BH Balanced Hackmons

[Eelstartega]

OK so DLC's out and we have most of the information pertaining to BH, so i'll just summarize it here (using this doc as a reference)
"New Abilities"
Mind's Eye - Accuracy can't be lowered, Ignores Evasion changes on the target, Can hit Ghosts with Normal and Fighting moves.

Toxic Chain - May badly poison the target when its hit with a move.

Embody Aspect - Boosts Spe/SpD/Atk/Def by 1 stage depending on which variant of Embody Aspect is used (its the same case as As One, where two different abilities have the same name).

I have to agree with you in most of your takes. There's one I do not though and is the utility of on-demand speed without restrictions of Embody Aspect (Teal). There's tons of pokémon who wish to have that extra speed bump, most notably powerful special wallbreakers and choice users like Kyurem-White, Eternatus, Mewtwo-Mega-X or Kartana.
IDK, I'm slightly worried that now Modest Lunala can outspeed +Speed Deoxys-Attack, because that's the thing, most pokémon are sitting on the base 90-99 speed tier and the fastest pokémon in the tier is Pheromosa at 151, which means this traslates to "your pokémon always act first if it has more than 85 speed" and we all know how important speed is in pokémon. What's more, any pokémon on the base 90 can outspeed Zamacenta and Miraidon without even investing the nature in speed, and there's just so mane pokémon who are held back by their middling speed and prediction reliance.
On the plus side, this might allow the meta to be less stall-oriented because pokémon with this hability have to invest into power, so it might be a good thing for the meta as a whole. Still, is good but not OP considering speed boost exists, but speed boost is hindered by delay, unlike this.

The power boost is banworthy and everyone knows it considering gorilla tactics got banned for less. To keep it cartridge accurate, you should keep it banned up until you discover if the hability is available without tera.

Returning moves
Doom Desire
Tail Glow
Take Heart (Calm Mind + Refresh)
Dark Void
Seed Flare
Toxic Thread
Clangorous Soul
Clanging Scales

Changed moves -
Glide got fucking nerfed again to 55 BP lmao

Since you have not given an opinion about the returning moves but Grassy Glide, I'll do my best to explain those.

Doom Desire : I doubt an steel type future sight will see play considering how bad is steel offensively. Maybe Dialga-O can use it?
Tail Glow : This move is broken, specially with Teal to get a +3 special attack alongside the +1 in speed. Just ban this because we know it's too much for the tier.
Take Heart : Technically it's new move, and it's amazing. There's so many setup sweepers who get ruined by poison constantly, and this move is precisely that for special attackers. Is it broken? I dunno. On one hand it negates the counterplay to setup sweepers which is putting them in a timer due to chip damage and/or paralysis. On the other hand, I don't think people want to lose counterplay to the obnoxious mortal spin.
Dark void : We know it's a bad joke both Darkrai and Dark void... Why is Darkrai still banned in OU? Is not like fast and strong attackers are too much for OU as seen by Dragapult. Move banned by technicallity, not due to power level.
Seed Flare : Shaymin-Sky is a joke in this format considering it's not even able to outspeed Mewtwo or Necrozma-Ultra. Meanwhile Seed Flare was good in the past but nowadays I feel people who wants grass coverage will just go for Magic Guard Chloroblast, as well as Lumina crash for the special defense drop.
Toxic thread : Why would I play this over mortal/rapid spin, Toxic, Glare, Salt cure, Thunder cage or toxic spikes? Seriously, this move just lacks a niche.
Clangorous Soul : It's no retreat but you lose life instead of getting trapped. Might be worth using on offensive Ghost-Arceus. In general it looks quite the powerful tool with simple, but needs to be used alongside an unaware pokémon to avoid Chansey issues, unless you're using the aforementioned Arceus-Ghost.
Clangling Scales : Finally, a better move than Dynamax cannon for special dragons. Nothing banworthy, just a slight upgrade from dynamax cannon/Spacial Rend for teams without great Hazard control.

New moves -
Blood Moon - Special Normal Gigaton with 140 BP.

Ivy Cudgel - Grass, 80 BP, boosted Crit Rate. Raging Bull effect for Ogerpon formes.

Matcha Gotcha - Grass, 80 BP, 90 Accuracy, 50% Drain, ??% (likely 30%, will edit in when known) Burn.

"Misc Stuff"
Fairy Feather - Fairy-type equivalent of Mystic Water / Soft Sand.

Blood Moon : In most cases this would be an autoinclude move for pokémon of X-typing. In the case of normal type it's a worse boomburst.

Ivy Cudgel : It's a worse flower trick/Power whip. Could have seen play before gen 9 but it's just too late. It's 100 BP vanilla though, not 80 with high crit rate.

Matcha Gotcha : The burn rate seems to be 20%, not 30%. If it was 30% I could see it as a move used by regenvest Kyogre and defensive Miraidon to deal with ground types while threatening a burn on dangerous sweepers, but 20% is just too unreliable.
Fairy feather

: First of all, I'm glad wikidex is not bonded to regular wiki and therefore makes it easy to put official images in here. Second, finally there's a fairy boosting item not bonded to Arceus, which is great for VGC... That being said it's irrelevant in Balanced hackmons and even in VGC the DLC stuff is illegal for now, but it looks pretty.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

BH SUSPECT #3: THE ENTIRE FUCKING HP STAT

i love it when people just look for the words on the banlist and make up their own story on how they got there (maybe that's something i can fix).

The tiering history is great, but it would be helpful if the links to the ban posts are also in the "Clauses and Ban List" section.

 

[tzaur]

Doom Desire : I doubt an steel type future sight will see play considering how bad is steel offensively.

It's generally used with Regen-Vest Dialga(-O) and some Magearna variants if people still even use that mon. Could see it being used on something like Steelceus or even Celesteela. The latter generally used it with Triage, though which of course won't be a thing unless Yveltal returns. Does a surprisingly decent amount of damage coming from Dialga's base 150 SpA. Can be scary in the late game and/or when paired with a breaker that threatens the Doom Desire sponge. Could possibly see Steely Spirit Kartana + Doom Desire Regen-Vest Dialga duos making a return.

