CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 10a (Attack Moves Discussion)

[tennisace]

READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING.

Break the Mold-Click here to see the full post.

Name: Break the Mold

Description:
An OU viable pokemon that goes completely against the stereotypes of its typing.

Type: Rock

Offensive/Defensive Bias: Offensive 20-40
Physical/Special Bias: Special -20 and lower
Base Stat Rating: Very Good
Base Stats:90/60/65/120/70/130 Speed Last
Primary Ability: Levitate
Secondary Ability:Technician

Art By yourDeadGrandad

Take 2 guys, I messed up last time, and it was already turning into a shitstorm.

In this thread we discuss what offensive options we want to give our Pokemon. Please note no complete movesets are allowed to be posted. There will be another thread for that when attacking moves have been decided. Also, no support/flavor moves should be discussed in here either. Support moves are moves that don't do damage, or their main purpose isn't damage. This includes Rapid Spin, U-turn, and anything else that is affected by Taunt.

Here is the starting list:
Power Gem
Earth Power
Ancientpower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Flamethrower
Blizzard
Thunder
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Energy Ball
Grass Knot
Overheat
Dragon Pulse

List of Moves to vote on:
See Post that says I'll edit later.

New Move List to vote on:
Special Fire type QA Clone
Rock Type Aura Sphere Clone

Try to keep flavor out of your arguments. If its a side comment or something, fine, but don't make flavor your main point.

If you suggest a move, I want to know what it will help this Pokemon with, and what it would help it beat. Same goes for the reverse arguments. The most controversial will be polled on. If it doesn't get on the poll, its fair game for the movepools. I'll be putting as much as possible on the poll. If a move isn't on this list, but isn't really controversial, it won't be on the poll. This means generic special sweeping moves that everyone gets but only a select few use if they don't get STAB.

As for new moves, obvious ones are Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Quick Attack clones. Just suggest them at will, and I guess we'll have a separate poll for them to chose one. The one thats chosen would be eligible to be in the movepool, but not required.

EDIT: A move will be on the poll if and only if there are three or more people opposed. This doesn't include new moves, thats separate. Really, if only one person says no to something, it doesn't deserve to be on the poll. Also, all moves not on my starter list that don't get 3 or more opposed are fine in the final movepool. Any move on my starter list that gets 3 or more opposed will be put to a vote, any other will be fine. This doesn't mean you need to include my list in your movepool. It's merely a conversation starter/movepool starter. So please don't say I'm taking over this project by making a list of moves that may or may not be controversial, they're all up for debate and vote, provided it meets the requirements.

You are not allowed to post lists of moves, just pick one or two moves and focus your arguments on those.

 

[Kazio32]

I'd like to saw that I don't think Blizzard or Dragon pulse will be best suted for this CaP although Icy wind is something I'd like to put up on the list for suggestions.

 

[darkie]

Why and why not?

 

[41victory]

For technician how about some Ominous/Silver Wind/ Ancient Power? The chance for +1 to all stats is great too. If Ancient power is too strong because of stab give it one of the other ones.

Thunderbolt could also work; making water types too scared to switch in and gives it good type coverage.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Everyone wants a new special rock move I know, but how bout a Fire type priority move for Rockmon? Now I know what you thinking "WTF, you dumbass!!! Why make a non-stabbed move when a stabbed move is better?". Well...the answer to that question lies in what's going to counter it. Rockmon has a shitload of possible counters for it's ass:

-Bulky Waters in generally
-Fighting/Steel/Water types with SE priority moves and/or have high enough SpD
-Special Walls like Blissey and Snorlax
-Scarfers with SE moves
-People with crappy prediction skills

Now from that list, where of those counters scare Rockmon the most? Steel Types named Lucario, Scizor, Metagross, Bronzong, and Registeel that who. Now they could come in on NVE and/ore set up move and utterly destroy you with their own stabbed move. This is where having this wonderful priority Fire move come into play. It tell those cocky incoming Steel types to fuck off as you roast their metallic asses. Here what a Fire version of QA can do to those suckers:

Life Rockmon using Fire QA on 252/0 Scizor: 76.74% - 90.7%
Tech version: 112.79% - 133.72%

