i agree with a lot of this except the surf part.
i hadn't thought of vacuum wave, that could really work.
minor: you say a lot of electric-types get volt tackle, but it is pichu, pikachu, and raichu exclusive
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter cyberzero
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i hadn't thought of vacuum wave, that could really work.
minor: you say a lot of electric-types get volt tackle, but it is pichu, pikachu, and raichu exclusive
How is an 80 BP stab priority move overpowering anyway? Also why are we thinking of restricting it to just Hydro Pump or Overheat, why can we just give the damn thing Surf and Flamethrower and not the 120 BP+ moves?
While I could easily argue specifically against an 80 priority STAB, the bigger question is "how does it help CAP8 meet the concept?" The New Attack Policy Review really hit the nail on the head; we shouldn't give out new moves "just because."
the arctic one said:
A new move is not going to help with the Neglected Ability concept in any way, so it should not even be an option.DougJustDoug said:
Concept in within itself was just a clever plan to get a certain ability on a Pokemon, I can only assume that after that was accomplished everything else is really just add-on. Even if the idea behind wasn't totally selfish, how those any sort of priority move help CAP8 as a whole?
should we have a poll about surf or fire blast? having both would a bit broken.
Aura sphere and Focus blast are basically banned now. A surf vs. fire blast poll would be good.
Aura sphere and Focus blast are basically banned now. A surf vs. fire blast poll would be good.
...damnit. Well lets keep the move discussion going then.
I am going to say that adding any new move, let alone a new BP 80 priority move, is pointless.
Special Dragon and Special Electric already have great moves. This isn't like with Kitsunoh where we were stuck with Shadow Claw as STAB. T-Bolt, Dischare, Thunder, Dragon Pulse, and Draco Meteor offer plenty of high base power options. Besides, most of CAP8's best counters are slow anyway, so, even at base 80, you would be beating them out with T-Bolt anyway.
Priority is overrated anyway, this thing is bulky enough that it can take hits; it doesn't need any priority.
Special Dragon and Special Electric already have great moves. This isn't like with Kitsunoh where we were stuck with Shadow Claw as STAB. T-Bolt, Dischare, Thunder, Dragon Pulse, and Draco Meteor offer plenty of high base power options. Besides, most of CAP8's best counters are slow anyway, so, even at base 80, you would be beating them out with T-Bolt anyway.
Priority is overrated anyway, this thing is bulky enough that it can take hits; it doesn't need any priority.
Would we want Revenankh to be able to counter CaP8? If so, we should move Psychic and Luster Purge to unallowed.
EDIT: changed my stance on Shadow Ball. It's not that much more damaging than STAB Tbolt, anyways. Mist Ball should be fine, too.
I would support Focus Punch being allowed. While it might give opponents pause before blindly switching their Ttar or Blissey in, it requires prediction to use. Unless, of course, you use subpunch, but then your opponent knows half your moveset, and a Focus Punch off 60 base attack is not all that threatening. Also, Revenankh and Cresselia laugh at any set with Focus Punch.
Would Paleo Wave be an option, or does that have to stay Stratagem-only?
Ice Beam and Blizzard seem like reasonable moves. They hit a few specific threats, but it doesn't look too gamebreaking. No reason for them not to be allowed.
Explosion is on the list twice, as both allowed and pending. Personally, I'd like to see it unallowed. We have enough bulky tanks who can explode. Do we need one more? The same applies to Selfdestruct.
EDIT: changed my stance on Shadow Ball. It's not that much more damaging than STAB Tbolt, anyways. Mist Ball should be fine, too.
I would support Focus Punch being allowed. While it might give opponents pause before blindly switching their Ttar or Blissey in, it requires prediction to use. Unless, of course, you use subpunch, but then your opponent knows half your moveset, and a Focus Punch off 60 base attack is not all that threatening. Also, Revenankh and Cresselia laugh at any set with Focus Punch.
Would Paleo Wave be an option, or does that have to stay Stratagem-only?
Ice Beam and Blizzard seem like reasonable moves. They hit a few specific threats, but it doesn't look too gamebreaking. No reason for them not to be allowed.
Explosion is on the list twice, as both allowed and pending. Personally, I'd like to see it unallowed. We have enough bulky tanks who can explode. Do we need one more? The same applies to Selfdestruct.