Clangorous Soul : It's no retreat but you lose life instead of getting trapped. Might be worth using on offensive Ghost-Arceus. In general it looks quite the powerful tool with simple but needs to be used alongside an unaware pokémon to avoid Chansey issues, unless you're using the aforementioned Arceus-Ghost.

I think Ghostceus will continue to just use SNR if it wants to go that route. Doesn't get trapped, doesn't lose HP, and setting it up a single time generally suffices. Still don't really see it being a very good move and a noob trap at best just like it was prior gen despite the lack of setup countermeasures this gen compared to last gen.

Dark void : We know it's a bad joke both Darkrai and Dark void... Why is Darkrai still banned in OU? Is not like fast and strong attackers are too much for OU as seen by Dragapult. Banned by technicallity, not due to power level.

Don't want to get off-topic here, but it's still 100% banned due to power level. Nasty Plot + 3A (Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast) still cracks the tier open. Not to mention Tera and moves like Taunt, Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, etc. at its disposal. Obviously ass here in BH as is Dark Void (not that it matters anyway since it would be banned under the Sleep Moves Clause).

No opinion on Embody Aspect (Teal) and agree with the rest. Take Heart is an interesting one. Seems like a decent mid-ground between Calm Mind and the banned Quiver Dance. Anything that foils Mortal Spin gets a warm welcome from me. I think FC Arceus variants and the like would appreciate this move; it can maybe afford to drop Cloak for boots or Leftovers. Tail Glow I definitely see getting banned this time around at least until DLC-2 drops and Topsy-Turvy returns. In which case I wouldn't be against reintroducing Poison Heal with that back around and a lot of other things that made it busted such as Tera, Quiver Dance, Substitute, Slaking/Regigigas all banned just to see if it would still be a huge issue. Would also be a somewhat of a nerf to Mortal Spin. But I dunno. Maybe a wild suggestion.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

first quickban of the dlc woo

Embody Aspect (Hearthflame) is Quickbanned from BH!​

//////////////	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	TTTech	Chessking345
Embody Aspect (Hearthflame)	Ban	Ban	Ban	Abstain

This ban is pretty self-explanatory; it's just Gen 8 Intrepid Sword. The last buff physical attackers need is just a flat damage increase, especially into Imposter users (meaning usage of scarier physical breakers that struggle into Imposter, like MMX, becomes a lot easier), creating situations where stuff like Kartana and Mega Garchomp just straight up doesn't get walled. Given the resist-heavy nature of Improofing currently, as well as the omnipresence of Strength Sap, Improofing +2 Imposter users is realistically not significant enough of a drawback to keep this ability stable.

Tail Glow is very likely the next thing that gets voted on, but it's not been banned before, so we want to give it a tad of breathing room (although it looks like there isn't a ton to give). Don't personally expect this one to last much longer.

Tagging Kris to implement.

OK so as it turns out embody aspect doesn't work on anything that isn't terastallized ogerpon, so this'll be shadowbanned anyway as it's only usable on something inaccessible due to tera ban.

also chill with the one liners that add nothing to the conversation

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Tail Glow is stupid
​

This probably isn't a surprise to anyone that's played more than two games, but this move needs to go ASAP. Its potency for hitting completely daft ranges is something that needs to be talked about.

From what i've seen, there seems to be two main Tail Glow modes: Simple (get to +6 instantly and then just kill stuff) and bulky (usually stuff like Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost; increase the amount of stuff you can set up on and become unstoppable that way. These are both equally dumb, especially given Tail Glow's +3 means a ridiculous amount of stuff can run it, and that leaves prepping for it basically impossible. Here's some of the main ones i've been seeing:


Eternatus @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Dragon Energy
- Sludge Wave
- Strength Sap

+6 252 SpA Draco Plate Eternatus Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 327-384 (80.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

oh yeah it also has poison STAB to bomb through scales fairyceus, which can otherwise do a serviceable job checking other stuff with glare + haze. stuff like this being legal is also ridiculous since dragon energy is 7hp off of ohkoing +spd chansey and improofing it is actually impossible without zacian-c (even scales chansey risks a 2HKO from imp after a tad more chip than rocks).


Miraidon @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Electro Drift
- Strength Sap

benefits from OHKOing scales pogre, paralysis immunity, and OHKOing imposter while not being ohkoed itself. scales fairyceus becomes annoying for any attackers that aren't eternatus, but electro drift always 2hkoes and moonblast peaks at 62%, meaning if they want to survive tg + edrift spam they have to enter the haze + recover cycle and can never safely moonblast.


Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Strength Sap

classic. you always want +spe here for kartana but otherwise this is just an upgraded nplot ghostceus from earlier in the gen and can 2hko AV pogre after rocks. this benefits from there being very little that can actually OHKO it, meaning death by raw damage is rarely a concern and the most you usually have to eat is pogre mortal.

This also isn't to say that these are the only users - far from it, as realistically anything moderately bulky can run either of these and just grab KOes because you expected them to be something else. I've seen Palkia-O, Arceus-Normal, and even MMX using it to great success.

tl;dr ban tail glow

 

[Yoko]

Tail Glow is stupid
​

This probably isn't a surprise to anyone that's played more than two games, but this move needs to go ASAP. Its potency for hitting completely daft ranges is something that needs to be talked about.

