CAP 32 - Part 5 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Zmaslan256]

I'd like to advocate for keeping Electric Surge on the slate. Assuming that a strong ESurge CAP32 suddenly makes one of the Irons broken is a stretch in my opinion, and I don't think we should limit our ability selection on the basis of an assumption like that, since we really don't know.

I also don't agree that future stages will be consumed with concerns about breaking Irons Valiant and Moth. To be honest I don't really see how it has much of an impact on stats or movepool, beyond like making pivoting moves that we would probably get anyway more useful. Even if you assume that something comes out broken after we release this mon into the metagame, the CAP32 half of the (32+valiant) or (32+moth) pair will not be the half that is broken, right? Assuming the mon is viable enough to be used unlike Pincurchin, adding or subtracting stats from 32 won't make valiant or moth more or less broken, it'll just make the pair slightly more splashable, and therefore I don't think it needs to receive a ton of discussion. If the concern is that we will be a terrain bot that isn't used for its own merits, making the mon weaker actually amplifies that problem.

Poison Touch definitely has its flaws but I think having decent coverage to hit the few poison-immune mons that come in easily (most immune mons are steel-types that are weak to our Fire STAB) is enough to make it work well, since literally everything else is afraid of coming in. I'm told Pex is not good right now, so it's basically Moth, Venom, and Garg (maybe Snael?). I think we can find a way to threaten these mons in some fashion, and everything else is afraid of our STABs, being poisoned, or both. Spreading poison while maintaining momentum is a really useful trait and perfect for our role.

Hard agree here. The only actual problem I can foresee with esurge is how CAP32 would probably compete with Tapu Koko when that mon gets added back to the game, but I don't think that should be to difficult to deal with. If that were to ever be a point of contention in the future, a solid secondary ability like Magic Guard, Pixilate, or Levitate would still allow it to function as a solid pivot if Tapu Koko ends up just being a better eterrain setter.

As for Poison Touch, I think it's surprisingly ok as a niche ability, but it's just not good enough. With average stats being the theme here, average abilities like this will likely be a waste of an ability slot in the long run, limiting 32's ability to lean towards diversity (or at the very least something interesting).

 

[dex]

The only actual problem I can foresee with esurge is how CAP32 would probably compete with Tapu Koko when that mon gets added back to the game

This goes against CAP policy. We consider the current metagame and the current metagame only with regards to the process.

a solid secondary ability like Magic Guard, Pixilate, or Levitate

Magic Guard and Levitate are both secondary banned (they're actually primary soft-banned, but it carries over) and I would think that it is pretty assured that if CAP 32 had an ability as strong as Electric Surge that it would not have some powerful secondary ability. If this is the case that needs to be made for Electric Surge, then I would ask why not just have one of these suggested secondaries as the primary ability? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Pipotchi]

• Levitate OR Earth Eater

Levitate and Earth Eater both deserve to be slated because they have been fiercely contested and its hard to pick one over the other. I'm in the Levitate group but there's no reason to make a decision here without polling them, because it has reached a stalemate with both having undeniable merit. It would honestly be sad to see an ability thrown out in the last 3 days that has no real potential of winning make it to poll when the one of the two most popular abilities that have been discussed from the beginning that have a real chance doesn't make it.

 

[TyloDK]

Levitate and Earth Eater both deserve to be slated because they have been fiercely contested and its hard to pick one over the other. I'm in the Levitate group but there's no reason to make a decision here without polling them, because it has reached a stalemate with both having undeniable merit. It would honestly be sad to see an ability thrown out in the last 3 days that has no real potential of winning make it to poll when the one of the two most popular abilities that have been discussed from the beginning that have a real chance doesn't make it.

Wouldn't that split the vote pretty hard, and make it difficult for either to win the poll?

I interpreted it as the polling option being "Earth Eater or Levitate," and the specific of which one would be chosen later. I may be wrong though.

 

[Pipotchi]

Wouldn't that split the vote pretty hard, and make it difficult for either to win the poll?

I interpreted it as the polling option being "Earth Eater or Levitate," and the specific of which one would be chosen later. I may be wrong though.

If its the latter then that maybe makes more sense/is a good idea. For the former, I dont think this causes an issue in a ranked list vote, which just compares whether things are ranked above or below it (gross simplification here). I guess people could bury one and vote the other at the top to try and fix the results, and if everyone does so then I dont know how that would affect results across multiple rounds but maybe someone like QxC4eva has a better understanding of that perhaps. But more likely you'd probably rate one highly and the other one shortly behind, if you like one of these two- which would lead to them both performing around the same compared to other choices

 

[Wulfanator]

I interpreted it as the polling option being "Earth Eater or Levitate," and the specific of which one would be chosen later. I may be wrong though.

