Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings

[emma]

Reviving the thread :D

Excadrill: B+ Rank to B Rank

This mon is complete garbage in my opinion. Sand Rush, while it doubles your speed, forces you to use Tyranitar (Hippowdon sucks) which stacks water and fighting weaknesses. Although Sand Top Cut US Nats twice Excadrill was only on one of the teams, with Aaron Zheng getting rid of because it's a weak pokemon, and it was the "least used Pokemon" on the team is was featured on. It was seen once at Japan Nats and didn't even Top Cut. Sand also Top Cut Worlds twice but non featured Excadrill.
Although it can be the fastest mon on the field easily, it gets walled by Landorus-T, is forced to use Drill Run a majority of time due to the need for Tyranitar and the common Aegislash, and falls to an super effective hit do to it's frail defenses and commonly a LO. Doesn't 2HKO Amoonguss or Cresselia, get PuPd on by Kang, and is used to use -1 Rock Slide vs. Landorus-T and Thundurus. Rain/Sand takes away it's speed boost and gets walled by 1/2 the meta. Japan Sand is dropping this for Lando-I so I believe it also needs a drop in rank.

Clefable: A Rank to A- Rank (Or Lower)

Why is this higher than Hydreigon? It's a worse Clefairy, without Friend Guard it's forced to run Unaware which is clearly an inferior strat. Clefairy on the other hand gets Friend Guard and Follow Me / Icy Wind which helps so much in setting up either Mega Kangaskhan or Azumarill. In the VGC 2015 Spring Regionals Usage Stats Clefairy was used three times compared to Clefable's zero. There's no way you can tell me an inferior evolution deserves to be higher than a mon that can get to +6 in one turn and sweep.

Entei: A- Rank to B+ Rank

I haven't seen Entei do anything. It didn't Top Cut US Nats, Japan Nats, or any of the European Nationals. Hibiki dropped it from his Nats team in favor of Volcorona since "Entei was too much of a sitting duck." Furthermore Entei was called "too inconsistent" in this (linked below) Nugget Bridge Article. It's outclassed by Heatran (as showed at Worlds) and favored by Volcorona.

since attaching links isn't working
US Nats: http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/
Japan Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/864-teams-from-the-vgc-15-japanese-national-championships/
European Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/841-teams-from-the-vgc-15-european-national-championships/
Hibiki: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...c-regional-top-4-national-top-64-team-report/
Inconsistent: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...-and-7th-place-orlando-regionals-team-report/

I feel strongly about the second two noms, Excadrill might not get through but I do think it's not very good due to it's poor CHALK matchup, being forced to use Tyranitar, and poor defenses. Also, I wouldn't use anything below C (beside the megas in C-) but I don't think we should get rid of it but I do think we should get rid of D Rank since everything there is trash and it has no results. Just some thought :P

P.S. Bring Azumarill up please that thing is cash :]

 

[Omastar68]

Reviving the thread :D

Excadrill: B+ Rank to B Rank

This mon is complete garbage in my opinion. Sand Rush, while it doubles your speed, forces you to use Tyranitar (Hippowdon sucks) which stacks water and fighting weaknesses. Although Sand Top Cut US Nats twice Excadrill was only on one of the teams, with Aaron Zheng getting rid of because it's a weak pokemon, and it was the "least used Pokemon" on the team is was featured on. It was seen once at Japan Nats and didn't even Top Cut. Sand also Top Cut Worlds twice but non featured Excadrill.
Although it can be the fastest mon on the field easily, it gets walled by Landorus-T, is forced to use Drill Run a majority of time due to the need for Tyranitar and the common Aegislash, and falls to an super effective hit do to it's frail defenses and commonly a LO. Doesn't 2HKO Amoonguss or Cresselia, get PuPd on by Kang, and is used to use -1 Rock Slide vs. Landorus-T and Thundurus. Rain/Sand takes away it's speed boost and gets walled by 1/2 the meta. Japan Sand is dropping this for Lando-I so I believe it also needs a drop in rank.

