CAP 31 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nothing you've mentioned regarding these matchups is substantially differentiated from other users of Neutralising Gas,
Miasmaw eats shit against Dragonite's dual wingbeat and Stratagem's meteor beam, can't hit Pyroak supereffectively, and doesn't exactly get to start setting up on Landorus-T like CAP31 would. With a very different typing and access to Diamond Storm, a NG 31 would be in an extremely different situation. (Also, the 100 BP rock move isn't stab, and venomicon-p is pretty bulky! It depends on stat stage and move stage obviously, but with stamina boosts it's not hard to imagine it beating 31.)
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
Nothing you've mentioned regarding these matchups is substantially differentiated from other users of Neutralising Gas, barring (possibly, depending on stat stage) the Venomicon match-up. Venomicon doesn't exactly like eating 100 BP super effective moves anyways. Not losing as much PP vs Corviknight isn't a particularly relevant situation and a really weak case for having NG. Outside of that, there's nothing suggested here that Miasmaw can't already do. As stated before, I really don't get the point of this suggestion OR what role CAP31 with NG is actually supposed to fill or how it's great for a Diamond Storm user, and this isn't really a satisfactory explanation.
I don't feel like typing a paragraph, so some points:
  • Preserving PP vs Corviknight can be relevant, depending on the damage output you have against it vs how much it can heal a turn
  • The interaction with Venomicon is highly relevant anyways, idk what this means by "depending on the stat stage" when you would 100% design a spread that leans into that interaction if NGas wins; that isn't even polljumping, its implicit design
    • Side note, wtf is this about Veno not like eating 100 BP super-effective moves, this mon eats unSTABed Stone Edges all day
  • No, this isn't something that would apply to "other users of Neutralizing Gas" since we have open design space and an offensive move combination with STAB to hit Levitators and pressuring three common Regenerator users
  • Comparing this Pokemon as an NGas user by saying "it doesn't do anything Miasmaw can't already do" reeks of metagame ignorance. Because Miasmaw CAN'T do these things because, unlike a pure Ground-type, its offensive and defensive profile is completely underwhelming at the moment. Trying to use Miasmaw effectively is sacrificing an entire slot for a hard-to-execute Pokemon that still gets fucking 2HKOed by BU Zera despite resisting Plasma Fists
    • And this is not an issue with Neutralizing Gas itself in the metagame, its an issue of Miasmaw's compounding problems coalescing into an incredibly subpar Pokemon screwed over by a DLC and metagame shifts
      • Sorry Darek
  • And ultimately, making a Pokemon that is distinct from other Ground-types in the metagame while still having a solid degree of viability is another component of our design objectives now, and this ability certainly does a fine job of that
 
This is mostly just a question because Neutralizing Gas has become really polarizing in the past bit of discussion, and all I’ve gathered from the posts are the emotional responses and not really the logical arguments for or against NG. Why is specifically a Ground type Diamond Storm user a good user of NG? Again, forgive me not really grasping the arguments. Hopefully this may clarify for more than just me. :)

To make this more than me being ignorant, going to mention a few things about Defiant/Mirror Armor. I do like these for the niche against Lando, but I think that Mirror Armor seems too Lando-focused. Sure, it helps against Lotl and Shadow Balls, but Lotl can burn us and then set Spikes and Shadow Ballers can still chunk us anyway. Defiant gives us an extremely good niche of capitalizing on Defog, as we threaten most Defoggers with Diamond Storm, as well as making Lando afraid to switch in on us. Sure, this is going to make CAP31 want to be on specifically hazard stack teams; I think it would want to regardless of Defiant, because EdgeQuake coverage with boosts is very conducive to forcing switches.

Briefly, my other favored abilities: Water Absorb and Comatose.
 
Last edited:

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
This is mostly just a question because Neutralizing Gas has become really polarizing in the past but of discussion, and all I’ve gathered from the posts are the emotional responses and not really the logical arguments for or against NG. Why is specifically a Ground type Diamond Storm user a good user of NG? Again, forgive me not really grasping the arguments. Hopefully this may clarify for more than just me. :)
It's all good, to boil it down to bullet points:
  • Neutralizing Gas is primarily an offensive ability, and we have a solid offensive move combination between Ground STAB and Diamond Storm
    • NG's strongest relevant interactions are preventing Intimidating, ignoring defensive abilities, making damage "stick" on Regen mons, negating immunities, and (in specifically our case) preserving PP against a Pressure user; all of these are relevant for our offensive move combination
    • This ability has a couple defensive taits (i.e. negating Iron Fist on Melmetal) but those feel more like emergent design space than something to really dig into right now
  • In the context of our current design, Neutralizing Gas gives our Ground-type a distinct niche over other Ground-types
    • None of the other physical Ground-types are immune to Intimidate
    • The other physical Ground-types have a shaky MU into Venomicon unless they run like SD or Choice Band
    • Few other Ground Pokemon can hit Equilibra with Ground+Rock coverage (shoutouts to Smack Down or Gravity Lando-T)
      • This point somewhat depends on how highly you think of Libra in the current metagame
    • Neutralizing Gas is extremely good at punishing Tornadus-T
  • This ability has some small perks with the Defense boost from Diamond Storm (i.e. Melmetal again), but they are incredibly minor and mostly going to be overshadowed by whatever the stat stage will do to synergize with Diamond Storm
This really isn't even my favorite ability (that's Moxie fwiw), but I am going to defend it since it is a good ability and honestly this discussion has been very engaging, as it is an extremely unique ability with fascinating implications. But at this point, I don't think we need to exhaust Neutralizing Gas any more.
 
Why is specifically a Ground type Diamond Storm user a good user of NG?
In my opinion, neutralizing gas acts sort of like picking up rock stab for 31. Most obvious is the increased damage against landorus, but there's something subtler going on here, too; Think about the pokemon you would run a ground-type Diamond Storm user to take care of; Pyroak, the books, torn-t, zapdos, certain steel types, potentially pex and the gslows if our EQ is strong enough. Without rock stab, a lot of these obvious applications for both both Diamond Storm and ground stab start to look suspect; many of them are fairly tanky, while others have the speed and the special coverage to take us out through boosts. Critically, Neutralizing Gas would turn many of these into pretty cut-and-dry wins for 31 whether it's a crazy physical hitter or not.

Seeing as much, I'm going to disagree with Brambane here and argue that by shutting down the fundamental gameplan of many of the pokemon Diamond Storm wants to be able to check or counter, Neutralizing gas would give us way more wiggle room during the stat and move stages to create a defensive CAP31 if we so desire. It straight up wouldn't matter if our coverage didn't quite 2hk0 torn-t or pyroak, because it's not like torn can just heal it off and it's not like pyroak can set up on us.

