CAP 8 CAP 8 - Counters Discussion

[pkmn-taicho321]

If this guy got fire blast and surf, what would counter it?

Tyranitar still does a damn good job. And you're assuming CAP will be running a set that is Damaging move inclusive. As defensive and slow as it is I doubt Choice Specs will be a common option. Calm Mind means at least one move gets left.

 

[Hegna]

Magnet Rise doesn't nullify your existing ability, it just gives you Ground immunity for 5 turns at the cost of a moveslot, and the need to set it up again once it expires or you switch out. It's not even remotely close to using Levitate as the ability.

Weird, the description I read on serebii (here) said it swapped your ability to levitate, my mistake then, sorry about that.

 

[Derek(PUK)]

Tyranitar still does a damn good job. And you're assuming CAP will be running a set that is Damaging move inclusive. As defensive and slow as it is I doubt Choice Specs will be a common option. Calm Mind means at least one move gets left.

Yeah, judging by the moves discussion its probably going to go fire / dragon /electric. The water move will be left out probably.

 

[Ybbob]

First, a list of pokemon who should utterly obliterate it given a standard non-boosting set or a great coverage move:

Counters:
Rhyperior
Tyranitar
Steelix
Blissey
Snorlax
Regice
Cresselia

These pokemon are either generally bulky enough to survive two or three hits in a row from Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt, and can either hit for super-effective damage, phaze out, utilize reliable recovery, or in general stop a sweep cold. Rhyperior is the most suspect but since it is usually played in a Sandstorm environment it is in truth much less so.

Checks:

There are infinitely more checks than there are hard counters. Electric/Dragon is particularly vulnerable to revenge killing from any of the above and the following:

Dugtrio
Salamence
Latias
Flygon
Heatran
Mamoswine
Hippowdon
Weavile
Swampert (Swampert is not listed above because it lacks reliable recovery and cannot boost its SDef via Sandstorm)

Now all these checks and counters only take into consideration Electric and Dragon attack moves. Surf/Hydro Pump eliminate a significant portion of the Ground type counters and Tyranitar to an extent, whereas Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat eliminate Steelix and Regice specifically. Magnet Rise makes slower ground types unreliable revenge killers or even counters, since their best alternate recourse tends to be low-powered Ice moves or Hidden Power.

There are more pokemon that situationally counter, such as HP Ice Magnezone that switches into Draco Meteor, but generally speaking Zone is slower, both its STABs are resisted (Tbolt 4x), and since CAP8 is faster it will win in an SE HP vs. SE HP war.

CAP8 might be given Explosion/Focus Punch or at least Focus Blast which can be a good surprise attack vs. it's counters. TTar is definately the prime threat as is Magnezone(with HP Ice) and Blissey/Snorlax can wall this off pretty well. The standard walls like Bronzong and Cresselia can also survive this, but I don't think they can cripple CAP8. If CAP8 gets any stat-boosting moves(likely Calm Mind or a defensive boost) then it can set up on Zong/Cresselia and can survive an explosion from Zong too. I agree with your revenge-killing list, although I will have to say if CAP8 can annihalate(sp.) the slower threats if they are unscarfed, IE Heatran/Swampert.

This really depends on CAP8's movepool, as whether this Pokemon gets Fire/Grass moves or Water/Ice can play a key role in determining it's counters, and several other moves are real wildcards, primarily Focus Blast/Punch and Explosion.

 

[familyguyman]

If CAP8 lacks a Fire or Water move and Focus Blast/Earth Power, Steelix would make a great check. Steelix can take any physical attack CAP8 will throw at him as well as Draco Meteor and any Electric Attack all day long and strike back with solid Earthquakes. Heatran gets a nod launches strong Earth Powers on CAP8's weaker defense. Any of the the other dragons out speed and destroy with Draco Meteor. Base 80 speed is prime for a Scarf which means CAP8 could be locked into an Electric attack letting ol' Dugtrio get a kill. Flygon gets special mention, coming in on Electric and destroying with Earthquake before CAP8 can use a dragon attack.

So, my quick list is:

Current OU Hard Counters:
Flygon
Heatran
Blissey
Snorlax
Mamoswine

Hard Counters (Move Dependant)
Lanturn
Jolteon
Electivire
Steelix
Magnezone

Revenge Kill:
Dugtrio

 

[bear]

Flygon cant take dragon attacks.

 

[Not Scicky]

Maybe not, but he can switch into thunderbolts and hit back hard =/

 

[Ybbob]

There are already many mentions so I'll actually name a few not-yet-mentioned-ones.

1) Regice
High Special Defense to take its attacks.
STAB Ice hit Super Effective against its low Special Defense.
What else is there to it? It hits the weakspot and takes the merits of Special Attack like nothing with its massive Special Defense (base 200).