In Scizivire's reasoning for the preliminary slate, he states that "I would only slate one of these for the final slate, but, at this point, I'm not sure which one. Both are similar with slightly different merits. I would like some additional discussion on the two abilities to see which one is generally preferred."

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To answer Sciz's question, I think Earth Eater is the better option. The only reason to consider Levitate is for immunity to other hazards. This seems pointless when Heavy-Duty Boots is going to be a necessary item for CAP32, especially given our typing and role. Realistically, the situations where these hazards impede CAP32's progress will be extremely situational. The healing provided by Earth Eater is far more likely to be relevant in battle which makes it the better candidate for slate.

 

[bigtibba]

Glad we've narrowed down the abilities to a short list. I'll give my thoughts on each one.

Magic Guard: My personal top choice. It nullifies the two biggest weaknesses to CAP 32. (hazard weakness and mediocre stats) There are three potential issues I see with Magic Guard, though. For one, it may end up being too strong. This can be easily kept in check, however, by its lower stats. Because of these low offensive stats, it is then essentially forced to run Life Orb to have any sort of offensive pressure whatsoever, which might be a bit centralizing. But even if it didn't have Magic Guard, CAP 32 would nearly always run Boots anyway to attain just one of its advantages. Regardless, CAP 32 is going to run either Life Orb or Boots every time depending on which ability we choose. There's a reason the only way a Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon can usually flourish without Boots is if it has insane power like Volcarona/Blacephalon, which won't really apply here. A third potential issue with CAP 32 is that it might be a bit boring. Magic Guard might admittedly a bit of a vanilla pick, and there have already been two CAP Pokemon with that ability. However, I think it could definitely set itself apart from the crowd, especially if it gets access to Flare Blitz.
Adaptability: As I've mentioned before, Adaptability gives basically the same boost as MGLO. While Adaptability is ever so slightly stronger, I'm not sure the difference is enough to justify it over MGLO. Additionally, MGLO provides boosts on all moves, not just STAB. While there are arguments against Magic Guard for it either being too strong, too centralizing, or too boring, in a pure vacuum this ability is simply suboptimal to Magic Guard in my opinion. One possible argument I could see is that MGLO is weaker to Knock Off than Boots+Adaptability, as once it loses its item it loses most of its offensive pressure. I think this is true to an extent, but the fact that CAP 32 is weak to rocks does admittedly severely diminish its potential as a pivot anyway. As long as rocks are kept on the field, it is essentially as useless as MGLO w/o Life Orb.
Pixilate: I really do like this ability, especially since we don't have any boosting moves on CAP 32. To be completely honest, I don't see why we can't just end up with both MG+Pixilate. While Magic Guard might be much stronger than Pixilate and therefore used much more, I feel like the option itself helps it to function better as a pivot as it could bluff Pixilate E-Speed to force out Pokemon such as Dragapult or Roaring Moon. And even though Magic Guard might be stronger overall, the fact that several common fast threats are weak to Fairy does give Pixilate a niche.
Levitate/Earth Eater: Between the two, I personally prefer Levitate over Earth Eater, simply because Levitate is immune to all hazards barring rocks if Boots are knocked off, allowing it to function slightly better as a pivot. Most teams will likely be wary about clicking ground moves against a team with Earth Eater anyway, so the recovery aspect isn't really useful. In the end I'm just not sure that teams that want a ground immunity will run CAP 32 over Pokemon such as Venomicon or Equilibra. It's definitely nice for have a pivot to have an immunity, but I personally don't think that removing one weakness is enough to benefit a Pokemon with mediocre stats.
Prankster: I think I like the idea of Prankster more so than the ability itself. Prankster Parting Shot on a Pokemon advantageous against Gholdengo definitNoely seems fun. However, in the absence of boosting moves, I don't see this ability giving it any offensive pressure whatsoever. Additionally, while Prankster Wisp/Sap/Recovery is nice, I feel like this Pokemon with Prankster might be a free switch-in for special attackers, especially with its low offensive pressure. One way to circumvent this would be screens or moves such as Thunder Wave, but I feel like at that point the only reason to run CAP 32 over Grimm is beating Gholdengo, which I don't think justifies its use enough.
Electric Surge: While fundamentally this ability is useful in a Tapu-free metagame, especially one with Quark Drive, I feel like we should slot terrain abilities for a Pokemon that is physically designed to set terrain. This ability admittedly feels like more of an afterthought, and probably wouldn't even be up for discussion in a metagame with Tapu Koko. Additionally, I just don't think CAP 32 will be able to take advantage of its own terrain enough to warrant its inclusion here. Again, I think if we want to go the terrain route, that should be the fundamental concept behind the Pokemon's competitive design and not something we splash on in the middle of the process.
Sharpness: I think I would be more on board with this if Fairy has a move boosted by Sharpness, but I think the ability is just too one-note for this Pokemon.
Poison Touch: Personally not a fan. I don't see this being really that useful in the long run, especially since it has mediocre stats to begin with. Most Pokemon that get the ability don't even run it anyway.
Regenerator: Honestly, I don't think Fairy over Dragon is enough justification to use CAP 32 over Astrolotl, unless we design it to be functionally the same, which seems a bit boring.
Snow Warning: I have pretty much the same views on this as Electric Surge. Snow Warning could absolutely be useful in this metagame, but I feel like this concept should have come first rather than as an afterthought.