Clefable: A Rank to A- Rank (Or Lower)

Why is this higher than Hydreigon? It's a worse Clefairy, without Friend Guard it's forced to run Unaware which is clearly an inferior strat. Clefairy on the other hand gets Friend Guard and Follow Me / Icy Wind which helps so much in setting up either Mega Kangaskhan or Azumarill. In the VGC 2015 Spring Regionals Usage Stats Clefairy was used three times compared to Clefable's zero. There's no way you can tell me an inferior evolution deserves to be higher than a mon that can get to +6 in one turn and sweep.

Entei: A- Rank to B+ Rank

I haven't seen Entei do anything. It didn't Top Cut US Nats, Japan Nats, or any of the European Nationals. Hibiki dropped it from his Nats team in favor of Volcorona since "Entei was too much of a sitting duck." Furthermore Entei was called "too inconsistent" in this (linked below) Nugget Bridge Article. It's outclassed by Heatran (as showed at Worlds) and favored by Volcorona.

since attaching links isn't working
US Nats: http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/
Japan Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/864-teams-from-the-vgc-15-japanese-national-championships/
European Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/841-teams-from-the-vgc-15-european-national-championships/
Hibiki: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...c-regional-top-4-national-top-64-team-report/
Inconsistent: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...-and-7th-place-orlando-regionals-team-report/

I feel strongly about the second two noms, Excadrill might not get through but I do think it's not very good due to it's poor CHALK matchup, being forced to use Tyranitar, and poor defenses. Also, I wouldn't use anything below C (beside the megas in C-) but I don't think we should get rid of it but I do think we should get rid of D Rank since everything there is trash and it has no results. Just some thought :P

P.S. Bring Azumarill up please that thing is cash :]

I'm pretty bad at doubles, but I still agree with you on Clefable. Really I don't get the mon. Sure it has better stats in all areas than th pre-evo, even bulk kinda since it can use Sitrus or w/e. But the ability is just
worse. Magic Guard is just not good in doubles(though PGL is saying it's more common, so mayb not,) and while Unaware is great in Singles, here there's less set up. Also boosts are only ignored on foe's that Clef attacks or that attack Clef. This includes debuffs, which is pretty bad.

Even though Clefable has better offenses and Spe, it's still definitely not a sweeper, and tends to be a supporter as well...but worse. Not seeing a good reason to run it. It likes to use Helmet, but Amoongus does this better since it doesn't actually ignore Intimidate drops on foes. Clefable might have an easier time setting up with Minimizethan Clefairy, but that's about it. Pretty sure Minimize isn't a great option in BSD.

So not sure what rank it should be, just that it should go down. The other two I don't know enough to say.

BTW, can we drop Bisharp now?

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Reviving the thread :D

Excadrill: B+ Rank to B Rank

This mon is complete garbage in my opinion. Sand Rush, while it doubles your speed, forces you to use Tyranitar (Hippowdon sucks) which stacks water and fighting weaknesses. Although Sand Top Cut US Nats twice Excadrill was only on one of the teams, with Aaron Zheng getting rid of because it's a weak pokemon, and it was the "least used Pokemon" on the team is was featured on. It was seen once at Japan Nats and didn't even Top Cut. Sand also Top Cut Worlds twice but non featured Excadrill.
Although it can be the fastest mon on the field easily, it gets walled by Landorus-T, is forced to use Drill Run a majority of time due to the need for Tyranitar and the common Aegislash, and falls to an super effective hit do to it's frail defenses and commonly a LO. Doesn't 2HKO Amoonguss or Cresselia, get PuPd on by Kang, and is used to use -1 Rock Slide vs. Landorus-T and Thundurus. Rain/Sand takes away it's speed boost and gets walled by 1/2 the meta. Japan Sand is dropping this for Lando-I so I believe it also needs a drop in rank.

