CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 13a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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Okay, so you want to outspeed CAP8? Fine. That requires you to boost your Speed up to 197 from 158, requiring 156 EVs. Assuming 252 Attack, that's 100 HP Evs.

I use Calm Mind as you switch Tyranitar in. You outrun me and use Earthquake. We already know that doesn't OHKO. I hit you with Surf:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (95 Base Power): 188 - 222 (51.37% - 60.66%)

Then I use priority Vacuum Wave:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 156 - 188 (42.62% - 51.37%)

Guranteeing the 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Naturally, this isn't even assuming a Life Orb or whatever item I feel like using. With Life Orb:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 204 - 244 (55.74% - 66.67%)

Who needs Surf, anyway? That's a 2HKO with priority.
what set is going to have Vacuum Wave and Surf? What are great attacking combos for if you don't use both? You leave home without one of CAP8's STAB moves and you open the flood gates to some of it's checks. And few CM sets use items over than Leftovers, forget Life Orb. By the way this little Tyranitar scenario happens with Growth as well, which has already made the Allowed list.

While I'm here might as well throw Wish into this

Personally I think it's the answer to CAP8's recovery issues. since giving him an instant recovery move is rather broken, Wish give CAP8 a way to support and leaves him stuck with either a wish/ protect set, or waiting out a turn and hoping not the get OHKOed or CH. It's still the full 50% recovery, unaffected by SS so it doesn't have as many healing down-sides as Morning Sun/ Moon Light/ Synthesis.
 
what set is going to have Vacuum Wave and Surf? What are great attacking combos for if you don't use both? You leave home without one of CAP8's STAB moves and you open the flood gates to some of it's checks. And few CM sets use items over than Leftovers, forget Life Orb.
First of all, there is considerably more support for a 50% Healing move than for Calm Mind, giving it a distinct advanage over Suicune. There's no reason why I can't use a Life Orb, especially if it gurantees a 2HKO on Tyranitar.

Failing that, consider this:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 156 - 188 (42.62% - 51.37%)

+1 Vacuum Wave 2HKOs 94% of the time with Stealth Rock.
 
First of all, there is considerably more support for a 50% Healing move than for Calm Mind, giving it a distinct advanage over Suicune. There's no reason why I can't use a Life Orb, especially if it gurantees a 2HKO on Tyranitar.

Failing that, consider this:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 156 - 188 (42.62% - 51.37%)

+1 Vacuum Wave 2HKOs 94% of the time with Stealth Rock.
Still happens with Growth, which is already on the allowed list. I'm surprised you aren't scrutinizing my latias Calcs as much as the T-Tar ones.
 
How bout we use a Tyranitar spread with more Hp or Special Defense evs and a little less Attack?

*Edit*

Scratch that. That' too simple of a question. I seem to be late anyways.
 
When if a Tar set with less Attack is used in place of more HP or Special Defense)?

*Edit*

Scratch that. That' too simple of a question. I seem to be late anyways.
I don't understand your question. I never gave T-Tar anything less than 252 EVs in Atk. We were debating over Speed/ HP.

Never reallyt thought of it before bvecause it's not the norm, but I wonder what the results would be if T-Tar invested it's Speed EVs in SpDef?
 
I don't understand your question. I never gave T-Tar anything less than 252 EVs in Atk. We were debating over Speed/ HP.

Never reallyt thought of it before bvecause it's not the norm, but I wonder what the results would be if T-Tar invested it's Speed EVs in SpDef?
That question could have been typed better. Referring to my question.

There are a couple sets that contain healthy Special Defense ev investments. The ones in the Dex are rather specific though.
 
Still happens with Growth, which is already on the allowed list. I'm surprised you aren't scrutinizing my latias Calcs as much as the T-Tar ones.
Growth doesn't boost Special Defense. It's not the increased Special Attack that makes it unbeatable, it's the increased Special Defense combined with the godly HP and physical Defense. I have no problem with Growth.

AL: Choice Band Tar is pretty much guranteed max Attack.
 
Growth doesn't boost Special Defense. It's not the increased Special Attack that makes it unbeatable, it's the increased Special Defense combined with the godly HP and physical Defense. I have no problem with Growth.
Which is why I was wondering you never brought up latias, since she's the only calc I made that involved SpDef.
 