Edit: Noticed a lot of people have vouched for Parental Bond. I like the concept, just not sure how useful it would be in a metagame dominated by Venomicon-P.

 

[Amamama]

I think poison touch should be replaced with parental bond as the damage boost is really good for limiting the attacking stat, as well as a lot of our stab moves already having strong primary and secondary effects.
Parental Bond opens some very dumb options for both special and physical, while poison touch is basically a weak addition to annoy fire type switch ins.

Wrt levitate and earth eater I prefer earth eater because it fits my design better levitate because our typing is really good into all of the existing knock off users (argh, meow, tusk, physical valiant, iron treads, colossoil if we outspeed bc facade deletes us) except Venomicons, which we don’t hit super effectively atm, while being weak or neutral to their stabs. That means there’s a plethora of mons we would be able to check better with an immunity to spikes.

 

[TyloDK]

But more likely you'd probably rate one highly and the other one shortly behind, if you like one of these two- which would lead to them both performing around the same compared to other choices

That's a good point, I still think it poses a slight risk of splitting vote, but I feel you.

In Scizivire's reasoning for the preliminary slate, he states that "I would only slate one of these for the final slate, but, at this point, I'm not sure which one. Both are similar with slightly different merits. I would like some additional discussion on the two abilities to see which one is generally preferred."

Ah gotcha, thanks for clarification.

I think in the case of the two, I prefer Levitate. Even though we will likely be running HDB, Levitate helps a lot when they are knocked off/it also gives us the option to run other items without worrying about spikes/t-spikes (For example, Rotom-Heat sometimes runs scarf).

In the grander scheme, I am interested in allowing Parental Bond because I think that opens a lot of creative potential.

Of the slate as a whole, the only ones that really catch my attention are Magic Guard, Pixelate, and Levitate/Earth Eater. The other abilities worry me that they won't have enough impact to warrant bothering with this mon in the metagame (except maybe Electric Surge, which I think is OK). They just give UU or below vibes.

 

[Reviloja753]

I’m gonna jump on the bandwagon of replacing Poison Touch with Parental Bond on the slate. While it’s not my favorite potential ability, I think Parental Bond is a good combination of increased power and additional utility, making me actually prefer it over something like Adaptability. Poison Touch, on the other hand, is too weak for what we want to do here imo. It’s an ability that only has a 30% chance to work at the end of the day, and while Fire-type Physical moves are actually pretty synergetic with Poison Touch by hitting Steel-types, Play Rough is such an ass move that it kinda drags the whole operation down. At least with Sharpness, even if you’re stuck with Play Rough on Fairy, you get 135 BP Bitter Blade to make up for it, not to mention coverage. Poison Touch also failing against Venomicon and Garganacl, a physical CAP32’s most solid checks, doesn’t do it any favors either. Ditch Poison Touch please. Genuinely feel like choosing this would be a mistake. Parental Bond deserves to be slated instead.

I also feel Electric Surge should also go. I’m also of the opinion that it’d just warp the process too much. Even though I’m not particularly worried about this one breaking Iron Valiant and Iron Moth, the fact that this would likely take up the majority of our energy going forward makes this one kinda unfun for me. I personally feel that going for an effect setter is about the most boring and potentially unsustainable way this concept could go; so long as a terrain/weather has enough notable, viable abusers, an auto-setter will always be viable unless there is another auto-setter that does it better. Torkoal could have 10/10/10/10/10/10 stats and it’d probably still be run in OU for Drought to enable the Proto mons and Fire-types. I’m slightly exaggerating, given Pincurchin being trash, but the point still stands. Making CAP32 a setter of Electric Terrain will effectively turn this into a partner concept of how best to compliment abusers without breaking the meta, I fear. Moreover, as soon as a better setter (re-)enters the metagame, CAP32 suddenly will likely find itself wholly outclassed. If we really really want a setter, Psychic Surge could potentially work, since that lacks the can of worms that are Valiant and Moth, but eh. Either way, please no Electric Surge.