(This also isn't my favorite either btw; that's probably water absorb right now, but the benefits of that have been talked to death)
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Sorta want to do a review of the intim-blocking abilities proposed so far (and intim interacting). The following criteria are ones I feel to be relevant:

Overall Power: Fairy simple one, but the overall power of the ability is very relevant here; we're a monotype and are using a good but not worldbreaking move. Having an ability that actually does something is useful for us.

Constraints on Design: This one is related to the above, but if the ability forces us to completely kneecap other elements of the design, or warps the focus / play style of the mon a ton, it may not be a great choice.

Spice: This is subjective as all hell, but we probably want something interesting.

---

Defiant: This ability has strong overall power, turning Landorus from a power reduction to a power increase, gives a very solid niche as a defog preventer (further hate on lando). However, by the same basis, Defiant could impact the rest of our design; we would need to balance our attack based on the assumption that we could semi-reliably get a +1 or +2 attack boost during a match, sometimes multiple boosts. This is a very solid ability, is fairly well explored, and while its highs are very high, the overall presence of the ability does give me hope we could balance it. The main reason not to choose this one is not wanting to deal with the attack raise issue; it could also affect our playstyle, and change us from trying to leverage Defense raises to feinting around to get Defog boosts.

Mirror Armor: This ability is almost literally Defiant without the Defog punish. While we don't get an attack raise from Lando, we force it to become a Toxic bot when facing us, as its EQ suddenly does almost zero. As for other matchups where this ability comes into effect, ig we sorta punish Astrolotl users who don't realize that they can click Will-o-Wisp and if we have the bulk we don't have to worry about Spdef drops from pult. That said, lets not pretend it does much of anything beyond blocking Intimidate.

Own Tempo: Arguably the weakest of the three, Own Tempo is a pure Intim blocker with a very minor secondary benefit of preventing Hurricane hax. Admittedly, this secondary is a fair quality of life increase, as I think we've all lost Garchomps after they attacked themselves in front of a Tornadus. I'd list its overall impact on the mon about the same as Mirror Armor, as they're both pure intim blockers with very rare secondary effects, and neither will meaningfully force design constraints upon us.

Neutralizing Gas: While Defiant forced us to design around an attack raise, and the above two have very few secondary effects, Neutralizing Gas has more secondary effects than basically anything. We suddenly don't have to worry about Ground + Rock into Libra, we ignore Intim, we ignore Pressure. This is an insanely strong ability on a Ground/Rock coverage user, as it is on almost any mon. The main reason not to choose this ability is that it could really change the focus of the mon from Diamond Storm to well, Ngas. We may not want to stay in to leverage Dstorm because we need HP to hard in on a Torn in 5 turns. Neutralizing Gas, about as much as Defiant, has a major risk of centralizing our playstyle around it.

Rattled: Covering Rattled here as it has a major interaction with Defiant. Rattled does not block intimidate, that should be noted. Landorus can absolutely chain switch around us until we're -6, and unless we include specific movepool options (which are not guaranteed), we can't necessarily punish that. This has secondary effects of punishing U-turn, Sball, and Knock, which absolutely are relevant for transforming our matchup into more offensive teams, but I feel like a lot of this ability's potential is heavily tied to specific movepool options, and if we don't get those its just gonna feel incredibly feast-or-famine (aka we need to mitigate attack drops, and threaten game off of a one time speed boost).

Not doing an overall ranking.
 
Alrighty, discussion’s going well and we’ve gone quite in depth on a plethora of abilities, so consider this an about ~40 hour warning before the polls. During these last few hours of the thread, I want to focus on abilities that haven’t been discussed much so far. Now’s your last chance to push for your sleeper picks you want to see on the slate!

Let’s talk about some of the newer abilities though:

Corrosion:
Should we be worried about Toxic(or Poison Gas) being a near guaranteed click on the first turn CAP31 comes out? In this sense, is Corrosion able to promote competitive play? How restricting is Corrosion to the opponent when one of their Pokemon is guaranteed to be poisoned?

Neutralizing Gas:
Astrolotl and Tornadus-T are two pokemon whose playstyles are largely dependent on Regenerator. Should we be concerned CAP31’s ability to switch into these two and deny Regenerator? Is being able to hard punish Astrolotl and Tornadus-T for coming in a desirable trait for CAP31, or does it further distract from our intentions of using Diamond Storm?

In other news, we have some new ability bans:

Magnet Pull is banned. It’s fairly obvious that this ability is incredibly warping for the process. It derails much of the process to focus on the matchups into the Steel-types of the tier, and detracts from the central focus on Diamond Storm. Not to mention that trapping is highly uncompetitive and adding a Magnet Pull mon with Ground STAB is clearly unhealthy.
 

dex

En Aften Ved Svanefossen
is an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
I think Corrosion, while obviously powerful and has good synergy with Ground / Rock coverage in threatening the two Steel-types that wall that coverage set, is too centralizing of an ability to be considered for CAP 31. We have one express goal this CAP: make a mon that uses Diamond Storm. Corrosion flips that script, as it is a uniquely powerful ability that almost guarantees progress by clicking Toxic. There are 4 relevant mons that can switch into Corrosion Toxic: Blissey, Krilowatt, Clefable, and Tapu Fini. Blissey does not want to be switching into a physical attacker. Krilowatt (which is arguably not even that relevant) fears Ground-type STAB, and is most likely not powerful enough to threaten CAP 31 out due to the fact that it is, well, not a very strong mon. That leaves Clefable and Tapu Fini as the two consistent Corrosion Toxic switch-ins. Corrosion would take away from CAP 31's goal of being a "Diamond Storm mon" and turn it into a "Corrosion mon". Would the ability be good on CAP 31? Certainly. Is it the right path? I'd say no.
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
dex pretty much took the words out of my mouth with Corrosion, good ability but distracts from the concept. Neutralizing Gas is in a similar vein, undoubtedly powerful with a myriad of good things going for it but could very easily sideline Diamond Storm (again quz pretty much hit the nail on the head).

Since I haven't actually posted in this thread yet due to the dreaded real life gonna have to hurriedly drop my thoughts on the other stuff just before deadline weee.

On the topic of intim blockers since quz made such a lovely post 'bout em I'd like to throw my support behind Defiant & Mirror Armor. Defiant is something I've liked from the get-go and def deserves a slate. Mirror Armor also deserves contention for slate for those wanting Intim blocking with a much less potentially warping ability. Moxie & Water Absorb are also kino poggers and have had near universal support in thread so I won't regurgitate further.

