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Hey all, I'm new to forums and have peaked #36 on ladder with this team and finally feel confident enough to begin sharing with you all. That being said, I give to you my sample submission. Team Name: Better Call Chansey Synopsis: PalkiaO+Diancie Balance Paste:https://pokepast.es/a235e241694b7111
The team is essentially Palkia-O balance with as much ability to get it in as possible while also balancing itself out to all of the residual and setup sweepers we have. I realized that Palkia-O was probably the single best breaker alongside Diancie in the format and needed to figure out how to fun it while also not getting swept by it and this is where I ended up.
The titular star of the show. This is the most basic yet effective Palkia set we have yet it is so effective at deleting teams and Ice Scalers. The only thing that truly stops this mon is Espeed Diancie, Ice Scales Chansey, and its improof. Just play patiently and get it in vs full health teams or weak teams it never usually matters.
The Palkia improof. Not much else to say abt it. It's a fine set limited truly only by it's speed. I did try out a Zacian with like Torque and V-Create but it was pretty terrible. Completely improofed by Ho-oh. This can still dent teams pretty hard but without Webs support this is a means to an end. I want to test out Torque, V-Create, and Tidy Up. Let me know your thoughts on this set instead.
FC Ho-oh is something I haven't tried before but really enjoy. Do note while you now have a very solid MMX answer, SNR Ghosts are now a very large issue. One that I am working towards solving but haven't decided on an answer yet. Maybe it's just Take Heart Arceus.
A peculiar set but highly effective MBouncer as well as debilitator against teams without Heal Bell. Teams with Heal Bell usually slot them onto Chansey, Blissey, or Audino and all of the above struggle against MBounce. Also very good into lead Steelix teams, forcing them out and Toxicing walls.
It's FC Miraidon, it is simply FC Miraidon. Walled by itself, traps Imps, walls physical mons. It's standard because it's good. Only change I've made is adding Salt Cure to have Salt Cure on the team somewhere and by adding Spikes so I can at least have some form of Hazards.
IC Arc Poison. Absorbs Mortal Spins and scares out the user. Not much to say. Torch Song has been quite good but in most cases I'd rather have had Take Heart. After thinking about it, I made it TH just so you can maybe sit on non Stored Power Ghosts.
All in all its a team that can beat its hard matchups with a little bit of smart play and just like all BH teams has the capability to lose to bullshit. I really love this team though and after about 3 weeks of testing I think it is in almost the perfect shape. Testing wise, today on ladder we've manage to go 11-4 which is a 73% wr.
Weakness:
SNR Arceus, MDiance with any rock move AND Precipice, Mold Breaker MMX, MMX with coverage for Ho-oh
Hey all, I'm new to forums and have peaked #36 on ladder with this team and finally feel confident enough to begin sharing with you all. That being said, I give to you my sample submission. Team Name: Better Call Chansey Synopsis: PalkiaO+Diancie Balance Paste:https://pokepast.es/a235e241694b7111
The team is essentially Palkia-O balance with as much ability to get it in as possible while also balancing itself out to all of the residual and setup sweepers we have. I realized that Palkia-O was probably the single best breaker alongside Diancie in the format and needed to figure out how to fun it while also not getting swept by it and this is where I ended up.
The titular star of the show. This is the most basic yet effective Palkia set we have yet it is so effective at deleting teams and Ice Scalers. The only thing that truly stops this mon is Espeed Diancie, Ice Scales Chansey, and its improof. Just play patiently and get it in vs full health teams or weak teams it never usually matters.
The Palkia improof. Not much else to say abt it. It's a fine set limited truly only by it's speed. I did try out a Zacian with like Torque and V-Create but it was pretty terrible. Completely improofed by Ho-oh. This can still dent teams pretty hard but without Webs support this is a means to an end. I want to test out Torque, V-Create, and Tidy Up. Let me know your thoughts on this set instead.
FC Ho-oh is something I haven't tried before but really enjoy. Do note while you now have a very solid MMX answer, SNR Ghosts are now a very large issue. One that I am working towards solving but haven't decided on an answer yet. Maybe it's just Take Heart Arceus.
A peculiar set but highly effective MBouncer as well as debilitator against teams without Heal Bell. Teams with Heal Bell usually slot them onto Chansey, Blissey, or Audino and all of the above struggle against MBounce. Also very good into lead Steelix teams, forcing them out and Toxicing walls.
It's FC Miraidon, it is simply FC Miraidon. Walled by itself, traps Imps, walls physical mons. It's standard because it's good. Only change I've made is adding Salt Cure to have Salt Cure on the team somewhere and by adding Spikes so I can at least have some form of Hazards.
IC Arc Poison. Absorbs Mortal Spins and scares out the user. Not much to say. Torch Song has been quite good but in most cases I'd rather have had Take Heart. After thinking about it, I made it TH just so you can maybe sit on non Stored Power Ghosts.
All in all its a team that can beat its hard matchups with a little bit of smart play and just like all BH teams has the capability to lose to bullshit. I really love this team though and after about 3 weeks of testing I think it is in almost the perfect shape. Testing wise, today on ladder we've manage to go 11-4 which is a 73% wr.
Weakness:
SNR Arceus, MDiance with any rock move AND Precipice, Mold Breaker MMX, MMX with coverage for Ho-oh
Yooo nice team! Does seem a little weak to m chomp and especially kyurem b tho, also maybe arc poison could be haze for snr ghostceus? Maybe that or just change it to the more usual arc fairy.
Yooo nice team! Does seem a little weak to m chomp and especially kyurem b tho, also maybe arc poison could be haze for snr ghostceus? Maybe that or just change it to the more usual arc fairy.
You can still have haze for phys setup probably (I.e tidy mega garchomp, mayhaps). Or you could put in one of the dozens of utility moves in the game I.e stone axe salt cure mortal spin will o wisp glare spikes toxic knock off could all prob work. Could also have haze on miraidon for phys setup.
Team Name: Astral Divinity - No Retreat Lunala + Choice Band Mega-Garchomp + Take Heart Arceus-Ghost
Synopsis:
Banded MChomp is a powerful wallbreaker, however it can't exactly break through Fur Coat Yveltal, which No Retreat Lunala with Final Gambit helps significantly. Final Gambit also target Ice Scales Arceus formes, or other Ice Scales users like Ho-Oh which can help Take Heart Ghostceus to go absolutely insane.
The gameplan's pretty simple. You do typical balance stuff early on, spam Knock, scout stuff, you get the idea. Once you have an opportunity to get Lunala in, that's where things get funny. (If they have both Yveltal and a Ghostceus checking Ice Scales user) They have to choose between either sacrificing Yveltal to lose to MChomp, or the Ghostceus check and lose to, well, Ghostceus. And then after that it should be fairly smooth sailing.
Weaknesses:
- Mega Sceptile again askdaskldkfmmf why does this 6-0 all my teams
- No hazards kinda suck, but I usually find myself winning before needing to play a game that long.
- Mold Breaker Kartana and Mold Breaker Kyurem-B are huge struggles (but also so will most structures tbh).
Other options:
- Ice Scales Ho-Oh can be used over MPert for a way better time vs non-Rock move MDiancie and Mega Sceptile while retaining to be a decent Blacephalon and special setup Arceus formes (except Water) check in exchange for a horrendous matchup into Miraidon and POgre instead.
- Flip Turn (and minspeed) can be used over Haze on MPert to bring in MChomp easier but Take Heart + Thunder Cage Arceus formes become quite annoying.
Take Heart
TH wincons are just really inconvenient to stop. haze being the only really good anti-setup option is a contributor here, as unaware still relies on a neutral matchup to actually beat the booster (given the tcage chip most of these are inflicting), heart swap means you're still ultimately giving up boosts (meaning it essentially devolves into a game of who crits first), and phazing doesn't really work on regenvest since both arc-ghost and arc-fairy are feasible options (meaning regenvests have to basically pick which one to be unable to phaze). status obviously doesn't work, and short of haze + infestation, salt cure is about the only passive damage you can inflict to slow them down, which recover sets can always shake off. it doesn't help that th stuff can be both fur coat and ice scales without any major indication besides which types tend to be which ability more often, so you can't easily just slap on something like cb mbee and force them out after a slow u-turn. actually picking a consistent mon to answer it is also inconvenient thanks to all of ground (arc-psn judge), fairy, ghost, other ground (arc-ground revdance), and even dragon (mirai) in addition to tcage's raw damage and chip. can see this as suspect-worthy, but with topsy looming (malamar was in a trailer) a quickban now doesn't make much sense.
Agree with this. Felt like I was the only one who was completely on-board when someone else in this thread brought up Take Heart as potentially being an issue. Silly move. I would even say that on bulky Arceus sets, the absurdity of it can easily contend with Quiver Dance. The only real way to stop TH is with Haze on an Ice Scales mon and/or dancing around it with a slow Parting Shot users. Dragon Tail/Circle Throw on a RegenVester if you are matched into the correct Arceus set. Big "if." At least with QD, you could also neutralize them with Nuzzle or put them on a timer with Toxic or Mortal Spin. The status healing mechanism of TH prevents any of that aside from a slow Mortal Spin user spamming the move--which is not a practical strategy since it can Sap on you while doing so or just attack you when they're at +2, +3, SpA or higher. The only downside (or another upside? depending on how you look at it) is that Imposter can come in on you and heal a para/poison for free.
Also agreed on the Salt Cure point. My main beef with this move is how badly it ruins Steels and Waters without Cloak (even with it, have fun avoiding Knock) or Magic Guard.
hi, tiering action is unlikely until dlc2 thanks to both how close it is and om championship but wanted to drop my thoughts on current banlist-related stuff
Take Heart
TH wincons are just really inconvenient to stop. haze being the only really good anti-setup option is a contributor here, as unaware still relies on a neutral matchup to actually beat the booster (given the tcage chip most of these are inflicting), heart swap means you're still ultimately giving up boosts (meaning it essentially devolves into a game of who crits first), and phazing doesn't really work on regenvest since both arc-ghost and arc-fairy are feasible options (meaning regenvests have to basically pick which one to be unable to phaze). status obviously doesn't work, and short of haze + infestation, salt cure is about the only passive damage you can inflict to slow them down, which recover sets can always shake off. it doesn't help that th stuff can be both fur coat and ice scales without any major indication besides which types tend to be which ability more often, so you can't easily just slap on something like cb mbee and force them out after a slow u-turn. actually picking a consistent mon to answer it is also inconvenient thanks to all of ground (arc-psn judge), fairy, ghost, other ground (arc-ground revdance), and even dragon (mirai) in addition to tcage's raw damage and chip. can see this as suspect-worthy, but with topsy looming (malamar was in a trailer) a quickban now doesn't make much sense.
Mega Diancie
has very few consistent answers that don't fold to one set or another. fairy resist is mandatory but fire-types get cooked by either rock coverage option, the only functional poison-type on offer is arc-psn (unless you want to run physdef fezandipiti or some whack), and steels pretty much require an ability to shake off v-create (so fire immunity or fur coat basically), essentially leaving you with fur coat arc-psn and fire-immune registeel as "consistent", semi-slappable answers; it also doesn't help that specs 2hkoes arc-psn with revdance and +spd registeel needs to be basically intact to live 2 boombursts with rocks. soundproof is the other answer, but none are honestly that great, since both ground and good physical bulk is required to actually live espeed / revdance / v-create and not just get volted on forever, essentially leaving groudon and mpert as responses, neither of which are particularly good without twaves/tarrows. changes in dlc2 are unlikely, but we can't know with certainty beforehand.
Salt Cure
generic strong utility move that basically anything can slap on in order to punish pivoting, annoy/slow down (but rarely completely stop) boosting threats, and for some reason out-DPS ho-oh. the ease at which this can be spammed would likely be its main reason for a ban, as steels seldom run cloak apart from registeel, and teams without a magic guard mon (which, given the recent uptick in sheer force mmx, is quite a lot) sort of just have to suffer long-term without any major other answers
Personally I kinda don’t understand m dia being so controversial, it’s very easy to fit a Pokémon like arceus poison on a team, the problems with “dying to a different variant” is kind of
1. Kind of part of bh just in general
2. Ignoring the possibility of having a scales with a good m dia mu + smth that walls mixed.
Salt cure on the other hand fuck yes please Gimma salt ban.