From what i've seen, there seems to be two main Tail Glow modes: Simple (get to +6 instantly and then just kill stuff) and bulky (usually stuff like Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost; increase the amount of stuff you can set up on and become unstoppable that way. These are both equally dumb, especially given Tail Glow's +3 means a ridiculous amount of stuff can run it, and that leaves prepping for it basically impossible. Here's some of the main ones i've been seeing:


Eternatus @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Dragon Energy
- Sludge Wave
- Strength Sap

+6 252 SpA Draco Plate Eternatus Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 327-384 (80.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

oh yeah it also has poison STAB to bomb through scales fairyceus, which can otherwise do a serviceable job checking other stuff with glare + haze. stuff like this being legal is also ridiculous since dragon energy is 7hp off of ohkoing +spd chansey and improofing it is actually impossible without zacian-c (even scales chansey risks a 2HKO from imp after a tad more chip than rocks).


Miraidon @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Electro Drift
- Strength Sap

benefits from OHKOing scales pogre, paralysis immunity, and OHKOing imposter while not being ohkoed itself. scales fairyceus becomes annoying for any attackers that aren't eternatus, but electro drift always 2hkoes and moonblast peaks at 62%, meaning if they want to survive tg + edrift spam they have to enter the haze + recover cycle and can never safely moonblast.


Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Strength Sap

classic. you always want +spe here for kartana but otherwise this is just an upgraded nplot ghostceus from earlier in the gen and can 2hko AV pogre after rocks. this benefits from there being very little that can actually OHKO it, meaning death by raw damage is rarely a concern and the most you usually have to eat is pogre mortal.

This also isn't to say that these are the only users - far from it, as realistically anything moderately bulky can run either of these and just grab KOes because you expected them to be something else. I've seen Palkia-O, Arceus-Normal, and even MMX using it to great success.

tl;dr ban tail glow

well im bored sooo gonna give my thoughts on this

as someone who got sweeped by that tail glow eternatus set (damn u tea ur too good!!)

i also do think tail glow needs to go even without simple it can be pretty hard to counter on stuff like palkia-o which just setup once and can pretty much sweep ur entire team, with simple stuff like as tea stated ghostceus just becomes over the top being able to setup once and sweep everything (unless ur slower) and not even imp being able to stop u is absurd

tldr: ban

 

[Eelstartega]

OK so as it turns out embody aspect doesn't work on anything that isn't terastallized ogerpon, so this'll be shadowbanned anyway as it's only usable on something inaccessible due to tera ban.

also chill with the one liners that add nothing to the conversation

1°: I'm sorry. I still confused with the ruling of this site. Glad you're understanding enough to only make minor calls for my awkward interactions on social media.
2°: I'm glad Teal is banned... although that means I have to redo lots of my teams who were built upon teal boosting speed so I could go with boosting moves no problem.

Also, because you want me to not make one-liners, here it was the team that got ruined due to the new discovery about habilities (and the obvious Tail glow ban), because I'm on a tournament therefore it would be stupid to post the teams I will actually use: https://pokepast.es/4f5b4d112699c5bf

Isekai cliche (Arceus-Ghost)
@ Spooky Plate | Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Strength Sap
- Judgment
- No Retreat
- Triple Arrows

Originally it was Clangerous soul but then I discovered ghost types can switch from no retreat. You know the set by now, it's your standard offensive Ghost arceus who has +Speed nature to outspeed Kartana, Metagross-Mega and Latios/as-Mega and has roughly perfect coverage in ghost + fighting, as well as a +2 speed of my own Palkia if things go wrong which they can more often than you think.

Con este dedito (Chansey) (F)
@ Eviolite | Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature | IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Teleport
- Heal Bell
- Stone Axe

Wish I could show you the origin of the Nickname but It involves the middle finger and violates the rules of "Speak on english" this forum has. We all know her role, is a imposter who loves to punish setup sweepers and is apparently the best lead in the game. The moves rarely matter but when they do I decided to make her a cleric + wishport with some minor utility from rocks.

Look at my horse (Dialga-Origin)
@ Covert Cloak | Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature IVs: 0 Atk/ 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Doom Desire
- Roost
- Parting Shot

Here's the first of the new tools. Doom Desire is a steel type future sight, which has great synergy with the defensive Dialga-Origin and i feel is better than using revelation dance or Make it rain considering this pokémon isn't vulnerable to normalize due to parting shot. Ice scales because this thing will never be able to wall Mewtwo's fighting STABs, knock off to make pokémon vulnerable to moves and roost because strenght sap isn't good on special walls, just everything else.

Bird-up! (Ho-Oh)
@ Life Orb | Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Strength Sap

Nothing weird here, is your run-of-the-mill offensive Ho-oh. Needed a ground immunity who wasn't vulnerable to M-Diancie and this is without a doubt the bird for the job. Mortal spin as 4th moveslot because no normal steel type would want to change into life orb STAB Flare Blitz.

My Horse's Amazing (Palkia-Origin)
@ Lustrous Globe / Covert Cloak
Ability: Embody Aspect (Teal)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Armor Cannon
- Tail Glow
- Clanging Scales

Has to be "Horse's" instead of "Horse is" due to character limit. This is the pokémon who used the most amount of new tools. Teal was amazing to patch up the main problem of this pokémon of being outsped by common offensive threats like Mewtwo, Pheromosa or Miraidon. Of item I would say it would be better to use covert cloak, because between modest nature and tail glow you don't need more power, but water is quite weak to salt cure. Clanging scales is just an upgraded spammable STAB for most offensive dragons.

Leg Day (Swampert-Mega) (M)
@ Covert Cloak | Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature | IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Axe

Because someone has to do the dirty job. The pokémon's role is mostly to stop Miraidon, put rocks and be a good physical wall who can pivot, unlike Kyogre-Primal who sucks on the physical defense, or Groudon who has worse defensive typing in pure ground, who can make it less reliable against Ho-Oh. I just really needed that physically defensive water type who could check electrics and wasn't awful on the special side in a pinch.

 

[BrainDamageHaver]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1944144045



Interesting interaction seems to happen between Impostor users and Ogerpon if Ogerpon is holding one of it's masks as an item. After you impostor Ogerpon and then switch the Imposter user out, it can tera once it switches back in even if the next mon you impostor is not Ogerpon. See turn 23 of above replay to watch Blissey perform tera.