Lastly will say that like SHSP I've had some reservations about Poison Heal. Out of all the widely supported subs I think this one would have to tread the most carefully (particularly in movesets) lest we lose course from the concept. Again find myself seeing this in a similar vein as things like Corrosion and NeutGas as a strong option that comes with the above-average risk of distracting too much from Diamond Storms effective use (though I'd still rather Pheal over the latter two picks.) Also my brain just can't help but constantly worry we'd spend a lot of time worrying over differentiating 31 from Gliscor lest it returns and absolutely tank it's viability vs. actually optimizing Diamond Storm, very very very minor (and subjective!) point but something I have trouble looking past given how tunnel-brain CAP has gotten in the past.
 
No. The entire premise of our concept is using a singular move from the prohibited moves list. Diamond Storm was selected by the community to be this move. The consideration of additional moves from the list directly contradict the wording used in the concept and undermines our selection.


Of the remaining examples, 75 BP is atrocious for STAB let alone coverage. Neither Crush Claw nor Razor Shell are helping patch up the short comings of Ground+Rock. These moves would only be considered if we constrict movesets to force their inclusion, but this would be a horrible way to build CAPs.

At this point, Poison Fang is the only real point in Serene Grace's favor from what you've listed. That being said, we could get far more mileage out of another ability and provide the mon toxic. It would accomplish the same thing and not try to force such a limited ability. Regardless of these suggestions, these examples assume we'd get any of these moves. Since none of these examples are STAB nor mandated by our concept, their discussion is a polljump.
It doesn't undermine the selection at all, the central concept here is Diamond Storm. Both moves would pair well with Diamond Storm because their secondary effects are guaranteed. The entire point of suggesting those two moves is that we were ignoring said rule. It's extremely strange and arbitrary to try using flavour rules for a creation that is supposed to ignore said rule, but then again the rule itself is arbitrary and not based in GF's game design. It's not really polljumping to explain how Serene Grace changes Diamond Storm and other moves which themselves synergise with Diamond Storm, it's elaborating on how Serene Grace has much to offer beyond simply guaranteeing Diamond Storm's boost.

Both Normal and Water offer great tertiary coverage. The former completes the coverage to hit everything in the game form neutral damage (though those that resisted Ground+Rock mons admittedly aren't relevant), and Water hits an extra 40 mons super effectively, including Equilibra. Both Crush Claw and Razor Shell have a guaranteed effect of boosting future physical attacks. It doesn't make sense to treat this as some weak option or imposing a heavy opportunity cost when it's functionally doing the same thing NG does except taking a single moveslot for both coverage and a debuff status move in place of a lack of coverage and a



Miasmaw eats shit against Dragonite's dual wingbeat and Stratagem's meteor beam, can't hit Pyroak supereffectively, and doesn't exactly get to start setting up on Landorus-T like CAP31 would. With a very different typing and access to Diamond Storm, a NG 31 would be in an extremely different situation. (Also, the 100 BP rock move isn't stab, and venomicon-p is pretty bulky! It depends on stat stage and move stage obviously, but with stamina boosts it's not hard to imagine it beating 31.)
Miasmaw outspeeds unboosted Dragonite and hits with Hammer/ Outrage, and Pyroak's max SpAtk Overheat doesn't even 2HKO Miasmaw most of the time without SR up. A 100 ATK (which is the benchmark I used in my Venomicon calcs and most pre-stat stage calcs in general) non-STAB DS doesn't OHKO +1 Dragonite, and +1 DW is a 2HKO unless you win the coinflip and get a Diamond Storm boost. That's just terrible lol, at best you're banking off the opponent not wanting to risk losing the coinflip. Venomicon only wins if it has HDB and CAP 31 has no item boost, or if CAP 31 is <170 Speed (24 speed EVs). Again, the only really relevant match-up Neutralising Gas actually fixes that Serene Grace doesn't is (possibly) Venomicon-P. Equilibra and Rotom-W aren't even good lol.



I don't think Astrolotl is a fair comparison here. Regenerator is what gives Astrolotl so much more longevity than Diamond Storm defense boosts would. Fire Lash is also STAB, so it's extremely easy to add Fire Lash to a moveset and not run out of moveslots. This is not the case for Serene Grace Razor Shell and Crush Claw. Agreeing with wulf's points above on these moves.



It's 50 BP Toxic once you use up your ability slot, which comes with some pretty steep opportunity cost of not having a better ability (many discussed in this thread). I doubt Nuzzle would be as good if it required Serene Grace to have a 100% paralysis chance. I still don't like how the implication is that CAP31 should get Toxic before that discussion is supposed to happen, as I explained earlier.

It's a perfectly fair comparison, in a lot of ways Regenerator doesn't compare to halving damage, especially in the late game. Astro's longevity is also conditional on it switching out and doesn't make the most out of the drop, whereas CAP31 has near-unresisted coverage and strong attacks to abuse.

There is no implication that CAP 31 should get Toxic. The moves I listed are simply examples of moves that like Diamond Storm are transformed by Serene Grace. I literally took the list of 50% secondary effect moves and realised pretty much all of them pair extremely well with a 100% boosting Diamond Storm because they all either 1) drop stats, or 2) inflict Toxic or Burn. The only ones I didn't mention are Octazooka (because it's uncompetitive), Charge Beam, and Rock Smash (because I forgot about them lol). What opportunity cost is there when SG would still win most of the matchups that NG is touted as winning, and SG is compressing two moveslots into one? I've asked repeatedly what role this actually fulfills and the closest thing I've seen to a real answer is Brambane's most recent post answering someone asking the same question. Even then it didn't really answer HOW it's relevant to a Diamond Storm user or a Ground-type specifically, beyond being a "Ground-type immune to Intimidate," which isn't particularly meaningful when guaranteed Diamond Storm boosts or Defiant already wins the Lando match-up unless we make CAP31 intentionally bad and only give it Rock+Ground coverage. As such, it is really difficult for me to conclude that NG does either anything for the concept or a Ground-type Diamond Storm user.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
It doesn't undermine the selection at all, the central concept here is Diamond Storm. Both moves would pair well with Diamond Storm because their secondary effects are guaranteed. The entire point of suggesting those two moves is that we were ignoring said rule. It's extremely strange and arbitrary to try using flavour rules for a creation that is supposed to ignore said rule, but then again the rule itself is arbitrary and not based in GF's game design. It's not really polljumping to explain how Serene Grace changes Diamond Storm and other moves which themselves synergise with Diamond Storm, it's elaborating on how Serene Grace has much to offer beyond simply guaranteeing Diamond Storm's boost.
It doesn't matter if you think the rules are stupid or not, they are still rules that we choose to follow. As a community, we have all collectively decided that Legendary Signature Moves are strictly off limits unless they are necessary for the concept at hand, and since that rule was implemented, we have only come to that conclusion twice (Equilibra and CAP31).

