Bulky Gyarados EVs

[Colonel M]

Here are the rules to this:

1) Everyone is allowed to vote.
2) If you do post you can only say "voted for spread #1" and such.
3) This poll will be closed on Tuesday.

You are voting for Bulky Gyarados EV spread. Please remember that your vote does count. The one that is deemed most useful will be represented in the set. The latter two will be mentioned in Other Options. If the original EVs are chosen then the other three will be briefed in Other Options. If any of the other three are elected upon as best the original EVs will be thrown out.

Poll Options

Option 1: 152 HP / 176 Atk / 36 Def / 144 Spe
Option 2: 152 HP / 168 Def / 188 Spe
Option 3: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe
Option 4: EV Spread Currently on the Analysis


The Offensive Gyarados EV spread's calcs:

[B]ON THE OFFENSIVE[/B]
 
+1 Stone Edge vs 252/0 Zapdos: 98.44%-115.89%
+1 Stone Edge vs 252/220 Bold Zapdos: 70.83%-83.33%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 252/68 Impish Dusknoir: 44.9%-53.06%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 6/0 Gengar: 114.94%-135.25%
-- Waterfall vs 6/0 Gengar: 76.63%-90.42%
 
-- Waterfall vs 252/0 Scizor: 38.66%-45.64%
-- Waterfall vs 6/0 Scizor: 47.16%-55.67%
 
-- Earthquake vs 6/0 Lucario: 104.61%-123.4%
--Waterfall vs 6/0 Lucario: 62.77%-74.11%
 
-- Waterfall vs 6/0 Heracross: 55.63%-65.56%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 252/252 Impish Swampert: 37.87%-44.8%
+1 Waterfall vs 252/0 Swampert: 53.47%-63.12%
 
+1 Stone Edge vs 136/156 Starmie: 53.9%-63.73%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 252/8 Relaxed Bronzong: 46.75%-55.03%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 252/96 Relaxed Forretress: 35.31%-41.81%
 
+1 Waterfall vs 252/252 Impish Skarmory: 33.83%-39.82%
 
+1 Stone Edge vs 252/252 Bold Celebi: 29.46%-34.9%
 
-- Waterfall vs 252/252 Bold Porygon2: 27.27%-32.35%
 
+1 Earthquake vs 240/76 Jirachi: 76.31%-89.78%
+1 Waterfall vs 240/76 Jirachi: 45.89%-54.11%
 
 
 
I could go against the entire OU metagame but these are pretty much the only pokemon that Gyarados will encounter regularly. No one is going to switch Salamence, Heatran, Gliscor and whatnot into Gyarados. Without further ado, onto the defensive calculations. Since Special Defense wise both me and Raikoulovers will be the same, I will not post any calculations on this spectrum.
 
[B]ON THE DEFENSIVE[/B]
 
-1 Lucario's Extremespeed: 23.37% -27.72%
-1 Lucario's Close Combat: 26.09%-30.98%
+1 Lucario's Extremespeed: 52.17%-61.68%
+1 Lucario's Close Combat: 58.97%-69.57%
 
Lucario will never beat you, even with Stealth Rock down.
 
-1 Heracross' Close Combat: 22.01%-26.09%
-1 Heracross' Stone Edge: 49.18%-57.88%
-- Heracross' Close Combat: 33.15%-39.13%
-- Heracross' Stone Edge: 73.37%-86.41%
 
Heracross needs a Choice Band, Stealth Rock and a good hit from Stone Edge to fell this beast.
 
-- Metagross' Meteor Mash: 29.08%-34.51%
+1 Metagross' Meteor Mash: 43.75%-51.63%
 
Sadly, without intimidate, these hurt. But then again, few pokemon can take a Choice Banded Meteor Mash this well.
 
-1 Jolly LO Gallade Psycho Cut: 30.43%-35.87%
+1 Jolly LO Gallade Psycho Cut: 68.48%-80.71%
 
Needs a Swords Dance and Life Orb to kill you off.
 
-1 Jolly LO Mamoswine Stone Edge: 59.51%-70.11%
-1 Jolly LO Mamoswine Ice Fang: 29.08%-34.24%
-1 Jolly LO Mamoswine Ice Shard: 18.21%-21.47%
 
 
Pretty scary, but Stone Edge won't kill you. Avoid LO Mamoswine.
 