2) Probopass
Hits its weakness with Super Effective Earthpower.
Switch into its Dragon attacks easily.
Can wall it if it doesn't have HP Fighting or HP Ground.
High Special Defense.
Uses Special Attack against CAP8's lower Special Defense.

3) Jolteon
Switches into any electric attacks easily and hit with its strong HP Ice that targets CAP8's lower Special Defense. Jolteon's Special Attack is very nice, too.

4) Lanturn
Great Special Sponge, can heal when switch into any Electric attacks then cripple it with Thunder Wave or hit it with Ice Beam.
I'll add more when I think more.

All of these except Jolteon, while good counters, are pretty horrible otherwise in OU battle and will drag down the team. I think the main counters are the ones that are good by themselves rather then existing to counter a couple Pokemon.

And it's pretty likely that CAP8 will get Fire, if not Water as well, so really the list is limited to Blissey, Snorlax, TTar and Swampert as the best counters. A slightly weakened Swampert would get raped by Draco Meteor, so the main special walls and TTar are the best options for a straight on hard counter. Thankfully, they're plenty and common in teams unlike some of the others suggested. Heatran would work, but only if CAP8 didn't get Surf or Hydro Pump.

 

[bear]

A hard counter has to be able to come in and take anything it can dish out and counter it.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I agree with grizzly_bearz for the most part. Deck Knight referring to Flygon as a "check" rather than a "hard counter" is more correct.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Heatran would be considered a check even if he didn't have Water moves. Tran wouldn't like taking stab TB to the face all the time not to mention that it would have to watch out for Hidden Power Ground. They're also DD set with EQ/Cross Chop to worry about.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Heatran would be considered a check even if he didn't have Water moves. Tran wouldn't like taking stab TB to the face all the time not to mention that it would have to watch out for Hidden Power Ground. They're also DD set with EQ/Cross Chop to worry about.

I don't really know were you see this thing getting cross chop. It's a rather exclusively physical move for CAP8. Not to mention people are having problems with FP and Focus Blast in the attacking move discussion thread, and dd/EQ/FP/Sub isn't very scary at all coverage rise. Gengar is totally immune. It's looking to me as if people are heading towards Swampert as this guys main counter just as long as Grass Knot doesn't get into his move pool.

 

[Objection]

I don't really know were you see this thing getting cross chop. It's a rather exclusively physical move for CAP8. Not to mention people are having problems with FP and Focus Blast in the attacking move discussion thread, and dd/EQ/FP/Sub isn't very scary at all coverage rise. Gengar is totally immune. It's looking to me as if people are heading towards Swampert as this guys main counter just as long as Grass Knot doesn't get into his move pool.

I'm assuming FP = Focus Punch by the Gengar immunity comment, in which case why would anyone run a fighting-type move and a ground-type move on the same set, let alone as their only two attacks?

Also, with regards to discussing counters, are we having to assume that this pokemon can have any moves and any number of moves it likes? So is a counter only a counter if it can switch in on and beat CAP8 running Thunderbolt/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Surf/Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Earthquake/Close Combat/Focus Blast/Outrage/Dragon Dance/Calm Mind/Substitute/etc?

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I'm assuming FP = Focus Punch by the Gengar immunity comment, in which case why would anyone run a fighting-type move and a ground-type move on the same set, let alone as their only two attacks?

I was making up that set as an example because someone thought up a dd/CrossChop/EQ set, so wasn't my idea. I was just pointing out how lame it was, and how Cross Chop wasn't going to get in so the only possible set like it would be dd/sub/fp/eq

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I'm assuming FP =
Also, with regards to discussing counters, are we having to assume that this pokemon can have any moves and any number of moves it likes? So is a counter only a counter if it can switch in on and beat CAP8 running Thunderbolt/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Surf/Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Earthquake/Close Combat/Focus Blast/Outrage/Dragon Dance/Calm Mind/Substitute/etc?

No, this discussion is to help out the choice of moves by deciding what "should" counter and/or check CaP8. Those choices are then carried over into the move thread where we ensure CaP8 is not given moves that will nullify it's chosen counters.

First, a list of pokemon who should utterly obliterate it given a standard non-boosting set or a great coverage move:

Counters:
Rhyperior
Tyranitar
Steelix
Blissey
Snorlax
Regice
Cresselia

These pokemon are either generally bulky enough to survive two or three hits in a row from Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt, and can either hit for super-effective damage, phaze out, utilize reliable recovery, or in general stop a sweep cold. Rhyperior is the most suspect but since it is usually played in a Sandstorm environment it is in truth much less so.