It also should be fairly obvious with how the concept was phrased that we would only be allowing one Legendary Signature Move, and as a community we collectively decided that move should be Diamond Storm. Changing what the move is, or adding on other Legendary Signature moves, is the epitome of anti-concept.

Also to entertain the point that it's not within Gamefreak's personal philosophy to not give out signature moves, I have to disagree with this. Outside of events, this has only been done three times, and of those three times, only once has the move ever been given out to a non-Legendary Pokemon. And guess what, we still had people complain that it broke the long-held tradition that they shouldn't be giving out Legendary Signature moves like this (I know this because back in the day I complained quite a bit about how Sacred Sword was given to Aegislash). Of course, none of that is relevant to the process, but just something I wanted to bring up.

As for the part that bringing up moves like this jumps into polljumping territory, it sort of does, because none of the aspects of Serene Grace inherently imply that it needs to work with moves other than Diamond Storm or that it should. I also fail to see how the moves you talked about synergize with Diamond Storm to begin with, with the exceptions of Razor Shell and Crush Claw. But even in those two cases, the synergy they have is extremely surface level and isn't really worth exploring in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Looking at how a NGas CAP31 would work against Astrolotl, I think that it would want to be pivoted into Lotl, as it really doesn’t want to eat a burn, and the Defense drop from Fire Lash can undermine DStorm. For Torn-T, it really depends on what our SpDef is like and how much we need our item. If we’re fine to switch into Torn, NGas becomes a massive upgrade for 31. So far, I think that this ability is probably my favorite, mostly because I think it’s just one of the most interesting abilities out there, and it’s currently trapped on the super-niche Miasmaw and the low-tier Weezings (who usually prefer Levitate anyways). If we do get a high SpDef, this makes us a huge Stratagem and Equilibra check as well, in addition to other things (not trying to polljump, just hypothesizing :sphearical:). I think that this ability offers us a lot of design space, specifically to go anti-offense, one of the niches that I think CAP31 best occupies. We can wear down offensive teams that rely on Regen and prevent offensive (and defensive) abilities from activating, shutting down many of the mons offensive teams rely on, like Lotl and Lando. And for those who say it’s too powerful, at least it isn’t Poison Heal.
 
As for the part that bringing up moves like this jumps into polljumping territory, it sort of does, because none of the aspects of Serene Grace inherently imply that it needs to work with moves other than Diamond Storm or that it should. I also fail to see how the moves you talked about synergize with Diamond Storm to begin with, with the exceptions of Razor Shell and Crush Claw. But even in those two cases, the synergy they have is extremely surface level and isn't really worth exploring in my opinion.

The question was what Serene Grace offered to a Diamond Storm user outside of a guaranteed boost. I maintain that Serene Grace opens several doors for moves that either benefit from Diamond Storm's use or benefit the use of Diamond Storm (or in two cases, both). I am not saying all of these moves have to be used. I am not saying we have to use any of the moves. I am elaborating on entire roles that are enabled by the combination of both Serene Grace and Diamond Storm that some other users stated they didn't understand, or some users (like DLC) acknowledged but didn't elaborate on.
 
I'd like to voice support for Serene Grace purely for Diamond Storm. Other moves with secondary effects could be neat bonuses, but the selling point has always been being able to consistently capitalize on the move we're literally building this project around. The stats stage is likely going to heavily factor in the +2 (as it should), and that boost will be a huge selling point of CAP31's niche. As has been mentioned many times in concept assessment and other threads, CAP31 faces steep competition from other Ground types, so having a 50% chance (52.5% factoring the miss) of failing to fulfill that niche per attempt is something I could see causing it to drop off long-term in favor of more consistent mons.
I know Serene Grace + 50% chance moves seems like a noob trap, but it's a straightforward way to avoid ending up with a mon that has cool options but doesn't see high level play due to unreliability. (If you needed a paraspreader, would you ever use something that only had Zap Cannon? Diamond Storm still does damage without its effect so it's not as big of a risk but the concept is the same.)

Obviously, builds with more unboosted survivability won't mind having to fish as much, and other abilities can carve their own niches, but having that clear focus on reliably leveraging Diamond Storm's unique effect makes Serene Grace a fully viable and concept-fulfilling route that poses little if any risk of Diamond Storm getting edged out by other moves. I believe it deserves to be slated for that—even if it only interacts with one move, that move is the important one.

While I'm here, Mirror Armor is a unique and fun ability that fortifies Diamond Storm in a variety of ways. It boosts CAP31's offensive presence in a balanced way, giving it more opportunity to attack and fish for boosts by making it harder to KO or force out, making each Storm hit harder by preventing attack drops, as well as making its boosts harder to remove. It's been well-supported already but I wanted to add my support as this also seems particularly pro-concept (and kind to the artists.)
 

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
I am not saying all of these moves have to be used. I am not saying we have to use any of the moves.
I'd also like to preemptively pose a counterargument to "We don't have to run Crush Claw / Razor Fang / Poison Fang with Serene Grace." If these moves are brought up in the first place to support Serene Grace, then the implication is that they ought to be run.
----

I also want to say that Defiant feels more applicable than Mirror Armor. Yes, reflecting drops is good, but it doesn't necessarily do much to enable Diamond Storm. Boosting Attack, however, definitely does, especially given how quite a few current Defoggers are weak to Diamond Storm. Thus, I feel that Defiant fits the concept better than Mirror Armor.

Corrosion doesn't feel right on this CAP. I agree with Dex that this would become less of a Diamond Storm Pokemon and more of a Corrosion Toxic mon (due to the sheer strength of Corrosion Toxic), which shifts project's goals. Thus, I don't think Corrosion Toxic should be slated. Neutralizing Gas does enable Diamond Storm pretty well admittedly (for reasons already pointed out in this thread), but it feels grossly overpowered for this project. It's one of those abilities that's hard to argue against because, yes, it's obviously good! But do we actually need that power? I'm leaning towards no for now.
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top CAP Contributor
Moderator
The entire point of suggesting those two moves is that we were ignoring said rule. It's extremely strange and arbitrary to try using flavour rules for a creation that is supposed to ignore said rule, but then again the rule itself is arbitrary and not based in GF's game design.
We are ignoring the rule, but we are only ignoring it once. A singular time. Uno, baby. I will continue to highlight this fact any time we suggest sidestepping it. This does not suddenly open the flood gates for us to break the rule more.