Life Orb Rockmon using Fire QA on 6/0 Luke: 51.25% - 60.5%
Tech verison: 76.87% - 91.1%

Life Orb Rockmon using Fire QA on 252/0 Metagross: 32.42% - 38.46%
Tech version: 48.9% - 57.69%

Life Orb Rockmon using Fire QA on 252/128 Sassy Zong: 23.08% - 27.22%
Tech version: 33.73% - 40.24%

Life Orb Rockmon using Fire QA on 252/200 Registeel: 18.68% - 21.98%
Tech version: 27.47% - 32.42%

As you can with this seemingly weak move, it brought down two out of five main steel baddies, three if you count Meta and Techician boost. I added Bronzong and Registeel to see what they think of this move and it seem like they don't give a shit about it. This is good for people who are obsessed in finding someone to stop it will be happy to hear.

I bet you're asking me "Why make a move to specially counter just a few Pokemon?" and I answer that with other question....why use Superpower on Mamoswine? If you answer this question with "Because it allows Mamo to have a fighting chance up against Zong" than you have you answer to your question. I want to give Rockmon a fighting chance against those nasty Bullet Punching Steel types while being different. Everyone expects a stab move for CAM, but I think a priority fire move will be more helpful on Rockmon.

Don't have a prefect name for it, but I'm thinking that something to do with Flint would good. Flint(stone) was used to start fires via striking against themselves. One could say that Rockmon could use those claws to start fires via striking and/or sparking.

Flint Spark
Type: Fire
BP: 40
Accuracy: 100%
BP: 30
Priority: +1
Damage: Special
Descprition: Fire version of Quick Attack.

Here is the starting list:
Power Gem
Earth Power
Ancientpower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Flamethrower
Blizzard
Thunder
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Energy Ball
Grass Knot
Overheat
Dragon Pulse

All those moves I have no objections with and be happy if they make it onto it's movepool.

 

[Flounder]

Power Gem - I'm completely fine with power gem. 70 Base Power, STAB, don't see why we wouldn't include it on a rock type pokemon.
Earth Power - Once again, makes sense, and it's not nearly as out there as it was before Platinum. It makes sense for a special sweeping type to have such a lovely special move.
Ancientpower - Same as Power Gem, the only difference being that it's obscenely strong with Technician involved.
Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower - The only one I'm not that sure about is Thunderbolt, the only rock types that get it are oddballs like Aggron and Bastiodon.
Blizzard, Thunder, Fire Blast - Same things as above.
Focus Blast - I'm not that keen on this one. 120 BP with no drawback other than low accuracy? That sounds pretty damn powerful. I'm not a fan of it, but I'd be willing to hear arguments for it. The only thing that comes to mind is Blissey, but then again, we don't need to make a pokemon that can tear through absolutely every pokemon in OU.
Energy Ball - Fine with it, it's like an Elemental "Beam" itself.
Grass Knot - Also completely ok with this.
Overheat - ... I don't know. I'm pretty sure that even with the Sp. Atk drop, this wouldn't be the best idea. However, I'm open to debate on the matter.
Dragon Pulse - Really don't care about this one way or another.

 

[Kazio32]

People wouldn't want to keep using Blizzard or Dragon pulse but Hp ice 60 or icy wind, also I don't think CaP 5 will be capable of using those moves in the first place. Icy wind seems suitible.

 

[Elevator Music]

If this thing is getting Dark Pulse I think it's be good for it to get Shadow Ball. Both try and hit Cress and Shadow Ball has the added bonus of hitting Revenankh to stop it from switching in too easily.

Signal Beam makes a small amount of sense and deserves a mention as it guarentees this guy is able to beat Celebi one-on-one. Though it may have been able to do that already (thanks SS), depending on how light it is...

I don't really like Thunder for two reasons. First, it doesn't really hit anything that STAB Rock won't too much harder (possible exception being Skarm, who is more than likely 2HKO'd either way), and second that it's accuracy sucks in SS (which this pokemon will more than likely be completmented with a lot).

All I can think of for now.