Why are we trying to limit this Pokemon's movepool to only STAB moves. If CAP8 only gets Electric and Dragon type moves as viable sweeping moves, then no offense, but it will suck like ****. Most other dragons are known for their wide sweeping movepools and I don't see why CAP8 should be any other. Almost all the dragons, apart from Kingdra I believe get Fire Blast and have at least useful SAtk scores, if not as great as CAP8's, and most get access to Surf or another water move and often other moves as well. Heck, even TTar and Gyarados get Flamethrower and Thunderbolt despite their obviously physical spread and typing. I mean, if CAP8 relies on two weak STAB types to attack, and with unreliable and detrimental moves like Overheat and Hydro Pump, CAP8 is going to be very easy to counter. CAP8 needs moves like Surf and Flamethrower to be a reasonable offensive threat.
Where is Ice Beam on any of the lists? IT doesnt seem to be all that bad of a choice, it hits some things for good damage, but isn't gamebreaking.
Ok I'm just going to put this out there. I do not believe that we should add a new move to this Pokemon. I realize that due to the communal nature of this project, a lot of the inexperienced users who are joining will be vouching for a new move just because of the "cool" factor. However, the aim of the project is competitive after all. We do not need to add a new move to every single Pokemon that is created by the project. This should not become precedent. As a few people have already stated, see: hydrolphin, there really is no need for a new move on this Pokemon. It is perfectly fine with what it has. Both types, Dragon and Electric, have access to great attacks with high base power, Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, and Dragon Pulse. Adding a new attack doesn't really help accomplish the "concept" of this CAP either. There isn't a single move that can take direct advantage of Shield Dust (unless you go off into some nonsense like a move that does physical damage and locks the target into their last move for 2-3 turns which might be of some use against like Iron Head Jirachi or something, but that is just a bit over the top).
With that out of the way, I'm going to give my opinions on a few things here.
Changed fire. Fire-type attacks aren't really overpowered and don't really harm any of the counters, so allowed.
Ice Punch would be acceptable methinks although this would be flavor because there really is no use competitively for Ice Punch on this thing. I don't really like Ice Beam because it still hits Rhyperior and stuff.
Earth Power. Well, I think this too should be unallowed. Magnezone can function pretty well as a check if this thing lacks a solid Ground or Fire type move. Once again, you can use HP Ground or HP Fire if you really want to hit Magnezone that badly. Earthquake unalloyed for similar reasons.
Focus Blast and Focus Punch (and I guess Aura Sphere for that matter) don't really have a place on this Pokemon when many of the possible counters could be taken out by these two moves. Yes, max SpA Focus Blast only manages 36-43% against standard Blissey, but all the other counters (bar Cresselia) take much more than that. I do think that Vacuum Wave should be allowed. It would be nice to have some priority on this thing (and just fyi, whoever said that priority isn't that great has issues imo), while not having the insane base power of Focus Punch and Focus Blast. Although I'll admit at the moment that I can't really think of any use that Vacuum Wave would have, I don't see any reason that it would be detrimental. In much the same vein, I think that Close Combat / Hammer Arm / Sky Uppercut / etc should be unallowed. Oh and Superpower. Don't forget Superpower for unallowed. Brick Break isn't going to do much to the aforementioned counters due to its low base power and the CAP's low Attack stat, so that should be allowed.
Ok changed my mind on this one after doing some calcs. Hydro Pump from 355 SpA Stat CAP against max HP Tar does only 43-50% and has a chance to miss, plus you can run bulkier tars so I think this is ok. No one will actually use Rhyperior or steelix to counter this so uuhhh. I am going to say Surf / Hydro Pump are allowed.
I don't see any thing that could possibly be wrong with any of the dragon-type special attacking options (meteor / pulse / breath / etc / etc).
Grass Knot should be unallowed because of the same reasons as water-type attacks. (And it kills Swampert which is a decent swich-in to non-draco meteor sets!)
I don't see anything wrong with Mist Ball but that is purely flavor and should be left to the latter stages of the process.
Things like Ominous Wind / Silver Wind / Ancientpower are fine methinks.
No reason to ixnay Shadow Ball that I can see, so allowed.