Which is why I was wondering you never brought up latias, since she's the only calc I made that involved SpDef.
Latias and CAP8 have no reason to be out at the same time, and even if Latias Calm Minds and takes a Draco Meteor, the opponent can just switch to Scizor/Tyranitar/whatever and force Latias out. Those calculations really aren't relevant in any way.

There's still no reason for Calm Mind to be Allowed, or even Controversial. Suicune++ is so obviously broken that this debate really isn't worth continuing.
 
Not a significant one at all, but maybe Refresh can be added on for status restoring. Not really a move you'd want to use a moveslot for, but for those crazy dudes who might hate Resting.

In case no one mentioned it, Haze. Not a big part of the battling scene anymore but removing boosts from certain enemire might be useful. Too bad they'll most likely be faster than the Cap though.
 
Just gonna repost my thoughts on Stockpile, Swallow, and Spit Up.

It would just be like Stockpile Hippowdon but slightly better. Stockpile allows it to only increase its defense three times and nothing else which I think is not broken. Swallow and Spit Up are just combos that go with Stockpile because they always come with it.
 
Anyone have any issues putting Wish into Allowed?

While I'm here might as well throw Wish into this

Personally I think it's the answer to CAP8's recovery issues. since giving him an instant recovery move is rather broken, Wish give CAP8 a way to support and leaves him stuck with either a wish/ protect set, or waiting out a turn and hoping not the get OHKOed or CH. It's still the full 50% recovery, unaffected by SS so it doesn't have as many healing down-sides as Morning Sun/ Moon Light/ Synthesis.
 
Just gonna repost my thoughts on Stockpile, Swallow, and Spit Up.

It would just be like Stockpile Hippowdon but slightly better. Stockpile allows it to only increase its defense three times and nothing else which I think is not broken. Swallow and Spit Up are just combos that go with Stockpile because they always come with it.
I dunno if you know this (you implied otherwise) but it increases Special Defense as well. It's the equivilant of Cosmic Power. A few boosts and it will become very difficult to actually finish off from either attacking side (though realistically the boosts won't always be there). As such I say controversial at the highest, as I'm against Calm Mind for the Special Defense increase, but Hippowdon doesn't exactly utilize it religiously.
 

Stellar

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Ok so there hasn't really been that much discussion on the pending / controversial moves, so I'm going to point them out for those who haven't noticed them. It's really important that there are arguments for these moves before they are voted on soon, so please discuss! These are just a few points that I thought might spark discussion so feel free to use this as a base. These aren't really arguments for either side, but just some facts.

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy
  • Lack of viable users for these moves in the OU environment.
  • Could allow CAP to heal itself of poison or paralysis, two of the most hindering statuses for this Pokemon.
  • Could cause possible problems if this is allowed alongside Cosmic Power and recovery due to the creature's bulk and ability to heal from poison status.

Curse
  • Pokemon has a low Attack stat, but good defenses to work with.
  • May perform similar to Curse Hippowdon, but with half the attack.
  • Pokemon's lower SpD and inability to boost it makes this rather lackluster.

Fake Tears / Metal Sound
  • Increases damage output but without lasting effects.
  • Forces switches, which could be useful with residual damage support.
  • Life Orb 252 Modest Thunderbolt against 0 HP / 176 Calm Blissey after Metal Sound / Fake Tears: 37.79% - 44.39%.

Taunt
  • Too slow to prevent Stealth Rock from being set up by most leads (I see this as similar to Taunt Heatran).
  • Could be used with some Speed to prevent Dragon Dance Gyarados / Agility Metagross / etc.
  • Stops status or Leech Seed from Blissey / Celebi / etc.
  • Prevents attempts at healing (Softboiled / Recover / etc.)

Light Screen
  • Allows CAP to temporarily boost its lower defensive stat, greatly increasing its bulk.
  • Supports the entire team.
  • Allows it to more easily tackle Heatran and Latias (Life Orb 252 Modest Earth Power against Max HP CAP: 43.81% - 51.90%).