-1 Scizor LO Bullet Punch: 14.95%-17.66%
+1 Scizor LO Bullet Punch: 33.42%-39.4%
+3 Scizor LO Bullet Punch: 55.43%-65.22%

The Defensive EVs calcs:

[B]ON THE OFFENSIVE[/B]
 
+1 Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Calm Zapdos - 81.77-96.35%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 252/220 Bold Zapdos - 59.90-70.83%
 
+1 Waterfall vs. 6/0 Gengar - 99.23-117.24%
 
--Waterfall vs. 6/0 Lucario - 56.45-66.54%
 
+1 Stone Edge vs. 136/156 Starmie - 46.78-55.25%
 
--Waterfall vs. 6/0 Scizor - 40.78-48.22%
+1 Waterfall vs. 6/0 Scizor - 60.99-72.34%
--Waterfall vs. 252/0 Scizor - 33.43-39.53%
+1 Waterfall vs. 252/0 Scizor - 50-59.30%
 
+1 Waterfall vs. 6/0 Heracross - 72.52-85.43%
 
+1 Waterfall vs. 6/0 Azelf - 84.19-99.6%
 
 
[B]ON THE DEFENSIVE[/B]
 
-1 Choice Scarf Heracross, Close Combat - 18.7-22%
--Choice Scarf Heracross, Stone Edge (while revenging)- [I][B]63.4-74.79%[/B][/I]
-1 Choice Band Heracross, Close Combat - [I][B]28.45-33.3%[/B][/I]
 
Choice Band Metagross, Meteor Mash - [B]37.67%-44.44%[/B]
 
+1 Lucario, Extremespeed - 44.99-53.11%
 
-1 Life Orb Mamoswine, Ice Shard - [I][B]15.72-18.7%[/B][/I]
-1 Life Orb Mamoswine, Stone Edge - [I][B]52-61.24%[/B][/I]
 
+1 Life Orb Scizor, Bullet Punch - [I][B]28.45-33.6%[/B][/I]
+3 Life Orb Scizor, Bullet Punch - [I][B]47.15-55.88%[/B][/I]

The third EV spread lacks damage calculations but has this to add:

156 HP ensures that it never is 2HKOed by Timid Life Orb Heatran's Fire Blast with Stealth Rocks and Leftovers taken into account. 108 Atk allows Gyarados to always 2HKO 252 Def / 148 HP Bold Blissey, factoring Stealth Rocks and Leftovers. 144 Spe is to outspeed Gengar after a Dragon Dance. 100 Defense is EV leftover, but it's really necessary to tank hits from the likes of Lucario, Scizor, and Heracross

I'd like to thank skiddle, RaikouLover, and umbarsc for suggesting these EV spreads and for the former two for calculations. Umbarsc gave a nice description to his.

 

[CHENN]

Voted for Spread #3

 

[RaikouLover]

So heres my chance to talk about the new spread:

I voted for my own, obviously. The problem I have with this spread is:

156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe

first and foremost, it doesn't outrun Starmie, which is a 100% must for Gyarados as I've mentioned so many times. Then I feel like the attack EVs are made to feel like they are accomplishing something significant by 2HKOing Blissey. Since when has Gyarados EVER had trouble with Blissey? This spread is too spread out, the EVs aren't concentrated enough. Its more like.. "a little here and a little there." You almost never see EV spreads that wide on the analysis for a reason. This spread will probably win, but I'd prefer skiddle's spread to this one for that reason alone.

 

[gorm]

if you're using bulkygyara you arent trying to beat starmie so =(

 

[RaikouLover]

why wouldn't you? Starmie isn't always at full health! If Starmie is hanging around 40-50% or so, wouldn't you want to kill it and finish the match? The same goes for Raikou and Azelf, making 3 pokemon that could end your sweep.

 

[Bourbon]

Here is my opinion on the spreads.

The idea behind mine is that I always felt that Bulky Gyarados really lacked the power to sweep. Compared to LO Offensive Gyarados, if you can get two DDs out of Bulky Gyarados, it has was less power. For this reason, I tried to pump a little more power into it. The main benchmarks these extra attack EVs hit is that it can OHKO Zapdos with +1 Stone Edge, and OHKO Gengar with Waterfall provided Stealth Rocks are up. It is inferior defensively to the other spreads, but still takes hits better than DD LO Gyarados. In retrospect, I am not sure it is tough enough to take on anything outside of fighting types anymore. This might be a problem, but that's usually what Gyarados is for anyways.

Raikoulover's Gyarados would be my second choice. It's a great deal faster than the other two, which has to count for something. It's also the toughest. If you are using Gyarados because of it's defensive capabilities, and not a sweeper, Raikoulover's spread is really great. I just wish it had a bit more power. It's a great deal better than the current Bulky Gyarados spread we have now. I would be perfectly content if you picked this one. I'm not selfish, you don't have to pick my spread.

