% - 74.18% (2 hits to KO)

And then some prior damage takes care of it.

Garbodor usually runs something like Rock Blast / Pain Split / Toxic Spikes / Spikes. One thing that I do know: Toxic 10.544%.

Gurdurr can also set up upon more stuff as Carracosta can, and even beats many things it cannot set up on like Swellow and Braviary provided Gurdurr is at full health.

At this point, I don't even know that you read my previous post.


Edit: Infernis, basically what your post just told me was to knock out Sawsbuck before attempting a sweep, watch out for Scarf Jynx, and use hazards. Scarf Sawk is entirely non-existent outside of the ladder. Also Energy Ball Jynx? ~_~

 

[Aasgier]

Kangaskhan uses Focus Punch on 5.250% of its sets on the ladder. In tournament play and such, I've literally never seen one. And if a Kangaskhan does use Substitute, (Substitute 7.354% on Kangaskhan), you can pretty much rest assured it's going to be using Focus Punch.

I never had any success with non-Sub Kanga. Substitute, Focus Punch, Return and a random coverage move to hit stuff that you hate, and there we go. But yeah, the numbers prove Substitute Kangaskhan is pretty rare. I thought it wasn't as rare considering half of the Kangaskhan I've seen on the ladder are SubPunchers.

Hi, Carracosta has base 74 HP with base 133 Def. It can take a hit on the switch it, but then you aren't playing optimally with Carracosta. The point of it is to come in with a free switch, which can be done multiple ways, mind you. Be it after something else on your team has been knocked out; thanks to a U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass; after Encoring your opponent into a useless move: it's not that hard to find an opportunity for a free switch. You can even come in on certain hits anyways. But even resisted, Swellow's Facade has 105 Base Power coming off of 403 base Attack after the Guts boost, and it's still going to deal a large chunk of damage. No, Carracosta does not like switching into special attacks. Jynx doesn't like switching into physical attacks though: does this mean that Jynx is a bad Pokemon?

Even Carra can't switch into physical attacks especially if it runs Life Orb, but also if it runs Splash Plate. You can have 74 HP with 133 Def, which looks like a lot but it is uninvested. Worse, if you do not run White Herb, it are -1 Defences. Carra's relative lack of resistances (Fire, Ice, Normal, Flying, Poison) don't do it any favours either.
Also, note that even powerful neutral attacks 2HKO Carracosta, for example Pinsir's X-Scissor. Scolipede's Megahorn is in a similar vein (though this guy requires a boosting item).

Not sure what else you're looking for here.

I meant that it forces you to stack weaknesses with your SR setter, and if that SR setter is not your Normal/Flying resist, you end up stacking weaknesses with a third Pokémon.

What I'm getting at here is this. If you are not playing a Pokemon to its advantages, you are not going to see good results.

Obviously. Yet, if I can't switch something with 74/133 into attacks, or can't set up on like half the game without being picked off by priority a turn later (which happened so often, as even when I played for free switch ins, Carracosta was complete deadweight), and it is slow as balls w/o Smash, which means it ALWAYS has to take a hit. I used Carracosta on numerous teams but it never failed to disappoint me.

Nothing more to add there.

Not quite half of all Regirock on the ladder run Thunder Wave, but even so, the ladder is a much different game than tournaments. The ladder happens to think that Armaldo is good (keep in mind Armaldo is much more common on the ladder than Regirock anyways, and Carracosta sets up on it for days), but outside of the ladder, Thunder Wave Regirock is far less common. Even so, I'll contend to you that Thunder Wave can be a problem. You can always run Lum for that though if it's that big of a problem.

252 +2 Atk Carracosta Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Regirock (+Def) : 62.64% - 74.18% (2 hits to KO)

And then some prior damage takes care of it.

True. Note however that Armaldo 2HKO's SmashCosta with Stone Edge so I wouldn't count it a really safe set up because it easily puts Carra within priority range, especially when factoring in entry hazards.