Regarding Levítate vs Earth Eater, I’m gonna say Levitate. While we do have boots, considering Knock Off is still out there, particularly on Great Tusk, which these abilities really want to have CAP32 reliably come in on, an immunity to Spikes goes a long way to making Knock less scary to come in on.

Lastly, I’m just gonna add myself to the chorus of support for Pixilate. This is my personal favorite, and not because Sylveon is my favorite Pokémon. Pixilate is absolutely a very focused ability, but frankly, I feel that focusing ourselves wouldn’t exactly be a bad idea at this point. Stats will already be a juggling act, given that the concept hinges entirely around them, and going into them with very little idea of what we want to actually do might make it even harder. It’s been discussed that what makes Pokémon with average stats viable are kits that come together to make something bigger than the sum of its parts, and I feel Pixilate is the best ability to build a synergetic kit for us. FakeSpeed, of course, is a very potent combo with Pixilate which would automatically carve out a strong unique niche for CAP32 as potent speed control and a revenge killer which cannot be competed with. That said, that is not the only route you can take. Boomburst, for example, would make a special attacking CAP32 outright nuclear in a way no other Fairy can be. Body Slam can be used to spread paralysis around to Ghosts and setup sweepers as a less immediately terrifying speed control option. Lastly, Explosion can be a comedic way to punch a hole into a team that needs an emergency check; Astrolotl showed us that making Explosion viable is not impossible, and having STAB Explosion with higher power and a potential Tera Fairy would potentially let you trade with just about anything that doesn’t resist. Explosion is definitely volatile (no pun intended), but balancing it could probably be done. Either way, FakeSpeed isn’t the only option with Pixilate. Vote for it! It’s really good.

 

[Darek]

I want to elaborate more on my issue with Electric Surge:

I think at this point in the discussion it's pretty clear that those who advocate for the ability are operating under the premise of using ESurge for primarily selfish reasons, with the team support aspect being more of a side benefit. Under this lens, Electric Surge seems like an alright choice; I can't deny that it does benefit CAP32. However, even if we were to pursue such a route does not mean we can disregard the implications Electric Surge has for enabling Quark Drive and stronger Electric moves for teammates.

Now, I can't say for certain what the effects of ESurge CAP32 would be on the metagame. But we do know that ETerrain support is quite strong- Pincurchin is pretty garbage but still finds itself ranked on the OU VR. From this, it's clear that ETerrain does have a strong pool of abusers to choose from. We can't just carelessly slap on ESurge and expect everything to work out just fine. Whether we like it or not, at every stage we still need to discuss how ESurge affects the balancing of CAP32, something that inherently shifts the focus of the process.

I believe ESurge advocates underestimate how much of the discussion this conversation will occupy. It's pretty trivial to see that pursuing CAP32's primary niche as an ETerrain setter dramatically shifts the process away from making a CAP with mediocre stats viable and turns it into understanding how the mon functions as an ETerrain setter, which so happens to not require amazing stats. Now, I don't think this is the approach we will end up taking, but the problem lies within the fact that CAP32 has Electric Surge, meaning it can, and will function as an ETerrain setter. It is inherently a viable niche that CAP32 can fill on teams and is consequently one that we have to address. As a result, the conversation still inevitably has to turn to discussing how CAP32 functions as a Terrain Setter. Even if we decide that we want CAP32 to be unable to function as a Terrain Setter, this still warps the discussion at every stage to try to add elements that make CAP32 worse at supporting ETerrain abusers. And if making the setter aspect unviable is the desired route we want for ESurge CAP32, it is still wholly worse than Transistor or Rocky Payload. Sleep immunity is pretty inconsequential, as Breloom and Amoonguss are far from commonly used.

Yet, some may argue that having the conversation about being an ETerrain setter isn't inherently a bad thing, that in doing so we get an interesting discussion and learn a lot about the metagame. I find this to be a problematic take because it is inherently a very different discussion from the concept. While it is true that the goal of making it a viable ETerrain Setter accomplishes our concept of making a viable mon with mediocre stats, it accomplishes the goal in a very trivial and uninteresting fashion. It completely ignores the nuances of the discussion that we've had so far on how Pokemon can make up for middling stats due to synergies between its typing, ability, and movepool. As such, the discussion on what it takes to serve as an ETerrain setter is mostly irrelevant to the concept of a "Bang Average" mon. Even if the discussion on ETerrain is interesting and insightful, it still is ultimately harmful because it steers the discussion away from what we're aiming to explore with this CAP. This is what we mean when we say "Electric Surge railroads the process." It forces us to discuss at length a topic that has little to do with the concept.

