CAP 32 - Part 10 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[skippergamez]

Idk why people are so utterly concerned that Pixilate will never be used, and unless we give it a game breaking ability (which really boils down to Magic Guard and Regenerator), there’s always a reason to use a 168 BP STAB move. I just think there’s a lot of Defensive utility to be desired.

Why we SHOULD have a secondary ability.

1) Why not?

A secondary ability would really flesh out CAP 32. Secondary =/= Should never be used. I agree that we don’t want a Cawmodore situation. But we don’t have Intimidate as our primary ability, we have FREAKING PIXILATE. The likelihood that the meta would never use STAB Boomburst CAP32 is low.

I understand that that reason is an argument against having a secondary ability, but I disagree, mono-Pixilate doesn’t address the MAJOR problems that CAP32 faces right now. A secondary-ability would help with that.

2. CAP32’s defensive profile is BL dogshit.

CAP32’s problems aren’t solved by Pixilate, especially with 55 Speed. If we choose an ability that defensive problems, it becomes more productive than no secondary ability. No secondary ability leaves us with a trashmon.

3. The concept is not Pixilate, it is low stats

Right now, I don’t see how Pixilate is the thing that is redeeming our low stats. A secondary ability would help redeem our low stats. Now, this may say that we need to pick an ability better than Pixilate, but instead:

An ability that helps the justification of CAP32 being on a team

If we give CAP32 another ability, it increases usuability, giving the user more versatility when using CAP32, increasing its viability. This leads me to my next reason

4) Our stat spread is very pro-Secondary Ability

Our bulk is not something to look away from, and I think an ability that leverages it increases CAP32’s viability, like I said before. The potential versatility combined with our stats makes having two competitive abilities a very good option. Pixilate can be featured on both an offensive and defensive set that more relies on Pixilate’s boost to make progress. The secondary ability can be featured on the same/similar two sets that look to feature more of CAP32’s defensive prowess.

Overall, CAP32 needsa secondary ability for its viability, not for “ease of project” or “the direction of the project” or other bs like that

 

[faithviolet]

The issue with having abilities that give CAP32 two different roles is that as the meta changes, one role or the other is liable to come out on top as the only viable one, in a way that two abilities that work with the same role will not. So if we're hoping to ensure that (like Equilibra or Jumbao) both abilities continue to be used in the long-term, we have very few options for abilities.

I don't believe that this is necessary, and so I believe we should attempt to have a secondary competitive ability. After all, the concept we're working with is not "make a pixilate abuser" - if it was, then the current stat spread would not have won - but "make a pokemon with bang average stats succeed". We've got our bang average stats, now we need to add power to CAP32 in whatever non-trivial legitimacy-preserving way we can.

A second ability added with the hope of giving a second niche to CAP32 is nothing but a positive in this respect. If the ability turns out to be unviable in comparison to Pixilate, we're no worse than if we had voted for and given it an NCA.

 

[koista12]

I agree that we should consider a secondary ability for CAP32. I feel that CAP has an aversion to secondary abilities that isn't quite justified, and I agree with Brambane when he says the concept here is not "make Pixilate good" but rather to make a Bang Average mon. The aversion seems to me to spring from Equilibra's process, where the two abilities we gave made the counterplay available wildly different based on the ability choice. That seems less likely here for several reasons:

1) I don't forsee us giving CAP32 a secondary ability that is as good offensively as Pixilate. We built our defining move list around Pixilate, and the moves we chose are incredibly strong. Any other strong offensive ability is either going to be directly inferior to Pixilate, or change the way this CAP plays so completely as to be unhealthy in foresight, and thus I don't see this happening.

2) Given this, we would likely be giving CAP32 a defensive or utility ability. With our statline, I dont really see us breaking CAP32 this way. This goes back to the Equilibra point: Equilibra was obnoxious because while its set remained the same, its offensive counterplay changed drastically based on its choice of ability. By giving CAP32 a defensive or utility ability, we are opening up a defensive/utility role, not a new offensive role, and we will not be changing counterplay to Pixilate CAP 32.

That's a long way to say that we're likely not going to break CAP32 by giving it a good secondary ability.

The idea that "we shouldn't give CAP32 a secondary ability because it's just not necessary" seems lazy to me. We don't have to grant this mon any given element, but we do so because it'll help fulfill the concept in a CAP OU viable mon. I don't personally see the conceptual difference between if CAP32 had two sets that use different moves with the same ability; vs two sets that just have different abilities. Either way, you are ending up with a more diverse CAP. Dismissing this opportunity out of hand just doesn't make sense, especially given the statistical issues this mon faces.

 

[Amamama]

I don’t agree with the posts above, because for all intends and purposes we already have our bang average stats and fulfilled the concept.
Yes adding a secondary ability might let us explore a bit more but we already have all the tools together to make a truly average Pokémon work and adding an ability won’t do more in that regard.
Imo adding a secondary will only divert competitive power and project resources away from what we already established.
Staying focused on a simple build with a single ability that works perfectly with the stats and typing is thus my preferred option.

