Updated team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3461496
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Beautiful Day [Non-Weather Team]
- Thread starter Bribery
- Start date
Hi, your team isn't particularly fast, yet it is very offensively oriented. As a result, a Tinkerbell Celebi would greatly benefit this team. Celebi can spread paralysis so Dragonite can spam Outrage instead of Extremespeed. As you've already stated, your team has problems with Conkeldurr, so I suggest going with Psychic as your second attacking move. Leaf Storm is the obligatory STAB and should stay on the set. I'm also going to recommend a variation I've made to the Tinkerbell set. Rest over Recover. Tink is a hit and run pokemon and will therefore take a lot of recoil damage throughout the match with very few opportunities to recover. Rest allows Celebi to have that "return from the dead" effect, coming from like 3% straight back to 100%. Rest doesn't matter since you lose status just by switching out, and Tinkerbell wont be staying in very often anyways.
It seems that Rotom-W is the weak link of this team, as many of its roles are already performed by Conkeldurr, Celebi, and Dragonite. If Heatran's Balloon is gone, DD Haxorus can very easily 6-0 your team. RP Landorus and DD Salamence can also really screw around with your team. I suggest running a Choice Band Mamoswine in its place. While Mamo isn't guaranteed to OHKO Haxorus, it can still take out a good chunk of Haxy's HP and with enough prior damage, Haxorus will go down. Mamo also takes down Landorus and Salamence with ease, and can hit ridonkulously hard with CB Earthquake.
Celebi @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
Modest
240 Hp/ 232 SpA/ 36 Spe
Leaf Storm
Psychic
Thunder Wave
Rest
Natural Cure
Modest
240 Hp/ 232 SpA/ 36 Spe
Leaf Storm
Psychic
Thunder Wave
Rest
It seems that Rotom-W is the weak link of this team, as many of its roles are already performed by Conkeldurr, Celebi, and Dragonite. If Heatran's Balloon is gone, DD Haxorus can very easily 6-0 your team. RP Landorus and DD Salamence can also really screw around with your team. I suggest running a Choice Band Mamoswine in its place. While Mamo isn't guaranteed to OHKO Haxorus, it can still take out a good chunk of Haxy's HP and with enough prior damage, Haxorus will go down. Mamo also takes down Landorus and Salamence with ease, and can hit ridonkulously hard with CB Earthquake.
Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Snow Cloak
Adamant
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Hp
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Icicle Crash
Stone Edge
Snow Cloak
Adamant
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Hp
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Icicle Crash
Stone Edge
Hey there.
DD Dragonite is a major problem since Heatran does not have any recovery and can be worn down quite easily, especially with entry hazards. CB / SD +Rock Polish Terrakion can tear your team apart as well since Conkeldurr doesn't come close to OHKO'ing it with Mach Punch. SD Toxicroak and (to a lesser extent) Bulk Up Toxicroak are also a major threats.
Rotom-W's roles are vastly limited in this team, especially since Celebi can take on rain teams pretty well. Therefore, I suggest that you replace it with a Slowbro in order to get rid of most of your weaknesses.
Defensive Slowbro
Ice Beam lets Slowbro massacre Dragonite and hit common switch-ins such as Latios for decent damage. Psychic lets is defeat the likes of Terrakion and Toxicroak quite easily. A Relaxed Nature with 29 Speed EVs is employed in order to be slower than standard Brave Conkeldurr, who can otherwise hit Slowbro very hard with Payback.
Overall, solid team. Hope I helped, and good luck!
DD Dragonite is a major problem since Heatran does not have any recovery and can be worn down quite easily, especially with entry hazards. CB / SD +Rock Polish Terrakion can tear your team apart as well since Conkeldurr doesn't come close to OHKO'ing it with Mach Punch. SD Toxicroak and (to a lesser extent) Bulk Up Toxicroak are also a major threats.
Rotom-W's roles are vastly limited in this team, especially since Celebi can take on rain teams pretty well. Therefore, I suggest that you replace it with a Slowbro in order to get rid of most of your weaknesses.
Defensive Slowbro
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Relaxed Nature (29 Speed IV)
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
Ability: Regenerator
Relaxed Nature (29 Speed IV)
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
Ice Beam lets Slowbro massacre Dragonite and hit common switch-ins such as Latios for decent damage. Psychic lets is defeat the likes of Terrakion and Toxicroak quite easily. A Relaxed Nature with 29 Speed EVs is employed in order to be slower than standard Brave Conkeldurr, who can otherwise hit Slowbro very hard with Payback.
Overall, solid team. Hope I helped, and good luck!