Personally I kinda don’t understand m dia being so controversial, it’s very easy to fit a Pokémon like arceus poison on a team, the problems with “dying to a different variant” is kind of
1. Kind of part of bh just in general
2. Ignoring the possibility of having a scales with a good m dia mu + smth that walls mixed.
Salt cure on the other hand fuck yes please Gimma salt ban.
the issue is that poisonceus is the only check, ever. scales ho-oh dies to stone axe/rev dance, most regenvests die with a spike up or just straight up espeed/specs, steels get vc'd or headlong'd, there really just isn't a good check to it aside from poisonceus, not unless you go into gimmick territory like primsea registeel. it just isnt a good thing for the meta tbh
Personally I kinda don’t understand m dia being so controversial, it’s very easy to fit a Pokémon like arceus poison on a team, the problems with “dying to a different variant” is kind of
1. Kind of part of bh just in general
2. Ignoring the possibility of having a scales with a good m dia mu + smth that walls mixed.
Salt cure on the other hand fuck yes please Gimma salt ban.
the issue diancie has is that there isn't really any "Pokemon like arceus poison"; as said above, fire and steel both don't really function that well into it thanks to rock stab and v-create, and the only poison type with an actual stat line (that isn't eternatus) is arc-psn before you start dipping into the category of "im using this mon basically only as a diancie check and nothing else" (see nihilego; it can only justifiably do one other thing, being beating th arc-fairy, and even then they're boosting and you're probably not so even that's questionable). while arc-psn is itself not that hard to fit on a team, it's by no means flawless, and having it be one of two semi-consistent answers doesn't scream long-term healthy (especially given its the arc slot). scales with good specs mu + something that walls mixed also misses the point that the overwhelming majority of diancie "walls" usually do well enough when walling both types of set at once, so running a specs wall + running a mixed wall is just going to result in a major duplication of resources and a largely-wasted team slot (given you're probably running something that does ok enough into specs as the mixed wall anyway).
the issue diancie has is that there isn't really any "Pokemon like arceus poison"; as said above, fire and steel both don't really function that well into it thanks to rock stab and v-create, and the only poison type with an actual stat line (that isn't eternatus) is arc-psn before you start dipping into the category of "im using this mon basically only as a diancie check and nothing else" (see nihilego; it can only justifiably do one other thing, being beating th arc-fairy, and even then they're boosting and you're probably not so even that's questionable). while arc-psn is itself not that hard to fit on a team, it's by no means flawless, and having it be one of two semi-consistent answers doesn't scream long-term healthy (especially given its the arc slot). scales with good specs mu + something that walls mixed also misses the point that the overwhelming majority of diancie "walls" usually do well enough when walling both types of set at once, so running a specs wall + running a mixed wall is just going to result in a major duplication of resources and a largely-wasted team slot (given you're probably running something that does ok enough into specs as the mixed wall anyway).
What you’re describing here applies to every other Pokémon in the game, is it a problem that miraidon and arc poison struggle into hlr Kartana? Or how fc yv and scales arc fairy lose to fleur cannon and gigaton respectively from mglo mmx? Also if diancie ““walls”” can do fine into both mixed and specs then what is the issue exactly
What you’re describing here applies to every other Pokémon in the game, is it a problem that miraidon and arc poison struggle into hlr Kartana? Or how fc yv and scales arc fairy lose to fleur cannon and gigaton respectively from mglo mmx?
The examples you mentioned (headlong kart, fleur/gigaton mmx) still has to actually fish for the right mons because they have multiple checks - Headlong Kart still isn't doing jack shit to FC Ho-Oh or Gigaton MMX still losing to Mirai (assuming you run Astral to not instantly lose to Imp) whereas MDiancie has one singular shaky check (no nihilego isn't good you lose to literally everything else AND lose to ground move either way)
What you’re describing here applies to every other Pokémon in the game, is it a problem that miraidon and arc poison struggle into hlr Kartana? Or how fc yv and scales arc fairy lose to fleur cannon and gigaton respectively from mglo mmx?
kartana simply works as a different mon thanks to choice band being its only set on balance and the one move you're clicking 80% of the time forcing it to switch after, meaning it plays much more linearly and predicting wrong sets you much further back than diancie predicting wrong; kart also can't do mixed at all, meaning something like a fur coat ghostceus is 100% guaranteed to be able to slow it down. the good kart set (headlong so it doesn't just lose to psea regi / fc dia-o / fc mirai / etc basically on the spot) also makes improofing a nightmare, whereas diancie isn't strong enough without an item + its sets don't vary enough to where you can't use a scales arc or regen steelix to do the job.
on the topic of mmx, these are coverage options, meaning you're having to give up other really desirable options like astral barrage and freezing glare to run the two moves you said; mmx can't beat everything it wants to on the one set, whereas diancie largely can thanks to not really having to make any difficult choices between which moves to run.
"doing well enough" isn't necessarily "doing fine"; it's doing enough to where you aren't instantly losing to the mon in question, but not much more above that. my argument was that mixed answers are generally doing well enough into mixed sets to where you aren't instantly losing to it (even if the check can't really be described as "solid"), meaning that dedicating a whole other team slot to beating specs mdia is pretty wasteful; you may as well use a different scales mon that's more adept at handling special threats like mirai, etern, and boosting arc.
Hey I recently wanted To try some stuff but hadn't the occasion To, so I wanted your opinion on a regenerator necrozma dusk and Also F.E.A.R as it Is a really funny way To take down one Or two of uR opponents' mons as long as you have good Hazard control. I Also wanted To know How strong globally was mzam as mmy Is banned, maybe breaks less easely but Is faster, I tried some psystrike+moonblast+fire blast/trick+volt Switch stuff but the oppo could p easely play around it. I Then wanted To ask the place of levitate in the tier as poison- and fire-types could Do some real good stuff with it.
For FEAR I personally use diglet-alola as it can:
Safely Switch in on mortal spin, Switch in if tspikes are up, get one kill Or two, koff the item of oppo's ghost Type (assuming one) as it Is a force Switch in. It sure has flaws, like ghost types, multi-hit moves, hazards, absence of stats as it Is level one.
I chose diglett-a as it has immunity To weather conditions (yes we are Never guaranteed not To face one), immunity To toxic, does not prevents you of using a dialga-o (I know that someone here knows FEAR dialga-o), has very very low hp To be Even more awful with unaware, basically a shut down To defensive mons that either mortal spin To damage, toxic Stall, Or are taunt passive stuff. surely weak To leftovers tho, but you can koff on the Switch, and play tspikes. i'm not saying that it Is viable (I doubt it) bit It's definetly something worth trying for How fun it Is.
Also want To know global opinion on rapid spin, as it Is less predictable imo than mortal spin, removes hazards as Well, Even tho it doesnt posion, it boosts speed and shenaningans can be found like shenaningans can be found about everything.
also what are good fire types in the tier? I feel like hooh Is forces To have either boots Or magic guard so Is restricted in a way, arceus suffers From concurrence with Other formes, victini and volcanion Just arent bulky enough and heatran Just seems so wrong To me While it may be exploitable.
Hey I recently wanted To try some stuff but hadn't the occasion To, so I wanted your opinion on a regenerator necrozma dusk and Also F.E.A.R as it Is a really funny way To take down one Or two of uR opponents' mons as long as you have good Hazard control. I Also wanted To know How strong globally was mzam as mmy Is banned, maybe breaks less easely but Is faster, I tried some psystrike+moonblast+fire blast/trick+volt Switch stuff but the oppo could p easely play around it. I Then wanted To ask the place of levitate in the tier as poison- and fire-types could Do some real good stuff with it.
For FEAR I personally use diglet-alola as it can:
Safely Switch in on mortal spin, Switch in if tspikes are up, get one kill Or two, koff the item of oppo's ghost Type (assuming one) as it Is a force Switch in. It sure has flaws, like ghost types, multi-hit moves, hazards, absence of stats as it Is level one.
I chose diglett-a as it has immunity To weather conditions (yes we are Never guaranteed not To face one), immunity To toxic, does not prevents you of using a dialga-o (I know that someone here knows FEAR dialga-o), has very very low hp To be Even more awful with unaware, basically a shut down To defensive mons that either mortal spin To damage, toxic Stall, Or are taunt passive stuff. surely weak To leftovers tho, but you can koff on the Switch, and play tspikes. i'm not saying that it Is viable (I doubt it) bit It's definetly something worth trying for How fun it Is.
Also want To know global opinion on rapid spin, as it Is less predictable imo than mortal spin, removes hazards as Well, Even tho it doesnt posion, it boosts speed and shenaningans can be found like shenaningans can be found about everything.
also what are good fire types in the tier? I feel like hooh Is forces To have either boots Or magic guard so Is restricted in a way, arceus suffers From concurrence with Other formes, victini and volcanion Just arent bulky enough and heatran Just seems so wrong To me While it may be exploitable.
For a defensive role like regenerator solg is probably better then necrozma dusk mane although both are kinda mediocre. M zam is just ok, has a lot of competition with deoxys attack (ability to run mixed and greater spa is very good). Rapid spin has some use mainly for Pokémon that can force out ghost better then steel I.e yveltal. Outside of those examples you mentioned the only fire type is m blaziken which is not great.
Tea Guzzler did one of these a while ago, back in pre-Full Dex meta, and I thought it might be useful to do another one. This is basically a congregation of the meta mons, the sets they run, and how to check/counter them. I decided to include more defensive mons as well because many of them do have kits that make them reasonably threatening or annoying. List is in order of viability then alphabetically within ranks, Pokemon that can check/counter regardless of their own set are placed at the end to avoid confusion. More niche checks are separated by a |. Here are the BH analyses and the setpedia if you don't know the sets.
This also serves as an option for players to consider some Pokemon lower on the viability rankings as options on teams instead of recycling defensive cores. This is likely not comprehensive and there's a guaranteed chance that I've missed something so let me know on Discord if I need to change anything.
Do note that in BH generally "checks and counters" are used less traditionally compared to most other metas. In normal discussions and such "checks" typically refer to Pokemon that can answer the typical sets or most moves on a Choiced set (basically act as a generally accepted defensive answer, see Sometimes Counters and below) while "counters" typically refer to Pokemon that can answer practically every viable set and/or go beyond by limiting even other progress making attempts (e.g. blocking hazards, Spins, Sap recovery) (see Generally Counters).
Generally Counters: Counters most viable variants of the set Sometimes Counters: Counters some variants of the set, typically dependent on coverage Soft Checks: Generally shaky as an answer and is not reliable as the only answer (such as requiring to be near full health to avoid range or taking huge damage from a coverage), or a defensive pivot that can take hits and bring in teammates safely Offensive Checks: Offensive threats that win the 1v1, typically by either outspeeding or surviving any hit and OHKOing back. Generally relies on pivots from "Soft Checks"
It is important to realize that the answers vary depending on the sets threats use and so identifying the set is highly important. Imposter or bulky Regen scouting are obvious choices but it is also possible to guess the set through looking at the team. For offensive Pokemon looking at potential opposing Improofs and for defensive Pokemon look at their partners and basic threat check to infer the ability (also calc, calcing can basically immediately give away offensive ability + item or defensive FurScales).
Notes: (SpD) refers to either RegenVest or Ice Scales. Norm Pult/Flutter can offensively check anything that cannot touch them are are slower so I'll exclude them.
Choice Band MMX has very high damage output and the option between two abilities limit the number of good checks. Fur Coat Poisonceus and Eternatus can take even Teravolt attacks while other neutral Fur Coats generally do ok but take significant amount from Teravolt Close Combat (or Wicked in Ho-Oh's case); FC MMX itself is a highly questionable set but does counter every non-Poltergeist set. Other Fur Coats are either susceptible to a coverage option (or Flip Turn for Fireceus), though they can get the wrong predict once, or need to be practically full health. Imposter is generally a great switch-in, capable of taking some hits before finding opportunities to heal off. Ghost-types, despite always being coveraged for, helps deter CC. For several answers that are susceptible to Teravolt, forgoing the item slot for Ability Shield provides high security, though it is recommended to use it on stuff that can also answer Normalize.
Generally Counters: (Fur Coat) | (SpD) Sometimes Counters: (Imposter) (Fur Coat) | Soft Checks: Offensive Checks: (Magic Guard) |
Life Orb Mixed MMX has a plethora of different coverage options to pick and choose its counters. It's lower damage output compared to Band means that without the right coverage there are multiple consistent answers, though some still take significant damage and are forced to remain healthy. Offensive checking is the same as before, though it is harder to chip down Magic Guard variants.
Generally Counters: (Take Heart) (Cloak Imposter) Sometimes Counters: (Magic Guard) (Ice Scales) (Jungle Healing) | Soft Checks: Offensive Checks:
Miraidon isn't exceptionally offensively threatening but between Thunder Cage and Mortal Spin chip and Torch Song boosts long term it can wear down softer counters like Fairyceus. Miraidon is also exceptionally susceptible to Knock Off sometimes, making it an attractive choice to trade health for Knock Off on Pokemon like Mega Steelix and Primal Kyogre. Various Dragons are effective into Mortal Spin variants but must be cautious of the rare Dragon-STAB variants.
Generally Counters: (Take Heart) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) (SpD) Soft Checks: (Magic Bounce) (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks:
Magic Guard boasts more power and resilience to stuff like poison, making it notably more difficult to answer. Thunder Cage chip still does long term pressure against many would-be strong counters. Pokemon like MegaPert and physical Groundceus also are annoyed by Strength Sap. Keeping Miraidon chipped is highly useful as it neuters Dragon Energy power.