 

[Brambane]

Project resources are not a thing, this does not cost us money and it is not like we are on a time crunch. The only "resource" is personal interest of the participants, and anyone who jumps ship at secondary ability likely wasn't a valuable resource anyways.

Competitive power budget is a thing, by it's not a static amount for every project. The ceiling of competitive power is, well, uncompetitiveness. The floor is unviability, as a Pokemon we cannot reasonably use cannot fulfill this particular concept. I would argue the more viable we can make CAP32 while keeping it from being uncompetitive, the better, as the manifestation of this concept is a consistently viable option with a bang average stat distribution. If a secondary ability pushes us more in that direction, it is completely in line with our goal for competitive power relative to this this project. As the project stands, have fulfilled the bare necessities for our concept at best, so it seems odd to stop here.

 

[min min]

i'll be real, pixilate + high bp normal moves isnt a v satisfying optimisation of low stats. Sure it works but it's just making the effective numbers bigger instead of skirting by barely-high-enough stats that fit into metagame niches (e.g. clef's defenses being at the threshold of fat that make it v annoying only with magic guard, or breloom's poor defenses being offset by resisting rocks + eq from the ground type tanks it aims to beat)

IMO there is room to maximise the unique fire fairy defensive profile and play along with this aspect of average stats. adding an extra immunity (e.g. to water, or ground, or hazards) can push this creatively. It's also decent futureproofing - safe to say some future metagame will always be in want of an eq/knock switchin, or a water/dragon immunity.

as for what it does once it's on the field, i'm sure we can figure it out later :-)

ed: i realise weird immunities do flip the script on some threats on the threatlist (gren, or bulky grounds). This shouldnt be as bad as it seems - without pixilate, a surprise immunity cap32 also has less to punish a potential threat with. especially if it runs utility more than smth like cm/draining kiss.

 

[Zetalz]

Hi. I've been dead for the past 6 months, and have only loosely followed this project. Big pinch of salt, and all that.

The Need vs Want debate is a messy thing that comes up in these sorts of Secondary Abil stages where there is no hard Yes/No majority viewpoint, and often ends up becoming a circular discussion with people just talking past each other while arguing semantics. The sort of 'we do not need, therefore we do not want, and/or should not want' mentality from the anti-secondary side is not something I vibe with. CAP never needs to do anything beyond the basic fulfillment of the concept. The idea that we shouldn't strive to go further, so as to create a broader canvas on which to explore, shows a distinct lack of ambition to do more than the bare minimum needed.

Stats are 32's conceptual focus, not Pixilate. If a Secondary Ability were to be chosen that overshadowed Pixilate somehow, lead to 32 being a viable mon, and does not create a dilemma of 32 being too difficult to prep for/check for, then the concept is no less fulfilled than it would have been with just Pixilate alone. The fear of creating too polarizing of a mon is valid, but often steeps too far into bad faith arguments that the community isn't capable of avoiding such a thing, or that because some Secondary Abils in the past have been superfluous there's no point even attempting it.

CAP should not be hesitant to explore more open design space when it presents itself. Focusing on a single element provides good direction, yes, but we should strive to paint as full of a picture as we can, because that to my eyes often creates the most interesting end products.


tl;dr

1. Given that Pixilate is a very defining ability on its own, is a secondary ability actually desired at all?

Ye boi.

 

[boo836]

There's no reason why we can't have a second ability. There are plenty of options that provide offensive use cases over Pixilate, ranging from simple damage multipliers like Adaptability and Supreme Overlord, to weather/terrain boosts. Even immunity/resistance abilities work in offensive roles by creating space to retake offensive momentum. Given our average stat spread, 32 is especially dependent on abilities in defining its roles and that fact should be reflected in this stage.

IMO there is room to maximise the unique fire fairy defensive profile and play along with this aspect of average stats. adding an extra immunity (e.g. to water, or ground, or hazards) can push this creatively. It's also decent futureproofing - safe to say some future metagame will always be in want of an eq/knock switchin, or a water/dragon immunity.

Strongly disagree that an immunity would "futureproof" 32. If anything, it flattens 32's role and makes it easier to outclass or force into irrelevance. As much as I want to see this have a second ability, Pixilate/ESpeed/Boomburst is so specific, unique, and mechanically-focused that it's much less likely to struggle to find use in future metagames.

 

[min min]

There's no reason why we can't have a second ability.

[...]

Strongly disagree that an immunity would "futureproof" 32. If anything, it flattens 32's role and makes it easier to outclass or force into irrelevance.

Confused about what you're arguing here. You say 32 will benefit from more abilities, such as immunities, to patch its average stats, yet also think that having two abilities (Pixilate + immunity) will "flatten 32's role" in the future and make it worse?

 

[mark6870]

There's no reason why we can't have a second ability. There are plenty of options that provide offensive use cases over Pixilate, ranging from simple damage multipliers like Adaptability and Supreme Overlord, to weather/terrain boosts. Even immunity/resistance abilities work in offensive roles by creating space to retake offensive momentum. Given our average stat spread, 32 is especially dependent on abilities in defining its roles and that fact should be reflected in this stage.