Garbodor usually runs something like Rock Blast / Pain Split / Toxic Spikes / Spikes. One thing that I do know: Toxic 10.544%.

Toxic Spikes? Doesn't two layers of TSpikes yield the same result as Toxic?
However, however, Carracosta isn't the only Pokémon that prefers Toxic Spike removal support.

About the Gurdurr/Rott comparison, I said they struggle with the same mons as Carracosta. However, I find both of them to be strictly better than Carracosta. Gurdurr because it can beat things it can't set up on as well without being deadweight afterwards. Samurott because it is pretty versatile and your opponent has to guess what it is exactly running. Both of them are beasts, and since they struggle with the same opponents (if SD Samurott), you will rarely, if ever, add them alongside Carracosta on your team. Carracosta and Samurott also stack weaknesses.

 

[Infernis]

With some chip damage, Carracosta can beat more of them. And a good player would make sure not to go for the Carracosta sweep before removing the enemy's revenge killers.

Edit: Infernis, basically what your post just told me was to knock out Sawsbuck before attempting a sweep, watch out for Scarf Jynx, and use hazards. Scarf Sawk is entirely non-existent outside of the ladder. Also Energy Ball Jynx? ~_~

Yes, that is what I said in that last bit. Glad we're clear...?

And I totally use Energy Ball Jynx. Screws with bulky waters and Carracosta something fierce. :naughty:

 

[Dell]

I never had any success with non-Sub Kanga. Substitute, Focus Punch, Return and a random coverage move to hit stuff that you hate, and there we go. But yeah, the numbers prove Substitute Kangaskhan is pretty rare. I thought it wasn't as rare considering half of the Kangaskhan I've seen on the ladder are SubPunchers.

I don't see why this would apply to any relevance towards the actual topic of the thread. To be frank, however, saying that you've had no success with Kangaskhan that lacks the use of Substitute only represents alongside the many indicators that you have provided throughout the times you've been recently posting of which it shows a general lack of understanding of how said Pokemon is/should be most effectively used. If you have referred to anyone who's reasonably competent, you would almost definitely know for a fact that Kangaskhan's primary set (and also often regarded as the most prominent and consistent) uses an offensive set with Fake Out / Double-Edge / Earthquake / Sucker Punch. This set fully takes advantages of Kangaskhan's ability to revenge kill a good variety of threats in this frail offensive-inclined metagame while also being able to break through a nice portion of the tier due to Scrappy and the solid coverage that is provided here.

Even Carra can't switch into physical attacks especially if it runs Life Orb, but also if it runs Splash Plate. You can have 74 HP with 133 Def, which looks like a lot but it is uninvested. Worse, if you do not run White Herb, it are -1 Defences. Carra's relative lack of resistances (Fire, Ice, Normal, Flying, Poison) don't do it any favours either.
Also, note that even powerful neutral attacks 2HKO Carracosta, for example Pinsir's X-Scissor. Scolipede's Megahorn is in a similar vein (though this guy requires a boosting item).

You're still missing the entirety of the point that Treecko contended to; he specifically stated that while Carracosta does indeed possesses the capabilities of switching in and threatening a variety of Normal-, Flying-, and Fire-type Pokemon (thus proving you dead wrong on the basis of your argument here), looking to consistently switch in and wall threats is not the optimal way of playing the offensive approach of any Pokemon. The point of executing an offensive sweeper properly is to take advantage of your Pokemon in the ways that Treecko specifically mentioned; you send it out and attempt a setup on the Pokemon that doesn't have the capabilities of dealing sufficient damage or outright KO'ing after you have either sacrificed a Pokemon or gained some sort of momentum in the form of U-turn/Volt Switching, double switching, or just sending it in on a predicted Choice locked attack. With that being said, I apologize if you simply are just too biased on your bashing of Carracosta or incompetent to understand the concept of these specific in-game initiators.