Umbarscs is interesting, but I feel it's too... average. It's not as offensively powerful as my spread, and not as fast or tough as Raikoulovers. No one uses Life Orb Heatran anymore either, so that benchmark is pretty useless. I mean, it's a decent spread for sure, but not quite good enough to be the standard.


So in short, I urge you, vote for Raikoulovers, or mine. I don't care which, I am just not a huge fan of Umbarscs. Remember, the spread that you choose will be the OFFICIAL Bulky Gyarados spread, and will be used by pokemon players everywhere.

 

[Zoro]

Voted for Spread#3

 

[Amelia]

Voted for spread#3. I think the point of BulkyGyara is to swap in, take a hit, and deal one back. It has to be bulky, and yet it has to be well, have enough attack Evs to do enough damage back.

So most probably the most balanced spread out there is the best i think.

 

[shade]

Voted for Spread #3

 

[twash]

Hmm, tough choice. I have always loved BulkyGyara's current EV spread, I have found it a great switch-in to many things. But i'm worried if we change it, it will go to far. I'm tempted to vote #3, the only one I would really consider over the current. Supposing we used the average of damage calculations, 156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe gives 7%~ less Defense than the "current", and minimal less amount of Special Defense.

The "current" spread won't be OHKOd by 132 SpA Starmie's Thunderbolt which manages 81.04% - 95.58%, and 84.32% - 99.46% to #3. Either way, the #3 option does 82.72% - 97.34% back with a +2 Return. Whilst I would love to deal an OHKO, I think if you added any more Attack EVs, it would just become more "offensive" again, losing too much defensive style.

So I am really, really tempted to vote #3, but I would personally prefer that Defense. A +1 Stone Edge from #3 does 64.58% - 76.56% to +252 / 220 Zapdos. I personally use BulkyGyara for Taunt, and therefore I would prefer to have more defensive capability. Therefore I am going to vote for the "current/original" EV spread.

 

[Anti]

I've always been a fan of the way Jumpman configured it. IMO all it needed was an adaptation to a Garchomp-less metagame.

 

[malomyotismon]

I lke a bulky gyara with a bit more of a "kick" so I would normally go for an ev spread similar or exactly the same as spred 1 as it suits my teams beter.

 

[Shelcario]

Voted Spread 3 as more HP, less attack, decent amount of defense and some speed allows for a bulky Gyarados spread, imo.

 

[Colonel M]

Remember that you're not looking for the prettiest spread on earth. This is to be considered seriously with thought to it. The new spread WILL be represented on the analysis set. If you're curious about a spread than simply test it is all I can say.

With that in mind, I fixed something of RaikouLover's calcs (you factored Intimidate I'm guessing) and also fixed the spelling of "Tuesday" (nitpicking...)

 

[Havak]

I've had a long think about it, and if you want a more powerful Gyarados, you might as well just not waste your time and go for the full on offensive Gyarados. I think this was all blown out of proportian and the Bulky Gyarados Spread might as well be a "proper" Bulky Gyarados spread IMO. So I voted for Option #2...

 

[Legacy Raider]

I quite like spread #2 - I've run quite a few calculations on it and it seems that with this spread Gyarados can beat almost any kind of Tyranitar if it switches in safely, or if Tyranitar switches into it. However, I do have a few major nitpicks about it.

I don't think it is that viable to run so many Speed EVs with the sole purpose of outrunning Jolly TTar before a dance, when only 176 Evs are needed for Gyarados to outspeed base 115s after it dances. I think at least 12 EVs should be removed from Spe and put into Atk.

It's all fine and dandy being able to outrun all base 115s, but what's the point when you can't do jack to them? Even after a DD, this Gyarados cannot OHKO 4/0 Azelf with a Waterfall. With an EQ after a DD, it manages a paltry 60% to 120/0 Starmie. Being able to outspeed them won't change the fact that they will still kill Gyarados before it can kill them.

Therefore, I am more in favour of a slower Gyarados, but one that has more Atk. Dropping the Speed down to 351 after a dance (144 EVs), or if you really must outspeed standard Starmie (who EVs to outrun Gengar), 353 after a dance (152 EVs). The EVs removed from Speed should definitely go into either HP or Attack. Depends on whether you want a bulkier fighting/Scizor counter or a tanking Gyarados that can eventually set up a sweep.