While I agree that there's no reason not to have a secondary ability, Adaptability will never be stronger than pixilate boomburst, and Adaptability is the only legal secondary that you mentioned. Even if they Pixilate will always be the best offensive ability we have since we (most likely) are giving it some of the best moves for it to abuse.

Strongly disagree that an immunity would "futureproof" 32. If anything, it flattens 32's role and makes it easier to outclass or force into irrelevance. As much as I want to see this have a second ability, Pixilate/ESpeed/Boomburst is so specific, unique, and mechanically-focused that it's much less likely to struggle to find use in future metagames.

CAP does not "futureproof" its mons, they are built for the current meta and if they stay good for the rest of the generation and for future gens, that's a bonus.
Therefore, if CAP32 maintains viability with only one set instead of two, that's fine.
Even if it did, I fail to see how more options "flattens" 32's role. How does more options make a mon worse? I get how it may not make it better than the optimum if one ability outclasses the other but how does it get worse?

 

[boo836]

Confused about what you're arguing here. You say 32 will benefit from more abilities, such as immunities, to patch its average stats, yet also think that having two abilities (Pixilate + immunity) will "flatten 32's role" in the future and make it worse?

I don't think this was communicated well on my part. I don't think a second ability will make it worse, but that immunity abilities make it easier to either outclass its competitive niche, break it, or force it into irrelevance because of how much its niche depends on that immunity. Mark6870 is right that CAP doesn't really consider future metagames when designing, but the point I'm getting at is that if it's easy to outclass then it's not a good design to start with. If we use an immunity for 32's secondary ability, it needs to be able to distinguish itself from other mons with the same immunity beyond its typing.

While I agree that there's no reason not to have a secondary ability, Adaptability will never be stronger than pixilate boomburst, and Adaptability is the only legal secondary that you mentioned. Even if they Pixilate will always be the best offensive ability we have since we (most likely) are giving it some of the best moves for it to abuse.

Pixilate does not boost Fire-type moves, Adaptability is a different ability that has a different use (in 32's case, Sun teams). Adaptability was just an example though, to demonstrate that there would still be reasons to use other offensive abilities outside of Pixilate.

 

[Darek]

Ok so basically

At first glance, it's easy to see Secondary Ability as a sort of "free option" with no additional downside. But this premise also applies to the Secondary Ability stages of other CAP processes- Every CAP has multiple "pro-concept" routes to explore with seemingly nothing to lose. Yet, there's a reason why CAP always considers NCA as an option, and why in many cases NCA is the preferred outcome. The issue with a secondary ability does not stem from lacking ambition nor fear of exploration, but rather from an emphasis on focus and cohesion.

It should go without saying that a Pokemon is greater than the sum of its parts- that much of a Pokemon's value is derived from how its typing, stats, movepool, and ability synergize. Yet in CAP, we opt to segment these components into separate stages, as it makes little sense to discuss all components at once. As a result, we often lose sight of how each of these components interacts with one another, but these interactions are essential nonetheless. This is what it means for CAP to aim for a "cohesive" product- the options that we choose in each stage must work together to make a coherent Pokemon with a clear purpose. Trying to do two things at once is antithetical to a cohesive product, as any two routes do not exist in isolation from one another, and as such often come at odds with one another. If we do want to make a CAP that is able to fit multiple routes, it is not something that we can simply decide past the halfway mark of the process and expect little consequence. This is why Secondary Ability makes little sense for most CAPs, and is why we have seen undesirable outcomes with Secondary Ability in the past.

One only needs to look at previous CAP secondary ability stages and their subsequent movepool stages to see the effects of this problem. Take Miasmaw for example. A major talking point for CompoundEyes as a secondary was to enable Miasmaw to utilize Sleep Powder/Hypnosis, but later during the Movepool Stage sleep moves were banned due to being too strong in practice, even on NGas sets. Similarly, one argument for giving Saharaja Serene Grace was to enable the use of other moves such as Poison Jab. But then neither Poison Jab nor Poison Fang ended up making the final movepool because Saharaja has far better moves it can be running. Even in Venomicon's process, where we were working with two different statlines, the conflicting interests of Stamina and Tinted Lens resulted in flawed movepool outcomes, where the utility options like Stealth Rock and Knock Off intended for Venomicon-E ended up seeing more use on Venomicon-P.

While many contend that we have nothing to lose from a secondary ability, in practice, we observe that our primary and secondary abilities end up cannibalizing each other in the movepool stage. Moves that one ability really wants to run may make the other ability far too strong, or the necessity of certain moves to be given to one ability may drown out options for the other. In the context of CAP32, a defensive-leaning secondary ability may result in Pixilate builds getting more utility options than they should, or a secondary may also restrict setup options Pixilate builds may want because of how they function on the secondary. Although it is impossible to say what will happen in the movepool stage as of now, it makes little sense to risk compromising the build that Pixilate offers on a whim, simply "because we can".

 

[singaporygon]

Just like to quickly write up that I liked it when I saw Brambane mention in discord: "second ability shouldn't mess too much with existing counterplay" (paraphrased).

