CaP Revision - Revenankh: Part 2 Discussion

[eric the espeon]

Even though it is not part of the upcoming poll, feel free to include specific ideas concerning what should be changed. However, this does NOT mean you can suggest adding anything. This thread will discuss removal/reduction only, so please do not suggest a potential new ability or move or similar.

Revision does not exclude the possibility of adding some things. I do not think that Syclant or Revenankh needs anything new (Pt Tutors are not needed but some of them would not be a problem.), but people should not be bared from discussing possible additions.

Following this thread will be a bold vote in which the options will be Stats, Movepool, and Ability. Each person will be able to vote for as many of the options as they like with either yes, no, or abstaining. I do not wish to force people to vote for or against an area which they do not have an opinion on, and that is the reason for the bold poll as well as the option to abstain. Any of these options with more yes than no votes will be scheduled for a change according to the following discussion. If you have any problems with this method, tell me now. I don't want people complaining about the process after the poll starts, and any such complaints will be ignored in the future.

If say Movepool and Stats are voted to be changed, could we vote on whichever one is more popular first (Say Movepool has 30 yes and 20 no, Stats has 40 yes and 10 no. We would vote on Stats before Movepool.).

Then once the most popular one is fully discussed and voted on we would poll to see if the next most popular change still needed to happen (Some people may think that once Stats are fixed there is no longer any need to change the movepool).

If we run both at the same time it could get very complicated (I for one do not want both changes to happen, if both polls are open at once what should I vote?), and having one person submit complete ideas for the changes will be unlikely to accurately reflect the voters wishes.

I do see a problem with the current process in that each category of changes is voted on independently of the others. Therefore, I would like to propose a change to the process. Instead of the next discussion (that means after the next vote), I would like to allow for complete submissions of changes - similar to what is done with stat spreads in the CaP project. This will allow for changes to each aspect which are coherent with one another, instead of what would really be random changes. I would really like everyone's thoughts on this, but as of now I am leaning toward changing the process.

I am against this idea. For one it is unnecessary if you use my idea (Vote on changes to each aspect one by one, in order of popularity. Voters will be able to see what changes have been decided on already and make more educated choices.) and it also reduces the input of voters to a degree, for the stat spreads we have many polls to put exact parameters with this.. that would be complicated to say the least.

 

[Deck Knight]

Also, we voted on options for the main STAB attack and Hammer Arm won by a large margin. It would be as disenfranchising to voters as removing Shed Skin is. (Although Deck Knight's idea sounds marvelous, it's just if we can avoid changing abilities, I prefer to not mess with them.)

The OP says that everything is up for discussion, including abilities. ShedRest was very controversial when we first implemented it, and more powerful than we initially thought. What EarlyRest does is apply the intent of reliable, quick recovery without the extra benefits that ShedRest provides, and it isn't totally unreasonable flavorwise to have Early Bird on a Mummy. The Egyptians were pretty big on Sun Gods.

What removing Shadow Sneak does is make Revenankh largely nonviable. Gengar is already a check to enough pokemon, making Gengar stronger does nothing for the metagame. Revenank acts similarly on Azelf, another otherwise hyperpowered pokemon. Revenankh has done a great job decentralizing the metagame, and removing Shadow Sneak recentralizes it around the centralizing forces Shadow Sneak addresses.

Similarly, having a pokemon who has no STAB move >75 power is unprecedented except for the crappy old days of Bugs not named Heracross in GSC (and RBY generally). Hammer Arm was original, it works, and it strikes a good balance in making even slow Zen Headbutt and Air Slash users able to flinch Revenankh.

Revenankh's stats and movepool are extremely well balanced. It is its ability that pushes it over the edge.

 

[TAY]

Eric I actually really like your suggestion. It's a lot less complicated and time consuming than my proposed new one. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[beej]

My sole suggestion:

Replace Shed Skin with Early Bird

Revenankh already has the lowest BST and BSR of all of our CAP pokemon. What makes it fundamentally broken is the ShedRest combo. If you could Burn Revenankh and expect it to stay burned, it would lose a lot of power. Early Bird lets it retain its quick Resting recovery, but does not allow it to remove poison or paralysis immediately.