Still, some ESurge supporters argue that the ESurge setter role is something that can be ignored during the process. I've seen some pretty interesting takes on Discord such as "If ESurge CAP32 is too strong we can nerf it later" or "If it turns out to be broken we can just ban Valiant." But balancing a CAP is a critical aspect of the process, and releasing the CAP in such a state where it needs to be immediately nerfed demonstrates a failure within the CAP process. While several CAPs have required nerfs following release, this is far from a desirable outcome, and we should still aim to release CAPs that are as balanced as possible. Releasing a CAP that requires another Pokemon to be banned similarly demonstrates a failure of the process, to an even larger degree. This isn't to say that I think ESurge is inherently broken on CAP32, but on the off-chance that it is, it's not something that we can just ignore entirely.

To conclude, I don't hate Electric Surge as an ability, but I think it's pretty clear that it is not an appropriate ability for this concept. In a future CAP process, ETerrain is something that may be worthwhile exploring, but it's not something that we can just put on CAP32 without expecting any consequences. So yeah.

 

[ryangregory78]

I'd like to hop on the Parental Bond bandwagon and advocate for taking Poison Touch off the slate.

I think if we wanna make Poison Touch work on a pivot, we'd need something with a strong U-Turn that disincentivizes Poisons and Steels from switching in. A Ground-type, for instance, would work great with Poison Touch, given nothing short of Corviknight's gonma wanna deal with EQ + PTouch U-Turn. While Fire/Fairy does remove the idea of Steels coming in to absorb PTouch, it really doesn't work well when our best switchins include shit like Venom, Garg, Snael, and Pex, the former two especially. I mean, I guess it's nice to put Dirge and the occasional Ceru on a timer, but I think we get a lot more out of something like PBond to fuck with our switch-ins. Hell, we even don't wanna be running U-Turn in the first place; we get a ton more value out of Volt Switch and Parting Shot, letting us actually pressure to switch-ins like Venom, Snael, Pex, etc.

PBond, in my opinion, is seriously good here though. Of course, 25% boosted attacks is never a bad thing, but I think this lends very well to supporting options, as well. For one, this ability synergizes incredibly well with Lava Plume, giving us an effective 100BP STAB with a nasty 51% chance to burn. If we want something that'll let us stand out from out competition, special Sacred Fire does the job pretty damn well. Our Moonblast becomes even stronger here too, now boasting an effective 118.75 BP and a 51% chance to drop SpAtk, really sticking it to special attackers like Venom, Dirge, and Iron Moth. One thing I'm really curious about here is the potential of PBond Bitter Blade, giving us a 112.5 BP STAB that heals us back for massive amount of damage in return.

All in all, I've grown pretty fond of Parental Bond on CAP32, and in turn, I support taking Poison Touch off the slate.

 

[Explosion Badger]

I'd also like to advocate against putting Electric Surge on the slate.

This ability functionally serves little to no purpose for CAP 32. Its main purpose, regardless of whether 32 has moves that take advantage of it or not, is to boost one of the many potential abusers of electric terrain, such as Caribolt or Iron Valiant. Even with the addition of electric moves that could potentially benefit from Esurge's inclusion, the boost these moves get are limited as it is, and their coverage with our main STABs is only so-so at best. Even Volt Switch, which has use for us as a pivot, has been shown to be outclassed by U-Turn even on offensive pivots that could use both Electric Surge and Volt Switch far better than we can, such as Tapu Koko, who avoided using Volt Switch and opted for U-Turn in order to have more consistent pivoting. There are far better options on the slate that 32 can use to support its team while not being superglued to a single team archetype, such as Prankster.

 

[quziel]

Honestly, if Esurge isn't on slate, we should probably only have 7 options. Ptouch isn't really good enough for us, as it doesn't affect any of our best switchins (Venom, Pex, Garg, etc), and I don't think there's any other option that really reaches the level of Pbond/Mguard/Ground Immune/Prankster/Pixilate/Adapt/Sharpness. I could see maybe Regen and maybe Multiscale, but in the case of Regen I think it places us into too direct of competition with Astrolotl, and in the case of Multiscale, while I love the ability, it doesn't really fit with Pivoting. I'm also still gonna hype up Download and Mbounce, though ik they may not be on the radar as much.

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I'll also state that I don't have a strong opinion on Levitate vs Earth Eater, as I don't think the difference will meaningfully affect a huge proportion of games.