Legendary exclusive moves are some of the strongest moves in the game, so it is reasonable they are banned in a standard process. The power these moves risk introducing to the meta makes the ban a competitive decision, not flavor. Instead of cherry-picking the moves that should be banned, it is much easier to claim that all legendary exlusive moves are banned. It catches every current (and future) problematic move we would want removed while also banning some dog water options. This does not exempt them from the flat rule.

It's not really polljumping to explain how Serene Grace changes Diamond Storm and other moves which themselves synergise with Diamond Storm, it's elaborating on how Serene Grace has much to offer beyond simply guaranteeing Diamond Storm's boost.
Speaking of dog water, a guaranteed boost is not saving most of these moves. I have already made my case on why these moves are bad and do not feel like repeating myself. Most of these moves are a wasted moveslot and a desperate attempt to justify an ability that provides no substantial depth.

On the topic of polljumping, we have to operate within the guidelines of what we currently know for a fact. In this case, this would be any guranteed moves (Diamond Storm) and STAB options. Anything else cannot be considered for an argument to support Serene Grace. Coverage? Polljump. Utility? Polljump. Recovery? Polljump. Like you said, we do not have to use any of these options. That alone should indicate discussing them is a polljump, but to echo Snake's counter argument, "If these moves are brought up in the first place to support Serene Grace, then the implication is that they ought to be run."

To summarize, Serene Grace is limited in what it enables since we can only use arguments based off of what we already know about CAP 31. To list any move that is not Diamond Storm nor STAB is a polljump. The current polljumps are terrible options that offer nothing meaningful and are actually solid arguments as to why Serene Grace should not be considered.

----

On the topic of Corrosion and Neutralizing Gas, I am not opposed to either option. I think Corrosion on CAP 31 is rather limited in the mons it is trying to address compared to something like Venomicon-P when it was up for consideration then. I do not think these niche matchup changes will significantly overshadow Diamond Storm. If anything, it might be a bit too specific compared to other abilities we have discussed. That would be the only reason not to consider it in my eyes. As for Neutralizing Gas, it immediately improves disadvantagous Diamond Storm matchups making it a compelling option to consider. It is clearly a strong ability, and if we want to pursue it, we should have the option to do so. I would also like to mention that it is far too early in the project to call something like Neutralizing Gas overpowered considering our last user is struggling to perform in the meta.
 
Last edited:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Honestly, thinking more, I'd support slating both Defiant and Mirror Armor. As I explained in my above post, I believe they both are very concept relevant, by letting us stay in even after being Intimidate cycled, and importantly, both have very different implications for the balancing of the rest of the mon. Defiant completely changes how the mon interacts with a ton of the meta, gives us access to free boosting, and all that jazz, while Mirror Armor has nearly zero side-effects beyond blanking Lando. The diversity between these two makes me want both on slate.

---

Going to second Flash Fire as being very concept relevant. When building atm Ground-types (eg Garchomp, Lando, Gastrodon) are often put onto teams specifically because they're some of the few mons that can switch into Heatran (offensive and defensive) more than once without being completely crippled, even if Air Balloon Tran runs through Lando. By fulfilling this defensive role it becomes a lot easier to adapt CAP 31 onto standard team structures without having to overly worry about how to build with it.

By the same virtue, Water Absorb is also a fairly solid ability, trading the ability to be put over other grounds freely for having a proper unique defensive niche as "denier of Rotom-Wash/Volcanion". I don't love this one as much cause I don't love whenever a CAP completely blanks a semi-common mon in the meta (non-wisp rotom dies instantly), but this one is very valid.
 
I've come around on Neutralizing Gas after initially dismissing it as a bit of a meme.

Astrolotl and Tornadus-T are two pokemon whose playstyles are largely dependent on Regenerator. Should we be concerned CAP31’s ability to switch into these two and deny Regenerator? Is being able to hard punish Astrolotl and Tornadus-T for coming in a desirable trait for CAP31, or does it further distract from our intentions of using Diamond Storm?

I feel like 50% of what we wanted by choosing Diamond Storm is to be able to punish flyspam - so it was very much my intention, at least, for Diamond Storm to make CAP31 into a 'mon that hard-punished Tornadus-T (and other fliers). Neutralizing Gas makes us the ultimate punisher of Torn, and makes up for us not having a resistance to its STAB with our typing choice - now it gets nothing from running from us, but can't really afford to stay in either. Beating Fires is also a thing one likely wants ground types with rock moves to be good at doing, so improving an Astrolotl match-up seems good for CAP31's niche in the meta. It isn't my favorite way to punish Astrolotl - it's still rough that we just have to eat WoW from it and that makes me prefer Flash Fire, Poison Heal, Comatose, or Water Bubble (not a hill I want to die on but I'll keep mentioning it :sphearical:) - but it for sure does something to Astrolotl.

What has really brought me around is how good it is for so many of our bad match-ups:
  • One way for us to to beat Landorus is a way to avoid Intimidate so we can fish for DStorm boosts and win a shoot-out (stats depending, of course). While this doesn't hard-punish Lando the way Mirror Armor or Defiant would, it helps the matchup somewhat significantly. And unlike Oblivious or Rattled (abilities I've dismissed previously as too weak) this does more than just answer Lando-T.
  • Equilibra is only a B-ranked 'mon for now, but I've mentioned before it is a nigh-unbeatable nightmare for CAP31 on paper. We could fix that in movepool, maybe, but this just straight up turns Libra from a reliable switch-in for CAP31 to a total dog to us. I haven't given much mind to Rotom-W, but it nukes that sucker too.
  • Corvknight is another one of our most-common switch-ins we think. My analytic analysis yesterday showed we might be able to wear it down with good coverage or good stats, but it will cost us ALL of our PP. So halving that by ignoring pressure is a really nice boon. This match-up is still bad, but anything helps.
  • I don't think this helps that much versus the other Regenerators of the tier - I think we still lose to Slowbro and then it heals once it forces us out/kills us. But for an opponent that missteps into our Ground STAB, it does ensure that Slowking and Toxapex (two other threats we fear) can't heal off some of that damage as they pivot back out.
It also improves a few of the other Match-ups we wanted to presumably be good at, given our typing and access to Diamond Storm.
  • We won't need to shoot off 3+ DStorms to kill Weavile the way we will Corv, but it does preserve PP if Weavile decides to try to stay in and anything that preserves our precious 8 PP on Diamond Storm has value imo.
  • It makes it much harder for Dragonite to come in or stay in when we can mollywhop it and ignore its Multiscale defense.
  • It makes us have a slightly easier time coming in on Venomicon-E (for its Poison-stab, at least) and Melmetal.
  • But most importantly, and invaluably, it makes us much better at killing Venomicon-P since it won't get defense boosts as we rock it down.