Excadrill I have not gotten around to testing, personally. Largely because I haven't bred one yet, life's been busy stomping on my nuts.
Anyway, Nats was... 11 months ago, roughly? It was a powerful in mid-late 2015, to be sure, but most of Excadrill's drop in lethality is not a consequence of it being walled by Landog - who has been prominent since the meta was first opened. imo, most of this reason is the rise of viable, post-Worlds Rain cores that developed as a direct response to Japan Sand (and the dreaded Excadrill + Mence combo in general). Excadrill isn't too frail overall, imo; great typing leaves it hard to hit at times. Take CHALK: Cress walls it, sure, but does... what, exactly, in response to it spamming Rock Slide and flinch-fishing or Drilling its partner? Plus you KNOW TTar is there. Heatran is outsped (even without Sand) and decimated, also nothing against TTar and is walled by Mence. Amoonguss Spores it and then does... nothing, while Mence has a field day. Landog rapes it. Khan is often forced to take chunks, though it does win 1v1 by virtue of being Mega Kangaskhan. Very common 6th mon on CHALK (and any team with Landog really) is Thundy, which does literally nothing against Excadrill and is of almost dismissable threat against TTar as well. Excadrill also runs a nasty Scarf Mold breaker set, which can be used next to Mence with no Sand setup at all and rip common checks (Rotom-W for example). Fast Iron Head / RS Spam is no joke, winning games by sheer bullshit as I'm sure we've all stomached.
If we take Excadrill and rank it with its #1 partner in Mence (Yes, I realize TTar is the #1 partner in usage) they are an extremely difficult duo to handle without Landog (even then, Hydro Pump and DM should not be dismissed) and should be backed by landog hatred (Suicune, Milotic, Cresselia), which makes it rather potent outside of Rain matchups. It'll never be A ranked, as it's largely dependant on either TTar's weather dominance or Scarf; which are not dependable or are abusable in Scarf's case. Solid Fairy crusher with EQ + Aerialate Hyper Voice and high Speed is a machete to the gut though.
On it's lonesome, taken outside its common core / without megamence, yeah its not that great and Landog / Garchomp are generally better unless you need a Thundy AND Garde check all in one and refuse to use AV Landog.

So I guess what I'm saying is, Excadrill is the embodiment of Japan sand, and its viability hinges on either that, or Excadrill entirely on its own. Excadrill has not really changed; Japan Sand has been weakened by Rain's typical weather dominance.
Not opposed to dropping to B, I haven't used it yet but gods only know how many I have Heat Wave'd to death. It's typically been ranked with respect to Japan Sand; much like Ludicolo, who is ranked based on Rain (since its absolute fucking trash outside Rain).

Lando-I I have not heard or seen at all. What's it run, a Special set, Mixed Earth Power / EQ / Rock Slide, ?
That I am curious on.

Clefable: A Rank to A- Rank (Or Lower)

Why is this higher than Hydreigon? It's a worse Clefairy, without Friend Guard it's forced to run Unaware which is clearly an inferior strat. Clefairy on the other hand gets Friend Guard and Follow Me / Icy Wind which helps so much in setting up either Mega Kangaskhan or Azumarill. In the VGC 2015 Spring Regionals Usage Stats Clefairy was used three times compared to Clefable's zero. There's no way you can tell me an inferior evolution deserves to be higher than a mon that can get to +6 in one turn and sweep.

Hydreigon has to deal with being auto-destroyed by every Fairy in the game bar Klefki. Nearly every team has a Fairy type. It also gets T-Waved by Thundy, which it really should beat but doesn't, or gets Superpower'd by Landog, which it walls, outspeeds, and should beat, but doesn't. Derp speed combined with "EVERYTHING lives with 10 HP" syndrome if it lacks Specs/LO also gets it slapped around. Derp speed without Scarf gets it stepped on by Khan and friends. I love Hydra though, such a wonderful engine of "spam Dark Pulse till you drop since nothing resists it anymore".
Anyway, point of Clefable's ranking has always been to keep it even with Clefairy. Key differences:

+ Clefable has item slot open. Sitrus, Rocky Helmet, Flame Orb (absorbs T-Wave and Spore, makes a nice blanket troll to Thundy / Amoonguss / Sleep Powder Venusaur).
+ Clefable has enough Sp. Atk to actually kill something. Ice Beam smokes Landog / Thundy / Mence / Chomp fairly well.
+ Unaware helps against random cheeses like DD Mence, BD Azumarill, and PuP Khan.
+ Magic Guard lets you use LO and not give a single fuck, so you can actually use it for damage support.