I meant that it forces you to stack weaknesses with your SR setter, and if that SR setter is not your Normal/Flying resist, you end up stacking weaknesses with a third Pokémon.

I include myself that I don't understand what you're exactly trying to make out here. This isn't relevant to how offensive Carracosta performs as a Pokemon, since you're not playing in on a defensive route. You aren't going out of your way of investing on a bazillion resist just to stack up some kind of defensive core just so you can half-ass your way of trying to find proper teammates just to help pivot against a typing that it can easily take advantage of on its own, because it's specifically played as an offensive threat. On a similar note, it's worth noting that most offensive Normal- and Flying- type Pokemon are often frail and doesn't do particularly significant damage with their coverage moves, which means that Carracosta should be able to handle them over the course of checking them if you are reasonably competent.

Obviously. Yet, if I can't switch something with 74/133 into attacks, or can't set up on like half the game without being picked off by priority a turn later (which happened so often, as even when I played for free switch ins, Carracosta was complete deadweight), and it is slow as balls w/o Smash, which means it ALWAYS has to take a hit. I used Carracosta on numerous teams but it never failed to disappoint me.

I don't really feel like explicitly responding to this since this argument has been used and referred to several, not to mention being proved incorrect in a number of areas (not being able to switch in on anything, easily picked off by priority, etc.).

True. Note however that Armaldo 2HKO's SmashCosta with Stone Edge so I wouldn't count it a really safe set up because it easily puts Carra within priority range, especially when factoring in entry hazards.

Once again, big deal. You still reliably threaten Armaldo and at least get a setup opportunity with health to spare to potentially pull off a late game clean.

Toxic Spikes? Doesn't two layers of TSpikes yield the same result as Toxic?
However, however, Carracosta isn't the only Pokémon that prefers Toxic Spike removal support.

Well don't mind me of asking, but your point? As you've said yourself, Carracosta isn't the only Pokemon who dislikes Toxic Spikes, so this argument can be applied towards many other Pokemon.

About the Gurdurr/Rott comparison, I said they struggle with the same mons as Carracosta. However, I find both of them to be strictly better than Carracosta. Gurdurr because it can beat things it can't set up on as well without being deadweight afterwards. Samurott because it is pretty versatile and your opponent has to guess what it is exactly running. Both of them are beasts, and since they struggle with the same opponents (if SD Samurott), you will rarely, if ever, add them alongside Carracosta on your team. Carracosta and Samurott also stack weaknesses.

Like many others have mentioned here, I'm not sure if you've even attempted to decipher any of the points of the users who've disagreed with you here at this point. It simply comes down to the point that your inherent bias is preventing you from thinking objectively if you just going to point out irrelevant factors just to make a judgement of superiority based upon Pokemon that hardly (if at all) relates towards one another within their roles. This clearly seems to be that way judging by your posts on the May usage stats and NU viability ranking thread.

Regarding Punchshroom, the only thing that I'm prompted to point out for the time being is that I don't understand why he consistently claims that he acknowledges our points as to where we feel that Carracosta stands in terms of viability, yet on the same token consistently insists on badgering our points as to why feel otherwise in response to other references.

I apologize if I've offended anyone in particular, but I think a lot of people can attest to me in the fact that this fiasco is getting out of proportion and I'm honestly tired of it just as much as the next person happens to be.

 

[No Luck Involved]

There was an interesting discussion on irc about the different special options that Carracosta has, namely Hidden Power Grass and Ice Beam. I have yet to test this but Shell Smash, Stone Edge, Hidden Power Grass and Aqua Jet sounds like an awesome set. It's more reliant on that 80% Stone Edge but Hidden Power Grass means Seismitoad and Alomomola are no problems anymore, while it still retains that fast Aqua Jet. Ice Beam is an option too if Tangela is a particular problem. I know Agent Dell uses Hidden Power Grass on his Carracosta sets, it's something I definitely want to try!