 

[Fishin]

I'd like to suggest Focus Punch. Mainly there as a way to beat Blissey, who serves as an obvious and very potent check (variants without Calm Mind or S-Toss will lose against Sub/CM if we give that to CaP 5, but S-Toss Blissey will beat all variants without a physical attack of some sort). Since this has slightly less attack than Gengar, it's going to need to invest a decent amount of attack and/or use an attack-boosting item to even 2HKO Blissey, so it seems like a pretty fair trade-off. It's not completely out of place flavor-wise either; it could easily "punch" an enemy with the blunt side of its claws, or even its head (hell, if Wooper can use its tail to "punch", this seems pretty reasonable!).

 

[Accipender]

Giga Drain, Dragonbreath, ShockWave, and Charge Beam would be interesting.

Assuming it gets Technician, Giga Drain would be better than Energy Ball, and will have the added bonus of healing (over Energy Ball). Dragonbreath would have the same power as Dragon Pulse, but with the added effect of Parahax. ShockWave would never miss while Charge Beam would give SAtk boosts.

 

[-Zer0-]

Dragonbreath would be a cool alternative to pulse. Good to give a never used move some use.

 

[tennisace]

I'll start making a list of all the suggestions.

Also, Scizor would be the number #1 check to this Rockmon, and Lucario would be #2. I see how Lucario wins if you have LO, but if you have Specs it loses. I really think its bad for the metagame when you invent a new move SPECIFICALLY to deal with its two best checks. Sounds a bit like Mountaineer, when you don't want to deal with Stealth Rock, so we made it immune.

 

[darkie]

I don't think Focus Punch/Blast are a bad idea. Blissey is still a counter for Gengar, even with Focus Punch, and Gengar hits harder on both spectrums.

 

[hinode]

Hope this format works out okay.

Strong support for:

New Rock move. Something 90ish power sounds good to me. An Aura Sphere clone for the auto-hit is the first idea that comes to mind, given that so many people have reservations about Ancientpower due to the hax potential; why not go the other way with a anti-hax STAB attack instead?

Earth Power is the most obviously move for type coverage and probably the single best two move combo with a Rock skill. Hits Lucario, Steelix, and most other steels that resist Rock, plus stuff like Fidgit, Infernape, etc.

Flamethrower/Fire Blast gets Bronzongs coming in to ruin Rockmon's day with Gyro Ball, and should give Scizor some reason to pause before switching in (if it comes in after a kill you're hopeless). I think this is going to have enough checks in place without giving those two easy switch-ins all day long.

Ambivalent towards (willing to take arguments):

Ice Beam destroys a bunch of Ground types that can't do much to a levitating model to begin with. Looking at the 4x weaks, Gliscor really struggles to damage it with a standard set and Salamence/Skymin are weak to the STAB Rock already, so I don't think it'll be a big deal either way.

Thunderbolt does more damage than the STAB to Water types, but I'm a bit dubious that it'll be enough to really matter. Gyarados already being weak to Rock helps, as it should be reluctant to switch into this.

Focus Blast is pretty redundant with Earth Power for coverage, don't mind either way.

Dragon Pulse is never going to be used unless Kingdra makes a dramatic spike in usage, so who cares?

Opposed to:

yDG's art was cute, but Overheat feels a bit too strong for my taste here, making some 2HKOs into OHKOs on potential checks. As a minor point, it's not as commonly available as FT/FB on non-fire types.

Energy Ball/Grass Knot I'd prefer to leave out mainly to force people to run Technician if they want to hit Swampert/Gastrodon really hard. We don't need to overkill the movepool here, and it'd be good to keep some niches for Technician.

EDIT: Dragonbreath is a waste of a precious level-up slot for no type coverage and an effect better suited to something bulky. Opposing this, and pretty much any non-TM/tutor physical attack that's not pure flavor that someone might oppose.

New suggestions:

Psychic hits Revenankh on the switch-in, as well as most other Fighting types. Revenankh worries me a lot on paper with its Rock resist, massive special bulk, ShedRest, and potency when given a chance to set up. It probably won't ever get much usage due to poor type coverage, but just giving Rev and any future bulky Fighters something to think about seems like a good idea for a secondary TM option.

Mud Shot, Icy Wind, Vacuum Wave: Technician options, all three. I'm of the opinion that Tech needs some genuine secondary effects to really pull its weight as an ability, not just provide minor type coverage. These are the best I can think of on the special side... though they'd be more useful on something slower, admittedly. First two are potentially useful for nailing a scarfer on the switch-in to lower speed, and the last could finish off a +Speed Scarftran. Vacuum Wave has minor flavor issues, but I don't think anyone cares so whatever.