Generally Counters: (Cloak Imposter) (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters:
Soft Checks: (RegenVest) (Ice Scales) | Offensive Checks: (Steel Move) | (Gigaton)
Fairyceus is usually a defensive presence but its high bulk and typing can make it difficult to stop when setup. It generally lacks power without sufficient boosts so Ice Scales Pokemon with Haze can easily check and then do whatever utility. Various Ice Scales or Fairy-resistant Pokemon can also engage in setup wars in an emergency, with passive damage sources like Thunder Cage being extremely helpful. RegenVests generally can sponge hits, do utility stuff, and pivot to teammate. Offensively SE STAB is rare but Kartana and Beedrill both greatly threaten, while MMX needs the correct Steel coverage to hit the right spectrum and Zacian-C only works against Scales.
Mixed Diancie's main threat is its incredibly strong ESpeed and lack of choice-lock making it more difficult to scout. Ice Scales Arc-formes are decent checks but need to either be +Def or preserve high health to avoid 2HKO from LO ESpeed, while Fairyceus is a worse check due to not having SE STAB. Fire-immune Steels are vulnerable to Ground-coverage variants (Celesteela needs to maintain health for Boomburst). FC Victini is an alright check but also needs high health, Ho-Oh walls all non-Stone Axe variants. Toxapex and Nihilego both wall non Ground variants.
Theoretically, Specs Diancie has no long term counters due to Boomburst's PP and coverage, but it can be checked short term and relies on accurate prediction. Fairy-resists and Ice Scales neutrals will generally be stalled out of recovery PP long term, but they can short term check if they have SE move. Ho-Oh, especially Scales, checks non-Rev Dance variants, while Poison's check non-Earth Power variants. Offensive checks mostly function the same, though Specs has a notably weaker Extreme Speed.
Generally Counters: (Imposter) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) Soft Checks: (Magic Guard) (RegenVest) (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks: |
What RegenVest POgre lacks in power it makes up for with its utility. The combination of STAB coming off 180 SpA and utility moves like Knock Off make it a challenging support mon to reliably switch into. Generally the most common answer is to identify the team member that is least valued in checking offensive threats to take the utility moves. Take Heart Arc formes are resistant to both Knock and Mortal but can easily get pivoted on. Dialga-O and Ferrothorn are the hardest counters in the sense that they block Kyogre's Mortal Spin. Kyogre has weak defense making offensive checking quite reasonable. Imposter works as a solid option if it can afford to be dedicated in the role.
The most challenging aspect of handling Take Heart Ghostceus is actually threatening it due to natural bulk boosted by Fur Coat, Strength Sap, and Take Heart boosts along with a typing that's extremely hard to exploit (since one of the SE types is itself which is vulnerable). Limiting Strength Sap recovery cuts into Ghostceus's longevity. Different Ice Scales Pokemon can engage in setup wars and usually come on top thanks to Scales. Haze on checks, while being passive, denies setup. Plate Imposter is decent but can easily be denied healing by opposing Imposter or get Knocked. Salt Cure is one of the better methods of pressuring. A chipped Ghostceus can be vulnerable to various offensive opportunities, particularly to Teravolt.
Generally Counters: (Plate Imposter) (Ice Scales) (Fur Coat) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) Soft Checks: (Imposter) Offensive Checks:
Dealing with No Retreat Ghostceus typically involves neutralizing its stat boosts. Haze/Clear Smog can easily force a switch while Strength Sap practically guarantees at least one full heal and neutralizes the Attack. It is important to be wary of Triple Arrows side effects, and Gunk Shot/Noxious Torque can catch Fairy-types at +2. Plate Imposter is significantly better here and Eviolite Imposter also can PP stall some Judgments in a pinch. Offensive checking is nearly impossible due to stat boosts, Wicked Blow would work if there was a user that doesn't die.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) (SpD) Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks:
Poisonceus lacks raw power but it can be deceptively annoying to deal with. Thunder Cage is a typical coverage option and its chip damage is useful in allowing Poisonceus to win setup wars considering its strong typing leaving it with few weaknesses. Salt Cure is one of the few options that are effective in chipping it down. Limiting Sap recovery is also effective in keeping Poisonceus in range of offensive breakers. Ice Scales users can engage in setup wars if necessary. Mortal Spin variants are completely countered by Celesteela, who can also pivot into Thunder Cage variants with little boosts.
Choice Band Kartana has devastating power that greatly limit number of reasonable answers. The choice in ability also further limits checks, though the niche Ability Shield can nullify Teravolt. Headlong Rush as a coverage move allows Kartana to break past many would-be checks and cannot be ignored. Kartana is however slow and has atrocious SpD leaving it vulnerable to many revenge-killing opportunities. Gigaton's recharge turn can also prevent it from picking up certain KOs immediately, though it is crucial to be wary of Struggle's surprising power. Kartana is often paired with anti-Sap measures, so its imperative to prepare for such by having multiple checks and Sap users that can dissuade anti-Sap Pokemon.
Generally Counters: Sometimes Counters: | Soft Checks: (Speed tie Imposter) (Primordial Sea) Offensive Checks: (Only at +1)
Setup Kartana after a boost becomes very difficult to revenge-kill and has even more power than Band. Not being Choice-locked also can further complicate checking. Ability Shield on Fur Coat users can bandaid against setup Kartana. Making accurate predicts and forcing V-create speed drops for revenge-killing or V-create/Headlong Rush defense drops for priority also can work in a pinch. Water-types generally work since Grass-STAB is the most commonly dropped in favour of Gigaton/V-create/Headlong.
Generally Counters: Sometimes Counters: (Cloak Imposter) | Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks:
Arceus-Ground is somewhat similar to Arceus-Poison, except Thunder Cage is rarer due to the worse Imposter matchup and it can also run a moderately rarer physical set. Countermeasures are roughly the same, Poison-inducing variants are completely walled by Celesteela, Covert Cloak Imposter walls most variants. Groundceus typically runs Ice Scales, making it more susceptible to physical wallbreakers like Mega Mewtwo X.
Generally Counters: (Imposter) (Adamant Crystal) (SpD) | Sometimes Counters: (No Retreat) (Ice Scales) (RegenVest) Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks: |
Dialga-Origin's main threat comes from the potential of Doom Desire, as otherwise it behaves similarly to other RegenVests. Imposter and RegenVests are solid answers if they do not mind losing their item, though Imposter needs to recognize that its Doom Desire will be noticeably weaker. Take Heart Arceus formes do not care about Knock Off or status, but Dialga-O can slow pivot on them. Dialga-O is also susceptible to various methods of revenge-killing.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Imposter) (No Retreat) (Adamant Crystal) (SpD) Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) | Offensive Checks: (Specs) (Teravolt) | (Teravolt)
Non RegenVest Dialga-O's main differences are usually not carrying Knock Off, equipping Adamant Crystal so resistance to Knock Off, having Teleport instead as pivoting, and having the chance to be running Fur Coat. These make RegenVests notably worse at gaining momentum as it can set up Doom Desire and slow pivot out. It can also carry a boosting move alongside Doom Desire to pack a punch. Imposter needs to be wary of being worn down and sapblocked by opposing Imposter.
Generally Counters: (RegenVest) (Primordial Sea) | (Primordial Sea) Sometimes Counters: (Imposter) (RegenVest) Soft Checks: Offensive Checks: (Dragon STAB)
Eternatus's main deal is Teravolt bypassing every Ice Scales not carrying the niche Ability Shield as well as its unique Poison STAB dealing with some common SpDs. Eternatus is generally reliant on high Dragon Energy damage and thus limiting its health is effective at neutralizing it. Its speed tier is respectable but is still slower than several threats and tying Mewtwo which provides revenge-killing opportunities. Note that Eternatus can rarely forgo one of its offensive moves for hazards.
Generally Counters: (Fur Coat) | (Fur Coat) Sometimes Counters: (Fur Coat) Soft Checks: (Speed tie Imposter) (RegenVest) (Fur Coat) Offensive Checks: (Only at +1) | (Only at +1)
Setup Mega Garchomp is very difficult to answer, practically mandating Fur Coat neutrals + Strength Sap as it can 2HKO even the bulkiest Fur Coats. Due to its reliance on setup, it is recommended for teams that cannot afford a hard check to limit the setup opportunities. Offensive checking is limited but Diancie is effective. Imposter risks speed tie but if Garchomp is paralyzed or such it can threaten back if improofs are shaky.
Generally Counters: (Fur Coat) | (Fur Coat) Sometimes Counters: (Fur Coat) Soft Checks: (Fur Coat) Offensive Checks: (Dragon STAB) |
Choice Band boasts more initial power but has the weakness of being slow and prediction reliant due to both STABs having immunities. Slower Fur Coats however risk getting 2HKOed or hit by coverage. Due to no speed boosts there are significantly more options for offensive checking.
Kyurem-B is somewhat similar to Band Garchomp, though the STAB type difference changes up some checks. Teravolt is also a more viable ability here that can take down some Fur Coats. One crucial difference though is Kyurem-B's crippling Rocks weakness, making keeping up Stealth Rock a strong counterplay against it.
Generally Counters: (Imposter) | Sometimes Counters: (No Retreat) (RegenVest) (Adamant Crystal) Soft Checks: | Offensive Checks: (V-create) | (SoR V-create)
Most RegenVests behave similarly. Mega Steelix is slower than most RegenVests making it have a generally favourable matchup into them, but it is usually more reliant on its Assault Vest due to its low SpD. Its lower SpD in general and typing leaves it susceptible to some common attacks. Mega Steelix's high defense can make offensive checking more difficult as it can withstand weaker coverage moves rather comfortably.
Generally Counters: (Adamant Crystal) | Sometimes Counters: (Cloak Imposter) Soft Checks: (Imposter) (RegenVest) Offensive Checks:
Yveltal isn't super threatening in general. Main things to watch out for are just Knock Off and Take Heart setup. Imposter can be risky into Yveltal due to Spirit Shackle being reasonably viable. Take Heart Thunder Cage Arceus formes are generally safe into Yveltal with the most risk being taking some poison damage chip. Numerous other pivots can switch in and generally gain momentum but need to accept being Knocked. Note that Kartana needs to be wary of switching into a weakened Yveltal to attempt to pick it off as +Spe Yveltal outspeeds neutral Kartana.
Generally Counters: (Imposter) (Adamant Crystal) | Sometimes Counters: Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) Offensive Checks: (V-create) | (V-create)
Celesteela is about as standard as any defensive Steel. Only unique aspect is the typing making some checks notably worse. It is worth noting that Primordial Sea is a set and that obviously nullifies Fire moves.
Generally Counters: arceus-ghost: (Fur Coat) (Primordial Sea) | (Primordial Sea) Sometimes Counters: (Take Heart) Soft Checks: (Imposter) | Offensive Checks: (Right Rock STAB)
Ho-Oh's main threat comes from its strong V-create, and it can also carry some utility moves. Knock Off and Mortal Spin users can heavily cripple Ho-Oh due to it being forced into Boots. Take Heart Arceus formes once again can absorb hits provided it doesn't take chunks from V-create. Primordial Sea Steels generally stone wall Ho-Oh and prevent it from spinning. Ho-Oh however is rather resilient to being threatened heavily by offensive threats, Diancie needs to have the correct STAB into Fur Coat or Ice Scales.
Generally Counters: arceus-ghost: (Fur Coat) (Primordial Sea) | (Primordial Sea) Sometimes Counters: (Imposter) Soft Checks: (Imposter) Offensive Checks: (Rock STAB)
The main difference with this set is its lower dependency on its item and its higher likelihood of packing Flying STAB. Imposter needs to be wary of the stray Head Smash. Note that several of these counters will actually lose long run due to MG Ho-Oh's high PP STABs but it will take quite a long time.
Generally Counters: (Magic Guard) Sometimes Counters: | Soft Checks: (Imposter) (Magic Guard) Offensive Checks: (Steel/Poison move) |
Mega Audino is highly dependent on moves like Knock Off and Salt Cure to make progress as it is otherwise extremely passive. Due to its tendency to run Teleport on top of a very low speed, it is very hard to slow pivot on Audino, though Pokemon that naturally underslow Mega Audino can tell if Mega Audino is using Teleport. Steel-types and Gigaton Hammer are effective at threatening it, but there is the rare Baneful Bunker that can scout. Note that while Knock Off + Salt Cure is incredibly annoying to switch into, it is also difficult to improof without very specific generally suboptimal sets, so Mega Audino will often not run the combination of the two moves, this allows for easier answering, as without Salt Cure Arceus formes are good and without Knock Off Covert Cloak beats.