 

[NfskMjmMal]

Mixed Carracosta is definitely an option people should consider. Its base 83 Special Attack is usable and hurts at +2, even uninvested. Without a power-boosting item like Life Orb, +2 4 SpA (Naive) Carracosta guarantees an OHKO on physically defensive Tangela after Stealth Rock and secures a 2HKO against specially defensive Seismitoed and Alomomola with HP Grass. 252 EVs are required in Special Attack to guarantee an OHKO against specially defensive Seismitoed after Stealth Rock, so obviously it's definitely not worth it, and a spread of 252 Atk, 4 SpA, and 252 Spe should be used with a Naive nature. I used to use Carracosta with Ice Beam instead of Waterfall with the spread I just listed and it worked pretty well. Ice Beam provides a lot more coverage and it's also nice to not have to rely on Stone Miss to get OHKOs against Grass-types and such.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I don't deny that mixed Carracosta is definitely a threat and can beat Alomomola and Seismitoad. However, you're now forced to work with Stone Edge as a STAB move which... really sucks considering the accuracy. I haven't tried it so I can't say for myself, but in theory I'm not sure if it's worth giving up the reliability of Waterfall.

(Tangela still owns you anyway)

 

[No Luck Involved]

These are the calcs for LO Carracosta against Seismitoad and Alomomola:

0 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Seismitoad (+SpDef) : 94.69% - 111.11% (68.75% chance to OHKO)

4 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Alomomola: 79.03% - 92.88% (2 hits to KO)

Really nice calcs!

 

[Jajub123]

In my opinion a mixed set for Carracosta is definitely effective it's just that it loses its general efficiency. If you replace waterfall for HP Grass it's let with a poor STAB move in SE due to its accuracy (as stated before). The mixed sets can be effective through the fact that it can take out Alo/Tangela but it does lose out on Waterfall. This slightly nueters Costa's potency as sometimes it can miss out on an effective sweep. Sometimes Costa needs that extra boost in power to take some threats out where Aqua Jet will not. A mixed set is viable it's just that it takes away that oomph that it would have if it had Waterfall.

I agree that Carracosta is a potent threat; you've got to use it correctly for it to shine but it does require some defensively support (but that is slightly pointless considering Jynx is in the same boat and she's amazing :p)

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Just wondering, has anyone tried Swift Swim Carracosta in rain? With Smash, Rain effectively gives Carracosta a +4 speed boost as well as a +3 boost when using Waterfall and it can afford to drop Stone Edge for another coverage move since Waterfall hits harder in the rain. I haven't tried it before, but if anyone has had experience of this, I'm curious to know

 

[Punchshroom]

Hmm...I can see what Treecko and Agent Dell are getting at, they've given me some insight on how to better run Smash Costa. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Based on testing results and some arguments, Smash Costa deters Normals, Flyings, Fires and Bugs from running rampant on your team, but cannot directly switch in. So either Costa is brought in on a timely double switch or avenges its teammate against the aforementioned sweeper in the most punishing way possible. Due to my conservative playstyle, I had difficulty letting my teammates drop like flies whenever something like Swellow / Braviary / Charizard / Scolipede comes in and nukes me, but now I realize that Smash Costa should only be played in a HO team, where each member is ready to die to allow a teammate the opportunity to sweep, and Carra can certainly deliver if done right. Have I got it so far? (not sure about the 'only' part...)

One theorymon partner I've got for Carracosta would be:

Simisage @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Fire / Ice
- Endeavor

This poke's survivability is put into question when you consider it has LO, Substitute and Endeavor, but at the same time LO Overgrow-boosted STAB Giga Drains can get back a lot of health. It lures in Flying-, Fire-, Ice-, Bug- and Poison-types for Carra to set up on (after its presumed death or timely switch) and can take care of nearly anything Costa has trouble with, either with SE Grass STAB, Hidden Power (for Tangela and/or Jynx), or Endeavor. If you guys agree that this is a good combo via testing or just general experience, I believe I've finally managed to tap into Costa's potential and have a better understanding of how it functions.