Might not be the best examples and I'm open to hear better ones, but:
e.g. Your opponent is carefully playing the battle and positioning their good Ground user to be in the field often, and lessening switch-in opportunities for Pixilate 32 to come in --> (x)Levitate(x) would mess too much with this counterplay.
e.g. Your opponent is saving multiple mons that are faster than 32 and aren't weak to PixSpeed --> (x)Chlorophyll/Speed Boost(x) (+ Bulk Up) would mess with this too much.

Some examples of abilities that wouldn't mess up counterplay too much are like Intimidate or Prankster-without-paralysis, since you're still making progress and in an advantageous position vs 32. Your gameplan won't be too far off from the gameplan around beating Pixilate.

 

[Brambane]

One only needs to look at previous CAP secondary ability stages and their subsequent movepool stages to see the effects of this problem. Take Miasmaw for example. A major talking point for CompoundEyes as a secondary was to enable Miasmaw to utilize Sleep Powder/Hypnosis, but later during the Movepool Stage sleep moves were banned due to being too strong in practice, even on NGas sets. Similarly, one argument for giving Saharaja Serene Grace was to enable the use of other moves such as Poison Jab. But then neither Poison Jab nor Poison Fang ended up making the final movepool because Saharaja has far better moves it can be running. Even in Venomicon's process, where we were working with two different statlines, the conflicting interests of Stamina and Tinted Lens resulted in flawed movepool outcomes, where the utility options like Stealth Rock and Knock Off intended for Venomicon-E ended up seeing more use on Venomicon-P.

While many contend that we have nothing to lose from a secondary ability, in practice, we observe that our primary and secondary abilities end up cannibalizing each other in the movepool stage. Moves that one ability really wants to run may make the other ability far too strong, or the necessity of certain moves to be given to one ability may drown out options for the other. In the context of CAP32, a defensive-leaning secondary ability may result in Pixilate builds getting more utility options than they should, or a secondary may also restrict setup options Pixilate builds may want because of how they function on the secondary. Although it is impossible to say what will happen in the movepool stage as of now, it makes little sense to risk compromising the build that Pixilate offers on a whim, simply "because we can".

I don't like these examples of past CAPs. I don't disagree that having a secondary ability demand moves that would negatively affect Pixilate movesets should be completely avoided. But none of these examples reinforce that point.

Miasmaw is just whiffed on CompoundEyes since it doesn't have reason to run it without sleep moves, but as far as I know nothing that it got from CompoundEyes had any effect on its NGas sets. The ability was explored but ultimately decided to be abandoned as a competitive option when movesets came around, which isn't even a bad thing. It's not like we burned some crucial bridge in the Pokemon's design, and if Miasmaw has a contradictory and cluttered design, I would cite its secondary ability as the least of the problems.

Saharaja got the SG options in playtest, and they were cut since they ended up being fluff. Serene Grace only saw use, and this is being generous, with Body Press, and that was enough. Use giving Saharaja Serene Grace to explore a consistent Diamond Storm and see if there was value in something like SG Poison Jab/Lava Plume/etc was completely in-line with us learning from the process and interacting with the concept. No one with decent metagame knowledge believed Serene Grace would be the consistent, viable option. That was kind of the point of the ability and part of why it won and it didn't really leave any sort of sour mark on the final product. We gave it a chance to explore its efficacy in practice, it came up short, we learned from it. Saharaja wasn't affected in terms of its viability or effectiveness, but we had our fun and learned from the experiment, and that is a good result for what the ability was meant to achieve.

Venomicon-P using Stealth Rock and Knock Off is not really a flawed outcome? I don't think Venom-P being a utility Pokemon was a failure outcome for us. Like I am not going to deny that Knock Venom-P is obnoxious in Gen 9, but in Gen 8 its fine and perfectly in-line with that framework and concept. If anything for the Books, it was the moves that never overlapped that were the problem, the Swords Dance and the Earth Power.

So I don't see the secondary abilities cannibalizing each other in movepool stages, and more to the actual point, the idea there is a risk of us compromising a Pixilate build sounds like hysteria. We wouldn't give it an ability that would threaten the Pixilate movesets because I have very strong faith in our Ability Leader and TLT to not slate such an option. There is no risk, and even if in some disaster scenario the ability makes the slate and wins, as evidence from Miasmaw, we can go back on the idea later in the process. CAP can be modular where the process allows; if anything, the ability to back out of certain ideas or add new ones during moveset submissions is one of the strongest aspects of the entire process.

 

[Darek]

I don't like these examples of past CAPs. I don't disagree that having a secondary ability demand moves that would negatively affect Pixilate movesets should be completely avoided. But none of these examples reinforce that point.

Miasmaw is just whiffed on CompoundEyes since it doesn't have reason to run it without sleep moves, but as far as I know nothing that it got from CompoundEyes had any effect on its NGas sets. The ability was explored but ultimately decided to be abandoned as a competitive option when movesets came around, which isn't even a bad thing. It's not like we burned some crucial bridge in the Pokemon's design, and if Miasmaw has a contradictory and cluttered design, I would cite its secondary ability as the least of the problems.