 

[PapaCAP]

Technician Abuse Moves
Water Pulse -his only water move. for bulky grounds if you dont want to use a grass move and be walled by steels and the like.
Icy Wind - not as strong as ice beam, but hitting a scarfmin or scarfmence with this would totally be worth the power loss. anything that values its speed will need to watch out when switching in against this guy.
Hidden Power - this topic has been run to the ground someone else can explain why
Giga Drain - a better energy ball with technician, really useful against something like Hippowdon or other Bulky Grounds that can wall ancientpower all day.
Charge Beam - Hurts gyarados badly. Yeah, even with technician its only 75 base power, but the special attack raising properties are sexy.

Blissey Killers (AKA physical movepool)

Brick Break OR Cross Chop -this guy NEEDS brick break or cross chop... which one depends on how much blissey killing power the community is willing to give this guy. I personally would prefer Brick Break.
Stone Edge - STAB stone edge is almost as strong as brick break on blissey. And, come on guys, he needs a physical movepool for gimmick physical sets!!
Explosion - suicide leads, anyone? also probably dents blissey hard


Endeavor
-A sash Countercoat + endeavor gimmick moveset seems like a pretty good strategy, given his lack of bulkiness. Endure + endeavor with something like lum or salac as well.

 

[latinoheat]

Vacuum Wave - It has enough checks, do we really need something as common as Timid Scarftran being another, also 60bp under technician.

 

[-Zer0-]

Dragon Pulse is never going to be used unless Kingdra makes a dramatic spike in usage, so who cares?

I disagree. See: Heatran.

 

[billymills]

uhh, dragon pulse heatran is rare, and hardly useful unless you are running specs HP grass or something for swampert. HpIce/earthpower is much better.

 

[hinode]

Heatran's primary STAB is resisted by every Dragon. Rockmon's primary STAB hits a weakness on the main Dragon in OU, now that Garchomp's gone.

Hitting the two types that resist Rock but not Dragon neutral is incredibly pointless.

PapaCAP: This topic is for attack moves only, as the OP indicates.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Also, Scizor would be the number #1 check to this Rockmon, and Lucario would be #2. I see how Lucario wins if you have LO, but if you have Specs it loses. I really think its bad for the metagame when you invent a new move SPECIFICALLY to deal with its two best checks. Sounds a bit like Mountaineer, when you don't want to deal with Stealth Rock, so we made it immune.

It might look that but they're been cases of Pokemon learning moves just to counter a few certain move. Mamoswine get's Superpower and what he uses it for? He using it to counter Bronzong mostly, why else use a move that lower your attack and defense on something with stellar attack strenght. That same kind of logic could be applied to my move suggestion. It's not going to hurt anyone unless I'm missing the point of having counters/checks on a given pokemon.

 

[beej]

I think that we should really be as liberal with this offensive movepool as we can afford to be, as it's been noted that Rock isn't exactly the greatest type out of the bunch and it's going to be competing with special sweepers like Azelf and Gengar for a team spot.

However, when deciding upon moves, it's important to remember exactly what potential counters would be removed. For example, Overheat will invalidate Bronzong, while Grass Knot will remove Swampert. The number of these moves should reflect what kind of a pokemon we want to make here: an incredibly top-tier sweeper like Gengar or Gyarados, a mid-OU counter-attacker like Starmie, or even somewhere lower down.

If we want to make this really fantastic, I'd say that Boltbeam is a given because it allows us to hit all bulky waters not named Swampert, Quagsire or Gastrodon (Whiscash doesn't deserve a mention) and have a high BP move to deal with Celebi. Salamence also gets hit somewhat harder than whatever Rock-type move we give this. Grass Knot is also a nice inclusion for dealing with said bulky waters that aren't affected by Thunderbolt. Notably Ground-types have been used for countering most of the offensive Rock-types, and already with these moves we remove Hippowdon, Swampert, Gliscor and Rhyperior. So I guess that's also another way we can "break the mold".