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In terms of slated abilities, I think I like Pixilate the most, as I think it gives us the clearest role on a team, and is also the clearest reason to use the mon, off the strength of the defining move Extreme Speed.

Sharpness is also great, and Bitter Blade's insane power is just great for us. Sorta related, but I'm honestly not a huge fan of Adaptability, as while its a lot of power, it feels a bit less focused than both Pixilate and Sharpness, which both give a load of offensive power, but in a very focused direction on either revenge killing or longevity, in a way that Adapt doesn't.

 

[Scizivire]

Small update, I wanted to share what's on my mind for the changes to the preliminary slate as of now.

Parental Bond > Poison Touch
First of all, many people have vouched for Parental Bond to be added to the slate. It's a great ability that combines extra power with added utility. Slating this ability means I have to cut something else, and Poison Touch has been mentioned as something that is not quite powerful enough for CAP32.

Levitate vs Earth Eater
Currently, it seems Levitate is favored over Earth Eater because there is more worry of our item being knocked off than needing the healing Earth Eater provides. I will continue to gauge opinions on this matter for the remaining day of the thread, though. As for why I'm not slating both has been discussed a bit already: it could split votes as people prefer one over the other, therefore negatively impacting both abilities in the polls.

On Electric Surge
There's been concerns about Electric Surge warping the process, mostly because the main draw of the ability is enabling other Pokémon. However, I don't think this is warranted as it does not directly impact the remaining competitive stages in ways other slated abilities would not. As such I would as of now still leave this ability on the slate; after all, team support is a viable way to accomplish our concept and fits within our role as we established earlier in this thread. I could be convinced otherwise though.

 

[shnowshner]

I still think Levitate > Earth Eater is the best option. Boots are mostly a given but if we want to use our typing + Ground immunity to come in on Tusk, we need to understand that it absolutely can just click Knock Off and let hazards do its thing. Levitate blanking Spikes is a massive deal and really Earth Eater is as good as it is on Orthworm because that mons wants as much HP to Shed Tail as possible. Like when our typing + Ground immune invites us in on common Knock clickers we want to actually be comfortable taking Knock, and not needing to worry about the very common Spikes and somewhat relevant TSpikes is absolutely a huge benefit.

Also I am pretty firmly in the cut ESurge off the slate camp. It works but would introduce a lot of process hurdles and dramatically shift the landscape of the CAP meta now that there is something (hopefully) worthwhile with the ability. Too much all at once imo.

 

[Zmaslan256]

Ok trying again and not failing horribly in front of the whole community

Echoing the idea that Levitate > Earth Eater. Being spikes and t-spikes immune on a pivot is huge, especially one that's already weak to ground. Earth Eater does provide extra recovery on a successful switch-in, but it's just not as consistent. This would especially hinder this mon as the one of the main ways we're trying to circumvent its eventual mediocre stats is by giving it useful, consistent, and generally powerful abilities, and when it comes down to it, Levitate just does more for a pivot like this than Earth Eater.

 

[Zzuxon]

Time to share some of my thoughts.

I believe Parental Bond should be unslated on the grounds that it is anti-concept. Parental Bond is functionally a 1.25x multiplier to CAP32's Atk and SpA. We asked "How do you make a pokemon viable and useful with average stats?" and answer "Uhhh....make it so it actually has good stats." That is stupid. It makes the entire CAP32 process a waste of time and potential. I consider Adaptability to be extremely boring for similar reasons, but the fact that it's restricted to STABs makes me not feel that it is quite to the level of being anti-concept.

Though I won't go as far as to say it should be unslated, I am also opposed to Magic Guard. I'm not covering new rhetorical ground here, but Magic Guard will make CAP32 one track and boring. Life orb is the obviously optimal item, so we'll have to assume it's running life orb, so the entire process becomes about life orb. Then, when the life orb gets Knock-Off'd, we're stuck with really bad stats made with Life orb in mind. While you have life orb, this is again basically 1.3x to Atk and SpA. So we have a Feast or Famine scenario, where feast is kind of anti-concept and famine is being kind of useless.

I'm not a fan of Sharpness, though I can't give an especially well-articulated reason why. Choosing an ability for just one move just feels uninteresting, idk.

Now for some positivity.
I am coming down on the side of Levitate. Again, I'm adding nothing new to the discussion, but I think spikes immunity after a knock is more valuable than situational healing.

I really like Pixilate. It gives us more power, but in a way that's interesting and opens up new design space. One of my two fave damage boosting ideas thus far, the other being...

Download. I advocated for an unslating, so I should be constructive and say what I'd replace it with, and that is download. This is a much more interesting way of boosting damage, and can let us build a cool mixed attacker. This opens up the possibilities for a lot of interesting sets, very good stuff.