Saharaja got the SG options in playtest, and they were cut since they ended up being fluff. Serene Grace only saw use, and this is being generous, with Body Press, and that was enough. Use giving Saharaja Serene Grace to explore a consistent Diamond Storm and see if there was value in something like SG Poison Jab/Lava Plume/etc was completely in-line with us learning from the process and interacting with the concept. No one with decent metagame knowledge believed Serene Grace would be the consistent, viable option. That was kind of the point of the ability and part of why it won and it didn't really leave any sort of sour mark on the final product. We gave it a chance to explore its efficacy in practice, it came up short, we learned from it. Saharaja wasn't affected in terms of its viability or effectiveness, but we had our fun and learned from the experiment, and that is a good result for what the ability was meant to achieve.

Venomicon-P using Stealth Rock and Knock Off is not really a flawed outcome? I don't think Venom-P being a utility Pokemon was a failure outcome for us. Like I am not going to deny that Knock Venom-P is obnoxious in Gen 9, but in Gen 8 its fine and perfectly in-line with that framework and concept. If anything for the Books, it was the moves that never overlapped that were the problem, the Swords Dance and the Earth Power.

So I don't see the secondary abilities cannibalizing each other in movepool stages, and more to the actual point, the idea there is a risk of us compromising a Pixilate build sounds like hysteria. We wouldn't give it an ability that would threaten the Pixilate movesets because I have very strong faith in our Ability Leader and TLT to not slate such an option. There is no risk, and even if in some disaster scenario the ability makes the slate and wins, as evidence from Miasmaw, we can go back on the idea later in the process. CAP can be modular where the process allows; if anything, the ability to back out of certain ideas or add new ones during moveset submissions is one of the strongest aspects of the entire process.

With regard to Miasmaw and Saharaja, I find the premise of abandoning the secondary and considering it a successful outcome to be flawed. While we can learn a lot from the outcomes of CompoundEyes and Serene Grace, the choice to add these abilities should not be considered a success by any means, and ending up with useless secondaries should not be an acceptable result for CAP. CAP is not a process where we throw as many things as we can at the wall and see what sticks, nor should it be. The core of the CAP process lies in its discussion, where we aim to understand how to best achieve a CAP's concept while attaining viability. If a CAP's end result does not match its intended design, it indicates a failure of the process- that we failed to understand the concept and metagame to its fullest. This is why I take issue with Stealth Rock and Knock Off in Venomicon's movepool- it is indicative of our failure to understand how Venom-E's other moveslots will be used. CAPs should not be judged on an "Ends Justify the Means" basis; the perfect CAP is not one that simply achieves its concept and is viable, but one that does so in the way that was intended and predicted in discussion. Even if it may be unrealistic, this is the goal that CAP should be striving for, and treating the secondary as expendable is antithetical to this pursuit.

That being said, the examples I listed here illustrate how in some way or another, the intent of either the primary or the secondary ends up getting compromised come the movepool stage. In practice, this more frequently occurs to the secondary, but if we do intend to treat our secondary ability as a full-fledged route that we want to realize, instead of just treating it as expendable, the primary ability may risk becoming compromised as well. This is not hysteria; this is something that has occurred in multiple previous processes under the direction of many capable Ability Leaders and TLTs.

This isn't to say that I am opposed to introducing new ideas late into the CAP process, but the reality is that these ideas are frequently half-baked and not fully realized, because as I've stated before, they are often at odds with the design of the rest of the CAP. In this case, while it is possible to choose a secondary ability that is not at odds with the primary, to do so is extremely difficult to do, and I am skeptical if there are any abilities that work with Pixilate in such a fashion. Dex made a fantastic post on what such an ability would look like.

 

[Brambane]

With regard to Miasmaw and Saharaja, I find the premise of abandoning the secondary and considering it a successful outcome to be flawed. While we can learn a lot from the outcomes of CompoundEyes and Serene Grace, the choice to add these abilities should not be considered a success by any means, and ending up with useless secondaries should not be an acceptable result for CAP. CAP is not a process where we throw as many things as we can at the wall and see what sticks, nor should it be. The core of the CAP process lies in its discussion, where we aim to understand how to best achieve a CAP's concept while attaining viability. If a CAP's end result does not match its intended design, it indicates a failure of the process- that we failed to understand the concept and metagame to its fullest. This is why I take issue with Stealth Rock and Knock Off in Venomicon's movepool- it is indicative of our failure to understand how Venom-E's other moveslots will be used. CAPs should not be judged on an "Ends Justify the Means" basis; the perfect CAP is not one that simply achieves its concept and is viable, but one that does so in the way that was intended and predicted in discussion. Even if it may be unrealistic, this is the goal that CAP should be striving for, and treating the secondary as expendable is antithetical to this pursuit.

That being said, the examples I listed here illustrate how in some way or another, the intent of either the primary or the secondary ends up getting compromised come the movepool stage. In practice, this more frequently occurs to the secondary, but if we do intend to treat our secondary ability as a full-fledged route that we want to realize, instead of just treating it as expendable, the primary ability may risk becoming compromised as well. This is not hysteria; this is something that has occurred in multiple previous processes under the direction of many capable Ability Leaders and TLTs.