 

[Aasgier]

I don't see why this would apply to any relevance towards the actual topic of the thread. To be frank, however, saying that you've had no success with Kangaskhan that lacks the use of Substitute only represents alongside the many indicators that you have provided throughout the times you've been recently posting of which it shows a general lack of understanding of how said Pokemon is/should be most effectively used. If you have referred to anyone who's reasonably competent, you would almost definitely know for a fact that Kangaskhan's primary set (and also often regarded as the most prominent and consistent) uses an offensive set with Fake Out / Double-Edge / Earthquake / Sucker Punch. This set fully takes advantages of Kangaskhan's ability to revenge kill a good variety of threats in this frail offensive-inclined metagame while also being able to break through a nice portion of the tier due to Scrappy and the solid coverage that is provided here.

I guess it is a matter of preference. I indeed went with Substitute / Focus Punch / Return / Sucker Punch at that time as well as the set you used, and preferred the first.
However, I need to use Kangaskhan again, since I was a noob back when I used it.

You're still missing the entirety of the point that Treecko contended to; he specifically stated that while Carracosta does indeed possesses the capabilities of switching in and threatening a variety of Normal-, Flying-, and Fire-type Pokemon (thus proving you dead wrong on the basis of your argument here), looking to consistently switch in and wall threats is not the optimal way of playing the offensive approach of any Pokemon. The point of executing an offensive sweeper properly is to take advantage of your Pokemon in the ways that Treecko specifically mentioned; you send it out and attempt a setup on the Pokemon that doesn't have the capabilities of dealing sufficient damage or outright KO'ing after you have either sacrificed a Pokemon or gained some sort of momentum in the form of U-turn/Volt Switching, double switching, or just sending it in on a predicted Choice locked attack. With that being said, I apologize if you simply are just too biased on your bashing of Carracosta or incompetent to understand the concept of these specific in-game initiators.

You are still slow and you're lowering your defenses. Note that I am not inherently biased against Carracosta; I used it in three ladder teams and one expirimental team, yet it always failed me. This however, was the cause of my bias against it (and much like with Leavanny, I had to learn to use it which also costed me numerous games for being a noob, but with the slight difference that I failed with it even after that, just not as bad anymore). It might very well be that Carracosta is just not my piece of cake.

Also, the common users of U-Turn are (Scarf) Primeape and Swellow, which are too fast to give Carra a free hit. Volt Switch is a different matter though, with things like Ampharos, Probopass and Eelektross being slow enough to give Carra that free switch, proving your point. I just did not use a Volt Switch user alongside Carracosta each time, so you're right that this can help. Memento / Dual Screens also give a safe set up oppertunity.

Also, I think we can agree sacrificing a Pokémon can be unfavourable at times especially if you are playing with one mon you cannot use because it desperately needs that safe switch in if it wants to sweep.

I include myself that I don't understand what you're exactly trying to make out here. This isn't relevant to how offensive Carracosta performs as a Pokemon, since you're not playing in on a defensive route. You aren't going out of your way of investing on a bazillion resist just to stack up some kind of defensive core just so you can half-ass your way of trying to find proper teammates just to help pivot against a typing that it can easily take advantage of on its own, because it's specifically played as an offensive threat. On a similar note, it's worth noting that most offensive Normal- and Flying- type Pokemon are often frail and doesn't do particularly significant damage with their coverage moves, which means that Carracosta should be able to handle them over the course of checking them if you are reasonably competent.

I can't argue against that, as I learned that the hard way.

Once again, big deal. You still reliably threaten Armaldo and at least get a setup opportunity with health to spare to potentially pull off a late game clean.

This is true, though with 50% X-Scissor damage and 12% or 25% hazard damage, I would not consider it favourable for Life Orb variants, and this is assuming Carracosta did have a free switch in.