Generally Counters: (Fur Coat) (SpD) (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Fur Coat) Soft Checks: (RegenVest) Offensive Checks: (Ice Scales)
Blacephalon has a very strong V-create that's supplemented by Astral Barrage. Due to Choice Scarf boost Blace can often outspeed walls even after a V-create. Blacephalon's biggest weakness is its lack of OHKO potential along with Rocks weakness, so keeping Pokemon out of Blace's range and maintaining Stealth Rock is effective. Blace also is quite prediction reliant, as both V-create and Astral Barrage often hit narrow 2HKO benchmarks, making select Regens a decent soft check choice. Watch out for Trick and Volt Switch racking up damage. Outspeeding basically doesn't exist due to Blace's Speed and resistance to PixiSpeed, but a lot of offensive picks can survive a hit from full and KO back.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) (SpD) | Soft Checks: (Imposter) (RegenVest) (Fur Coat) | (RegenVest) Offensive Checks: (Bullet Punch) | + (Most stuff that don't get OHKOed)
Sheer Force/Magic Guard Deoxys-Attack focuses on using various powerful coverage moves to hit as many walls as possible. Such sets can be dangerous due to having the potential to pack moves for most meta walls viably, and Deo-A's stat spread makes it difficult to scout with Imposter without a sack. As such, there are really no safe switch-ins to "coverage man" Deo-A. However, it cannot run every coverage option at once, considering the numerous viable defensive options, and so it can get walled depending on what its missing. Due to no Psychic Surge its also prone to priority. Deo-A also can have trouble hitting OHKOs on targets without substantial chip, limiting its opportunities.
Common Physical Coverage Types: Fire, Electric, Poison, Ground, Fighting, Steel
Common Special Coverage Types: Grass, Electric, Ice, Ground, Psychic, Ghost, Steel, Fairy
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) (Fur Coat) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) (Fur Coat) | (RegenVest) (Fur Coat) Soft Checks: (Primordial Sea) Offensive Checks: | + (Most stuff that don't get OHKOed)
Psychic Surge's difference is a notably more powerful STAB that does good damage into neutral targets and protection against priority. Despite not having Sheer Force boost or Magic Guard's moves, it still has access to some strong coverage options. It does have an issue of taking Life Orb recoil, as well as being outsped after V-create drops.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) (Ice Scales/Desolate Land) | Soft Checks: (Imposter) (Ice Scales) (SpD) (RegenVest) (Fur Coat) Offensive Checks: (Gigaton) | (Gigaton)
Mega Gardevoir is somewhat similar to Mega Diancie, its Boombursts will wear down most Ice Scales. The secondary STAB difference changes some answers but otherwise its mostly the same.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) (SpD) (RegenVest) | (RegenVest) Sometimes Counters: (Plate Imposter) Soft Checks: Offensive Checks:
No Retreat Lunala's main threat is usually less about it being a problem but more about it using Final Gambit to pave the way for its teammates such as No Retreat Arceus-Ghost. As such it is imperative to play around the possibility, and having back up checks is highly helpful (such as Yveltal + Scales). Unlike Ghostceus, Lunala's moveset is generally more rigid, making answers consistent. Lunala lacks the Knock Off resistance that Arceus-Ghost has, and ceases to function when Knocked due to Imposter walling, so RegenVest Steels which can all generally take a hit can counter. Offensive checks are still non existent outside of the very rare Sucker Punch.
Mega Swampert actually has high attack for a defensively oriented Pokemon and solid STABs + Mortal Spin help greatly reduce its passivity. STAB Flip Turn is strong at generating momentum even against checks. Offensive checking can be tough due to Swampert's decent bulk, ability to run both boosting abilities, and difficult to exploit typing.
Generally Counters: (Salt Cure in general) (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) | Offensive Checks:
Take Heart Arceus-Water's biggest weakness is Salt Cure, which shuts down all non-Magic Guard variants as Cloak is easily knockable. Other than that, it is similar to other Take Heart Arceus formes, with benefits from the lack of common weaknesses Water has, albeit Thunder Cage weakness can be annoying.
Generally Counters: (Magic Bounce in general) (Judgment/Revelation Dance) Sometimes Counters: (Revelation Dance) (Judgment) Soft Checks: (Prankster Glare) Offensive Checks: (Bullet Punch) (Only for Flutter) |
Normalize is pretty linear in terms of checks. Magic Bounce completely counters it and denies any other commonly used moves like Spikes and Taunt. Most Judgment/Revelation Dance users are capable of dealing good damage back, though Flutter Mane can boost past with Take Heart and beat Yveltal with Pixie Plate. Certain status moves like Glare are not neutralized by Normalize but risk running into the common Taunt. Strong priority and faster Pokemon are also effective checks as Normalize does not run speed boosting and Flutter Mane lacks Def.
Generally Counters: (Fur Coat) Sometimes Counters: (Fur Coat) Soft Checks: (Imposter) (Fur Coat) Offensive Checks: |
Ash Greninja's unique aspect is its rather distinct STABs and mixed potential. It also can competently utilize crit moves, making Strength Sap less effective. Its high speed tier is another distinctive aspect that limits revenge-killing.
Generally Counters: (Ice Scales) Sometimes Counters: (Ice Scales) | (RegenVest) Soft Checks: (Speed tie Imposter) (RegenVest) (Ice Scales) | (RegenVest) Offensive Checks:
Palkia-Origin can be dangerous to teams that lack sufficient counterplay to its unorthodox offensive type. Nasty Plot can overwhelm Take Heart users before they can boost up, Speed Boost denies most offensive counterplay, and Palkia's decent bulk, typing, and unremovable item makes defensive Pokemon also struggle at dealing with it. Despite Speed Boost being the most common and strongest, Magic Guard can also be an option that prevents Salt Cure and status from wearing down Palkia and weakening Dragon Energy. Ice Scales users that can meaningfully threaten back are generally solid, and the aforementioned utility also helps.
With DLC 2 on the horizon tiering actions are usually on hold due to significant meta shifts that are coming, but I believe there are two aspects that can be tackled prior to DLC dropping. I will also share my thought on some other problematic aspects. These are all my own opinions and not representative of council and such. Stuff are ordered in my priority. Yes I know this is a double post but I wanted to get this out fast.
1. Liquid Ooze - Quick Ban
Liquid Ooze is uncompetitive. This ability might not be broken (depending on how you view sapblocking as a whole) but it is undoubtedly uncompetitive with the interactions it creates. I would compare it to a (lesser) version of Innards Out. I've proposed this already in OM cord a few times at this point. One of the main points that people have brought up is how significant is the difference between Liquid Ooze and other sapblocking methods, namely Magic Bounce and stat based sapblocking (with a hint of stuff like Sap Sipper), to warrant banning Liquid Ooze and not the others.
I think that sapblocking in general is bound to be an aspect of the metagame. Strength Sap is simply too necessary on physical walls to neutralize the obscenely powerful threats, and a lack of decent setup control also further mandates the move (I will cover more of this in a later part of this post). However, I do find general sapblocking to be reasonably healthy currently (and any problematic elements are the enablers/abusers of sapblock), and I think that the thinking required behind picking appropriate sapblockers and doing the contrary for physical walls to attempt to bypass sapblockers is an interesting part of teambuilding. Liquid Ooze however, does not fit into this "healthy" interaction.
The biggest problem with Liquid Ooze is that, unlike the other sapblocking methods, Liquid Ooze's punishment is significantly harsher. While Magic Bounce reverses some momentum by healing the Bouncer and Sap Sipper boosts their attack, Liquid Ooze straight up deals a huge chunk of HP and can very often kill. What this means, is that there is no room to play around the sapblock. Against Bounce, if you clicked Sap into the Bouncer, they healed, you did not and wasted a turn, but you can still play the game from here. This is extremely important. You still have the opportunity to pressure the Bouncer or switch out and find another opportunity to heal up. Worst case scenario, your Sap Pokemon is stonewalled by their Bouncer, you still have the Sap Pokemon and can maybe use it to check the threat one more time or use it as a double switch potential. Ooze denies all of this, if you clicked Sap into the Ooze user, chances are that Pokemon is now fainted.
It is also important to realize that the Ooze user is basically irrelevant here, as long as it has enough Attack. If the Ooze user has a favourable matchup into the Sap user, great, the difference between Ooze and Bounce is not significant. However, it is when the matchup is neutral or favoured towards the Sap user that we can see the issue. The mere presence of an Ooze user makes every turn where a Sap user wants to click Sap a dangerous mind game. Should it click Sap and risk dying to the Ooze user being on the field, or should it click the appropriate punishing move and risk being punished because the Ooze user is not on the field and it didn't get to heal up. Effectively, every such turn becomes a 50/50, and these turns are every turn while any Sap user is on the field. In fact, such interactions can be present even if Ooze is unrevealed. If a player is uncertain about a Pokemon with a reasonable attack stat (think 300+)'s ability, should this player need to play around the potential of a randomly revealed Ooze instantly granting the Ooze player a significant advantage?
These interactions are also exclusive to Ooze. If we consider Magic Bounce, then the interactions between a Sap user and a disadvantaged/neutral Bounce user is much more favoured towards the Sap user. The reason is that after a Bounced Sap, the Sap user is still alive and can pressure the sapblocker in front of it. Thus, not only does the sapblocking side have to accurately predict the Sap turn correct (which is also present with Ooze), but they then have to get subsequent turns correct as well, as mispredicting can either reset the health progress on the Sap user or cost the Bounce user significant health, while the Sap user is still intact.
These interactions caused by Ooze and only Ooze are what I would consider as uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame. It, in a way, albeit lesser, resembles Innards Out forcing every Pokemon to consider clicking any physical move, and Terastallization forcing revenge-killers and sweepers to consider clicking moves into their targets, and Dynamax forcing players to consider if the choice-locked breaker is going to DMax and break the choice-lock. Ooze is also going to be minimally affected by DLC, unless in a miracle we get dropped a 16 PP recovery move, Sap is going to be a defining part of the defensive meta and thus Ooze will continue to do its thing.
I don't actually have good replays to showcase here, not that I don't have any but because I'm not sure if my opponents want me to share the replays. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1988962365
Me vs Clas, Ooze doesn't do a whole lot here but it enables a bunch of improofing and it permanently cripples Clas's wincon. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1989261289
City vs QT, Ooze on turn 64, despite being revealed, kills a +2 Groundceus with a Ooze mon that takes big damage from the Groundceus and has Jungle Healing as its recovery
[Redacted Replay 1]
Me vs Tester1, Kartana Headlongs Miraidon and leaves it at 6%, I lose the predict and lose my Ooze Yveltal as the Miraidon clicks Thunder Cage. However consider if I predicted opponent to click TCage and click Headlong again and kill the Miraidon. Opponent cannot midground with Torch Song well because Torch Song into Yveltal doesn't deal good damage and next turn is forced into "Does Yveltal stay in".
[Redacted Replay 2]
Me vs Tester2, Kartana wins through MG Sap Mirai, FC Yveltal, and FC Poisonceus. Notable Ooze impact is killing the Poisonceus that would've otherwise reasonably checked Kartana.
[Redacted Replay 3]
Me vs Tester3, Kartana chips Lunala for 51% and then Ooze Yveltal kills it, eliminating the check and allowing Kartana to click buttons freely and clean.
2. Mega Diancie - Suspect
To the surprise of absolutely no one, Mega Diancie is oppressive. Its combination of typing, high mixed offenses, and the meta environment turn it into one of the most restrictive elements of the meta currently.
As shown from my previous post, Mega Diancie has extremely few reliable, viable counters, namely, Arceus-Poison and -Fire. Every other answer is either exclusively used to deal with it, such as Soundproof, and/or is unreliable and either gets blown apart by a perfectly viable coverage move or is 2HKOed after the slightest chip. Even Arceus-Fire is bordering on a more fringe Pokemon due to its Rocks weakness. Furthermore, both Arceus-formes actually need the correct ability to reliably answer the Diancie variant, as Scales would be susceptible to huge damage from V-create/Headlong Rush while Fur Coat gets worn down by Boomburst, Volt Switch, and 2HKOed by Earth Power.
The alternative to not committing your Arceus slot into checking Diancie, is... having multiple softer checks, with generally one of them being Scales Arceus. Which, by the way, is not a great check and absolutely mandates other checks on a team since Life Orb Neutral V-create + Extreme Speed does 83.7 - 99.0 and +Atk LO does 92.3 - 109.1 and Specs +SpA Boomburst deals 41.2 - 48.6. Similarly unreliable are Fire-immune Steels, which apart from dying to Ground-coverage, also take huge damage from Boomburst and can get Volt Switched down by Specs if not eliminated by Earth Power (+SpA Boomburst basically can 2HKO every Steel not named Registeel who needs to be +SpD). All these also do not consider the notably rarer but nevertheless viable Population Bomb, comfortably 2HKOing non Fur Coat Ho-Oh and dealing up to 96 to Scales Arc. Also, Diancie's moves are so strong and when combined with the threat of Extreme Speed means the Diancie user loses little momentum considering the opponent generally needs to heal less they want to get cleaned.