Reflect
  • Increases CAP's larger defensive stat, allowing it to take almost any physical attack with impunity.
  • Supports the entire team.
  • Choice Band Adamant 252 Tyranitar EQ against 252 HP CAP after Reflect: 38.10% - 45.24%.
  • Choice Band Adamant 252 Tyranitar EQ against max / max Bold CAP after Reflect: 28.10% - 33.33%.
  • Choice Band Adamant 252 Dugtrio EQ against max HP CAP before Reflect: 80.48% - 94.76%
  • Choice Band Adamant 252 Dugtrio EQ against max / max Bold CAP before Reflect: 60.00% - 70.48%
  • Choice Band Adamant 252 Dugtrio EQ against max / max Bold CAP after Reflect: 30.00% - 35.71%
  • Max SpA Modest CAP Dragon Pulse against min / min Dugtrio: 119.91% - 141.23%

Cosmic Power
  • Boosts both of the CAP's good defensive stats.
  • With a status recovery move, CAP would be essentially immune to Toxic unless the opponent has Taunt.
  • Only viable if CAP has access to a recovery move.
  • Still vulnerable to critical hits and other residual damage (like sandstorm), unlike Clefable.

Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis
  • Lesser forms of recovery.
  • Reliant on weather conditions.
  • 25% recovery in essentially omnipresent sandstorm conditions.

Stealth Rock
  • CAP is slow enough to be Taunted.
  • Good bulk helps with set-up.
  • Capable of forcing out many of the reliable spinners of OU with STAB Electric attacks.
  • Resists many of common leads' attacks such as Iron Head, Meteor Mash, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, etc and can possibly scare out these leads due to high SpA.
  • Still countered by lead Fidgit due to its higher Speed, Taunt, and STAB Ground attacks.
  • Min SpA Fidgit Earth Power against max HP CAP: 56.19% - 67.14% (100% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers).

Yawn
  • Gives CAP another move that can force switches, useful with residual damage support.
  • Possible sleep-inducing move.
  • Requires the foe to remain on the field to achieve sleep status.
  • Helps with scouting and set-up.

Please discuss, people! We need an informed voting base to make the right decisions!
 
^Since when did Aromatherapy/Heal Bell have no OU users? Blissey is an excellent user of Aromatherapy, and Celebi can use Heal Bell. While they often don't use said moves, the fact remains that they can use them and are very good at it when they do.
 

Stellar

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Two isn't exactly a giant number. I didn't specify how many I considered to be a "lack". And that isn't even my argument, its just discussion points. No reason to argue with my above post lol.
 

Korski

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I think it's really dependent on what combo of those moves CAP 8 gets.

I would say Heal Bell/Aromatherapy be Allowed only if it doesn't get a SpD-boosting move outside of Stockpile, in which case I don't see why we shouldn't give it Refresh as well. It's bulky enough to use it, but so are Celebi, Pyroak, and Blissey, and even they don't run it much, so why not? What's wrong with another pokemon who can but probably won't run HB/Roma? Also, giving it something like Cosmic Power or Calm Mind and a way to heal its own poison status 8 times (or even, god forbidding, a recovery move) makes for an outrageous tank that should maybe be avoided.

Curse is lame and no one will use it over other things, so Allowed.

FT/MS for Unallowed to keep Blissey and Snorlax as solid counters, although I don't feel all that strongly about it.

Taunt for Allowed because it's situational at best and really only serves to shut down the (slow) Toxic users who would come in when CAP is too beastly to kill with attacks alone. Again, however, Taunt for Unallowed if it gets Cosmic Power/CM, as most Toxic users are slower and that's pretty much gg if CAP has already become an impregnable wall.

Light Screen or Reflect for Allowed. If people want both, they'll run a dual-screener, which we don't need another of. Which screen it gets will most likely depend on what pokemon people will want to surround a supportive CAP 8 spread with. I personally would prefer Light Screen, especially if CAP gets no other SpD-boosting moves.

Cosmic Power for Allowed so long as it doesn't get status healing (outside Rest), Calm Mind, Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up, or any SpA-boosting move bar Charge Beam (which it has). It's a good move for walling, but overpowered when attack boosts are also on the table, so I say we solidify more of CAP's movepool before we make a decision on this.

Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis as its only form of recovery outside of Rest/Leftovers for Unallowed unless we want Tyranitar on every team or a million CAP 8-centered Sunny Day teams. I honestly don't see a problem with insta-recovery. CAP 8 has 108/118/70 defenses vs. Hippowdon's 108/118/72, which gets Slack Off and doesn't abuse it to a game-breaking degree. Sure, CAP 8 has better typing, but its counters hit way harder than Hippo's, so it won't always come in handy.

SR for Allowed because so many pokemon do it better, but it could be a good filler move (although I don't really see filler moves happenning here).

Yawn for Allowed to shut down sweeps that could otherwise end the game. CAP's bulk makes it able to switch in on stat-upped pokemon and get at least a move in before it gets dumptrucked back into its pokeball. Again, it won't be seen often, but it has use.
 

Stellar

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Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis as its only form of recovery outside of Rest/Leftovers for Unallowed unless we want Tyranitar on every team or a million CAP 8-centered Sunny Day teams. I honestly don't see a problem with insta-recovery. CAP 8 has 108/118/70 defenses vs. Hippowdon's 108/118/72, which gets Slack Off and doesn't abuse it to a game-breaking degree. Sure, CAP 8 has better typing, but its counters hit way harder than Hippo's, so it won't always come in handy.
This is the only one of your points that I really take issue with. I don't think that having a recovery move that is dependent on the weather will cause a noticeable increase in Tyranitar / Hippowodon usage. Limiting one Pokemon's recovery isn't a good enough reason to use an entire team slot for a certain Pokemon. If anything, usage of these Pokemon will rise due to the addition of this Pokemon as a whole, due to Tyranitar / Hippowdon's ability to counter or check CAP8. It is also important to note that Tyranitar sits at #7 on the CAP usage charts with a usage of 19.49%, meaning it will be on a large portion of CAP teams anyway.

What I'm saying is that I don't understand how you can be against Morning Sun / Moonlight / Synthesis, but for an instant 50% recovery move with no down-side.
 
I dunno if you know this (you implied otherwise) but it increases Special Defense as well. It's the equivilant of Cosmic Power. A few boosts and it will become very difficult to actually finish off from either attacking side (though realistically the boosts won't always be there). As such I say controversial at the highest, as I'm against Calm Mind for the Special Defense increase, but Hippowdon doesn't exactly utilize it religiously.
Yes, I know that Stockpile increases Special Defense. When I said defense, I meant defense in general. Cosmic Power isn't the same as Stockpile. You can only use it three times maximum, while you can keep buffing up your defenses with Cosmic Power. There are ways of stopping it from achieving this though, from buffing up your own Pokemon as they stock up, taunt it, phaze it, there's many. I don't think it's broken at all. Calm Mind not only raises SpD, but SpA aswell, which is why I think that should be unallowed. But Stockpile has no harm in it.
 

Korski

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Originally Posted by Fat Stellar
What I'm saying is that I don't understand how you can be against Morning Sun / Moonlight / Synthesis, but for an instant 50% recovery move with no down-side.
I was using Hippowdon as a precedent for why we don't need to limit CAP 8's recovery to weather-based alternatives. If CAP 8 gets no SpD-boosting moves, then it's still stuck with base 70 SpD, easy pickings for strong special attackers. And, considering CAP is so threatened by one of the strongest attacks in the game, Draco Meteor, especially from CAP server's #2, Latias, who has a 28% usage and runs DM 50% of the time. Or Salamence, #4, who almost always runs Outrage (if not, EQ), or Starmie, #6, who runs Ice Beam 86% of the time. What I'm saying is that there are bigger threats that are more common than Tyranitar and make insta-recovery useless (and that's just the top 7), so insta-recovery is not overpowered, imo.
 

Coronis

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Ok, all the people using the server statistics should stop. We only had the regular cap ladder for a week, I don't think that is enough to make a good assessment of the cap metagame.

I'm fine with this thing getting Recover/Slack Off, and if anybody is worried about having something like CM or Cosmic Power on the same moveset, we could make it that you need to choose between a boosting move and instant recovery.
 
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