I think in general it makes us much better at clicking Diamond Storm and leveraging our STAB; while there's a fear it could overshadow the process we have more control in making sure it doesn't make Diamond Storm an irrelevant part of CAP31's kit. I wouldn't say I like it more than Defiant, but I think I do like it more than Mirror Armor.
-------------------------
Speaking of abilities that could completely overshadow the process or make Diamond Storm obsolete, however, I am not sure how I feel about Corrosion.
Should we be worried about Toxic(or Poison Gas) being a near guaranteed click on the first turn CAP31 comes out? In this sense, is Corrosion able to promote competitive play? How restricting is Corrosion to the opponent when one of their Pokemon is guaranteed to be poisoned?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: The draw of Corrosion is the ability to wear down 'mons that are immune to Poison. This is for sure another way to improve our horrendous Match-ups with Corviknight and Equilibra. Normally it'd improve other match-ups for us, buuuuuutttt...

  • Heatran is never going to come within a thousand feet of CAP31, not even with its balloon.
  • It would give extra punishment to Ferro, but we have other ways we can explore later on improving this match-up; it isn't even that bad on paper since our ground STAB hits for neutral.
  • Our ground STAB already heavily pressures Melmetal.
  • Our ground STAB already heavily pressures Toxapex.
  • Diamond Storm already pressures the Books.
  • Magnezone isn't going to risk coming within a thousand feet of CAP31.
  • We already pressure Slowking-Galar with our ground STAB
  • It's a little extra "oomph" to wear down Cawmodore, but I'm not overly concerned with Cawmodore coming in recklessly on us.
  • Nihelgo isn't going to risk coming within a thousand feet of CAP31.
  • Scizor isn't a real threat to CAP 31, and is hit neutrally by both our primary attacks.
  • It would help versus Skarmory, but there are other ways to improve this matchup and Skarm is sorta rare in the meta these days.

So really, we're doing it for Corviknight and Equilibra. That isn't that many match-ups! But the threat and promise of being able to safely just click that move, over and over, is 100% going to distract from Diamond Storm. We've already seen 'mons like Landorus dropping rock coverage to just click Toxic; if Lando could Toxic Equilibra and Corviknight it'd be even more oppressive. I don't think it's too good, but it does seem both needless compared to other abilities that hit more relevant match-ups and seems a terrible risk to the concept overall.
 
First post in CAP31 so forgive me if I've missed anything.

I agree with several of the esteemed users above that Neutralizing Gas is a process-warping ability that immediately takes the focus off Diamond Storm. Also I feel sad for Miasmaw. I do think it opens up a lot of possibilities for roles.

Corrosion I think is less process-warping. Because we have STAB Ground, most of the Steels and Poisons that are immune to Toxic aren't switching in anyway. The relevant pool it is limited to is basically Corviknight, Venomicon and Equilibra, but these are huge pokemon to gain an advantage over. I just don't like this one much because Ground doesn't actually synergize super well with Corrosion as they have a lot of overlapping targets, and I think it's fine to let Corv check us.

Poison Heal seems to mesh well with our profile for a number of reasons.
1) The status absorption drastically improves our matchup against Heatran, Lando-t, Astro and Toxapex, as well as mons that randomly run Toxic like Zapdos, Zeraora, Pajantom and Melmetal, all of which we can hit super hard. Depending on stats and moves, we might even be able to take a weak Scald from the other bulky Waters and threaten back with a utility move. It also instantly grants us a niche in an important team role that is currently basically limited to Clefable and Fini.
2) We become a Knock absorber once the orb is activated, which improves our matchup vs basically every mon that runs Knock, including being an extra-fuck you to Lando. Helps vs Torn-t and Zera, which we would very much like to beat.
3) We resist Rock and absorb status, so we don't need to hold boots.
4) All of this is in addition to having bass-boosted Leftovers. Passive healing helps alleviate lack of boots by healing off spikes damage. Also improves our matchup slightly vs Ferro. Other than Hippo and Gastro, the other Grounds in the meta struggle with chip.

We become maybe the only mon in the meta that is (after activation) basically impervious to the both Knock and Toxic, the two most common moves used to make free progress by a lot of pokemon. We are able to fully sit on Lando, Zera, Zapdos, Colossoil, Pex, and probably others.

I think Poison Heal is dummy strong, but I like it because it just synergizes so well. This would be using a significant portion of our power budget though.

Defiant: I like this a lot, definitely a lot more than Mirror Armor because it fits Diamond Storm better. Defiant raises attack (Diamond Storm is physical), and Defiant deters Defog much more than Mirror Armor, and a lot of Defog users are weak to rock.

Water Absorb: I like this. Clear utility vs bulky Waters. Will need to compensate with moves that actually threaten Waters. Provides a clear niche because Gastro is dong.

Flash Fire: I like this, but a little less than Water Absorb. It is a fuck-you to Astro, but Heatran can still Toxic us on the switch and Pyroak can predict and use Grass move.

Shed Skin: Don't like the double reliance on RNG.

Moxie/Speed Boost: I like both of these for similar reasons and do not think they would be too strong. I like Moxie a little better because Speed Boost overlaps with Diamond Storm's boost a little bit in its anti-revenge killing effect.

Serene Grace: This one is purely for 95% +2 Def when clicking Diamond Storm. Kinda boring imo.
 
Alright, time to wrap this up. These are in no particular order. Sorry if this comes out bad, I am rather tired.

Speed Boost - This is an ability not many have discussed, but I immensely feel it deserves to be slated. It pairs very well with Diamond Storm, allowing CAP31 to fish for boosts before the foe can get a hit in. Additionally, it sets CAP31 from other Ground-types in the tier out of the gate by virtue of being a Ground-type which has real speed behind it. Additionally, despite its historical usage in competitive Pokémon as sweeper fuel, Speed Boost can help a Pokémon serve a variety of roles such as an anti-offense or even defensive roles. While the ability is certainly powerful, I do feel that it is most definitely able to be balanced and also not majorly shift the focus of the process from Diamond Storm to working the ability. Speed Boost is one of the best abilities we could choose, and I believe it is more than worthy of slating.