Choice Band Terrakion can way down your team same goes for Choice Scarf sets. Rain teams are very dangerous for you. Defensive Slowbro like ShakeItUp suggesteed can be very useful and can help you against Terrakion. Solid team and GL
Hey,
Dragon spam and mons like Terrakion / Croak are really the biggest threats to your team. Heatran and Jirachi won't be able to take continuous Outrages or Draco Meteors from Haxorus or Latios, while Terrakion gets set up on Rotom-w choice locked, or could even straight up start denting your team with a CB boosted CC. SD Scizor looks to me a very good solution to these problems. The biggest thing here is that I want your team to retain its HO style, rather than pick out a wall that hard counters everything, I'm giving you this option to have the potential to play around threats with good prediction.
Scizor resists Dragon attacks, and can threathen back immediately with a Technician Bug Bite or BP, and can check Terrakion / Croak as well with its strong priority. It still allows you to counter Reuniclus and Lati@s, but you are sacrificing room for Skarmory to set up spikes on you since Superpower can't be run effectively on this set within the context of your team.
Another more minor change you can take is using Signal Beam over Trick on Rotom-w and replacing Volt Switch with Thunderbolt, this way, Celebi and the DD + Bounce Gyarados gaining popularity are easily checked. You don't really need Trick, because on a HO team like this, you won't find too much use for it beyond crippling some walls, who you break anyway. If you want, you can keep Trick so that you can take out Bulk Up Croak, but it is a personal decision.
Good luck!
Dragon spam and mons like Terrakion / Croak are really the biggest threats to your team. Heatran and Jirachi won't be able to take continuous Outrages or Draco Meteors from Haxorus or Latios, while Terrakion gets set up on Rotom-w choice locked, or could even straight up start denting your team with a CB boosted CC. SD Scizor looks to me a very good solution to these problems. The biggest thing here is that I want your team to retain its HO style, rather than pick out a wall that hard counters everything, I'm giving you this option to have the potential to play around threats with good prediction.
Scizor @ Leftovers | Technician
Careful | 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SpDef
Swords Dance | Bullet Punch | Bug Bite | Roost
Careful | 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SpDef
Swords Dance | Bullet Punch | Bug Bite | Roost
Scizor resists Dragon attacks, and can threathen back immediately with a Technician Bug Bite or BP, and can check Terrakion / Croak as well with its strong priority. It still allows you to counter Reuniclus and Lati@s, but you are sacrificing room for Skarmory to set up spikes on you since Superpower can't be run effectively on this set within the context of your team.
Another more minor change you can take is using Signal Beam over Trick on Rotom-w and replacing Volt Switch with Thunderbolt, this way, Celebi and the DD + Bounce Gyarados gaining popularity are easily checked. You don't really need Trick, because on a HO team like this, you won't find too much use for it beyond crippling some walls, who you break anyway. If you want, you can keep Trick so that you can take out Bulk Up Croak, but it is a personal decision.
Good luck!
Ok I made a few changes after a bit of testing.
Terrakion > Conkeldurr
CB Scizor > Specially Defensive Jirachi
Tinkerbell Celebi > NP Celebi
Thunderbolt > Trick on Rotom-W
I decided to use Terrakion > Conkeldurr for more power and speed. The extra speed sort of makes up for the lack of priority. It helped a lot with revenge killing things like CB Haxorus or Expert Belt Hydreigon. Plus, Terrakion has an easier time breaking through things like Gliscor and Skarmory, allowing Dragonite to have a field-day.
I also replaced Jirachi with CB Scizor. They check roughly the same things but Scizor can revenge kill Terrakion and Dragon Dancers. I tried Bulky SD Scizor but it was a little too weak. Plus it couldn't trap Latios so it could freely switch in and out and spam Draco Meteor. 3 Choice users is risky but 2 of them have scouting moves so it eases prediction.
I decided to use a variant of the Tinkerbell Celebi with HP Fire > Thunder Wave. I didn't like giving Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor free switch-ins. Looking back on my logs, I rarely ever swept with Celebi so Nasty Plot was hardly used. Tinkerbell hits hard right off the bat. Now it can carry all 3 of its coverage moves which helps check Conkeldurr.
Lastly I decided to use Thunderbolt > Trick on Rotom-W after getting my ass handed to me by SubDD Gyarados. Signal Beam was nice but I missed the scouting utility that Volt Switch provided so I decided to keep it.
I tried Slowbro as well and it was the perfect band-aid for the problems the team had, but it slowed down my offensive momentum a lot. I think these changes address most of the previous issues while maintaining offensive presence.
I'll update the threat list later, but Bulk Up Toxicroak is still annoying if it has Sucker Punch. I changed Heatran's nature to Timid since it can outspeed and KO the Adamant versions. TR Reuniclus and Tornadus are now a bit harder to handle without Jirachi.
Any thoughts on these changes?