Well don't mind me of asking, but your point? As you've said yourself, Carracosta isn't the only Pokemon who dislikes Toxic Spikes, so this argument can be applied towards many other Pokemon.

Toxic Damage stacks up with Life Orb damage, reducing sweeping time especially factoring in you spend a turn to set up in which you are very likely to take attack damage.
With non-LO damage it isn't as bad though since Carracosta still has enough time to destroy. But Toxic + Hazards + attack damage during set up turn (and maybe + LO recoil as well) stacks up quickly.

Like many others have mentioned here, I'm not sure if you've even attempted to decipher any of the points of the users who've disagreed with you here at this point.

Why would you use Carracosta over Gurdurr? Since they struggle with the same opponents, I am not sure why you would put both of them in the same team (if you can point me out a strong team that does utilize Gurdurr alongside Smash Carracosta, please tell me, because here I don't mind being proven wrong for the sake of an easier / ended argument). Offensive synergy is very important, especially with Carracosta as you pointed out earlier, you aren't going to use SmashCosta defensively. And Gurdurr and Carracosta don't have much offensive synergy (though I admit, you could certainly do worse).

If you won't use them on the same team, you have to choose in between them, or consider another set-up physical attacker that provides a win condition (and I agree Carracosta does provide a win condition if it can set up that single Smash without taking much damage and your opponents counters are gone, mind it... it is just that I can't see this happening because there are few things it can set up on without taking a number of damage). Also, it doesn't help I've yet to see an opposing Carracosta to be very troublesome, but I run Physically Defensive Seismitoad fairly often as well as Misdreavus, one being a flat out counter and the other being a check, so yeah.

Edit: I can't get my rating above 1600 when using HO teams. Carracosta or not, HO and Pokémon used commonly in a similar way as HO, just do not work for me. Like... not at all.
I always need to have multiple bulky pivots to prevent me from failing. Even in Doubles I have a bulky team.
At least I'm sure Carracosta isn't the problem now. I just can't add more than one frail (read: Pokémon that does not like to switch into moves) HO mon on my team or I fail myself.:evan:

Btw, I did get a Carracosta sweep during the HO run. Yeah, I see what can make Carracosta powerful, but my own skill at failing with HO limits its usefulness for me.

 

[Jajub123]

@Scorpdestroyer:

I meant to reply to you yesterday but I didn't have enough time.

Anyway I think the idea of SS Costa could be viable it's just that it can be innefective. For one thing you'll have to dedicate portion of your team to Costa (I.e. rain setter). This could already lead to problems because-as already said above- as Costa should mostly be used on offensives teams. Another thing is the fact that Costa is somewhat hard to switch in so setting up rain and getting off a successful Shell Smash could be difficult. Okay let's say you managed to set up rain and a Shell Smash boost. You have a maximum of 5 turns to sweep which a lot of things can stall out. You could run RD on Costa but that would take away from one of its coverage moves. Overall I personally think it'd be easier to get 2 Shell Smashes off. :)

 

[Dell]

Hmm...I can see what Treecko and Agent Dell are getting at, they've given me some insight on how to better run Smash Costa. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Based on testing results and some arguments, Smash Costa deters Normals, Flyings, Fires and Bugs from running rampant on your team, but cannot directly switch in. So either Costa is brought in on a timely double switch or avenges its teammate against the aforementioned sweeper in the most punishing way possible. Due to my conservative playstyle, I had difficulty letting my teammates drop like flies whenever something like Swellow / Braviary / Charizard / Scolipede comes in and nukes me, but now I realize that Smash Costa should only be played in a HO team, where each member is ready to die to allow a teammate the opportunity to sweep, and Carra can certainly deliver if done right. Have I got it so far? (not sure about the 'only' part...)