 

[Slobroking]

12 evs are nothing and wont do a lot in any other stat besides speed

 

[Legacy Raider]

I said remove at least 12 EVs from Speed. 12 Evs in Atk still do something, even if it is not very noticeable. They do not go to waste, like the 12 EVs in Speed would almost always.
And I would be in favour of removing a lot more EVs and bringing the Speed down to 234.

 

[Caelum]

If you don't mind my asking, why is this being done as a poll rather then through intelligent discussion? I can sit here all day and debate with you guys over this until we work something out if that was an issue :/

Edit: I'll vote later and make my case though anyway.

 

[Slobroking]

I said remove at least 12 EVs from Speed. 12 Evs in Atk still do something, even if it is not very noticeable. They do not go to waste, like the 12 EVs in Speed would almost always.
And I would be in favour of removing a lot more EVs and bringing the Speed down to 234.

I 'm just saying that outspeeding jolly tyranitar is far more important than adding 12 evs to attack and doing 1% more damage. 12 evs extra in speed is hardly a waste

thats all

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Legacy Rider

don't think it is that viable to run so many Speed EVs with the sole purpose of outrunning Jolly TTar before a dance, when only 176 Evs are needed for Gyarados to outspeed base 115s after it dances. I think at least 12 EVs should be removed from Spe and put into Atk.

It's all fine and dandy being able to outrun all base 115s, but what's the point when you can't do jack to them? Even after a DD, this Gyarados cannot OHKO 4/0 Azelf with a Waterfall. With an EQ after a DD, it manages a paltry 60% to 120/0 Starmie. Being able to outspeed them won't change the fact that they will still kill Gyarados before it can kill them.

Well Legacy Rider, the only problem I have with that logic is the fact that Pokemon aren't always at full health. And you probably shouldn't be attempting to sweep with Bulky Gyarados at the beginning of the match anyway. Starmie is one of those pokemon that is stretched pretty thin, having the responsibility of countering Infernape, Gyarados, and somewhat Mamoswine, in addition to spinning. So it's not often that you see them at full health. As also shown in the Calcs, Azelf stands a good chance of being KOed with the help of Stealth Rock damage if it hasn't even been revealed yet. One of the other things people forget about Bulky Gyarados is its ability to get more than one Dragon Dance if it retains its bulk. That Scarfed Heracross that is revenging you.... suppose you were to Dragon Dance again instead of killing it? Something with 236 in both defenses, 618 attack, and 488 speed can still become pretty nasty.

Originally Posted by Havak

I've had a long think about it, and if you want a more powerful Gyarados, you might as well just not waste your time and go for the full on offensive Gyarados. I think this was all blown out of proportian and the Bulky Gyarados Spread might as well be a "proper" Bulky Gyarados spread IMO. So I voted for Option #2...

This pretty much says it all. If you do want a lot of power, why compromise? Just go all out offensive.

 

[umbarsc]

But let's extend that logic and say "If you want a bulkier Gyarados, why not go all-out and go with the RestTalk set?" BulkyGyara in itself essentially IS a compromise.

Also, is there any reason to go with 168 Def EVs rather than 100? None of the calculations with the different EV spreads seem significantly different, but adding the 108 Atk EVs helps to do BulkyGyara's job at breaking walls. Outspeeding Starmie or Gengar after a DD is a matter of preference and can be changed on any of the spreads.

I voted for my spread, but I feel that this poll shouldn't be the deciding factor in anything, and that the spreads shouldn't be definite.

 

[RaikouLover]

I'm pretty sure those 108 Atk EVs aren't helping Bulky Gyarados break walls any better since the best he does to them is taunt anyway. But the reason why you want so much defense on Bulky Gyarados is because Intimidate compounds every defense point by 50%. Essentially, those 22 stat points you gain from my spread are like adding 33 stat points of defense, which can make a substatial difference. I just don't agree with his EV spread being spread out so thinly.

 

[Colonel M]

If you don't mind my asking, why is this being done as a poll rather then through intelligent discussion? I can sit here all day and debate with you guys over this until we work something out if that was an issue :/

That's the problem: we don't really have all day. I almost did an "intelligent discussion" topic but felt that if I did all we'd do is bash everyone back and forth and nothing would be done. For now we can deem whatever is chosen to be the spread to use. Later on if there seems to be more of a problem with the spread and such we can "try" to move this into a discussion instead. If you think I handled it incorrectly then... I don't know what to say. I guess all I can say now is if more weigh in an agreement to bring this into a discussion instead we can ignore the current poll, close this topic, open a new topic for the discussion, and then decide on a more efficient spread there.

 

[13blue101]

As much as I like the idea of the 3rd spread, I prefer the original/current more.