Moxie - I would argue Moxie is stronger and a bit riskier than Speed Boost in terms of power and warping the process, but it definitely is still worth slating (if I had to choose one to slate I would prefer Speed Boost, but I do feel both should get onto slate). Moxie allows CAP31 to use Diamond Storm to snowball into a sweeper that uses Defense boosts to remain in play for as long as possible, or alternatively have a bulkier role that uses Attack boosts to punch holes in teams while Diamond Storm fortifies its defenses. From Buzzwole to Kartana, we have a fair bit of flexibility in playstyles to choose from when designing with Moxie. Others have discussed it at length so I’m gonna leave it here, but I feel both Speed Boost and Moxie deserve to be slated.

Unaware - Unaware allows CAP31 to better handle many set up sweepers in the metagame, from Dragonite to Pyroak. Additionally, ignoring Bulk Up from Zeraora significantly reduces the complexity of our matchup, letting us check it more easily. Even for Pokémon like Venomicon-E and Zapdos-Galar which we get chunked by to where even Unaware cannot come in on them, Unaware reduces the potency of these sorts of Pokémon as offensive checks if we get a Diamond Storm boost. As a final note, Unaware has the distinct honor of being one of two abilities capable of allowing CAP31 to be able to feasibly break Venomicon offensively, given how we ignore its Stamina boosting (and it comes without the issues of that other ability). Unaware is an ability with numerous impacted matchups one way or another, and its applications definitely warrant it to be slated. It is among the somewhat tamer abilities I like, but it is a very interesting ability nonetheless.

Misty Surge (or Comatose) - Of the status blocking abilities, Misty Surge is my favorite. It is an ability which removes status, with it being imo one of the biggest struggles CAP31 currently is set to face as a Ground type with Diamond Storm. Toxic is a problem for the longevity of any Ground-type not named Equilibra, while being burned will effectively render CAP31 useless. Why I prefer this over Poison Heal and Comatose are that I feel Poison Heal would warp the process too much and Comatose is just that ever bit stronger than Misty Surge for me, given that Comatose is permanent while Misty Surge does run out. That said, you could probably switch between Misty Surge and Comatose in terms of slate and do fine either way. Misty Surge CAP31 having the ability to switch into Dragapult’s Draco is a neat bonus though. Poison Heal has probably been brought up too much to not be slated, but honestly I really think Poison Heal just is too centralizing an ability for this process when we have other options to negate status without doing so. As I’ve mentioned before, Poison Heal does not add as much longevity on its own as one may assume, although it is obviously helpful. Basically, Misty Surge = Comatose >> Poison Heal.

Water Absorb - This has been talked to death, but basically Scald + Surging Strikes immunities on their own is a great combination. Throw in being able to deal with Water-types like Tapu Fini and Slowbro on top mixed with a way to get some health back and you’ve got a real good ability. I personally prefer Water Absorb over Flash Fire, as Water Absorb hits a wider line of targets compared to Flash Fire. The healing given by Water Absorb helps too. Scald being more common than just plain Will-o-Wisp is another reason why Water Absorb is my preferred choice of immunity abilities. Flash Fire is still cool though.

Poison Heal - Like I mentioned in the status ability section, this is just too warping of the process for me to like it anymore, especially given our other options.

Corrosion / Neutralizing Gas - Both of these abilities have a similar problem for me: they both are incredibly centralizing. Corrosion would mean Toxic, which is definitely able to oust Diamond Storm, especially evident in how many Ground-types like Landorus use Toxic to pressure Flying-types over using Stone Edge. Given how Corrosion makes Toxic go through Steels too, it just seems like a recipe to make a Corrosion Ground-type as opposed to a DStorm Ground-type. Neutralizing Gas does have strong uses, such as disabling Regen pivots and Venomicon’s Stamina, but its effects are so wide that it very much risks at least making NGas the focus if not necessarily breaking the mon. NGas is also an ability that could almost exclusively be used offensively, and while stuff like Unaware also leans in a specific direction for play style, there really is no caveats to it on NGas. Don’t slate these, please.

Defiant / Mirror Armor - While I absolutely get the idea behind both of these, they both feel very like mediocre options. Defiant does have the ability to come in when others click Defog, but that idea is such a headache of mind games of both sides being painfully aware of Defiant and playing around it. This leads to CAP31 caring more about coming in on Defog than actually using Diamond Storm. Corviknight itself Defogs too, and there’s a decent chance for it to not even care about Diamond Storm a whole lot even at +2. It just feels very weird. Mirror Armor doesn’t have that issue of making the process about itself, but given that Astrolotl can click Wisp and we don’t care about lowering SpD as a likely physical attacker, all Mirror Armor does is serve as an “I hate Intimidate” button which… go off I guess, but I feel it just is not strong enough for what we want. Both abilities feel like they’re not good fits for CAP31, and I hope they are not slated.

Rattled / Weak Armor - Despite my love of Speed Boost, I really dislike these two. Rattled finds 31 as being pivoted on, without an item, or at -1 Attack when this triggers. None of these positions are great even with a speed boost, and with what we know of CAP31 right now it just feels counterproductive. Weak Armor is perhaps even more counterintuitive, with our speed boosts coming at the price of our Defense. I get the idea of using Diamond Storm to get Defense back to neutral as opposed to boosting it, but this is not only mediocre overall but puts large pressure on stats to give us switch in opportunities given our wide number of neutralities. Please no.

Serene Grace - Diamond Storm is the only move we can bet on being affected. I do like the idea behind guaranteeing boosts, but given that this is the one move we have to exploit Serene Grace, it feels extremely weak for our first ability. I would be willing to hear this out during Secondary, though.

Once again, sorry if my sleepiness makes this post suck. Can’t wait to see what slate turns out to be!
 
Echoing Revi about Serene Grace: it's undoubtedly one of the most interactive Abilities with regards to Diamond Storm, but it leaves us without any real direction to go with. It makes Diamond Storm more consistent but doesn't offer us anything else that might help us settle into the metagame. At worst, having and not having Serene Grace could result in almost identical games if we simply got lucky with 50% odds or never find a real opportunity to use said boosts to our advantage. Compare that to something like Immunity or Own Tempo, which don't have the most bombastic effects on their own, but give us a clear advantage in certain matchups we otherwise may be lacking in.