One theorymon partner I've got for Carracosta would be:

Simisage @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Fire / Ice
- Endeavor

This poke's survivability is put into question when you consider it has LO, Substitute and Endeavor, but at the same time LO Overgrow-boosted STAB Giga Drains can get back a lot of health. It lures in Flying-, Fire-, Ice-, Bug- and Poison-types for Carra to set up on (after its presumed death or timely switch) and can take care of nearly anything Costa has trouble with, either with SE Grass STAB, Hidden Power (for Tangela and/or Jynx), or Endeavor. If you guys agree that this is a good combo via testing or just general experience, I believe I've finally managed to tap into Costa's potential and have a better understanding of how it functions.

No worries. It's not at all an uncommon situation of which players are guilty among their tendency of underestimating (or overestimating) certain Pokemon based upon what favors their primarily team play-style arch-type, simply because they don't tend to work out very well in their favor if you don't completely understand the concept of what team they would exactly fit for regarding a play-style. I'm glad we're seeing an eye-to-eye here now.

Regarding Carracosta, its placing is not necessarily limited towards Hyper Offensive, but it is true that you should stray towards a more offensive-inclined nature. It can work on pretty much kind of any sort among that category, especially considering that it's not limited towards having to get that setup opportunity in order to do anything noteworthy to your opponent. Even without the boost, it still carries on utility in the fact that it can still dish on pretty respectable amount of damage to most things that doesn't resist its STAB moves aside from various physical walls. Priority is also useful in the fact that it can pick off most weakened offensive Pokemon. While you are correct within the fact that you can't necessarily use Carracosta to switch into much of most offensive threats, it serves as an insurance by virtue of fact of its naturally high Defense, typing, and Solid Rock ability. In other matters, it make the threats that you've mentioned think twice about making their way of using their respective STAB moves out of fear of losing momentum and gaining you a potential setup opportunity, thus such situation can even be used to your advantage. It also should be taken to account that Carracosta still has the reliable means of threatening them even without actually boosting. The presence of its ability to setup also tends to force awkward situations on the opponent on the likes of matching up against Skuntank for example, which can often pressure the opponent towards Taunt you while you can strike it back hard with your STAB move.

As far as good teammates go, Shell Smash Carracosta honestly has a fairly nice distribution of them. Typically speaking, it usually includes anything that poses as a threat towards specific counters like Seismitoed or Gurdurr, things that can at the least support you in terms of pushing specific physical walls at KO range, Pokemon that provides momentum, partners that can provide some insurance against typing weaknesses, and to an extent, hazard support and the ability to take on popular revenge killers. A lot of what's mentioned shows some good examples. If you're using Mixed Carracosta, partners that can take advantage of its ability to lure the number of threats that you're specifically aiming for (Alomomola, Seismitoed, Tangela). Also keep in mind that you become initially walled by a few Steel-types such as Metang since you (should be) forgo the use of Waterfall.

 

[Punchshroom]

After a bit of testing, I've found some success in Splash Plate Carracosta more than Life Orb, because my Water attacks are still boosted, with Waterfall reaching Stone Edge's power and Aqua Jet is still nice to throw around. I've seen people run a good variety of moves on Costa, namely Ice Beam and HP Grass (I've seen a few run lol Focus Blast and EQ). However, what items do you consider for Carra first? Life Orb? Air Balloon? Lum Berry? Liechi Berry for Sturdy sets? My aforementioned Splash Plate?

 

[skylight]

However, what items do you consider for Carra first? Life Orb? Air Balloon? Lum Berry? Liechi Berry for Sturdy sets? My aforementioned Splash Plate?

I use LO usually although Liechi was fun to use but I kind of preferred consistent power, which is why I mostly go with LO. I'd never use the Air Balloon though simply because I think it'd just be too weak and would be pretty much like using White Herb on Carracosta (as in, both ways it doesn't help its power whatsoever, and that should really be the emphasis, since you want it to hit things hard and OHKO them rather than survive EQ but lose to CC, etc).