Terrakion > Conkeldurr
CB Scizor > Specially Defensive Jirachi
Tinkerbell Celebi > NP Celebi
Thunderbolt > Trick on Rotom-W
I decided to use Terrakion > Conkeldurr for more power and speed. The extra speed sort of makes up for the lack of priority. It helped a lot with revenge killing things like CB Haxorus or Expert Belt Hydreigon. Plus, Terrakion has an easier time breaking through things like Gliscor and Skarmory, allowing Dragonite to have a field-day.
I also replaced Jirachi with CB Scizor. They check roughly the same things but Scizor can revenge kill Terrakion and Dragon Dancers. I tried Bulky SD Scizor but it was a little too weak. Plus it couldn't trap Latios so it could freely switch in and out and spam Draco Meteor. 3 Choice users is risky but 2 of them have scouting moves so it eases prediction.
I decided to use a variant of the Tinkerbell Celebi with HP Fire > Thunder Wave. I didn't like giving Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor free switch-ins. Looking back on my logs, I rarely ever swept with Celebi so Nasty Plot was hardly used. Tinkerbell hits hard right off the bat. Now it can carry all 3 of its coverage moves which helps check Conkeldurr.
Lastly I decided to use Thunderbolt > Trick on Rotom-W after getting my ass handed to me by SubDD Gyarados. Signal Beam was nice but I missed the scouting utility that Volt Switch provided so I decided to keep it.
I tried Slowbro as well and it was the perfect band-aid for the problems the team had, but it slowed down my offensive momentum a lot. I think these changes address most of the previous issues while maintaining offensive presence.
I'll update the threat list later, but Bulk Up Toxicroak is still annoying if it has Sucker Punch. I changed Heatran's nature to Timid since it can outspeed and KO the Adamant versions. TR Reuniclus and Tornadus are now a bit harder to handle without Jirachi.
Any thoughts on these changes?
The team is looking very solid well done, I used this team and it has a nice win rate, good luck with your team :)
I meant for it to be a non-Weather team, not a team for the Clear Skies tier. Edited the title to avoid confusion. :P
I had to bump this because it deserves more recognition. I love this team. It's able to viably exist in a realm where weather is rampant, kick ass and drink green tea (and we're all out of green tea)!
FWG defensive core can't go wrong, so that's a nice little thing you have going on. Pretty solid checks over all. And only 3 counters? I'd have to say that you truly have your bases covered.
Your Dragonite though seems like it's more frail than DDRoost Nite . However, if that is what works for you, then all the power to you :)
All in all, I have nothing bad to say about this team. Very, very solid and I commend your efforts.
Have you changed anything since your last post update? :)
FWG defensive core can't go wrong, so that's a nice little thing you have going on. Pretty solid checks over all. And only 3 counters? I'd have to say that you truly have your bases covered.
Your Dragonite though seems like it's more frail than DDRoost Nite . However, if that is what works for you, then all the power to you :)
All in all, I have nothing bad to say about this team. Very, very solid and I commend your efforts.
Have you changed anything since your last post update? :)
Usually i read times but i don't reply, now i must. The first phrase is exactly what i think about actual mg
Dragonite (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
Choice Band means you don't use Roost, and with Multiscale you can't have Superpower or Aqua Tail. I think Dragonite Lead shouldn't be a sweeper, but a pseudo-annoyer (Roost - Substitute - Thunder Wave - Dragon Tail), because it always paralyze 3-4 poke and, in the late-game, Dragon Tail also provides a great Entry Hazards damage. Even if you keep, are 252 EVs on Spd really necessary?
Heatran (F) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
Here, 252 Spd is a waste of EVs. Go for 228, movepool is ok, and Air Balloon is ok (Life Orb > Balloon with Disharge > Fire Blast is great too, but i'm sure you won't use it))
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
No offense, but that's the worst Rotom W i've ever seen :E Thunder > Thunderbolt is for much more power, with Hidden Power Grass you can hit really hard Quagsire and Lanturn, and Choice Specs over Choice Scarf allows you to oneshot almost everything, even Volt Switch does a lot of damage (and obviously Thunder STAB + Specs)
Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 192 SDef / 12 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower
EVs look like crazy, why don't you run 252 Atk 240 HP 16 Spd as always? Other stuff is ok
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
I don't like a dual-boost set on Terrakion, especially if it carries Close Combat. You can try X-Scissor over Rock Polish (i used it, and is one of the best wallbreakers) to hit Psychic- and Grass-types, especially Reuniclus, Celebi and Sawsbuck (it's a pain in the ass in a sun team)
Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SAtk / 184 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
Can be kept, but i suggest the Nasty Storm set: 252 SpAtk 252 Spd, Timid, Nasty Plot + Leaf Storm + HP Fire + filler (Recover / Psychic / Leech Seed / Something)
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
Choice Band means you don't use Roost, and with Multiscale you can't have Superpower or Aqua Tail. I think Dragonite Lead shouldn't be a sweeper, but a pseudo-annoyer (Roost - Substitute - Thunder Wave - Dragon Tail), because it always paralyze 3-4 poke and, in the late-game, Dragon Tail also provides a great Entry Hazards damage. Even if you keep, are 252 EVs on Spd really necessary?