- Clefairy is bulkier, per hit.
- Friend Guard on a not complete shit mon is great support; but only on Spread attacks or when you aren't spamming Follow Me / Protect.
- Clefairy... has no offense. At all. Dusclops level offense.
- Clefairy is slower for TR support.
- Doesn't eat an obnoxious-to-obtain Moon Stone, #1 reason to use.

They each have their little ups and downs, you basically pick "reasonable offense" or "Friend Guard" and use them interchangably. We always lumped them together since early 2015, not too much point moving but I'm not gonna start a one-man war if we get noms to move Clefable down / Clefairy up.

Entei: A- Rank to B+ Rank

I haven't seen Entei do anything. It didn't Top Cut US Nats, Japan Nats, or any of the European Nationals. Hibiki dropped it from his Nats team in favor of Volcorona since "Entei was too much of a sitting duck." Furthermore Entei was called "too inconsistent" in this (linked below) Nugget Bridge Article. It's outclassed by Heatran (as showed at Worlds) and favored by Volcorona.

since attaching links isn't working
US Nats: http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/
Japan Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/864-teams-from-the-vgc-15-japanese-national-championships/
European Nats: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/841-teams-from-the-vgc-15-european-national-championships/
Hibiki: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...c-regional-top-4-national-top-64-team-report/
Inconsistent: http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry...-and-7th-place-orlando-regionals-team-report/

I feel strongly about the second two noms, Excadrill might not get through but I do think it's not very good due to it's poor CHALK matchup, being forced to use Tyranitar, and poor defenses. Also, I wouldn't use anything below C (beside the megas in C-) but I don't think we should get rid of it but I do think we should get rid of D Rank since everything there is trash and it has no results. Just some thought :P

Entei is a bitch. Runs like Arcanine without Intimidate; which sounds bad at first but do realize that Milotic is neither rare nor dismissable in Doubles, and Special mons like Gardevoir and Mence really do not give a fuck.
It does need Flash Fire though...

It's fairly fast, Sacred Fire is effortless to spam (Do they have Heatran? If no: click Sacred Fire) and Stone Edge is savage on Mega Mence switchins, Zapdos, Charizard, and Thundy. Bulk is amazing, but tragically lacks recovery. BulkyCanine is amazing, been running it recently and does a lot. Offensive Arcanine is largely inferior to Entei, and offers itself as a distinct choice in physical Fire mons. Char-X is questionable and eats a Mega, Blaziken is frail, and Arcanine is a bit slower and relies on Flare Blitz to kill itself. Infernape does pretty shitty damage and is frail as hell; nice offensive support though. Entei is bulky like Arcanine, eats no Mega slot, and has a great STAB and WoW factor all in one slot with no recoil.

Heatran and Volc are different. Heatran is fairly slow, very bulky, and tanks Rock Slide spam much better, while offensively sporting a much better Heat Wave, and has Earth Power for coverage. Obnoxiously long list of resists too. Equally tragic in sporting great bulk with no recovery. Maimed by Fighting and Ground much harder though, Entei / Arcanine have no 4x weaknesses to pluck. Volcarona... is comparable to Char-Y, functionally. Shit for physical bulk, strong Special based spam and tanking, with QD, Fiery Dance, Rage Powder, and non-Mega as pluses, with worse typing (imo) and inferior stats / ability. Flame Body at least lets it make Khan partially regret OHKOing it. Entei isn't really comparable, but I'm not 100% sure how to explain it. The physical Fire crowd (bar Blaziken) has largely gone out of favor with Landog, but at the same time CB Arcanine has made quite some shine on high rated Japanese and NA teams and is fairly recent.