Once you change the ability, Revenankh can be thoroughly curbed by any faster pokemon with Wll-O-Wisp, increasing its counter list greatly. It will also be vulnerable to Roar and Whirlwind for at least one turn, if you can predict the Rest. The only thing that stops Weezing from getting in its grill currently is that Will-O-Wisp doesn't necessarily stick.

I'd much rather remove the seriously overpowered ShedRest than the perfectly justifiable Shadow Sneak. Honestly, if you've let Revenankh Bulk Up on you 3 or 4 timrs you deserve to get sweeped by it. Early Bird lets it keep a quick, reliable form of recovery (as does Air Lock Moonlight) without also granting it de facto immunity from Burn and Paralysis.

I agree with the reasoning here, however I don't know if even Early Bird is a good idea. I can't see Revenankh being weak without the ability to remove its status, so why even create an incentive for using Rest outside of a Sleep Talk set? I think that Airlock Moonlight is a fine form of recovery and should be the only one.

Basically, my suggestion is that we just remove Shed Skin altogether. Sure it was voted on, but I think that's irrelevant because it's really what makes Revenankh so fundamentally difficult to stop.

 

[Bluekikatana]

Replacing shed skin with early bird sounds like a pretty good idea. Only Early bird is the weirdest sounding ability for Revenankh around. It just doesn't fit, so another ability like it with a different name might be better.

 

[Frosty]

I support Deck Knight's idea of replacing Shed Skin with Early Bird.

Shadow Sneak doesn't deal that much damage unless you have a good number of BUs under your belt. The only pokes that may be damaged a lot by it are the likes of Gengar and Starmie (mainly Gengar) and really, any poke that checks the oh-so-popular Gengar is a good one IMO. It helps descentralizing the metagame, as someone has said earlier.

Also, EarlyRest is still a nice strategy. It isn't ridiculous like Shedrest (hi 30% chance of waking up in the very turn you rest) and not luck-dependant, which is a huge plus IMO. This also makes Burning and Poisoning a little more effective (still not much though) against it, since it will have to use rest so it doesn't die, giving you 1-2 free turns to switch to a counter and get rid of revvy.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

I'm worried that if we do anything more than just lower the Special Defense, we'll ruin what makes Revenankh so cool...

But eh, carry on =/

 

[Time Mage]

I think that lowering its Special Defense a bit is the most reasonable change. By lowering it, Revenankh suddenly can't switch into so many things, and then once switched, can't stay on many special attacks, as well.

ShedRest is very powerful, yes, but with the SpDef reduction, it shouldn't be that good. I'd rather not remove/substitute it, but if finally there's an agreement to do so, I guess Early Bird (if possible, renamed to something more fitting) is not that bad.

Finally, removing Shadow Sneak is a no-no. That would change it too much, removing a key aspect of its strategy. And it's not the broken one: Revenankh's strength comes from its survivability, allowing it tu pull several Bulk Ups with ease, not because it has a weak ghost move, that needs several BU's to be effective.

 

[Urza]

i think that the extremely close nature of this vote means that we have to be REALLY careful about what we remove. everyone has different ideas of what makes revvy too powerful (and almost 50% of those that voted DIDN'T think he was too powerful), and that's important.

personally, i think a minor drop in SpDef is fine, along with possibly Early Bird...but if both happens, we're talking no more then 5 points in SpDef...

i donno, i definitely like him the way he is, so i'm kind of sad that we're changing him. yeah, he's bulky, but some things just got a whole lot more aggressive. he might have trouble survive the platinum transition as is.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Deck Knight's Early Bird proposal is an interesting one. I don't know if it really solves the problem. IMO, the ability to wake up early from Rest is much more potent than I expected. Two turns of sleep is the appropriate penalty to pay for recovering all health and removing all status. Especially with a pokemon as bulky as Revenankh. But, I think it might be interesting to try out and see if it tweaks Rev in the right direction.