Don't have a whole lot to say about Prankster, just that I like it. It really feels like the kind of thing the Bang-Average concept should be about.

Electric Surge is an interesting case. There has been compelling arguments on it being centralizing for the process or having an adverse and unpredictable effect. I feel I am too inexperienced to comment on these nuanced concerns. I will just say that, from my plebeian perspective, I like electric surge. Pelipper, Torkoal and Abomasnow represent a long and noble history of pokemon with lacking stats finding use via field setting. With Electric Surge we'd be making our own pokemon in that tradition, while also having room for new ideas. It strikes me as a safe but very respectable direction to go with the project.

 

[Dogfish44]

Levitate vs Earth Eater is... I mean, since I feel like I need to clarify: We really don't have to worry about Vote Splitting on Ranked Choice Ballots. Both do very similar things, but they have unique elements and I think only slating one of the pair would be daft - or at least, unfounded? Unless we have a genuine concern that people who want to vote for a Ground-immunity are *only* going to rank one of the two options (which feels very unlikely???), then I'd much rather have both as options.

Parental Bond is cool and I think I can count myself on that bandwagon - I'm surprised that it's still coded mind, but that's neat! It's also 100% on concept - in a concept that asks us how we can work around having mediocre *stats*, one option that we have is "Boost our Power, and make several moves much more potent through their effects".

I also think the Electric Surge has had some similarly daft "anti-concept" arguments going on - if anything it's one of the more tried-and-tested ways of approaching the concept, by using something that we know other Pokémon have used to overcome mediocre statlines and see usage. Yes, the fact that it supports other Pokémon means that we'll have to factor that into our process - however, CAP hasn't built in a vacuum for donkeys - if anything, it'll be *healthier* for the project to be acutely aware of the impact it's going to have on other Pokémon much moreso than other CAPs.

 

[boo836]

I don't think it's compelling to say that Electric Surge will take over the process by enabling Quark Drive users when there's really only four Pokemon with Quark Drive to consider (and only 3 users that actually can abuse it well, being Valiant, Hands, and Moth). I'm not a fan of E-Surge on 32 (and think Snow Warning would be much cooler), but there isn't really a reason to take it off the slate imo.

On the topic of the Ground immunity ability, I think Earth Eater is better for its capacity to punish Ground attacks and because of its upgrade to 32's longevity in a metagame dominated by Tusk.

I strongly believe if anything should be unslated, it's Poison Touch and Sharpness. Simple damage multipliers are extremely boring and Sharpness is rather limited in how they are applied. Giving this mon Sharpness for Bitter Blade (and basically only Bitter Blade) when Adaptability exists seems rather pointless. If I were to replace either of them with something, it would be Storm Drain to create new opportunities to switch in. Storm Drain would pair off well with Volt Switch to act as a Fire-type pivot capable of countering offensive Water types, most notably Walking Wake.

Mod edit: removed references to old custom abilities since they are banned from discussion with no exception.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I don't think it's compelling to say that Electric Surge will take over the process by enabling Quark Drive users when there's really only four Pokemon with Quark Drive to consider (and only 3 users that actually can abuse it well, being Valiant, Hands, and Moth). I'm not a fan of E-Surge on 32 (and think Snow Warning would be much cooler), but there isn't really a reason to take it off the slate imo.

On the topic of the Ground immunity ability, I think Earth Eater is better for its capacity to punish Ground attacks and because of its upgrade to 32's longevity in a metagame dominated by Tusk.

I strongly believe if anything should be unslated, it's Poison Touch and Sharpness. Simple damage multipliers are extremely boring and Sharpness is rather limited in how they are applied. Giving this mon Sharpness for Bitter Blade (and basically only Bitter Blade) when Adaptability exists seems rather pointless. If I were to replace either of them with something, it would be Storm Drain and/or Mountaineer, two immunity abilities that cover for Fire's other weaknesses.

Mountaineer isn't on the table. We ditched customs a very long time ago, and we don't plan on giving any newer caps any of the existing custom elements either.

Also, the issue people have with Electric Surge has nothing to do with the number of Quark Drive users in the metagame, it has to do with how strong the are. Iron Valiant and Iron Moth are both already top tier threats in the metagame, so there are concerns that enabling them further would either derail the process and/or cause negative effects on the metagame as a whole.

 

[boo836]

Mountaineer isn't on the table. We ditched customs a very long time ago, and we don't plan on giving any newer caps any of the existing custom elements either.

Also, the issue people have with Electric Surge has nothing to do with the number of Quark Drive users in the metagame, it has to do with how strong the are. Iron Valiant and Iron Moth are both already top tier threats in the metagame, so there are concerns that enabling them further would either derail the process and/or cause negative effects on the metagame as a whole.