Mega Diancie practically mandates the Arceus slot be dedicated towards checking it one way or another. If you do not commit to such, you pretty much are forced into suboptimal options like Soundproofs (issues mentioned above and by Tea previous page), some other Poisons (generally passive and still fold to coverage or brute force), Fire-immune Steels (see above), as other misc. Ice Scales mons have worse mixed bulk than Arceus, meaning lower SpD leads to extremely shaky Specs Boom and Mixed Boom into ESpeed matchup, while lower Def means high vulnerability to 2x ESpeed or V-create into ESpeed.
Additionally, despite Poisonceus being quite a good Pokemon right now, it's status and position in the VR is practically mostly due to Mega Diancie. Poisonceus as a Fur Coat user does not reliably check Kartana nor Kyurem-B and cannot check Mixed MMX or Garchomp, and often can invite Garchomp in. This means that as a Fur Coat user, Poisonceus doesn't actually matchup that well into the 4 main physical breakers. I've been doing a lot of "teambuilding" involving Poisonceus recently, and the glaring weakness to Mega Garchomp on top of practically being forced into Strength Sap for improofing and helping to handle Kartana and Kyu-B makes it awkward to actually handle Chomp on less offensive teams. Chomp's setup and power basically forces Strength Sap as an answer (it can 2HKO FC Mega Slowbro), and running two Sap Fur Coats directly leads into the team being susceptible to Sap blocking (hey look at Ooze), thus forcing the team to consider alternatives like the very few Fur Coats that can both take a hit comfortably and kill back (can't use Fairyceus), or Celesteela, or pivoting into Mega Diancie to ESpeed.
A bit off topic but basically the point is that Poisonceus isn't actually very good outside of checking Diancie, and is only that good because it checks Diancie well compared to the alternatives.
For those that are familiar with other metas with Mega Diancie, some major differences that SV BH has in comparison that I believe pushes Mega Dianice over the edge are a combination of:
Nerfed Recovery PP, can't just heal up on Boomburst with faster walls like Arceus.
No Zac-C (ND), one of the best checks to Diancie, pretty much forces Fire moves as Ground moves don't punish as hard
Less offensive checks, along with Zac-C there is MMY and MGar, both don't die to ESpeed (latter comfortably) and can KO back
Less threats to Diancie, this is mainly Anchor Shot and Thousand Waves, especially the former.
I think it is perfectly valid to tiering action Mega Diancie prior to DLC because it is very reasonable that nothing in DLC will actually contribute to nerfing Diancie to a healthier state.
Anchor Shot is practically confirmed to not be returning, and while Thousand Waves is extremely likely, Thousand Waves doesn't usually OHKO Diancie anyways and is not going to affect defensively checking Diancie. In fact Thousand Waves can serve as a coverage option on Mega Diancie itself due to its trapping effect, preventing Steels from escaping.
Basically guaranteed no good checks will be released. As shown, not even Arceus level bulk is generally sufficient at handling Mega Diancie, and so it is quite reasonable to assume that none of the new DLC Pokemon would be able to do so. Highly highly doubt Terapagos has a typing/bulk to deal with Diancie, and even if so, I still think that the number of good Diancie checks is too few.
DLC introduces a lot of strong coverage moves that could just be beneficial to Diancie, examples being Blue Flare/Bolt Strike.
DLC generally introduces more offensive stuff, do not see stuff like MMY and MGar being balanced. Even still not a great point to keep Diancie because "MMY/MGar" offensively checks it.
There is no way we get good PP recovery back.
3. Kartana - Wait
Again to the surprise of absolutely no one. Kartana is absolutely crazy, probably more than Diancie. Gigaton Hammer practically never loses momentum even with its effect and slower, less bulky walls can sometimes just be picked off by the Struggle afterwards. The 4 coverage set has basically no reliable answer other than Fur Coat Ho-Oh as Arceus-formes take enormous damage from Gigaton or coverage, while the much rarer setup set can also just claim kills against teams without Ho-Oh or Water-types.
Kartana is basically one of the biggest abusers of Sap blocking. Almost every Kartana check needs to utilize Strength Sap to not fold which immediately leads to a problem if it gets sapblocked. Kartana's Rock's resistance also eases its switch-in and its sheer power compensates for its lower speed tier by threatening out stuff like non Torch Song Fairyceus, Groundceus, while slower Pokemon are even more bait for it to switch into and start tearing holes.
However the reason why I think Kartana should not be tiering actioned prior to DLC is because
Sunsteel is very very likely to drop and that automatically pushes Kartana over the edge for a QB, forcing Ability Shield meta is not ok. Other Steels can potentially be broken with Sunsteel but A. I think Kartana is banworthy regardless and B. Tier those other Steels/Sunsteel separately is fine IMO.
4. Arceus-Ghost - Wait
This might be surprising to some people. The main reason I put Arceus-Ghost above Take Heart in general is because I believe Arceus-Ghost is more restricting than the other Take Heart users in general. Disclaimer though, I think Arceus-Ghost is not in the best state right now due to what I previously mentioned in Mega Diancie since Ghostceus is not an Arceus that checks Diancie (unless the rare Scales)!
Arceus-Ghost's main difference with other Take Heart users is its Knock Off resilience (shared by Arceus-formes), its unique typing, and its Imposter matchup. Knock Off resilience is a minor point but its mainly to compare to the other Ghosts who can immediately be neutralized by Knock Off.
Typing-wise, on first glance Ghost isn't that great of a defensive typing with few relevant resistances. But the more important thing to consider regarding Take Heart users is the weaknesses. Ghost is weak to two types, Dark and itself. Obviously, using a Ghost-type to attempt to offensive check Ghostceus is not a good idea when Ghostceus likely has Fur Coat and Take Heart boosts. Dark types are practically non existent with the sole exception being Yveltal (more on that later). Non STAB even coming off strong threats like MMX typically lack power and defensive Pokemon don't even run these moves outside of Knock Off, which does little damage. This, combined with Ghost's lack of weakness to common priority, makes it virtually impossible to offensively deal with it after it gets even one boost up. This is different when considering the other common Arceus-formes, with Poison being weak to Psychic and the rarer Ground, Fairy being weak to Steel, Ground to Grass and Water, Fire to Water and Ground, and Water to Electric, Grass, and Salt. Even if the offensive threat carrying these strong moves cannot OHKO immediately, such as Mixed MMX into Poisonceus, it can 2HKO and not get OHKOed in return, something that is pretty much absent for Ghostceus.
Yveltal is the only relevant Pokemon in the meta that can reliably hit Ghostceus for SE damage, but its relative lack of power and Ghostceus's boosting means Yveltal needs Take Heart of its own to reliably deal with Ghostceus, severely limiting its moveset (Rev Dance, Take Heart, Recovery, one free move). Thus, to actually handle Ghostceus, either a rather mid Yveltal set is needed, or an Ice Scales with the passive Haze is necessary unless the plan is to go into Take Heart war into crit fish.
Ghostceus's perfect matchup into standard Imposter also means its both more resilient to effects like Salt Cure, since Imposter still loses unlike other formes, and its last coverage move is customizable. Most other formes typically use Thunder Cage due to its trapping and percentage based damage to improve the matchup against Imposter, but Ghostceus isn't locked into this and can consider options like Knock Off (very strong support, beats Plate Imposter), Sludge Wave (tech for Audino and Fairyceus), Thunder Cage (generally good + beats Yveltal). It also can consider regular Recover if it chooses to build its setup around it to avoid sapblock, or even the niche Nasty Plot. No Retreat is also a Ghostceus set but I don't think is particularly big in terms of Ghostceus's restrictiveness, though it is still relevant.
All in all I think Ghostceus, while probably not as good as certain Arceus formes in the current meta, is more problematic and restricting than any other Arceus forme. As a bonus it also heavily limits Rapid Spin's reliability due to, again, difficulty of actually pressuring it. However its definitely not like the biggest issue right now and DLC can introduce some tools as well, but do think it could be looked into in the near future.
5. Take Heart - Wait
Kind of explained by Tea and tzaur already, Take Heart is pretty restrictive in terms of good answers and we've seen multiple games where players engage in Take Heart wars. Its basically Poison Heal but slightly worse (Poison Heal is still stronger even though you can't run like Fur Coat as well because passive recovery is insane, not taking poison damage from slow Mortals end of turn is good, not having all recovery denied by sapblock is good, improof and denying Imposter of recovery is good, and you have extra move because not forced into Sap.
--------------------------------------------------
Other stuff Salt Cure I don't think is an issue at the moment. I had strong opinions a while ago but I think right now its a welcomed soft check into Take Heart so would rather wait. Salt Cure's issue is that it has no counterplay outside of MG and Cloak. Mortal Spin in comparison also had Poison types, Steel types, and Take Heart. Salt Cure is moderately more "Cloak-forcing" than Mortal Spin. Can see action on this a while into DLC meta.
Substitute is something I think is broken and stay banned. There have been numerous occasions recently where I was like "hey this would be nuts if I put Sub on it before realizing its banned". Substitute is arguably even stronger than Take Heart by denying all passive utility moves and even more than Take Heart such as blocking Knock. It also denies slow pivoting into offensive check types of counterplay and instead turns those mons into Sub fodder. I don't even think GaG or Soundproof is like the ideal stuff, you can literally stuff Sub with any defensive ability, forcing Parting Shot to slow down Sub users is obviously too much. We've also seen non GaG SProof Sub being used before Sub was banned and in ND (which by the way has stronger moves from defensive mons and the ubiquitous sub-bypassing Spectral Thief).
Poison Heal is something I've seen a few people bring up as something that can be revisited with new moves and such. But see my points on Take Heart. If Take Heart is already as problematic as it is Poison Heal is only going to be worse. Don't want to hide tag for spoiler again but the new moves that can drop are not even that good outside of specifically answering Poison Heal and all have weaknesses to stuff that are easily fitted on by Poison Heal sets with the sole exception of one move that A. might not even drop and B. needs to be combined with specific other moves to actually threaten. The sheer diversity of potential PH users also means that every team needs to fit multiple PH checks, and no Toxic Orb Imposter is not a representation of PH being healthy. (Also I think PH is like at least borderline in ND which has all the tools we don't have and stuff we will never have so like...).
Photon Geyser seems pretty crazy with the number of Psychics we have. However...
MMX and Deo-A both seem banworthy with the amount of stronger coverage (like Bolt Strike) coming in, currently MMX already is pick your checks and Deo-A is unscoutable. If both of these are gone theres a chance Photon is not oppressive but its still reasonably likely.
With MMX and Deo-A gone then Lumina should be unbanned as everything that it supposedly broke would be banned.
Bolt Strike and friends on their own seem fine.
Moongeist Beam is very strong, but the best abuser we have are Flutter Mane and Spectrier?! Potentially banworthy because AS meta bad but this is more uncertain.
New moves like the Heal Block thing (very likely bannable) and the Electric move that is super good under rain (also seems bannable).
Triage OWing is back and this has traditionally been very strong but without Tail Glow and particularly good abusers it might be ok.
Don't see anything on banlist that looks plausible for free other than Lumina.
More detailed discussions can be held for these aspects in terms of Day 1 Prebanlists when DLC is closer and the stuff is more or less confirmed.
I think most people have heard of Doom Desire Dialga (DDD) before, Doom Desire is a powerful move which lets you stack damage within one turn, potentially overwhelming recovery. Now if you don't know, DDD usually struggles with RegenVest mons that resist steel such as Kyogre and Steel, general steel types which are uncommon but nonetheless exist, Imposter and Ho-oh which apparently is becoming more popular due to Kartana allegedly adopting headlong rush. Now, the set above has several unique properties that puts it above other DDD sets that others have used in the past.
Firstly, the move combination is more dangerous. In the past people have tried running moves such as Nasty Plot, Draco Meteor and Torch Song to boost the lethality during the turn Doom Desire hits. This set aims to accomplish that same goal through a different means: percentage damage. With Thunder Cage and Ruination, you can reliably set the opposing mon to 50% hp (ruin), 37.5% hp (cage into ruin) or even lower if the opponent does not recover (ruin into cage). Doom Desire will kill most mons at this range.
The next property worth noting is that this set counters regenerator. If you don't know what Wandering Spirit does, it swaps abilities when the opponent makes contact. This means that if an opposing regenerator mon clicks u-turn, Wandering Spirit will trigger, replacing the opposing man's regenerator with itself and giving Dialga regenerator. This is effectively a 66% hp swing because your opponent just lost their regen and you just gained regen. Pretty cool, right? Because the ability triggers on contact, this applies on a lot of common moves used by regen mons. Some example of this include stone axe, mortal spin, knock off and nuzzle. A few things you should be aware of is that Mortal Spin will not trigger wandering spirit on a steel-type mon such as dialga because the move fails. The reason why I believe Dialga is a great mon to use this ability is because of its typing and knock immunity. I think everyone should know that Dialga's typing walls regenvest steelix and kyogre very well. It's weak to ground and fighting which are uncommon on regen mons.