This isn't to say that I am opposed to introducing new ideas late into the CAP process, but the reality is that these ideas are frequently half-baked and not fully realized, because as I've stated before, they are often at odds with the design of the rest of the CAP. In this case, while it is possible to choose a secondary ability that is not at odds with the primary, to do so is extremely difficult to do, and I am skeptical if there are any abilities that work with Pixilate in such a fashion. Dex made a fantastic post on what such an ability would look like.

Useless secondaries are an acceptable result if the intention is meaningful and within the scope of the process. CAP is a process of exploration of the game mechanics, pushing boundaries and testing ideas. Secondary abilities are a useful tool for branching a project out to interact with and explore more facets of competitive Pokemon gameplay and design. This is ultimately what the CAP process is about, and has been, since the inception of the process in DPP.

Additionally, how and when do you define "intended design?" If it is at concept assessment, which is probably the most logical place for it, then intended design could be purposefully ambiguous. Perhaps it is a more internal thing, i,e, "what I perceive CAP32 should be" when there really isn't an intended design. We certainly have direction and roles we can follow, but making those hard-set from their inception creates an inflexible project, which would be deleterious as our understanding of its parts improve during the process. People will have different interpretation of what the final product should look like and even how to measure its success. This is not a flaw in the process; new perspectives is what has allowed CAP to grow and adapt over time. It is still another reason to encourage flexibility.

I also disagree with your perception of Venomicon's movepool. Part of Tinted Lens was seeing if there was value in compressing moveslots otherwise used for coverage to fit utility. CAP tests things; it tries things in different directions exactly to see what works. It isn't blindly throwing things out to see what sticks; it is testing ideas and learning from the results. We did learn from Venomicon-E that, well, the payoff of boosting outweighs the role compression in building when you don't have to predict or drop recovery for coverage. This is hardly a failure, as we were not measuring our success by how good Venomicon-E was as a rocker or Knock Off user.

And I think your goal for a perfect CAP is antithetical to the project itself. A CAP that viable as predicted in discussion is a fine result, but viewing any experiment as a failure if you do not get the predicted result is the greatest folly in science. And that is what CAP projects are; they are experiments. To test educated hypotheses based on our knowledge of the game, answer questions, to improve our understanding of the game through (ideally) a community of users invested in competitive play. You do not always get the outcomes you predict, or even want, from every experiment. But that is okay, it's part of the process.

Ultimately, due to the nature of our process, secondary abilities will not have the same amount of time to develop as the primary ability. This itself though is not a valid reason to discredit them as an option. I agree an ability should not be at odds with the rest of the CAP, but this demands the question of how do we define the "intended design?" I would argue our intended design is to make a Pokemon with immense synergy between different elements to compensate for collectively average stats, which allows a secondary ability well within its scope. We are unfortunately currently at a stage were we cannot dive into what an ability that would not be at odds with Pixilate would be and how it would influence movesets and movepool. That is why I am pushing for us to open discussion on the topic. If at the end of the day we decide that a secondary ability is not desirable and at odds with our ability to make Pixilate sets functional, then that's fine. But we should keep the floor open for them.

 

[Sawyer.]

The concern that two viable abilities will inevitably cannibalise each other's movepools is generally valid - however, I don't think it should be a major concern for CAP32 specifically.

Firstly, there are few movepool options that will realistically be "too much" for a Pixilate-CAP32. Any attacking move will have a massive opportunity cost in the form of a Pixilate-boosted attack, while strong utility options (e.g. Spikes, Strength Sap) are unlikely to be overbearing due to CAP32's average defensive typing and stats.

Secondly, CAP32's typing and stats also make it unlikely that a powerful secondary ability (e.g. Levitate, Prankster, Regenerator) would necessitate the restriction of useful utility options. Moves that Pixilate-CAP32 might want, like Strength Sap, Knock Off, or Spikes, will not be broken in conjunction with a secondary ability except in extreme hypothetical cases.

I also want to touch on Brambane and Darek's debate, as I think both of their perspectives are valid. To summarise the viewpoints:

1. CAP is about creating a perfectly-realised concept. We learn about the metagame through the discussion which takes place during the CAP process.
2. CAP is about creating and testing a hypothesis. We learn about the metagame through how the CAP performs in practice (as well as through discussion).

On one hand, I agree with Darek's perspective in that we should strive to anticipate the outcome of everything we do. We should not just tack a powerful secondary ability onto CAP32 in an effort to make it more viable, and then retrospectively assess what (if anything) was learned.

On the other hand, it simply isn't realistic to anticipate exactly how a CAP will perform in the metagame. There is plenty that we can only learn through experimentation. I think an element of "testing a hypothesis", as Brambane advocates for, is fine as long as it is backed up by substantial discussion beforehand.

To return to CAP32, I think we absolutely should pursue a competitive secondary ability. We just need a proper process in place to allow for substantive discussion on this second ability, and how it might affect Pixilate-CAP32. Because of this, I would really like to see discussion on viable defensive and utility abilities opened up as soon as possible.