Heatran (F) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
Here, 252 Spd is a waste of EVs. Go for 228, movepool is ok, and Air Balloon is ok (Life Orb > Balloon with Disharge > Fire Blast is great too, but i'm sure you won't use it))
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
No offense, but that's the worst Rotom W i've ever seen :E Thunder > Thunderbolt is for much more power, with Hidden Power Grass you can hit really hard Quagsire and Lanturn, and Choice Specs over Choice Scarf allows you to oneshot almost everything, even Volt Switch does a lot of damage (and obviously Thunder STAB + Specs)
Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 192 SDef / 12 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower
EVs look like crazy, why don't you run 252 Atk 240 HP 16 Spd as always? Other stuff is ok
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
I don't like a dual-boost set on Terrakion, especially if it carries Close Combat. You can try X-Scissor over Rock Polish (i used it, and is one of the best wallbreakers) to hit Psychic- and Grass-types, especially Reuniclus, Celebi and Sawsbuck (it's a pain in the ass in a sun team)
Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SAtk / 184 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
Can be kept, but i suggest the Nasty Storm set: 252 SpAtk 252 Spd, Timid, Nasty Plot + Leaf Storm + HP Fire + filler (Recover / Psychic / Leech Seed / Something)
Thanks!
I prefer CB Nite for its ability to hit hard right off the bat. It isn't really meant to survive but rather deal as much damage as possible.
The only change I made since the last update was changing Heatran to Timid. This helps a lot against Toxicroak since most of them are Adamant.
ParaShuffler DNite doesn't fit on this team at all.
Discharge on Heatran over Fire Blast? Does Heatran even learn Discharge? O_o
Thunder is unreliable on Rotom-W since I won't always be facing Rain teams. Specs Rotom is nice but I think Scarf would be better for this team. It helps revenge kill and makes a great cleaner against rain teams. HP Grass was tempting but I have Celebi to take out Gastrodon/Quagsire.
Scizor's EV spread lets it handle Latios better. The SDef EVs let it survive 2 consecutive Specs Draco Meteors, even after Stealth Rock.
Personally I don't like X-Scissor on Terrakion. It's only 10 BP stronger than Stone Edge on most Psychic Pokemon. Dual Boosting provides much more versatility because it does well against Stall and Offense teams.
I used to use NP Celebi but Tinkerbell has been more effective for me. I need all 3 coverage moves to cover certain threats.
Thanks for the suggestions though.
Is the only version i like, and, really, the only useful as lead (while you try to sweep the opponent's lead sets EH and stuff
/me n00b
I mean Lava Plume (less power, but, for me, is better, is the same for Scald / Hydro Pump on Jellicent)
Thunder works well even without rain, and HP Ice is quite unuseful if you can spam Hydro Pump and Volt Switch, but, is ok
WOW, 2 Specs Draco Meteors, i'll use it!
It can save your ass (and i know how much) against Reuniclus and Celebi, and vs Grass-types on Sunny Teams such as Sawsbuck, Exeggutor or Shiftry. Anyway, a dualboost set can work
I still don't know why this EV spread (has 100 base Spd, so, i always go for 252 Timid), but it looks good
Just out of pure curiosity but do you have problems with CB scizor? I ran a team kind of like this but it had walls and CB scizor beat me at the end all the time. I sort of look at this team and see a possible weakness to scizor :/ with a perfectly timed SP he can wreck Heatran. You do have rotom which trolls scizor though. Just a little pointer :).
one question about your team, why do you have 2 choice banded pokes? but other then that your team is awesome
I prefer Modest for more power. Celebi can't really do much to other base 100 speed Pokemon and it can't even touch Hydreigon. I suppose I could run Modest and 252 speed EVs to outrun Adamant Haxorus though.
I have 2 good checks for Scizor with Heatran and Rotom-W. It's just a matter of predicting correctly against it. Celebi actually takes out a lot of Scizor with HP Fire.
Mainly because I need the power from both Scizor and Dragonite. 3 choice users can be risky but its worth the reward imo. It's just a matter of making good predictions.
I honestly haven't had a problem with EB or LO Latios. EB is easy to predict since it hits much less than Specs or LO. Plus CB Scizor is my best check against Terrakion. SD Scizor doesn't hit hard enough to KO it.