Thirdly, the this set can beat imposter. If the Dialga is healthy enough, it can beat imposters by clicking tcage then ruin, similar to Miraidon.
Finally, this set can improof -ate Population Bomb sets. I would recommend Wide Lens SD fridge Kyu-b as an example with no espeed. After the first hit, the Kyu-b's fridge will be replaced with Wandering Spirit, making Dialga resist the subsequential hits. Furthermore, the imp will also be unlikely to hit all 10 times without wide lens or coil.
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Wide Lens
Ability: Aerilate
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Population Bomb
- Axe Kick
- Bitter Blade
Shuckle @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Infestation
- Super Fang
- Seismic Toss / Knock Off / Mortal Spin
- U-turn
The second mon which I think is as good as Dialga with Wandering Spirit is Giratina. Giratina is also knock-immune with the Griseous core/orb. Although this mon does not block Mortal Spin, it does block Rapid Spin. To make up for the Mortal Spin weakness, I suggest running Take Heart or Jungle Healing. Giratina's bulk lets it easily take knock off so don't worry about that. Now there are a couple of pros and cons to Giratina compared to Dialga. I'll list some now and talk about the special reasons after.
Pros: slightly bulkier, can wall mmx better, can't be trapped, blocks rapid spin.
Cons: weak to mortal spin and take 12% from rocks, a lot weaker compared to DDD.
Now outside of the obvious reasons above which apply to most opposing regens, I want to talk a bit about the two "improof" reasoning which you can run which applies to your team building.
The first is the SD + population bomb set. This is a very powerful set which is notoriously difficult to improof. The usual way to improof is to run wide lens and pray the imp doesn't hit you a lot and kill you anyways, rocky helmet and don't get knocked or prank bond which sometimes makes you lose two mons bc you need to sac one to safely bring it in. With wandering spirit, you can forget about the hassle and just tailor your set to be walled after the -ate ability is removed. I will say once again that Dialga can fulfil this role as well however there are a few notable downsides. Firstly of course you still take damage after the first pop bomb hit so at the end of the day Dialga takes more damage depending on luck
+4 252 Atk Aerilate Aerodactyl-Mega Pound (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 76-91 (15 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
+4 252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 230-280 (56.9 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
On average, neutral def Dialga will take about double the damage. Not only that, the imposter can click Pop bomb again after the first one on Dialga and still do damage whereas with Giratina, the pop bomb becomes useless. Now the other important reason is coverage. If you're running Dialga to improof the pop bomb, your pop bomb user can't run ground or fighting type moves. This means that the opponent's steel type will probably wall you. Meanwhile if you use Giratina, you can safely run Fire and Fighting moves as coverage because Giratina resists those.
The other reason why you can run Wandering Spirit Giratina is the Partial Trapping (infestation, tcage) + Ruination combo. Now at the moment a lot of regen mons are running the usual knock off/mortal spin/u-turn/stone axe utility set. Let me be clear and say that this is a perfectly fine set. But I would like to introduce you to a new direction to take regenvest: the percentage damage route with the shuckle set above. Lately I have come to realise the power of Ruination and Thunder Cage with the dialga set and was wondering what other mons could abuse it. Of course that led me to Regenvest because those moves ignore bulk and are extremely consistent so any mon can use it. The mon I chose to showcase the set is Shuckle but other options include toxapex, mega Audino, Registeel and other bulky but low threat mons. By abusing Ruination + Infestation, you can cripple walls significantly before u-turning out to your Big Kart, MMX, Diancie or whatever. Consider the calc below:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Poison: 131-155 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 12.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Poison: 91-108 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Poison: 82-97 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Shuckle Ruination vs. 252 HP Arceus-Poison: 50%
Shuckle Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Arceus-Poison: 100-100 (22.5 - 22.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Shuckle Infestation vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Poison: 12.5% per turn + trapping
Let it be known that shitmon specs Diancie can barely do 30% to Scales Poison Arc while gigachad Shuckle deals 50% while possessing 0.1% of Diancie's power. Truly, this mon is the embodiment of a true warrior ho has no need for swords. As an additional point, these weak mons also sap block very well due to their relatively lower attack. Now I know I've only been talking about Ruination and Thunder Cage, but there is one downside to those moves, and that is the fact that they are sometimes difficult to improof. Yes, you can 1v1 Imposter with it but sometimes you miss because they are only 90% accurate. Also if they u-turn after your ruination then the imp only lost ~20% hp and gives the opponent a free switch to the their offensive mons. This is where Giratina shines. By replacing Ruination with Super Fang and Thunder Cage with Infestation, you can completely improof such regen sets. I'm still not sure what Giratina set would work best since I think you should run take heart to remove poison but Giratina is too slow and weak to sweep, usually. However remember you can always just improof your own Giratina with your untransformed imposter chansey.
Hi so the BH Money Tour has concluded, here are the usage stats for the tour, Replay list for anyone who needs, and Eelstartega's Final's analysis which contains links to all their previous posts.
Once again thanks to everyone who has participated.
Since World Cup also ended shortly before (Cumulative usage stats here) I decided to combine the two usage stats for general observations. Moves and Teammates
Observations + Notes:
- Despite the Money Tour lasting 3 months and several tiering actions during that time period (+ a DLC) there were no significant meta changes during this time, with the most significant being the Take Heart drop from DLC (ok this is rather significant, expand later), followed by the Protean ban + Deo-A unban. Lumina ban is notable but MMX usage remains good due to still high viability and expansion into sets like Sheer Force.
- Generally normal winrates across the higher usage with no outliers. First outlying winrate is 22nd usage Deoxys-Attack, likely due to the successful usage by players like Nihilslave.
- Other winrate/usage outliers can mostly be attributed to either Sample Teams (or shared teams in thread) and specific players reusing teams. An example is Pheromosa - Tea.
- Certain low winrate yet decently used Pokemon can be attributed to being just not very good, such as Dondozo.
- Important to note that earlier rounds of the Money Tour have way more games and are also prone to more recycling of teams which can skew usage, most notably making later meta shifts have less impact on total usage. An example is Steelix's high usage rate despite dropping a bit recently, or Take Heart's high popularity not being shown as well.
- Imposter usage as expected, slight positive winrate also expected as with the dominating lead usage and above average winrate.
- Arceus usage is not 100%, I believe it is 402 out of 446 teams. Top 6 are Fairy (29%) - Ghost (27%) - Poison (22%) - Ground (6%) - Fire (6%) - Water (5%).
- Usage suggests that meta is somewhat centralized (not as centralizing as 1630 ladder), but that there are still room for innovation and techs as evident by a decently healthy number of lower viability ranks' usage.
- Not usage related but Take Heart interactions in recent games are incredibly interesting and entertaining to watch and requires the most skill to pilot.
- Thank you Akira Cirno HO for "Abomasnow - 8" and "Cetitan - 7".
Hi so the BH Money Tour has concluded, here are the usage stats for the tour, Replay list for anyone who needs, and Eelstartega's Final's analysis which contains links to all their previous posts.
Once again thanks to everyone who has participated.
Since World Cup also ended shortly before (Cumulative usage stats here) I decided to combine the two usage stats for general observations. Moves and Teammates
Observations + Notes:
- Despite the Money Tour lasting 3 months and several tiering actions during that time period (+ a DLC) there were no significant meta changes during this time, with the most significant being the Take Heart drop from DLC (ok this is rather significant, expand later), followed by the Protean ban + Deo-A unban. Lumina ban is notable but MMX usage remains good due to still high viability and expansion into sets like Sheer Force.
- Generally normal winrates across the higher usage with no outliers. First outlying winrate is 22nd usage Deoxys-Attack, likely due to the successful usage by players like Nihilslave.
- Other winrate/usage outliers can mostly be attributed to either Sample Teams (or shared teams in thread) and specific players reusing teams. An example is Pheromosa - Tea.
- Certain low winrate yet decently used Pokemon can be attributed to being just not very good, such as Dondozo.
- Important to note that earlier rounds of the Money Tour have way more games and are also prone to more recycling of teams which can skew usage, most notably making later meta shifts have less impact on total usage. An example is Steelix's high usage rate despite dropping a bit recently, or Take Heart's high popularity not being shown as well.
- Imposter usage as expected, slight positive winrate also expected as with the dominating lead usage and above average winrate.
- Arceus usage is not 100%, I believe it is 402 out of 446 teams. Top 6 are Fairy (29%) - Ghost (27%) - Poison (22%) - Ground (6%) - Fire (6%) - Water (5%).
- Usage suggests that meta is somewhat centralized (not as centralizing as 1630 ladder), but that there are still room for innovation and techs as evident by a decently healthy number of lower viability ranks' usage.
- Not usage related but Take Heart interactions in recent games are incredibly interesting and entertaining to watch and requires the most skill to pilot.
- Thank you Akira Cirno HO for "Abomasnow - 8" and "Cetitan - 7".
I'll point out though, there's 1 clear loser in all of this: KYOGRE-PRIMAL. The reason is simple, which is a shift towards passive damage which water types are the most vulnerable to by far (Weak to thunder cage, double damage from salt cure, neutral from rocks and vulnerable to poison damage).
That being said, this shift towards chip damage can be largely attributed to... well, only the better players remaining and it being the better strategy from the very beginning, just unappealing to newbies. The longer the tour went, the less people fooled around and the more serious was it taken, and the meta, while not that massive meta shifts, it got polished with stuff like Magic guard Arceus, Garchomp-Mega and Celesteela being more of a late bloomer and Blissey being more common on later weeks; is like main tiers if you think about it, a stable but not stagnant meta.
PS: How did I not realize filter was an option on those weird damage calcs? Also, You're welcome.
Before we begin, allow me to paint you the full picture. King DDD is cursed ever to wander. Eaten from the inside from malevolent Salt Cures, his longevity is long gone. Now he gathers the corpses of friends and foes alike, gorging on them, like a dog. Howling at the sky.
Introduction:
This team revolves around the goat, King DDD and his shepherds Regenvest Blissey and Giratina. They exist for the sake of King DDD. They will set hazards for the King. They will remove hazards for the King. They will pivot for the King. They will let the King in and offer up their Regenerator. Let it be known that even goats need shepherds to lead them. Two Fur Coats so we don’t insta lose to physical mons like Garchomp, Kyu-b and Kartana. Finally Big Imposter to force switches and do Big Imposter things.
How to play the team:
Bring in Dialga on Regenvest units like Steelix, Kyogre and Celesteela. If they click a contact move like U-turn, Knock Off, Stone Axe or Rapid Spin, Dialga will trade abilities, gaining Regenerator and giving the opposing mon Wandering Spirit. Dialga doesn’t have a contact move so it won’t trade the regen back. Dialga is your most dangerous mon so try to bring it in as much as possible. The team runs 2 regens which are completely walled by Dialga so take advantage of Imposters copying them. The choice of Doom Desire, Thunder Cage and Ruination depends on the situation. If the opponent has a full hp Kyogre, Steelix or Ho-oh, you can ignore the Doom Desire and just chip with Ruination and Thunder Cage first. If those mons are already chipped then you can look into using Doom Desire to kill them. Thunder Cage is exceptionally good against RegenVest other than Steelix because they are forced to click U-turn/Flip Turn, thus giving you their regenerator. If the opponent is likely to go to their imposter (they don’t have a good Dialga check or the check is weakened) then you should click Thunder Cage and spam Ruination. This will let you 1v1 the Imposter in most cases because their Strength Sap will not recover as much as yours and you’re “1 turn ahead” since you’ve already hit the Thunder Cage. Quick mechanic recap: if you switch Dialga out, calc the Doom Desire damage from itemless, no ability and +0 spatk Dialga.
The most important aspect of the team is to bring Dialga in safely as much as possible, preferably on regen mons. Your other mons exist to facilitate this game plan whether directly by being copied by imposter and walled by Dialga or indirectly by forcing out switches or controlling hazards and setup sweepers. Sometimes you can sweep with Arceus but don’t count on it.
Summary of roles:
Yoinks regen, big damage with Doom Desire, Ruination and Thunder Cage. Bring in King DDD as much as possible
Walls some mmx sets, spam knock stone axe u-turn dtail
Walls some arceus and special dragons and prevents them from setting up using clear smog. Spam u-turn knock mortal spin.
Cope walls kart and diancie, just trust me they never run ground or rock coverage.
Walls some garchomp mmx and kyu-b. Big Moonblast Damage. Wish bunker to troll Kart and contact move users. Haze for Ghost Arc with fighting coverage.
Big Brother is watching you.
Weaknesses:
You might have noticed that this team is not running Miraidon, Ho-oh or Poison Arc. The reason is because I wanted to use some other mons. That does mean this is weak to Diancie and Kartana In fact, the team’s only reliable check is the FC Fire Arc for both mons. Yes, this team loses to certain sets if you play don't predict correctly and no, I would not recommend making changes that makes the team worse just to be better in some circumstances. If you are looking for a team that can check all of Kart, Diancie, MMX, Garchomp, Kyurem and every offensive mon under the sun, this is not the one. However I'll provide some copium below.