(also shoutout Part for helping me figure out how this works)

 

[okgoogle4]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1944144045



Interesting interaction seems to happen between Impostor users and Ogerpon if Ogerpon is holding one of it's masks as an item. After you impostor Ogerpon and then switch the Imposter user out, it can tera once it switches back in even if the next mon you impostor is not Ogerpon. See turn 23 of above replay to watch Blissey perform tera.



(also shoutout Part for helping me figure out how this works)

Wait a sec? from when is tera usable in bh.

(also since no one liners)

https://pokepast.es/589c15672855bae6

Giratina @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Sticky Web
This is umm a terrain and web setter and it works pretty good. also somewhat improofs kartana.

Sceptile (Sceptile-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Terrain Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Parting Shot
This thing is just broken
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Sceptile-Mega Terrain Pulse (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Fairy in Grassy Terrain: 198-233 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
u just cant safely switch with this around (without ice scales arceus gets ohko)

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flower Trick
- U-turn
- Trick
- V-create
All i ever press is Flower trick (and sometimes V-Create) but this thing does insane damage (once you get webs up its pretty much game over)

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Metal Burst
- Wish
- Protect
- Haze
Just a random imposter thingy. (Improofs Sceptile)

Arceus (Arceus-Poison) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Poison Fang
- Cosmic Power
- Strength Sap

Kartana improof and a semi-stall thingy

Ting-Lu @ Eject Button
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 0 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stone Axe
- Parting Shot
- Mortal Spin
- Recover
Kinda like my pivot into one of my sweepers.

So yeah a little grass terrain team I found intresting to use.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok this ban hopefully won't be invalidated by game mechanics lol

Tail Glow is banned from BH!​

////////////////	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	TTTech	Chessking345
Tail Glow	Ban	Ban	Ban	Abstain

This move is just... egregiously broken. I made a post earlier about some of the calcs that this allows for, but the complete inability to wall basically all SimpleGlow users without complete immunity, as well as the fact that anything with a half-decent Special Attack stat and STAB typing can run it, create situations where it's basically impossible to stop something from boosting and just claiming KO after KO unless you specifically load into the one you're also running (so you'll by default have an Imposter-proof for it). This is in addition to the standard BH stuff in that everything is notably bulky thanks to full EVs, and the majority of Tail Glow users are also on the faster end, meaning you can't just use something like a Choice Bander to pick them off. Other bulkier options like Arceus-Ghost can also pack defensive abilities that make boost prevention even harder.

Tagging Kris to implement.

 

[Notagamer]

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flower Trick
- U-turn
- Trick
- V-create
All i ever press is Flower trick (and sometimes V-Create) but this thing does insane damage (once you get webs up its pretty much game over)

Funniest set of the whole thread.
(Also to not one liner)
https://pokepast.es/56ac15561c46f65a

Team star. I wanted to build around something with the dlc.

Offensive partner to not get hard walled by furscales. Might change it later.

Regenvest classic and one out of 3 mortal spin mons.

My improof for mega sceptile and of course imp. Move set is prob mid but not that concerning.

Improofs Mmx and absorbs knock off.

Mortal spin 3/3 woooo also semi checks mglo mmx.

(also here’s another team I built after deo a got freed https://pokepast.es/8e346a09eb8aa5dd)

 

[CoolManatee]

Hi guys, today I found in ladder this celesteela set, keep in mind it was in the 1100's (I just started, I'm not that bad) and I wanted to know how viable/unviable it is

Celesteela @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Baneful Bunker
- Endeavor
- Knock Off

I lost to it because I didn't have any multi-hit move or any other way to deal passive damage to it.
Is it actually any good or am I just bad?

 

[Codename C.A.T]

Hi guys, today I found in ladder this celesteela set, keep in mind it was in the 1100's (I just started, I'm not that bad) and I wanted to know how viable/unviable it is

Celesteela @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Baneful Bunker
- Endeavor
- Knock Off

I lost to it because I didn't have any multi-hit move or any other way to deal passive damage to it.
Is it actually any good or am I just bad?

this set is pretty bad in all honesty, salt cure/mg completely invalidates its existence and it can never switch into the game because its not sitrus sturdy...but if it wasnt boots you just click stone axe once and beat it lmao. regenvest also just demolishes it because it always heals off the damage. basically its not good just like most fear sets in most tiers

 

[CoolManatee]

this set is pretty bad in all honesty, salt cure/mg completely invalidates its existence and it can never switch into the game because its not sitrus sturdy...but if it wasnt boots you just click stone axe once and beat it lmao. regenvest also just demolishes it because it always heals off the damage. basically its not good just like most fear sets in most tiers

Oh I didn't think about Salt Cure, thank you!

 

[Geneku2]

Toxic Chain is the only interesting addition to the meta. Overall, pretty sad update BH meta. It really feels like GameFreak is adding more gimmiky Pokemon (see previous post) to reduce the BST power creep.

Chain is unlikely to get banned, unless it procs on every hit which would be fun AF. Imagine Pop Bomb having a 97% toxic chance, though I haven't tested.

 

[okgoogle4]

Toxic Chain is the only interesting addition to the meta. Overall, pretty sad update BH meta. It really feels like GameFreak is adding more gimmiky Pokemon (see previous post) to reduce the BST power creep.

Chain is unlikely to get banned, unless it procs on every hit which would be fun AF. Imagine Pop Bomb having a 97% toxic chance, though I haven't tested.

ive tested it, multi hit moves do in-fact give you multiple chances of activating toxic chain,however since im not an expert on these things i have no idea of the exact percentage of it badly poisoning

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Big post on Mortal Spin being unhealthy ​

This has been a very big sticking point but i've not really had a chance to sit down and make a big post on it until now. This post'll basically go over what Mortal does to the metagame, the pro-ban arguments, and the anti-ban arguments.