Regarding the removal of Shadow Sneak -- if it goes away, it's not like Gengar/Starmie/Azelf become automatic counters. It becomes a strategy and prediction game. All of these pokemon resist Revenankh's Fighting STAB and could possibly hit Rev SE with a STAB of their own -- provided that they get in. Revenankh will likely still be packing a Ghost move. The first time the opponent shows that they are willing to switch in Gengar/Starmie/Azelf on Revenankh, then it becomes a prediction game. Now Revenankh owners will have to predict and tag them on the switch-in. But the Gengar/Starmie/Azelf owner might be tempted to go for it, because of the possibility of getting in "for free" on a resisted/immune Fighting move. I think gameplay like that is far more interesting than "guaranteed" matchups. Right now, almost all of Revenankhs matchups are "black or white" -- we need more "gray".

Right now, the presence of Shadow Sneak makes Revenankh's Psychic weakness almost irrelevant. With Shadow Sneak in the mix, only bulky Special Psychics (Cressy and Celebi) can actually come in and eat Bulk Upped Shadow Sneaks. By removing Shadow Sneak, we introduce strategy and skill around the interesting typing triangle of Fighting, Ghost, and Psychic. Currently, it's almost a non-factor.

 

[eric the espeon]

Glad you like my idea TAY.


I do not think we should remove or change any abilitys. Removing Shadow Sneak and/or slightly reducing its Special Defence should be easily enough to make it safe for OU IMO, without resorting to a more drastic change. Taking away ShedRest, its key ability and one of its most defining characteristics, is not needed. Also I feel that modifying abilitys should only be used as a last resort, slightly altering stat spreads or fidleing with movepools does not change the Pokemon very much, while removing or changing an ability would.

We should nerf it enough to make it fair in OU, but no more.
The previous poll suggested that almost 50% of voters wanted no change at all, how many want to take away a major part of what makes it powerful?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't see why more checks is bad. Although, listing all of that makes me question why we are revising Revvy in the first place, it just seems that dropping Shadow Sneak adds more checks / counters than anything else we could do.

Having more checks/counters are good, but not if the only reason you want them is because you don't like or don't want to use the checks/counters already established. That's my main worries in regards to removing Shadow Sneak off of him.

Right now, almost all of Revenankhs matchups are "black or white" -- we need more "gray".

So your reason for removing Shadow Sneak is to increase strategy making and prediction skills among battles with Revenankhs. Frankly that's sounds like a more reasonable reason why to remove Shadow Sneak, but the idea of removing one of Revenankh's key aspects about him really irks me. It's one of Revvy more noticable traits, and getting rid of it because you feel that Espeon/Zam/Starmie/etc need more attention/usage is a bit silly in my eyes. Telling me that having them as "checks" for Revvy because it allows for more variety within a team would sway my opinion a tad bit.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

I don't play on the Shoddy servers. I plan to soon, but I'll be bummed out if my relatively uninformed vote affected anything in a negative way since the last poll was so close...

In any case, would it be enough to just lower the Special Defense and be done with this? I don't agree with the whole Early Bird thing ... that just seems to me like it's messing with things in an ugly sort of way. (And not just the flavor. Shed Skin is just on the whole an entirely more appealing ability.)

Removing Shadow Sneak from Revenankh kind of feels to me like removing Yache Berry from Garchomp but letting it keep Earthquake, Outrage, et cetera ... can't it keep its beloved little move if everybody loved it when Revenankh was being made?

 

[Comatose811]

I think that we should lower the Special Defense like we all agree on, and then est that before we go around screwing with ShedRest. The community was very divided on what it felt should be done with Revenankh, and I don't think that we should do anything major unless we know that the community feels that ShedRest is what is breaking it. It was very close, and we don't know whether everyone chose Yes for the SpD.

 

[AJC]

i personally don't find anything wrong with this one other than what seems to be a clear case of people not using what counters it and i agree with deck knight if you let anything get in 4 or 5 much less 6 stat boosters its more than likely your fault for not doing something about it. i never had any problems with it at all in the times i was against it

 

[Drybones]

Reduction of Sp Def

 

[Time Mage]

I think that we should lower the Special Defense like we all agree on, and then test that before we go around screwing with ShedRest. The community was very divided on what it felt should be done with Revenankh, and I don't think that we should do anything major unless we know that the community feels that ShedRest is what is breaking it. It was very close, and we don't know whether everyone chose Yes for the SpD.

I think that's the most reasonable approach, really. First, a minor change that most agree at, then test it to see if it achieves the desired results, then add other changes if necessary.