Headlong Rush Kart + a sap blocker that beats Arceus: You have to predict the HR and go into Giratina or Audino. If you get the prediction wrong, Giratina can live one moldy Gigaton at least. There is no other option. You simply have to predict correctly.
Specs Diancie with Revelation Dance: you can go into blissey. Espeed does 60% but that allows you to go to Fire Arceus. Once you pp stall the espeed, you can safely wall with Blissey. Make sure to keep your AV as best as possible.
Diancie with Earth Power + sap blocker that beats Arceus: Again you have to pp stall out espeed but this time probably v-create as well. I’ll mention that if you get your Dialga in and click Doom Desire, that severely limits Diancie from coming in since it will get deleted if it is hit.
Choice Band MMX with perfect coverage: Just predict correctly. Try to knock with Giratina so they don’t OHKO or 2HKO every mon.
The Nameless Mimiking is the firstborn child of Gwoudyn, Lord of Sunlight[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] and one of the deities who resided in Anor Londo during the Age of Fire[9]. He was worshiped by the humans as the "god of war"[10]. During the war against the Dragons, the eldest son would have taken part in the fighting together with Dragon Slayer Ogrenstein[11] and his father Gwoudyn[12], using sunlight like him to create lightning spears and infuse his weapons[13] to damage the creatures' armor[14]. The god of war would have distinguished himself as a dragon slayer[15], using his swordspear imbued with lightning[16] and even creating his personal armor with the scales of his preys[17]. In addition, Ogrenstein, as his companion during the war, would also become his first knight[18] and as a god of war, the firstborn would have created his own covenant of the Warrior of Sunlight, a group of knights who venerated the heir of the sun and supported other fighters in battle[19], obtaining medals with the symbol of the divinity as trophies[20]. The eldest would recognize their efforts and reward them by teaching them his lightning miracles[21]. The sun warriors would also develop an original miracle based on the story of the Nameless Mimiking, Ogrenstein, and the brave dragonslayers in their service[22]. After his father Gwoudyn linked the First V-create[23] the throne of Anor Londo would pass to him, as the eldest son of the Lord of Sunlight and heir to his light[24], He would thus wear the golden crown and the title of "Mimiking of the gods"[25] and "god of the sun"[26] of his father[27], however, as the god of war, he had respect only for arms and nothing else, proving himself not a capable ruler[28]. At a certain point, the eldest son of Gwoudyn would go too far as he decided to sacrifice everything to ally himself with the ancient dragons[29], probably fascinated by their strength in his foolishness[30], and the Mimiking would even manage to tame a "stormdrake", bonding with him through battle[31]. This behaviour proved intolerable for the other deities of Anor Londo, archenemies of the dragons with whom they had fought until their extermination in the past, condemning the firstborn to be dethroned and exiled from the city[32]. The fury of the gods was so great that the former Mimiking even lost his deific status, his statues were destroyed and his name erased from the annals of history[33]. Before leaving Anor Londo, the eldest would have left his sunlight blade miracle and ring on Gwoudyn's empty grave in his mausoleum as a final farewell, still demonstrating respect for his father[34]. Although now out of the pantheon of the gods and without a place, the god of war would continue to watch closely over his warriors of the sunlight[35], listening to their prayers and rewarding the proofs of their exploits with his miracles of Sunlight Spear and Great Lightning Spear.[36].
Introduction: The Nameless Mimiking is the firstborn child of Gwoudyn, Lord of Sunlight[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] and one of the deities who resided in Anor Londo during the Age of Fire[9]. He was worshiped by the humans as the "god of war"[10]. During the war against the Dragons, the eldest son would have taken part in the fighting together with Dragon Slayer Ogrenstein[11] and his father Gwoudyn[12], using sunlight like him to create lightning spears and infuse his weapons[13] to damage the creatures' armor[14]. The god of war would have distinguished himself as a dragon slayer[15], using his swordspear imbued with lightning[16] and even creating his personal armor with the scales of his preys[17]. In addition, Ogrenstein, as his companion during the war, would also become his first knight[18] and as a god of war, the firstborn would have created his own covenant of the Warrior of Sunlight, a group of knights who venerated the heir of the sun and supported other fighters in battle[19], obtaining medals with the symbol of the divinity as trophies[20]. The eldest would recognize their efforts and reward them by teaching them his lightning miracles[21]. The sun warriors would also develop an original miracle based on the story of the Nameless Mimiking, Ogrenstein, and the brave dragonslayers in their service[22]. After his father Gwoudyn linked the First V-create[23] the throne of Anor Londo would pass to him, as the eldest son of the Lord of Sunlight and heir to his light[24], He would thus wear the golden crown and the title of "Mimiking of the gods"[25] and "god of the sun"[26] of his father[27], however, as the god of war, he had respect only for arms and nothing else, proving himself not a capable ruler[28]. At a certain point, the eldest son of Gwoudyn would go too far as he decided to sacrifice everything to ally himself with the ancient dragons[29], probably fascinated by their strength in his foolishness[30], and the Mimiking would even manage to tame a "stormdrake", bonding with him through battle[31]. This behaviour proved intolerable for the other deities of Anor Londo, archenemies of the dragons with whom they had fought until their extermination in the past, condemning the firstborn to be dethroned and exiled from the city[32]. The fury of the gods was so great that the former Mimiking even lost his deific status, his statues were destroyed and his name erased from the annals of history[33]. Before leaving Anor Londo, the eldest would have left his sunlight blade miracle and ring on Gwoudyn's empty grave in his mausoleum as a final farewell, still demonstrating respect for his father[34]. Although now out of the pantheon of the gods and without a place, the god of war would continue to watch closely over his warriors of the sunlight[35], listening to their prayers and rewarding the proofs of their exploits with his miracles of Sunlight Spear and Great Lightning Spear.[36].
How to play the team:
The team begins with the Legendary Dragons entering the field and wrecking havoc with the deadly SD/Tidy Up and -Ate Population Bomb set. The Nameless Mimiking will descend from the heavens and absorb the strength of a Legendary Dragon once it is defeated by Big Imposter, gaining enough power to reduce his enemies to ash.
You should try setup with any of the 3 Legendary Dragons and click Population Bomb. For reference, a 10 hit STAB -Ate Population Bomb has 360 Base Power, the same as a non-stab super-effective V-create. Collision Course is only there to hit steels and you should never use it unless the steel is already in because even resisted bomb is 180 BP. Once Big Imposter emerges from the back alley to stop your sweep, click Outrage*. I’ll explain a bit more below. After that, you can either continue to sweep with your dragon or sweep with The Nameless Mimiking. Ho-oh and Arc are here to cope wall Diancie.
The Nameless Mimiking and its comrades:
doesn’t get OHKOd by phys mons because it’s kinda bulky.
New tech with Silk Trap which lets you outplay your opponent. If cb Kartana is in, you can click Silk Trap. Gigaton gives you a free turn since it is disabled on the next turn. V-create or other contact move drops Kartana’s speed which means you can outspeed and OHKO with Population Bomb. Also works vs MMX and other physical attackers if they go for a contact move. You can outplay Imposter. You always Tidy Up on the Silk Trap, then you can outspeed and do a lot with Outrage. Alternatively, predict the Outrage/Bomb and Silk Trap. Then, predict the opponent’s Silk Trap and go for Tidy Up.
This one hits fc Miraidon and Ho-oh with STABs.
When your opponent brings in their Imposter to copy your Legendary Dragon, you simply just click Outrage (apart from Kyu-B). Let’s break down the scenarios.
Imp is weakened and you outspeed, killing it
Imp is not weakened but they clicked Population Bomb, not killing you. You hit them with Outrage
Imp is not weakened but they clicked Population Bomb, killing you.
Imp is not weakened and you outspeed, so it takes a lot of damage but your Dragon dies
Imp outspeeds and kills you with Outrage
Now, the only bad scenario is 3. You have to avoid this scenario. For reference, +2 salamence pop bomb needs 7 hits to kill you from full. +1 Kyu-B also needs 7 hits to kill your Kyu-B from full. Your Outrage needs a bit of chip to kill because of Eviolite, even when you are boosted. Zekrom quad resists so you’re always safe. Remember Imposter usually doesn't carry Wide Lens so on average they only hit 5-6 times.
Apart from this scenario, everything else is a win. If you kill imp, you continue your sweep. If they kill you with Outrage, they are locked in and becomes setup fodder for The Nameless Mimiking with Spirit Shackle. They key here is Wandering Spirit. After the first Population Bomb hit, Mimikyu will swap abilities with the imposter, taking their -ate ability and gaining immunity to the subsequent Population Bomb hits. Thanks to its typing, the Imposter will be completely unable to damage you. From then, you’re free to setup 19 Acupressures and sweep. If your opponent only has one Imposter, they will have to have a Prankster Destiny Bond/Haze mon or they will just lose. 19 Acupressures is more than enough to give you +6 on all your main stats as well as Accuracy and Evasion. This means that not only is Mimiking doing one million damage with a 780 bp power trip, it’s also unkillable because it has +6 def, spdef and evasion. This is what it means when The Nameless Mimiking absorbs the power of a fallen Legendary Dragon.
They key here is Wandering Spirit. After the first Population Bomb hit, Mimikyu will swap abilities with the imposter, taking their -ate ability and gaining immunity to the subsequent Population Bomb hits.
Unfortunate doesn't even begin to describe this interaction. Fortunately for everyone, I have found an intermediary solution to this unexpected turn of events.
Cinderlord Aegwyn (Aegislash) @ Metronome
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Block
- Acupressure
- Power Trip
- Strength Sap
Please use this set temporarily while I work on improvements to the team. The workaround is simple: we run Stamina to make population do little damage. This Aegislash can setup using Strength Sap and Acupressure then sweep with Power Trip.
+6 252 Atk Metronome Aegislash-Shield Bite (860 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy: 433-510 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Yveltal also gets OHKOd from a full stack Power Trip. Now I will mention that this is only a temporary solution. The Stamina mon determines what coverage your dragons can run. It also needs a decent amount of physical bulk. There are several other options available but for now this mon should work fine.
relevant returning moves: aeroblast, sacred fire, bolt strike, blue flare, sunsteel strike, photon geyser, moongeist beam, topsy-turvy, beak blast, secret sword, psycho boost NOT USABLE MOVES: spectral thief, thousand arrows, thousand waves, core enforcer, oblivion wing, mind blown, geomancy
bitter blade and matcha gotcha now work with triage
new stuff tl;dr - electro shot is likely broken but nothing else new has too drastic an effect
new mons:
terapagos - 90.65.85.65.85.60 (BST: 450) (base forme), 95.95.110.105.110.85 (BST: 600) (1st forme; requires the tera shift ability), pure normal
don't even bother. both of these are pure normal, so you need to sack off your ability slot to get bad mega audino lol. tera shift is a misleading name; it's purely a forme changing ability between terapagos-0 and -1 (has nothing to do with the actual tera mechanic)
pecharunt - 88.88.160.88.88.88 (BST: 600), poison/ghost
this is uhh... something? scales is potentially a mdia check, as 88/160 means you don't keel over to v-create, and it "blocks dual spins"; mortal still goes off though. outside of the diancie matchup idk what this is really good for.
iron crown - 90.72.100.122.108.98 (BST: 590), steel/psychic
how many steel/psychics do they want to give us (don't bother)
iron boulder - 90.120.80.68.108.124 (BST: 590), rock/psychic
bad stats and unremarkable typing. pass.
raging bolt - 125.73.91.137.89.75 (BST: 590), electric/dragon
it's somewhat physically bulkier than mampharos, but also weaker and faster, not good traits for something usually used as a non-passive slow pivot. pass.
gouging fire - 105.115.121.65.93.91 (BST: 590), fire/dragon
reshiram exists
hydrapple - 106.80.110.120.80.44 (BST: 540), grass/dragon
these stats are actually not bad, if a little specially frail, but grass/dragon does it basically zero favours. very unlikely to see use.
archaludon - 90.105.130.125.65.85 (BST: 600)
direct downgrade to dialga-o unless you want to underspeed dialga-o but forgot you can just do your own dialga-o with teleport + de-invested speed.
new moves:
electro shot - electric, special, 130 bp, 100 acc, 16 pp; 2-turn charge move where you get a spa boost on the first turn, same as meteor beam. under rain, the attack only takes 1 turn, same as solar beam.
tera starstorm - normal, special, 120 bp, 100 acc, 8pp; no additional effect unless used by terapagos-tera, which isn't in this tier.
fickle beam - dragon, special, 80 bp, 100 acc, 8pp; deals 2x damage 30% of the time.
burning bulwark - fire, status, 16pp; protect that burns on contact.
thunder clap - electric, special, 70 bp, 100 acc, 8pp; electric special sucker punch.
mighty cleave - rock, physical, 95 bp, 100 acc, 8pp; hits through protect.