Checks:

There are infinitely more checks than there are hard counters. Electric/Dragon is particularly vulnerable to revenge killing from any of the above and the following:

Dugtrio
Salamence
Latias
Flygon
Heatran
Mamoswine
Hippowdon
Weavile
Swampert (Swampert is not listed above because it lacks reliable recovery and cannot boost its SDef via Sandstorm)

Now all these checks and counters only take into consideration Electric and Dragon attack moves. Surf/Hydro Pump eliminate a significant portion of the Ground type counters and Tyranitar to an extent, whereas Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat eliminate Steelix and Regice specifically. Magnet Rise makes slower ground types unreliable revenge killers or even counters, since their best alternate recourse tends to be low-powered Ice moves or Hidden Power.

There are more pokemon that situationally counter, such as HP Ice Magnezone that switches into Draco Meteor, but generally speaking Zone is slower, both its STABs are resisted (Tbolt 4x), and since CAP8 is faster it will win in an SE HP vs. SE HP war.

Just wanted to say that you, Deck Knight, have been bang on about almost everything in not only this thread, but in the attack move thread as well. Great job, with you around I don't even have to open my trap about anything :).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't really know were you see this thing getting cross chop. It's a rather exclusively physical move for CAP8. Not to mention people are having problems with FP and Focus Blast in the attacking move discussion thread, and dd/EQ/FP/Sub isn't very scary at all coverage rise. Gengar is totally immune. It's looking to me as if people are heading towards Swampert as this guys main counter just as long as Grass Knot doesn't get into his move pool.

How is being an exclusive move have any bearing what a CAP creature get? Deck Knight mention Cross Chop within a post on physical moves he would like to make allowed and/or support and I just mention Cross Chop on the off chance it gets it. Even if it doesn't they're still EQ/HP Ground to worry about.

BTW you don't need to have Sub in order to use Focus Punch. It takes alot more predicition skills to use without a Sub, but it's still possible.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Do Revenakh and Pyroak count at least as checks? Someone above offered calcs for Revenakh, and I haven't seen them contested. I would run some myself but I'm running to classes at the moment.

 

[Lostmyth]

This thing would be perfect for countering togekiss, super-effective and the para-flinch won't work on it. I think that jolteon would be a nice counter since it has high speed, special attack, and OK special defense. Speed, and special defence is something that CaP 8 pokemon is lacking.

 

[Derek(PUK)]

So, my quick list is:

Current OU Hard Counters:
Flygon

what? this guy has dragon moves dontchaknow?

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

This thing would be perfect for countering togekiss, super-effective and the para-flinch won't work on it. I think that jolteon would be a nice counter since it has high speed, special attack, and OK special defense. Speed, and special defence is something that CaP 8 pokemon is lacking.

But seriously what jolteon makes any SpDef investment? And once Jolt is there what can it do? HP Ice maybe but with enough Hp investment CAP8 can survive that and OHKO no problem. Jolt's STAB bounces off of CAP8 like school lunch meat off of the Caf floor.

 

[petrie911]

Do Revenakh and Pyroak count at least as checks? Someone above offered calcs for Revenakh, and I haven't seen them contested. I would run some myself but I'm running to classes at the moment.

Rev would be a counter, IMO. He's more than capable of setting up on CaP8 provided it doesn't have Psychic (or perhaps Shadow Ball).

For Pyroak, it depends. Defensive Pyroak gets walled hard by CaP8, though offensive ones can do good damage with HP Ice or EQ. Still, with CaP8 resisting both STABs, he has issues. On the other hand, CaP8 can't do a whole lot back, unless it has Sludge Bomb. So I suppose Pyroak could be a check, yes.

 

[Derek(PUK)]

Do Revenakh and Pyroak count at least as checks? Someone above offered calcs for Revenakh, and I haven't seen them contested. I would run some myself but I'm running to classes at the moment.

revenakh for sure, but pyroak doesnt really do any damage to cap8. I mean dragon pulse would wear it down for sure, while pyroak cant really do any thing to it.

 

[Plus]

What does Revenankh even do to it? Hammer Arm? That's a horrible move. Considering you gave this Hippowdon defenses, it won't be doing that much. Furthermore Thunderbolt/Dragon Pulse would wear down Rev faster than it could retaliate with BU+Hammer Arm.

 

[Coronis]

And even if you use a gimmick Rev with Ice Punch, you're still going to lose out.

 

[petrie911]

Standard Revenankh is 4-5HKO'd by thunderbolt for spreads that don't invest heavily in special attack, and ones that do can't even manage a 3HKO. This gives him an excellent opportunity to start bulking up. Hammer Arm alone may not do much to CaP8, but a +4 one is a 2HKO.