Limiting the distribution of existing customs is an extremely arbitrary decision and cutting them out after agreeing to include signature moves/abilities is even more so.

Valiant and Moth are the only real top-tier threats and between the both of them only Valiant really stands out as an actual threat. If Electric Terrain becomes an actually threatening archetype because of a single booster then the metagame will simply adapt with the use of removal options like Defog or Ice Spinner, or through a greater emphasis on Valiant checks in teambuilding. It shouldn't be process-warping when we've already instated a limit on our stats and don't really have a boosted STAB outside of Terastalisation. Jumbao has Drought, typing synergy with both Wake AND Volcarona, and a great BST, but it isn't exactly gamebreaking (at least this gen lol). If anything, the utility offered to Quark Drive users is a pretty good argument for ESurge being pro-concept.

That said, I don't really want to see 32 have ESurge, in large part because I don't think it'll be a particularly good user of the Ability, and being better than Pincurchin isn't meaningful when the only reason Pincurchin is listed is for the niche carved out by its ability.

 

[dex]

I don't have concerns about Electric Surge warping the process nor do I have concerns about it breaking the metagame. However, it does make CAP 32 extremely one-dimensional, as it causes the rest of the stages to revolve around setting up terrain for Quark Drive mons / Caribolt (for the record, Iron Jugulis would also definitely see use on teams like that). Whether or not this is a desirable consequence is a matter of opinion; I personally am not a fan, as CAP is no stranger to Electric Surge teams (they're quite popular in SM CAP). For the record, the same applies to Snow Warning: the ability becomes all about setting up Aurora Veil. There aren't any snow abusers that make the weather playable like there was in SS with Arctozolt. Again, CAP is already very acquainted with Aurora Veil teams, as they were extremely popular in SS CAP. Personally, I'd like to stray away from these hyper-specific abilities, but they are valid in that they do create a niche that probably isn't unhealthy, so I don't mind Electric Surge being slated.

On the matter of slating Earth Eater vs. Levitate, I don't think it matters much which one is slated, but only one of them should be slated. These two abilities are obviously very similar, so slating both of them and taking the spot of a different ability that gives a different path seems wrong to me.

I believe Parental Bond should be unslated on the grounds that it is anti-concept. Parental Bond is functionally a 1.25x multiplier to CAP32's Atk and SpA. We asked "How do you make a pokemon viable and useful with average stats?" and answer "Uhhh....make it so it actually has good stats." That is stupid. It makes the entire CAP32 process a waste of time and potential. I consider Adaptability to be extremely boring for similar reasons, but the fact that it's restricted to STABs makes me not feel that it is quite to the level of being anti-concept.

This is a really weird way to look at this. Some examples of Pokemon we identified early on as "Bang Average" were Crawdaunt, Breloom, and Nidoking, who all have abilities that boost their offensive potential. Nidoking is of particular note, as it operated off of a poor attacking stat. It was discussed earlier that a completely valid path forward was with an offensive-boosting ability, so I do not see how for the life of me that these abilities are anti-concept when they are literally used by Pokemon that are examples for the concept.

Finally, I also agree with others that Poison Touch probably shouldn't be slated. Poison Touch is an excellent ability, and if CAP 32 had a different typing, I'd be all in on it, but given the context of Fire/Fairy, I don't think it's actually that impactful.

 

[Zzuxon]

This is a really weird way to look at this. Some examples of Pokemon we identified early on as "Bang Average" were Crawdaunt, Breloom, and Nidoking, who all have abilities that boost their offensive potential. Nidoking is of particular note, as it operated off of a poor attacking stat. It was discussed earlier that a completely valid path forward was with an offensive-boosting ability, so I do not see how for the life of me that these abilities are anti-concept when they are literally used by Pokemon that are examples for the concept.

The difference is that Adaptability, Sheer Force, and Technician apply to only a subset of moves, not every damaging move in the game. That makes them not equivalent to a general boost to stats, as they only apply to some moves and you must therefore make concessions to that when making sets. Nidoking will have to use his actual attack stat if he wants to use earthquake, and so his actual attack stat matters.
I specifically mentioned Pixilate as a damage boosting ability that I like, as it has both restrictions and opens interesting new options by giving us STAB on normal moves.

 

[dex]

Nidoking will have to use his actual attack stat if he wants to use earthquake, and so his actual attack stat matters.

For the record, Nidoking has not run Earthquake since it got Sheer Force. In fact, it barely ran Earthquake in DPP despite not having Sheer Force yet!