What Mortal Spin does
Aside from what it physically does (removes hazards and influcts poison), Mortal's main effect on the meta is essentially monopolizing hazard removal, allowing defensive mons to make substantial amounts of progress, and significantly encouraging the omnipresence of Covert Cloak. Mortal's dominance over removal can be both tied to both itself being good (good move in general + few meta-revelant Steels to block it) and that the other removal forms are pretty bad (-ateSpin is really not doing too hot, Tidy Up suffers from a small pool of "viable" users, and Defog is Defog), meaning in most teams it's completely fine to just go with multiple Mortal users and call it a day. Mortal also allows otherwise-defensive Pokemon, most prominently RegenVest users, to make substantial progress against the enemy team well beyond any other tool (besides the banned Ceaseless Edge) they've ever had. Cloak being everywhere is almost exclusively due to Mortal's presence, as being poisoned severely limits a defensive Pokemon's options and typically forces them to enter extremely linear (and often exploitable) Strength Sap strings.

Pro-Ban Arguments

1. Defensive Pokemon make too much progress with it. This is pretty self-explanatory but Mortal arguably gives too much leverage to Regenerator and non-boosting FurScales to make progress against the opponent, which manifests as heavily-defensive structures using Mortal + Knock a ton to force progress from a safe, uninteractive position that's often stale for both parties involved.​
2. Cloak spam isn't healthy. Mortal creates a de-facto "best item" on pretty much every defensive option except for Yveltal and Ho-Oh in order to cope with it. I don't personally think that this is a healty aspect of the meta, as it severely limits building creativity and forces teams into linear, predictable defensive cores. Cloak being essentially mandatory also has a side effect of buffing most offensive Pokemon due to the substantial opportunity cost of Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots essentially making them void choices, contributing both to the predict-right-or-die nature of threats like Kartana and stifling the amount of offensive threats you're able to run due to Improofing constraints.​
3. Cloak is pretty much the only good option to defend against it. Magic Guarders, which enjoy being poisoned as they take no damage and can't be paralyzed, are very uncommon; the only relevant ones with a tangible amount of bulk to actually flex are Mega Mewtwo X and Ho-Oh, both of which hate potentially losing Life Orb from trying to absorb a RegenVest's Mortal and Ho-Oh being on the fringe of viability. Outside of this, basically nothing wants to actively take Mortal Spin, as even something like RegenVest Primal Kyogre will be at a net loss of HP if it switches in with Stealth Rock up and clicks one non-pivot move. This basically leaves Cloak and Take Heart as the only reasonable options to defend against it, and with Take Heart realistically only working on bulky boosting Arceus formes (and maybe Miraidon), Cloak still holds absolute dominance here. There also aren't a ton of Poison- and Steel-types on offer with which to absorb it (only about 3 good ones), with Arceus-Poison as the best option since it usually doesn't care about Knock either.​

Anti-Ban Arguments

1. It's necessary as a hazard removal tool. This can be pretty much pinned down to Stone Axe being similarly omnipresent. With the other removal options being pretty meh choices, this might seem like the only good option. However, this unironically a product of Mortal's own doing, as the dominance it gives to Cloak accidentally buffs Stone Axe by essentially removing Boots from the equation in most cases. We could also just get rid of Stone Axe if Mortal were to go.
2. Cloak beats it. This is in the most literal, devoid-of-context sense, true. Although, it's also a pretty shallow argument when you consider that Knock Off exists and is usually spammed by teams using Mortal for progress (and no, "Just don't get knocked" does not count as reliable counterplay) and that there are numerous meta options that will gladly take advantage of essentially not having to play against something with an item slot.

You can probably tell that i'm pretty heavily pro-ban given the way i've written this, but I just wanted to put my stance out there. I think that a Mortal Spin ban (and likely a subsequent Axe ban; in my mind the meta would probably shift from Cloak spam to cope with Mortal to Boots spam to cope with permarocks, which isn't really better) is pretty much the best way forward, and i've seen quite a few other people sharing my viewpoint, though I'd want to get the view of this thread before saying anything firm in terms of action.

Toxic Chain is the only interesting addition to the meta. Overall, pretty sad update BH meta. It really feels like GameFreak is adding more gimmiky Pokemon (see previous post) to reduce the BST power creep.

Chain is unlikely to get banned, unless it procs on every hit which would be fun AF. Imagine Pop Bomb having a 97% toxic chance, though I haven't tested.

Bit of maths: assuming Toxic Chain is a 30% proc rate and you have 100% accurate Population Bomb, the easiest way to work out the poison chance is to just do 100% - (chance to not get poisoned), which ends up as 100% - (70% ^ 10) = 100% - 2.824...% = about 97.175% poison chance.

If you go with Wide Lens for 99% Pop Bomb accuracy, the chance of any one hit poisoning is essentially 30% * 99% = 29.7%, so the same process gives about 97.051% poison chance.

 

[cityscapes]

Hi guys, today I found in ladder this celesteela set, keep in mind it was in the 1100's (I just started, I'm not that bad) and I wanted to know how viable/unviable it is

Celesteela @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Baneful Bunker
- Endeavor
- Knock Off

I lost to it because I didn't have any multi-hit move or any other way to deal passive damage to it.
Is it actually any good or am I just bad?

as the resident fear """expert""" around here i have to say it's really not that bad and definitely warrants some experimentation. first of all i think shell bell is much much better than boots cause it allows you to clean much more easily without relying on leech seed's sketchy accuracy, and also does cool shit like beating thunder cage if you leech seed them on the switch. also corrosive gas is better than knock off because you remove rocky helmet without getting hurt by said helmet, though rocky helmet is in general pretty rare right now (a good sign for the set) so another last move can be considered. also always run minimum hp so there's less risk of not getting back to full from shell bell endeavor into weakened mons. my standard set is leech/endeavor/ice shard/corrosive gas, i don't think bunker is threatening enough lategame which is when fear is strongest. (edit: it's okay into shit like cb moldy mmx i guess. idk)

as for mons, steela is fine with the clear ideas of mortal immune + spike immune, but there are some others worth trying. last gen the main one i used was togekiss to imposter-proof a simple np dragon/ground attack etern (of course you can use chomper here if you want), that was pretty terrible pre full dex cause of enamorus but its probably better right now. besides that you have some ideas of ghost-immune mons like grafaiai, pidgeot, and hisuian zoroark, allowing you to use astral on your ghost guys if you want. even some shit like simple no retreat astral stored power gambit lunala with alolan raticate could be funny.