All Special Electric-type attacks (including Zap Cannon) are a go.
I think Flash Cannon would be a pretty good option (yes it does hit the rock-types that I just mentioned for se damage but it has pretty horrible coverage elsewhere).
U-turn should also be unallowed. Doesn't really fit with anything this Pokemon has going for it.
Extremespeed for allowed? It might be useful against random things like weakened Flygon or such, but I don't see this being too overpowered either. Can't really back this up with sound logic so you might just ignore this part.
I'm completely against Self-destruct and Explosion for obvious reasons (such as having the ability to instantly take out Blissey in the same way as Gengar).
Volt Tackle is going to be doing shit-all to the counters and it would be nice to have "some" physical options on this thing, so I'm going to say allowed. I'm also going to say Brave Bird should be allowed just because it helps with Celebi I guess while not being damaging to the other counters. Yes, I know this sounds weird but I don't really think this matters much! You can run about 100 Atk EVs and a neutral nature and possibly 2HKO Celebi after SR (but of course it has Recover so this is kinda moot??).
Dragon Rush for allowed because it's just a less accurate medium between outrage and dragon claw. Don't really see any issues here.
With that out of the way, I'm going to give my opinions on a few things here.
Changed fire. Fire-type attacks aren't really overpowered and don't really harm any of the counters, so allowed.
Ice Punch would be acceptable methinks although this would be flavor because there really is no use competitively for Ice Punch on this thing. I don't really like Ice Beam because it still hits Rhyperior and stuff.
Earth Power. Well, I think this too should be unallowed. Magnezone can function pretty well as a check if this thing lacks a solid Ground or Fire type move. Once again, you can use HP Ground or HP Fire if you really want to hit Magnezone that badly. Earthquake unalloyed for similar reasons.
Focus Blast and Focus Punch (and I guess Aura Sphere for that matter) don't really have a place on this Pokemon when many of the possible counters could be taken out by these two moves. Yes, max SpA Focus Blast only manages 36-43% against standard Blissey, but all the other counters (bar Cresselia) take much more than that. I do think that Vacuum Wave should be allowed. It would be nice to have some priority on this thing (and just fyi, whoever said that priority isn't that great has issues imo), while not having the insane base power of Focus Punch and Focus Blast. Although I'll admit at the moment that I can't really think of any use that Vacuum Wave would have, I don't see any reason that it would be detrimental. In much the same vein, I think that Close Combat / Hammer Arm / Sky Uppercut / etc should be unallowed. Oh and Superpower. Don't forget Superpower for unallowed. Brick Break isn't going to do much to the aforementioned counters due to its low base power and the CAP's low Attack stat, so that should be allowed.
Ok changed my mind on this one after doing some calcs. Hydro Pump from 355 SpA Stat CAP against max HP Tar does only 43-50% and has a chance to miss, plus you can run bulkier tars so I think this is ok. No one will actually use Rhyperior or steelix to counter this so uuhhh. I am going to say Surf / Hydro Pump are allowed.
I don't see any thing that could possibly be wrong with any of the dragon-type special attacking options (meteor / pulse / breath / etc / etc).
Grass Knot should be unallowed because of the same reasons as water-type attacks. (And it kills Swampert which is a decent swich-in to non-draco meteor sets!)
I don't see anything wrong with Mist Ball but that is purely flavor and should be left to the latter stages of the process.
Things like Ominous Wind / Silver Wind / Ancientpower are fine methinks.
No reason to ixnay Shadow Ball that I can see, so allowed.
All Special Electric-type attacks (including Zap Cannon) are a go.
I think Flash Cannon would be a pretty good option (yes it does hit the rock-types that I just mentioned for se damage but it has pretty horrible coverage elsewhere).
U-turn should also be unallowed. Doesn't really fit with anything this Pokemon has going for it.
Extremespeed for allowed? It might be useful against random things like weakened Flygon or such, but I don't see this being too overpowered either. Can't really back this up with sound logic so you might just ignore this part.
I'm completely against Self-destruct and Explosion for obvious reasons (such as having the ability to instantly take out Blissey in the same way as Gengar).