 

[Fishin]

More on Focus Punch and how much CaP 5 will have to invest to beat Blissey (note that all these calcs include Sandstorm negating Bliss's lefties):

92 EVs are required to 2HKO 252 Def, 0 HP Calm/Modest Blissey with no boosting item and a neutral nature.

44 EVs are required to 2HKO 252 Def, 0 HP Calm/Modest Blissey with Expert Belt and a negative nature (with a neutral nature, CaP 5 will always 2HKO even with no EVs).

Now, for Bold Bliss:

192 EVs are required to 2HKO 252 Def, 108 HP Bold Blissey with no boosting item and a neutral nature.

56 EVs are required to 2HKO 252 Def, 108 HP Bold Blissey with expert belt and a neutral nature.

0 EVs are required to 2HKO 252 Def, 108 HP Bold Blissey with Life Orb and a neutral nature. (note that you shouldn't be using LO with Focus Punch anyways since Bliss can just stall with Softboiled and force you to take LO damage because Focus Punch will always go second).

As you can see from the calculations, CaP 5 needs some decent investment in attack to reliably beat Bliss with Focus Punch (slightly more than Gengar); weakening its primary offensive stat and item selection in order to beat one of its counters seems like a pretty fair trade.

 

[-Zer0-]

Shock Wave:

I thought of this but....why? Why not just give it T-bolt? The reason it shouldn't have just shock wave is because technician is not its only option. It should be able to have levitate + electric move.

 

[tennisace]

I think that a priority move on this Pokemon is entirely ridiculous. You aren't happy with just 130 speed? Do we really need to beat Scarftran, Scizor, or Lucario? Scarftran can't touch you if you have Levitate to begin with, but thats another story. Its fast enough IMO, and the best ways to beat this would be spam Bullet Punch with Scizor/Lucario/Metagross, or Thunder Wave it. If you reduce the number of viable Bullet Punchers, I fear the metagame will become VERY unstable. The only thing that could remotely think of revenge killing it then is a CB Meta that invests heavily in HP and Special Defense. It may sound like I'm being over dramatic, but theres only one Pokemon that has a Priority Move that outspeeds this, and that's Extremespeed Deoxys-E. As an added bonus, this resists Extremespeed. Sure, Bronzong/Registeel/Blissey/Defensive Metagross still beats this, but I really don't see the need to give it a random Non-STAB new exclusive move, with priority, with Base 130 Speed. I think it would do more harm than good.

This brings me to my next point: Just because we're giving this Technician doesn't mean we're going to load it with moves that rely on Technician. The primary ability is Levitate. This doesn't mean that we have to solely rely on Levitate. But it also doesn't give free reign to Technician-powered moves. Hell, people are Complaining about the Ancientpower hax as it is. So we want to give it more moves like it? Charge Beam? You want to raise special attack, with a 75 Base power move? I fail to see what it hits, besides bulky waters and Skarmory. I'm also quite scared of this thing with a +1 Special attack boost, after 2 or three boosts, this will be a monster. Next, Giga Drain. I really don't want to give this guy a 90 BP move that HEALS half the damage it deals. Very few Pokemon that aren't part Grass, Bug, or Poison get it. Icy Wind and Mud Shot make no sense, it already has 130 speed, why does it need to drop other Pokemon's speed when this will likely be beaten by priority? Shock Wave is inferior to Thunderbolt, and Dragonbreath is slightly novel, but meh.

I'm in support of Focus Punch/Blast, but it doesn't matter to me. Same with Thunderbolt/Thunder, Blizzard, and Overheat. Signal Beam, Shadow Ball, and Psychic are generic special sweeping moves that offer specialized coverage away from the main set, so they're fine.

I'm supporting the Aura Sphere clone also, I think it would be fine.

PapaCAP, read the OP.

EDIT:
@G_T: Yes, but is there a case of a completely exclusive move designed to beat its counters? I rest my case.

@Beej: Rock actually IS the best attacking type in this metagame, along with Ice. Read X-Acts thread for more on that.

 

[1059860]

I suggest:

Air Cutter, Shock Wave, Dragonbreath INSTEAD of Dragon Pulse...

@ Tennis's list: Replace Dragon Pulse with Dragonbreath...
Get rid of all of the Elemental Beams AND do not give it Charge Beam because I think it'll REALLY BE OVERPOWERED... Just needs to tune down a bit...