 

[singaporygon]

I think one of Darek's strongest points hasn't been addressed yet: if we wanted to create two equally viable but completely different roles (& don't even share the same counterplay as some abilities suggest), it should have been earlier. Discussed and voted during the concept assessment / beginning, not now after we've made votes based on the pixilate focus.

 

[Amamama]

I think at this point we have enough voices to back up a secondary ability Discussion.
While I am convinced a secondary is likely more detrimental to the rest of the competitive stages, I think dissecting possible abilities is necessary.
It would let us scrutinize in depth if and how secondaries might impede the success of Pixilate and if we can find abilities that don’t end up clogging up or starving the movepool of a Pixilate build.
Ultimately I very much agree with Darek, that simply throwing things at the wall and see is not the way and trying to be as thoughtful as possible with anything we add can only help make a better end productthat is easier to gauge the effectiveness of during playtest.

TLDR; we should discuss secondary abilities (and then vote NCA because 32 doesn’t need one ;))

 

[Scizivire]

Hey, I'm back. This is a bit later than I had originally planned to, but I'd like to wrap up discussion on the first question I posed at the beginning of this thread. As it turns out, the question of whether or not we should have a secondary ability at all was quite contentious, with a lot of people vouching for a secondary ability, and a lot of others not wanting to spend more time on this stage. That said, the extra time I took to post this has allowed some important points to be discussed, with good arguments from supporters of both camps:

• For those against a secondary ability, I believe the main worry is that another ability would shift the focus away from Pixilate and create complications during later stages, particularily the moveset and movepool stages. With our mixed attacking stats, CAP32 will likely run multiple different movesets with Pixilate by itself already, and another ability could expand the amount of sets opponents would have to guess and play around even more. What's more, with recent examples such as Miasmaw and Saharaja, we've seen that a secondary ability doesn't always work out as intended, and/or does not align with their respective concept. The focus here is more on the outcome of the product and how much a secondary ability contributes to a CAP's viability in practice, rather than the process behind.
• On the other hand, those of you who want a secondary ability for this CAP want to make the most of our average but balanced stat spread, which I would argue is also a big part of our concept. We cannot exactly predict how succesful CAP32 will be as a slower offensive mon in the current meta, and having more options to fall back on will likely increase the chance that CAP32 will find a niche in the meta. With smart choices, we can avoid having to compromise on later stages because of a secondary ability. The focus for this side is more about learning from exploration during the process rather than the outcome, and answering some of the questions about our concept that might otherwise be left unanswered.

After keeping tabs on this thread and on Discord, I believe there is a very slight majority leaning towards no secondary ability. However, I would agree with Amamama that it is still a good idea to look at our options. As such, I have made the decision to discuss and poll secondary abilities anyway. My thought process here is that exploration of different routes and discussion of abilities that fit one or more of these routes may give us some insight in aspects of CAP32 that we currently do not have, and after all, No Competitive Ability will absolutely still be slated as a viable option, given the slight majority it has now.

--

I would also like to open submissions for specific abilities. The stage is already taking a bit longer than I wanted, and I don't wish to force another round of discussion. That said, I do still have a couple questions for you guys to help clarify your submissions:

1. What purpose does this ability serve in order to aid CAP32?
Like with the primary ability, the secondary ability should have a clear purpose in what it does for CAP32. If you cannot explain the purpose of your submitted ability, it would be like tacking on a random ability for no reason. For this reason, I would like you to explain how your submitted ability could aid CAP32 in achieving viability.

2. How much does this ability contend with Pixilate? Would it constrict later stages?
Once again, I would like to stress that our secondary ability should not eclipse Pixilate as our main ability of choice. However, for some abilities, we might tread on common ground with it or constrict other stages in such a way that Pixilate might be impeded somehow. Please explain how likely you think it is for your submitted ability to affect Pixilate or later stages.

Note that these two questions are not mandatory, they are there to help formulate and provide structure for your arguments.

 

[mark6870]

Requesting to open up soft banned abilities, namely Ground Immunity Abilities.

1. What purpose does this ability serve in order to aid CAP32?

To highlight the potential versatility of the set, as well as potentially, provide CAP32 with multiple niches I want a more defensive secondary for CAP32, specifically one of the soft-banned abilities such as Earth Eater. We originally wanted Fire/Fairy for its blend of offensive and defensive potential, then we quickly realized that the meta was quite hostile to it. One of the reasons for this is Ground STAB and coverage is omnipresent. Ground immunity remedies this as many of the mons CAP32 would hard-stop (or at least force a tera) otherwise carry ground coverage or ground STAB, like Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, and Garchomp (unless they start running Stone Edge again). It could be interesting that CAP32 could function as a both a defensive and offensive pivot, depending on the set.