Volt Tackle is going to be doing shit-all to the counters and it would be nice to have "some" physical options on this thing, so I'm going to say allowed. I'm also going to say Brave Bird should be allowed just because it helps with Celebi I guess while not being damaging to the other counters. Yes, I know this sounds weird but I don't really think this matters much! You can run about 100 Atk EVs and a neutral nature and possibly 2HKO Celebi after SR (but of course it has Recover so this is kinda moot??).
Dragon Rush for allowed because it's just a less accurate medium between outrage and dragon claw. Don't really see any issues here.
So you're suggestion that CAP8 get's no fire moves because of only Scizor? Do we really need to limit it's movepool to save one Pokemon's metallic ass?
They're only three Pokemon who are rock and/or ground type within it's counter list and only two of them are severely hurt by Water moves so Surf/Hydro Pump aren't all that frightening.
Why does Magnezone needs to be a check towards CAP8, hell when did Magnezone become so important in checking CAP pokemon anyway? Personally I believe Earthquake is reasonable enough to be allowed within CAP8's movepool.
They're only three Pokemon who are rock and/or ground type within it's counter list and only two of them are severely hurt by Water moves so Surf/Hydro Pump aren't all that frightening.
Why does Magnezone needs to be a check towards CAP8, hell when did Magnezone become so important in checking CAP pokemon anyway? Personally I believe Earthquake is reasonable enough to be allowed within CAP8's movepool.
I'm against giving this thing any fire moves if Cyzirs design wins, though I'm all for some water moves (it IS a cloud, hell, this things ability could be drizzle if we wanted it to) though moreso hydro pump than surf, for reasons that should be obvious.
However, I'm against giving fire moves to cyzirs design, because well... it's a cloud with some lightning bolts...
Cartoons! design however, I could see using any variety of fire moves, in fact, it's almost more fitting then the electricity, though not surf because other than lanturn, no electric type learns surf (and Pikachu, which I wouldn't count :/)
Going back on that, it works against using hydro pump on cyzirs design as well (but I don't feel the arguement is quite as strong), as no electric types learn hydro pump except for lanturn and rotom-w =/
However, I'm against giving fire moves to cyzirs design, because well... it's a cloud with some lightning bolts...
Cartoons! design however, I could see using any variety of fire moves, in fact, it's almost more fitting then the electricity, though not surf because other than lanturn, no electric type learns surf (and Pikachu, which I wouldn't count :/)
Going back on that, it works against using hydro pump on cyzirs design as well (but I don't feel the arguement is quite as strong), as no electric types learn hydro pump except for lanturn and rotom-w =/
It's a living thundercloud with freaking lightning bolts for heads, "screw the rules, I have green hair" logic applies to this bastard. Also isn't Castform believed to be some kind of cloud?
a cookie for anyone who knows where that line comes from
Atyroki, I don't think flavour should be a factor. I think that Surf and Flamethrower should be allowed, they give very useful type coverage, the first against Ground, the second against both Steel and Ice. This lets it protect itself against otherwise easy checks. Outrage should be ok as well since it doesnt have as much Phys Atk. to play off, and would mostly be found on gimmick sets. Same for Dragon Rush and Volt Tackle. I think that Vacuum Wave should be allowed, because even though it's Fighting whick menaces most counters, it has a low BP. Explosion would be a bit cheap against Blissey who well walls it otherwise. Flash Cannon looks great, and allows you to menace TTar moderatly, but doesnt do much elsewhere. But seeing as it's supposed to be a counter, Grass Knot should be left alone. Mist Ball looks fine too.
Lol, this pretty much sums up my thoughts.
PS it's from yu gi oh the abridged series (one of the manyflashbacks to the 1st ep) cookie time:D
The last epidsode was one of the best for this season. I couldn't stop laughin'.
And to back to the subject, maybe someone should point out Manectric to him for a lil' help.
Yeah, considering the sprite is a thundercloud; surf, focus punch, brick break, explosion, and hammer arm are probably out of the discussion.
Why do people keep insisting on using flavour as an argument?
CAP doesn't give a shit about flavour, apart from the Art/Sprite polls. We could give it all of these moves, if we wanted to.
EDIT: Bringing things back on topic, Focus Blast and Aura Sphere to Unallowed. I'd also prefer to see Surf/Hydro Pump as the main non-STAB moves.
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