of course the big issue all of these (save for grafaiai and other steel/poisons) have is with mortal spin especially on regenvests who can get out without being punished. regenvests in general are a big reason i almost always run imposter on fear teams (though the scouting is the primary idea). if you have a big special attacker you can get away with just clicking corrosive gas on them on the switch to remove the vest and break through, though i don't know if i'd rely on that because people have been using some fucked up regenvest + ice scales cores that don't make any sense.

besides that, the fourth moveslot should maybe be better leveraged to do work vs regenvests. one funny option is will-o-wisp, taking away any ideas of regenvest steelix switching in on full hp endeavor, being out of range of ice shard, and threatening uturn/mortal while you're forced to risk leech miss. there's also crazy shit like coil (!!!) to always hit your leech seeds, spikes for obvious reasons, heal bell, glare for a little bit of trolling, even trick room. stuff like that. have fun with it

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Mortal Spin… Salt Cure… Stone Axe… U-turn… Knock Off…

I woke up in a cold sweat, those words chilling my very bones. My fingers shook as a bitter chill ran down my spine. “It’s coming…” my voice shook as a dreadful thought appeared within my mind. The nightmare from ages long past. That accursed archetype, buried and forgotten. As many turns as there are stars in the sky. A battle with no victor. A relentless war with endless victims. An ancient god spoken of only in legends… Big Stall.

Big Stall tells you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. Big Stall lies and it becomes truth. Big Stall controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. Big Stall is Hyper Offense. Hyper Offense is Big Stall. There will be no emotions except for fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. There will be no loyalty, except towards Big Stall. There will be no love, except the love of Big Stall. Big Stall is watching you. At the apex of the pyramid, above all things is Big Stall. Big Stall is infallible and all-powerful. Every success, Every achievement, every victory, every scientific discovery, all knowledge, all wisdom, all happiness, all virtue, coalesce into Big Stall. You must love Big Stall. It is not enough to obey him. You must love him. What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself; who gives arguments a fair hearing and simply persists in his lunacy? Don’t you see that the whole aim of Big Stall is to narrow the range of thought? In the end Big Stall shall make joy literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always—do not forget this— always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine Big Stall stamping on a human face—forever. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking into the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.”

War is Big Stall. Freedom is Big Stall. Ignorance is Big Stall. Big Stall is. Big Stall was. Big Stall will be.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Bell
- Block
- Tidy Up
- U-turn

Audino-Mega @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker
- Haze
- Salt Cure

Registeel @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Giratina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stone Axe
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Lava Plume

Celesteela @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mortal Spin
- Stone Axe

Arceus-Poison @ Earth Plate
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Strength Sap
- Judgment
- Toxic Spikes

https://pokepast.es/ba518527b93ffc1a
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1946093179-gr7stxj3d1q9x5yrntogd8q2g9lunz9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1946617184-05rwk0b816fm0d0zfcshv597sh1ve6zpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1946067054-85l8jhuemc5a3srgoppfh019uejyr2mpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1949613965-k41du1dzopw57xesx66bbk3bve6bgjmpw

 

[okgoogle4]

Mortal Spin… Salt Cure… Stone Axe… U-turn… Knock Off…

I woke up in a cold sweat, those words chilling my very bones. My fingers shook as a bitter chill ran down my spine. “It’s coming…” my voice shook as a dreadful thought appeared within my mind. The nightmare from ages long past. That accursed archetype, buried and forgotten. As many turns as there are stars in the sky. A battle with no victor. A relentless war with endless victims. An ancient god spoken of only in legends… Big Stall.

Big Stall tells you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. Big Stall lies and it becomes truth. Big Stall controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. Big Stall is Hyper Offense. Hyper Offense is Big Stall. There will be no emotions except for fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. There will be no loyalty, except towards Big Stall. There will be no love, except the love of Big Stall. Big Stall is watching you. At the apex of the pyramid, above all things is Big Stall. Big Stall is infallible and all-powerful. Every success, Every achievement, every victory, every scientific discovery, all knowledge, all wisdom, all happiness, all virtue, coalesce into Big Stall. You must love Big Stall. It is not enough to obey him. You must love him. What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself; who gives arguments a fair hearing and simply persists in his lunacy? Don’t you see that the whole aim of Big Stall is to narrow the range of thought? In the end Big Stall shall make joy literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always—do not forget this— always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine Big Stall stamping on a human face—forever. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking into the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.”

War is Big Stall. Freedom is Big Stall. Ignorance is Big Stall. Big Stall is. Big Stall was. Big Stall will be.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Bell
- Block
- Tidy Up
- U-turn

Audino-Mega @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker
- Haze
- Salt Cure

Registeel @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Giratina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stone Axe
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Lava Plume

Lugia @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mortal Spin
- Stone Axe

Arceus-Poison @ Earth Plate
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Strength Sap
- Judgment
- Toxic Spikes

https://pokepast.es/126404b7cf38b230

Funny Ass Post. Made My Day.


Also Matcha Gotcha seemingly doesn't work with triage either.First Bitter Blade,now this it looks like gamefreak forgot about triage hopefully sooner or later gf starts making these work with triage. (Or is it just that it hasn't been implemented on PS?)

edit: it doesn't have the heal flag, same as bitter blade, so it won't work with triage

 

[Eelstartega]

Big post on Mortal Spin being unhealthy ​

This has been a very big sticking point but i've not really had a chance to sit down and make a big post on it until now. This post'll basically go over what Mortal does to the metagame, the pro-ban arguments, and the anti-ban arguments.