2. How much does this ability contend with Pixilate? Would it constrict later stages?

As significant as a type immunity is, it won't be more useful than STAB extreme speed or Pixilate Boomburst all of the time. If you give CAP32 an offensive ability and a defensive ability, it will run the Offensive ability on offensive sets and the Defensive ability on defensive sets, and Ground Immunity abilities ONLY contend with Pixilate on DEFENSIVE sets. CAP32's offensive sets cannot go without its most powerful tools which are enabled by Pixilate. While not the concept, Pixilate is the bedrock of CAP32 and there is no way it can be outshadowed. Some may say that replacing a weakness with an immunity would make Levitate/Earth Eater better than Pixilate, but I would show them Pokémon such as Clodsire which use both Water Absorb and Unaware effectively.
I don't see how it would constrict later stages. The biggest impact i can think of on it is giving it more utility options for it in the final movepool stages, seeing as CAP32 will have to make up for its lack of offensive pressure if not.

TLDR; Give it Ground Immunity. Ground immunity makes it better defensively and won't overshadow Pixilate and won't constrict later stages. It also is pro-concept, highlighting how Bang Average mons can fulfill both offensive and defensive niches effectively. ground immunity good

 

[skippergamez]

I will be subbing Filter

Filter allows CAP32 to tank Ground-type moves from Equilibra, Great Tusk, and Garchomp, as well as Poison-type moves from Iron Moth, Venomicon-E, AV Toxapex, and Plasmanta. AND Rotom-W Hydro Miss, Kril Surf, and Glimmora Power Gem and Sludge Wave, so cool. Filter would boost CAP32’s defensive profile

1. What purpose does this ability serve in order to aid CAP32?

I sorta answered in the above, but Filter helps CAP32 defensively. Being able to tank SE hits better allows CAP32 more room to use its powerful attacks. This idea helps CAP32 find a place as a defensive option with Boomburst. Set versatility helps with viability, so if the player decides that STAB Boomburst isn’t the priority for there CAP32 build, but its bulk is the focus, Filter can be considered as a way to help against a specific Pokémon.

2. How much does this ability contend with Pixilate? Would it constrict later stages?

Filter, specifically, is very unlikely to impede on Pixilate during competitive stages of the process.

Speaking for solely defensive abilities (Filter, immunity abilities, Intimidate). It’s very unlikely that it will impede on the movepool stage. Unlike Compound Eyes Miasmaw, no moves specifically interact with these abilities. These abilities' role is to help CAP32's defensive profile.

I don’t think in the builder, that there will be many situations where Filter will be chosen over Pixilate, however, it’s always a good option, as such, it can help CAP32’s place in the meta

 

[Sawyer.]

As mentioned earlier, I don't believe that any presently un-banned secondary abilities present a viable alternative to Pixilate. Filter, for example, is a cool idea but it is simply too weak - there is no team that would realistically run it over Pixilate-CAP32 or a different Pokemon. I'm seconding the request to open up Levitate/Earth Eater for discussion, as I think a ground immunity is the best way to create a clear defensive niche for CAP32. However, I would also like to request that discussion be allowed on Prankster.

1. What purpose does this ability serve in order to aid CAP32?

Prankster mitigates CAP32's low stats in various interesting ways. Priority recovery really pads our effective bulk and ability to switch into threats after sustaining chip, with Strength Sap an intriguing option that was discussed during the Defining Moves stage. Priority status, Encore, or Destiny Bond could be employed to check faster threats and force switches even from low HP, which CAP32 could then capitalise on with Parting Shot. It's a very rich option for discussion, and of course our Fairy and Fire STABs complement Prankster perfectly.

2. How much does this ability contend with Pixilate? Would it constrict later stages?

I don't see a problem here. Prankster sets would likely be viable only on bulkier team structures, while Pixilate-CAP32 is shaping as a staple on bulky offence. So there would be little overlap in roles, and it should generally be obvious from team composition as to which variant of CAP32 is being used.

Movepool options for Prankster sets are also unlikely to clash with Pixilate. Many of the utility moves that Prankster-CAP32 might want are not useful for the Pixilate set (e.g. Destiny Bond, Will-o-Wisp). Others may be useful (e.g. Strength Sap, Spikes) but would be far from problematic given CAP32's poor stats and the opportunity cost of a boosted Boomburst/Extreme Speed/pivot.

 

[dex]

I am still very much on the train of No Competitive Ability being the best option for this CAP. However, I think there is essentially only one ability that has a use case over Pixilate, doesn't overshadow it, and works with the mon's targeted playstyle: Chlorophyll. Chlorophyll boosts CAP 32's viability by giving it a place on the popular sun teams that the tier loves without dominating Pixilate in usage by not encroaching on its place in any other team composition. I do think that Chlorophyll is essentially the perfect intersection of having a distinct use case while working alongside Pixilate to make CAP 32 a more attractive option in the builder.

 

[StarFalcon555]

Going to submit Analytic.

The one big downside of CAP32 is its lower Speed, which ofc we bypass through Pixilate ESpeed. Analytic, however, allows us a different way of getting around our lower Speed and our lower stats in general by trading spammable priority for huge damage. Despite the main benefit of Analytic being offensive-based, Analytic differentiates itself from Pixilate by working better for defensive sets - we'll need more bulk to make sure our funny heart-shaped friendo can tank the hits needed to get the best use out of Analytic. It definitely wont be as used as Pixilate, but I think it'll have a good place on more bulky/defensive teams that need a little extra firepower.