P.S. Bring Azumarill up please that thing is cash :]

Azumarill is awesome.
It has kicked much ass and given few fucks for months. That typing. Much coverage. So bulk. Too cute.
Swap Clefable and Azumarill rankings, y/y ?

tl;dr I don't have any problem with these nominations, I just prefer to refer to more recent BSD teams than Nats/Worlds because those are nearly a year old despite being the same ruleset. BSD is currently more colorful and varitable than VGC15, from everything I've seen. Entei I've seen a few people use rather well; Excadrill is honestly just the king of a nearly dead archetype (though ScarfDrill does exist and I do see it). Clefable and Clefairy are 98% identical and interchangable. Azumarill is amazeballs.

D-Rank is mostly there to show people some things *not* to use that new players may feel a tendency to use, that are severly outclassed at basically everything. And a leftover of the VGC15 rankings. lol.
Musharna and Rotom-C (I think? The lawn mower...) do, imo, have a reason to exist on the rankings; Mowtom is pretty good in some spots, got swept by one yesterday in fact. Also used it a bit myself; amazing anti-Rain mon, WoW/Twave on a Grass mon is fun, and it's good at the "fuck you Thundurus" job. Goes good on teams that need Water plugged badly, not too bad. Mushy is just for "TR setter that has damage output (unlike Cress...), fun supports, and Telepathy for Rhyperior HH Surf / EQ.
Banette, Malamar, Mega Steelix, and Noivern and such are basically total shit though yes. Noivern has been brought up a few times, but ever since ORAS tutors there has been basically no reason to use Noivern when Crobat does everything better. All it has is Telepathy, but its immune to EQ anyway...

So ok guys, the deliberations:

Excadrill (or Japan Sand in general), Entei, Clefable/Clefairy split. Liepard has been running around on a few higher ranked JP teams (Prankster Fake Tears + Mence HV), currently C- (the very fringe of viability). Has anyone used it or seen it outside of a dedicated PerishTrap team? Azumarill up to A, its amazeballs. Anyone know anything about Lando-I on Sand teams?
I'm simply a lunatic running on 3 hours sleep and caffeine. And no food. Thus I beg pardon for any and all outrageous or inexplicable stupidity above this line.

 

[Mishimono]

I honestly think Entei is alright in A- because it is one of the only good physical fire-types and being able to spread burns is really good. I like running Jolly Entei because you can get a Scared Fire burn onto things like Kangaskhan and non-scarf Landorus-T. Stone Edge is also great coverage on flying-types like Thundurus, Charizard. Snarl is also something I think is pretty cool on Entei which can help with special attackers like Heatran.

 

[Redvader8]

I have been playing a ton of Japan sand within the past few weeks, so I will talk about excadrill since I have experience with it. The times I love using him is when I dont see lando-t. I know it sounds like a no brainer, but against teams that lack lando-t, excadrill (especially with a sash on it) just is so dominate that I even use it against lando-t at times when I feel it can do so much work against the rest of the team. Its speed combined with fantastic offensive power makes him a threat to so many potent mons like M-Gardevoir, M-Chary, even Mega Mence without access to a fire attack. The times where it doesnt put in work is against Rain, Lando-T, and Mega Kang, but then again who doesnt have trouble with Kang? I feel this deserves a B+ rating due to the fact that if you dont have one of those three, you WILL have a tough time against it. Not many teams can handle 2 fast rock slides when paired with Scarf Tar, and even the teams that do have to roll the dice to see if they get flinched or not. As a hyper offensive pokemon, it is one of the best non mega pokemon available outside of azumarill. For being one of the best at its job, but being checkable should be B+ worthy

EDIT: sorry for spam, website crashed as i was sending