What Mortal Spin does
Aside from what it physically does (removes hazards and influcts poison), Mortal's main effect on the meta is essentially monopolizing hazard removal, allowing defensive mons to make substantial amounts of progress, and significantly encouraging the omnipresence of Covert Cloak. Mortal's dominance over removal can be both tied to both itself being good (good move in general + few meta-revelant Steels to block it) and that the other removal forms are pretty bad (-ateSpin is really not doing too hot, Tidy Up suffers from a small pool of "viable" users, and Defog is Defog), meaning in most teams it's completely fine to just go with multiple Mortal users and call it a day. Mortal also allows otherwise-defensive Pokemon, most prominently RegenVest users, to make substantial progress against the enemy team well beyond any other tool (besides the banned Ceaseless Edge) they've ever had. Cloak being everywhere is almost exclusively due to Mortal's presence, as being poisoned severely limits a defensive Pokemon's options and typically forces them to enter extremely linear (and often exploitable) Strength Sap strings.

Pro-Ban Arguments

1. Defensive Pokemon make too much progress with it. This is pretty self-explanatory but Mortal arguably gives too much leverage to Regenerator and non-boosting FurScales to make progress against the opponent, which manifests as heavily-defensive structures using Mortal + Knock a ton to force progress from a safe, uninteractive position that's often stale for both parties involved.​
2. Cloak spam isn't healthy. Mortal creates a de-facto "best item" on pretty much every defensive option except for Yveltal and Ho-Oh in order to cope with it. I don't personally think that this is a healty aspect of the meta, as it severely limits building creativity and forces teams into linear, predictable defensive cores. Cloak being essentially mandatory also has a side effect of buffing most offensive Pokemon due to the substantial opportunity cost of Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots essentially making them void choices, contributing both to the predict-right-or-die nature of threats like Kartana and stifling the amount of offensive threats you're able to run due to Improofing constraints.​
3. Cloak is pretty much the only good option to defend against it. Magic Guarders, which enjoy being poisoned as they take no damage and can't be paralyzed, are very uncommon; the only relevant ones with a tangible amount of bulk to actually flex are Mega Mewtwo X and Ho-Oh, both of which hate potentially losing Life Orb from trying to absorb a RegenVest's Mortal and Ho-Oh being on the fringe of viability. Outside of this, basically nothing wants to actively take Mortal Spin, as even something like RegenVest Primal Kyogre will be at a net loss of HP if it switches in with Stealth Rock up and clicks one non-pivot move. This basically leaves Cloak and Take Heart as the only reasonable options to defend against it, and with Take Heart realistically only working on bulky boosting Arceus formes (and maybe Miraidon), Cloak still holds absolute dominance here. There also aren't a ton of Poison- and Steel-types on offer with which to absorb it (only about 3 good ones), with Arceus-Poison as the best option since it usually doesn't care about Knock either.​

Anti-Ban Arguments

1. It's necessary as a hazard removal tool. This can be pretty much pinned down to Stone Axe being similarly omnipresent. With the other removal options being pretty meh choices, this might seem like the only good option. However, this unironically a product of Mortal's own doing, as the dominance it gives to Cloak accidentally buffs Stone Axe by essentially removing Boots from the equation in most cases. We could also just get rid of Stone Axe if Mortal were to go.
2. Cloak beats it. This is in the most literal, devoid-of-context sense, true. Although, it's also a pretty shallow argument when you consider that Knock Off exists and is usually spammed by teams using Mortal for progress (and no, "Just don't get knocked" does not count as reliable counterplay) and that there are numerous meta options that will gladly take advantage of essentially not having to play against something with an item slot.

You can probably tell that i'm pretty heavily pro-ban given the way i've written this, but I just wanted to put my stance out there. I think that a Mortal Spin ban (and likely a subsequent Axe ban; in my mind the meta would probably shift from Cloak spam to cope with Mortal to Boots spam to cope with permarocks, which isn't really better) is pretty much the best way forward, and i've seen quite a few other people sharing my viewpoint, though I'd want to get the view of this thread before saying anything firm in terms of action.


Bit of maths: assuming Toxic Chain is a 30% proc rate and you have 100% accurate Population Bomb, the easiest way to work out the poison chance is to just do 100% - (chance to not get poisoned), which ends up as 100% - (70% ^ 10) = 100% - 2.824...% = about 97.175% poison chance.

If you go with Wide Lens for 99% Pop Bomb accuracy, the chance of any one hit poisoning is essentially 30% * 99% = 29.7%, so the same process gives about 97.051% poison chance.

You forgot point 3. Take Heart means setup sweepers don't necessarily have to be worried about poison with the newly added calm mind, although it's not necessarily something 100% reliable in anything remotely fast.

Still, Stone Axe, Lumina Crash and Stone Axe are very likely worth suspect tests. Lumina crash is a move who also explains the heavy usage of Covert cloak atm, because every single specially defensive pokémon needs to be able to wall a lumina crash user, and due to the harsh special defense drop that's only possible with covert cloak. That hurts pokémon like Ho-Oh because it needs boots to work defensively and Magic Guard only works offensively.

As I've said before, the mix of Lumina Crash and Stone Axe is causing the meta to be overly defensive/reliant on passive damage, and Mortal Spin is the second best way of implementing passive damage besides rocks and even better than Salt Cure in that aspect, another egregious move who at least has more normal counterplay in theory.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

You forgot point 3. Take Heart means setup sweepers don't necessarily have to be worried about poison with the newly added calm mind, although it's not necessarily something 100% reliable in anything remotely fast.