With the release of DLC we are introduced some new stuff and so...
Council Watchlist
In terms of what we are currently monitoring, in no particular order
Kartana was already a very strong threat and now with Sunsteel Strike it is extremely likely to be broken. Sunsteel Strike forces either Ability Shield or very bulky Steel-resists, most of which get blasted by a coverage option (Ho-Oh takes up to 50.4). Kartana is singled out here on the watchlist and is likely a higher priority than Sunsteel Strike due to the significant gap between it and the next abusers.
Sunsteel Strike is inherently a very strong move and even disregarding Kartana there are still decent users of the move STABwise, and other physical threats like Mega Garchomp or Kyurem-B can utilize it as a pseudo-SE coverage against Fur Coat walls.
Similarly Moongeist Beam can also prove to be too strong despite its best abusers being Flutter Mane and Spectrier. However, I expect this to be less problematic on non-STAB users compared to Sunsteel due to the special meta and the general 4MSS. There is also a chance that should something like Flutter Mane end up being problematic that it gets singled out instead of Moongeist Beam, but this will depend on how the meta shapes up.
Photon Geyser is similarly an incredible move, except this move can also apply pressure on both spectrums. Unlike the two previous moves, Photon Geyser has extremely threatening abusers like MMX, Deo-A, UNecro, even Mega Alakazam, and the strong firepower of Psychic types overall is why this is singled out over individual Psychic-types and unlikely to be affected even if MMX and Deo-A were to receive action. With these 3 moves in the meta, expect Ability Shield and Knock Off usage to be high.
Even disregarding Photon Geyser MMX and Deo-A get a few new toys to play with. Psycho Boost provides a strong Psychic-type nuke option that isn't the awkward Psystrike. Powerful coverage options like Blue Flare and Bolt Strike help further increase the threat level of Sheer Force sets. Sunsteel and Moongeist provide further options to bypass checks. These options can very likely push MMX and Deo-A over the edge and we will be keeping a very close watch on them. Other stuff like Ultra Necrozma can also be strong but they are quite notably worse so these two are the main ones.
Lumina Crash, while potentially still very powerful, would be weird to remain banned after its main abusers (above) get banned, so it is likely going to be re-looked at should MMX (and Deo-A) be banned. It could still end up to be troublesome though, with new toys like Psycho Boost to boost Psychic-types, albeit options like Deo-N and MegaZam have rather poor bulk.
Mega Diancie still remains a supreme threat as nothing new released really lessens its strength, while it also appreciates potential tools like Blue Flare. This has a very high chance of receiving action, likely through a suspect test.
Archaludon's signature move Electro Shot under rain is a effective 195 BP move that boosts SpA by one. For comparison Hadron Engine Rising Voltage is 243 BP and does not boost SpA, meaning the next turn it gets outdamaged. This move is exceptionally strong and likely will not remain for long, forcing every team to pack either Electric-immunities that are not super vulnerable to Water or Ice Scales Electric-resists.
Psychic Noise, a 75 BP 10 PP 100 acc move that applies the Heal Block condition on targets, has the potential to be strong especially considering the power level of Psychic-types even excluding MMX and Deo-A. This will need some time to observe since it is unlikely to affect Regenerator and it is unknown as of this post whether it is affected by Covert Cloak. It also only lasts 2 turns so if opponent switches in a check, gets Heal Blocked, next turn you switch out as they can't heal, you need to have an option that immediately pressures the opponent to force them to switch out instead of recovering on the turn.
Liquid Ooze for the same reasons as before DLC will be monitored due to its potential uncompetitiveness.
Take Heart is also going to be monitored as the only real additional counterplay we have received is Topsy Turvy. While this is strong and a welcome improvement over Haze, Haze itself was already rather rare as a counterplay to Take Heart. However this is likely a slightly lower priority compared to the offensive aspects.
Salt Cure is pretty much in the same state as before. It is somewhat dependent on Take Heart's status in the metagame as it does serve as a useful supporting counterplay option against the former so likely any action on this would be after Take Heart.
Other New DLC and returning stuff in BH, my opinions
These are not viable in BH either because outclassed, too low stats, or both.
Appears interesting as it is physically bulkier than Reshiram and resists Sunsteel Strike, but Dragon-typing is rather much a curse into Chomp and Kyub. Ground weakness also doesn't help.
Pecharunt's physical bulk is admirable but its typing doesn't do it favours against the physical meta. I doubt this would be very viable when compared to other Poison-type options, as SpD is valued more on Poisons for the Diancie matchup. Ice Scales technically is a check to mixed variants but Specs runs Earth Power regularly and its matchup outside of Diancie is nonexistent.
None of the new Abilities seem very useful even if they are useable outside of Terapagos.
Fickle Beam could be a great option for a Dragon-STAB alternative to options like Draco Meteor and Dragon Energy (and Clanging Scales, that move exists), depending on the double power chance and interactions (potentially 1/3). Though, it could also end up prove to be too RNG and uncompetitive, we will have to see.
Burning Bulwark shouldn't be an issue as it is just Burn Bunker but I can see this being annoying especially on ladder on random sets that deter contact physical breakers that lack Jungle Healing.
Thunderclap is cool but Electric priority hits like nothing relevant. You will absolutely see ladder running this move on Xurkitree and Mega Ampharos though.
Mighty Cleave competes directly with Diamond Storm for a reliable strong physical Rock-move on... exactly nothing because Diancie prefers Stone Axe. That being said on whatever Pokemon that is considering Diamond Storm this is an alternative since perfect accuracy. It could also be Contact for Tough Claws.
Tachyon Cutter is stronger than Revelation Dance for Steel-types but has less PP. It can also be an interesting option for Technician which might pop around due to this move.
Hard Press, Dragon Cheer, Temper Flare, Supercell Slam, Upper Hand are not viable in BH
Alluring Voice has low PP and damage compared to Moonblast/Revelation Dance/Judgment, but it can be a very funny option on Fairyceus against opposing Take Heart users by confusing them after moving second (248 Spe or neutral nature).
Malignant Chain has an annoyingly low PP which means stuff like Eternatus would still prefer one of the Sludges or Shell Side Arm. It does serve as the strongest Sheer Force coverage option if hitting Fairy-types is desired. The Toxic chance also can be interesting if it is notable.
Secret Sword came back with Keldeo. The move is still weak and affected by both FurScales but it is still the most appealing Fighting special move compared to Aura Sphere and Focus Miss. I don't see usage of this beyond Ghostceus (and mayyyyybe Spectrier but thats kind of just outclassed by Flutter) since special Fighting is non existent (you run physical every time) and nothing else really cares about the weak coverage. However, Ghostceus does appreciate it a bit since it hits stuff like Blissey and helps very slightly in Take Heart wars against Ice Scales (in a full +6/+6 war against a neutral target Judgment does 17 max while Secret Sword does 32 max).
Beak Blast is a cool reintroduction that can see some use on RegenVests or even as a decent STAB choice on like Ho-Oh and Yveltal. Combined with Burning Bulwark contact moves do become rather risky to play around without specific counter techs, though there are still sufficient physical options that are non contact
Bolt Strike and Blue Flare are incredible offensive additions, as mentioned before are likely to push certain threats over the edge. Bolt Strike is a welcoming actual physical electric move that's not locked into Magic Guard, while Blue Flare provides a strong Sheer Force special fire move and competes with Armor Cannon on other sets.
Psycho Boost finally gives us a good Psychic nuke option outside of Terrain. Though, we are in no shortage of competitive Psychic moves.
Topsy-Turvy is back and will greatly help with certain forms of setup. I anticipate this move replacing the vast majority of Haze users in the meta as Prankster Haze is practically irrelevant, lack of Icium Z, and with Substitute nonexistent and Magic Bounce setup not being a thing I don't see a reason to run Haze over this.
Aeroblast is better than Bleakwind Storm but has terrible PP, I don't think any Flying-type is using this on defensive sets and offensive Flying-types are either physical or are using Aerilate.
Bitter Blade finally got its Triage interaction fixed along with Matcha Gotcha. The latter is unlikely to be relevant as the type is just very bad, while the former could see some use in conjunction with SD on stuff like Mega Blaziken. I doubt the viability of such sets but it is almost certain these will be quite popular on ladder.
The titular star of the show. This is the most basic yet effective Palkia set we have yet it is so effective at deleting teams and Ice Scalers. The only thing that truly stops this mon is Espeed Diancie, Ice Scales Chansey, and its improof. Just play patiently and get it in vs full health teams or weak teams it never usually matters.
The Palkia improof. Not much else to say abt it. It's a fine set limited truly only by it's speed. I did try out a Zacian with like Torque and V-Create but it was pretty terrible. Completely improofed by Ho-oh. This can still dent teams pretty hard but without Webs support this is a means to an end. I want to test out Torque, V-Create, and Tidy Up. Let me know your thoughts on this set instead.
FC Ho-oh is something I haven't tried before but really enjoy. Do note while you now have a very solid MMX answer, SNR Ghosts are now a very large issue. One that I am working towards solving but haven't decided on an answer yet. Maybe it's just Take Heart Arceus.
A peculiar set but highly effective MBouncer as well as debilitator against teams without Heal Bell. Teams with Heal Bell usually slot them onto Chansey, Blissey, or Audino and all of the above struggle against MBounce. Also very good into lead Steelix teams, forcing them out and Toxicing walls.
It's FC Miraidon, it is simply FC Miraidon. Walled by itself, traps Imps, walls physical mons. It's standard because it's good. Only change I've made is adding Salt Cure to have Salt Cure on the team somewhere and by adding Spikes so I can at least have some form of Hazards.
IC Arc Poison. Absorbs Mortal Spins and scares out the user. Not much to say. Torch Song has been quite good but in most cases I'd rather have had Take Heart. After thinking about it, I made it TH just so you can maybe sit on non Stored Power Ghosts.
Take Heart
Salt Cure
(Imposter) 
(Fur Coat)
(Fur Coat) | 
(Fur Coat)
| 
| 
(Take Heart) 
(Cloak Imposter) 
(Jungle Healing) 
| 
(Fire-Immune)
(Magic Bounce in general) 
(Prankster Glare) 
.
doesn’t get OHKOd by phys mons because it’s kinda bulky. 
This one hits fc Miraidon and Ho-oh with STABs. 
When your opponent brings in their Imposter to copy your Legendary Dragon, you simply just click Outrage (apart from Kyu-B). Let’s break down the scenarios.
Photon Geyser is similarly an incredible move, except this move can also apply pressure on both spectrums. Unlike the two previous moves, Photon Geyser has extremely threatening abusers like MMX, Deo-A, UNecro, even Mega Alakazam, and the strong firepower of Psychic types overall is why this is singled out over individual Psychic-types and unlikely to be affected even if MMX and Deo-A were to receive action. With these 3 moves in the meta, expect Ability Shield and Knock Off usage to be high.
Lumina Crash, while potentially still very powerful, would be weird to remain banned after its main abusers (above) get banned, so it is likely going to be re-looked at should MMX (and Deo-A) be banned. It could still end up to be troublesome though, with new toys like Psycho Boost to boost Psychic-types, albeit options like Deo-N and MegaZam have rather poor bulk.
Archaludon's signature move Electro Shot under rain is a effective 195 BP move that boosts SpA by one. For comparison Hadron Engine Rising Voltage is 243 BP and does not boost SpA, meaning the next turn it gets outdamaged. This move is exceptionally strong and likely will not remain for long, forcing every team to pack either Electric-immunities that are not super vulnerable to Water or Ice Scales Electric-resists.
Psychic Noise, a 75 BP 10 PP 100 acc move that applies the Heal Block condition on targets, has the potential to be strong especially considering the power level of Psychic-types even excluding MMX and Deo-A. This will need some time to observe since it is unlikely to affect Regenerator and it is unknown as of this post whether it is affected by Covert Cloak. It also only lasts 2 turns so if opponent switches in a check, gets Heal Blocked, next turn you switch out as they can't heal, you need to have an option that immediately pressures the opponent to force them to switch out instead of recovering on the turn.
Liquid Ooze for the same reasons as before DLC will be monitored due to its potential uncompetitiveness.
These are not viable in BH either because outclassed, too low stats, or both.
Appears interesting as it is physically bulkier than Reshiram and resists Sunsteel Strike, but Dragon-typing is rather much a curse into Chomp and Kyub. Ground weakness also doesn't help.
Pecharunt's physical bulk is admirable but its typing doesn't do it favours against the physical meta. I doubt this would be very viable when compared to other Poison-type options, as SpD is valued more on Poisons for the Diancie matchup. Ice Scales technically is a check to mixed variants but Specs runs Earth Power regularly and its matchup outside of Diancie is nonexistent.