Our Primary Ability should serve as a driving force in what 31 does going forward. Serene Grace, while making the move more reliable, isn't offering us anything new in terms of what we bring to a team and how we play. We already want to be clicking Diamond Storm, and many of the suggested Abilities so far all encourage doing this on top of the other benefits they provide. I think Serene Grace works best as a secondary component to out kit for off-shoot sets that feel comfortable forgoing our Primary for ensuring that any Diamond Storms we land always provide us with +2 Defense, or any benefits other moves we have could receive. This aspect of Serene Grace is a lot more enticing the more we know about 31, and how it interacts with the metagame as a whole, compared to how little we know about it now.
 
Just like to share my thoughts before this wraps up.

I think we'd like the ability to offer something apart from what Diamond Storm already offers, and at the same time have the ability be something that complements Diamond Storm particularly / highly encourages the usage of the move.

There is something to be said for avoiding some abilities that are pretty much overpowered, would highly benefit almost any CAP, and aren't targeting enough the nature of the move itself (which is the framework this time).

Also I'd argue that if the opponent sees the potentials for likely good "edge-quake" damage and a defensive boost, then their immediate answer would be more defensive counterplays if they have them at hand (special attackers tending to have lower defense is a factor as well). Or perhaps using a fatter check to pivot in Urshifu-Rapid or something else that may "outboost" 31.

So as for the best fits to the above, I'd say Misty Surge, Water Absorb, and Unaware are the best options that are both focused and strong. Immunity is a strong contender and sounds like a more balanced alternative to Misty Surge if that's desired. I'm warming up to Quziel's suggestion of Flash Fire (see what I did there), since it turns fire types into setup opps, blocks Wisp, and helps become very threatening to Corv. So I think FF leans towards being one of the best options as well.
One more somewhat focused ability that I think is a contender is Mirror Armor which has that nice feature of reversing intimidate onto Lando without removing focus like Defiant arguably does. But Mirror Armor doesn't offer more than that against other counterplays and Swords Dance is an option to outpace Intimidate, so this ability not as focused or strong as the ones listed above. Still a contender though imo.

I can't say the word focus enough sorry, but my abilities stated have enough focus on: Diamond's Storm boost effectiveness, 31's longevity, DS opportunities, and/or reducing the amount of DS clicks since it has relatively low PP.

Personally I wouldn't highly support some of the abilities others brought up, because either they: don't have / remove DS focus, don't help prevent some defensive counterplay, or are focused but don't offer enough (Serene Grace & Own Tempo) / rely on RNG (Shed Skin).

Lastly, I'd like to say I think the combo of 1/8 healing, status immunity, typing, likely good immediate damage, and defense boosting in a single turn is what would put Poison Heal over the edge and so PH takes too much of the power budget.
 
Last edited:
As the thread comes to a close, I'm going to go on a little spiel about abilities I think people have been talking about consistently.

Water Absorb: This ability is deceptively valuable as a Ground type, and has added utility in preventing one of the main sources of burns. This is still convincingly my favorite ability because of it's power level, but also leaving us open to have a greater power budget for later.

Poison Heal: This feels like TOO much. Guaranteed 12.5% healing per turn, status immunity, and a powerful offensive type and coverage, just feels like it'll be hard to balance around in the stat and move pool phases. I'm not saying I'm opposed to the idea, but we could easily end up poisoning the future balance of the mon.

Unaware: Ignoring enemy buffs is very in concept in my opinion. Our main goal is to create a mon focused around self boosting while also being a strong offensive presence. Being able to laugh in the face of Swords Dances and Belly Drums will help make our buffs feel more influential as well as helping us break through Calm Minds and, ironically, the CAP 31 ditto.

Mirror Armor: This ability is a gigantic "I hate Landorus" button. It really doesn't do that much in practice aside from blocking Intimidate and preventing RNG debuffs from moves like Shadow Ball. Our Landorus matchup isn't poor enough to warrant an ability who's only consistent game to game use is bonking Landorus and maybe Cawmodore?

Rattled/Speed Boost/Weak Armor: I don't really think these abilities do as much for us in practice as on paper. Rattled and Weak Armor require us to take damage to activate, and Rattled specifically only procs on like 3 types in the game, which is just too unreliable. The main thing to keep in mind with these abilities is how they compete with Choice Scarf. Scarfing CAP 31 is something we might see if our speed tier is in a position where a single buff lets us outspend crucial threats, and we have to ask, would we rather have a Scarf, or an ability that MIGHT let us get the speed we need. Speed Boost is the only exception because of it's consistency relative to Rattled and Weak Armor, but most Speed Boost mons sacrifice a move slot for Protect to guarantee a boost. Are we willing to commit to having even tighter moveslot margins?

Misty Surge: Blocking status has been a big conversation point in the thread so far, and Misty Surge is probably the strongest option outside of Poison Heal, which I feel is too dominant. Misty Surge would also help our Dragon-type matchup, and that's worth considering. I'm not against Misty Surge, but really at the end of the day, getting Toxic'd isn't the end of the world for an offensively oriented mon, and preventing Burn feels much more valuable, which in my opinion Water Absorb does just as well by preventing Scald. Keep in mind Will o' Wisp users are predominantly Fire and Ghost types, and Fire types are not going to want to tank a Diamond Storm on the switch.

Moxie/Defiant: These abilities are very similar in that they grant us extra power for staying in and doing what we were already doing. Moxie is in my opinion more consistent alone, but Defiant is much stronger if we have a viable second ability, because even the threat of Defiant accomplishes the same purpose in preventing Intimidate and Defog. I don't dislike these abilities, but both benefit from a strong secondary ability, which I think is almost required for Defiant to reach the power threshold we need to distinguish ourselves from the other Grounds in the tier.

Last but not least, Neutralizing Gas: This one surprised me when it appeared in the thread. I don't really know exactly what the intended purpose of the ability on this mon is, but my guess is primarily Intimidate blocking, Levitate blocking, and Pressure blocking. All of these are extremely valuable on a Physical attacking Ground-type with a strong coverage move with low PP. I'm sure NG will give us other more matchup specific boons, but these universal attributes are still enough for me to think it's a worthy contender for a spot in the vote.
 

dex

En Aften Ved Svanefossen
is an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
Mirror Armor: This ability is a gigantic "I hate Landorus" button. It really doesn't do that much in practice aside from blocking Intimidate and preventing RNG debuffs from moves like Shadow Ball. Our Landorus matchup isn't poor enough to warrant an ability who's only consistent game to game use is bonking Landorus and maybe Cawmodore?
Mirror Armor does more than this against Landorus; it essentially refutes landorus's ability to pressure CAP 31 meaningfully without Toxic, making it much easier to play around. Also, Cawmodore has never and will never use Intimidate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top