This is something I did indeed mention in point 3 of the pro-ban arguments; that the pool of good Take Heart users is essentially limited to just the pool of current/old Calm Mind users, which is itself basically only Arceus and some fringe use on Miraidon. Take Heart isn't something you can simply just slot on a random defensive Pokemon for the status cure and still actually get a good amount of utility from.

As I've said before, the mix of Lumina Crash and Stone Axe is causing the meta to be overly defensive/reliant on passive damage, and Mortal Spin is the second best way of implementing passive damage besides rocks and even better than Salt Cure in that aspect, another egregious move who at least has more normal counterplay in theory.

Mortal is significantly more of a contributing factor in the passive damage than these IMO. Lumina Crash sees by far its biggest use on MMX and not much else, meaning that the defending Arceus/Miraidon are the things largely confined to Cloak, but nothing else is specifically running Cloak for the Crash immunity when it's realistically only one common Pokemon that they have to fear it from. Stone Axe annoys neutral targets and forces pretty much everything to take chip, but playing with near-permanent rocks isn't completely unsalvageable in the same way 3 layers of Spikes is (especially given a lot of big Pokemon resist Rock and basically only two relevant ones are weak to it), and as I said, Stone Axe's effectiveness is ironically exacerbated by Mortal causing Cloak's dominance over the item slot; Rocks themselves aren't exactly dealbreakers, but it's the ease of setting them up with Stone Axe that makes them as common as they are.

 

[Eelstartega]

Lumina Crash sees by far its biggest use on MMX and not much else, meaning that the defending Arceus/Miraidon are the things largely confined to Cloak, but nothing else is specifically running Cloak for the Crash immunity when it's realistically only one common Pokemon that they have to fear it from.

That would be a compelling argument... If it wasn't that Mewtwo is literally present in half of the meta as we saw in the tournaments. If you're that common on teams you're inevitably causing tons of meta shifts, like Chansey causing spooky plate judgement on ghost types. In case of MMX it is causing people to use covert cloak on ice scales users and even some fur coat ones.
Also, I'm sure I said ALONGSIDE... Oh wait, I didn't even though I meant to. It's both Lumina crash AND Mortal Spin why you're using covert cloak which singlehandedly makes pokémon way worse at checking other things; Again, Ho-oh can't use covert cloak, which makes it unreliable against MMX.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Lumina Crash vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Ho-Oh: 224-265 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That seems reliable at first but

1. Ho-Oh can't OHKO MMX with Brave bird, even one with -defense nature from Mewtwo or Adamant nature, if it got its life orb knocked off.
   • 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 338-402 (81.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2. Mewtwo outspeeds you so you can't really outheal this, and even if you could Strenght Sap heals less the more you use it.
3. Crits exist, and any unlucky crit can cause you to lose your pokémon.
4. While yes, Ice Scales could wall Mewtwo more reliably, it's also incredibly vulnerable to knock off those teams have precisely to remove covert cloaks and boots so they can chip you down.

That's why I feel there's such a problem in the meta, Semi-Stall is way too OP because it has a gameplay that's way too effective that goes something like this.

• Lead with your Chansey to scout your opponent
• Set rocks and knock off covert cloak/boots with your regenvest pokémon.
• Force switches via walling the opponent with fur coat, ice scales, imposter chansey and regenvest recovery, which will start some cumulative damage.
• Try to remove hazards and sparse poison with mortal spin, which will give you even more passive damage while avoiding the opposing one.
• Keep your mewtwo in the pocket to finish a weakened opponent, rather than as a wallbreaker.
• Try to use the 6th pokémon that has not been mentioned as a way to cover weak matchups, most notably something to cover Arceus-Ghost.
• Rinse and repeat, or as kids would call it, ... profit.

We know it's not as straightforward but indeed in practice said playstyle has next to no counterplay if played properly, because said pokémon are way too vulnerable to just fainting from all the chip damage, and is not like you can abuse the mostly passive style because Chansey can check almost every setup sweeper and MMX can outspeed almost any wallbreaker.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

In case of MMX it is causing people to use covert cloak on ice scales users and even some fur coat ones.

... which is largely Arceus and Miraidon. Which is what I said in that post.

Again, Ho-oh can't use covert cloak, which makes it unreliable against MMX.

Even if it wasn't forced into Boots, Ho-Oh would be unlikely to even be a MMX answer to begin with. Choice Band sets simply delete Ho-Oh with Wicked Blow, and mixed sets can still easily fit Wicked Blow but can also feasibly slot in other anti-Ho-Oh options that have other utility like Electro Drift. It's specifically MG MMX without a coverage move that Ho-Oh supposedly "would wall" if it could affort Cloak, and this isn't even that good of an option to begin with, as HJK does 37.5% min (not a safe amount any way you cut it).

That's why I feel there's such a problem in the meta, Semi-Stall is way too OP because it has a gameplay that's way too effective that goes something like this.

These teams aren't semi-stall. You might have a different perception coming from different tiers but these 4-2 structures (4 "defensive", 2 "offensive") are the norm for balance this gen. Unlike standard tiers, "defensive" mons aren't largely stuck to defensive roles and more often than not have a sizeable offensive profile that the opponent can't just ignore (see: Miraidon, almost every defensive Arceus, most RegenVest mons, Imposter, arguably Zacian-C); the only thing that really fits this do-nothing-but-live bill is Prankster, which has been relatively unpopular this gen. Games in this tier are inevitably longer due to full EVs, high BST, and everything having recovery, but that simply doesn't translate to "this tier is stall" in practice.

 

[izlore]

Can 4-2 even reasonably be called semi stall? That's bulky balance at best, especially considering a lot of those 2 offensive pieces have the tendency to be really squishy, often unable to take two hits even from defensive mons. such as Diancie folding like laundry to Regenvest steelix if it gigatons, and Simple No retreat Lunala folding to the same's knock off, depsite both seeing a decent amount of usage. Or a +1 judgment form fc Arc hitting mmx fairly hard. I'd think Semi stall would be doing less with defensive pieces and their offense would be bulkier