If you want proof, just read the OM discord on any given day for real
it's unfathomable to claim people aren't trying things on a regular basis. Speaking only for myself here, but just because I'm not team dumping tens of terrible teams weekly doesn't mean I'm not in the lab :CI think this is misinterpretation. Where did I say that the AAA council doesn't try to innovate?
If you're referring to those lines this is not what I say. I say the picture of the metagame depicted by these VRs doesn't seem to correspond to the reality of the metagame depicted by ladder stats and tournament stats. Even though that's not statistically ensured considering the lack of data for pre-home meta in OMPL XI, it's usually impossible to see a B+, 2 B and a C+ mon be part of the top10 of a competitive tournament lol. It's kind of a proof either VRs are not accurate either people are playing nonsense in tournaments. It can lead to think the council has a different perspective of the metagame about what's viable, not so viable and not viable. This has nothing to do with trying to innovate.
Here there is a generality (which are bad), it targetssome people and not directly the council. Again, this is just a fact. You're finding people that stick to this CorvMothChompScream + breaker + free pick and people that finds new and perhaps effective techs against this kind of "lazy" build (Tinkaton and Regen Rotom-W are good recent examples of that).
Misinterpretation again? I'm playing on the ladder and with quite creative teambuilders so I know there is a consistent will to try finding new effective things. But at the end of day facts also demonstrate some people aren't really trying and really stick to consistent top tier or don't believe something else could work. Also there's a difference between innovating to innovate or innovating smartly (one is much more difficult).If you want proof, just read the OM discord on any given day for real
).
Regen in a 2ac meta isnt actually that hard to break tbh, looking at last gen for an example it was never really that hard to out-damage regen cores with one of the many super strong breakers that we had (keep in mind that this was before stuff like beads of ruin so it'll be even easier to break them this gen) or if you don't want to run one of those crazy breakers for some reason you always have the option of running hazards to out-chip the regen mons on the other team. This is helped even more by the fact that so many mons lost defog this gen and so many more mons got hazards that didn't get them last gen. Others already mentioned this a couple times but the only time that regen cores could endlessly swap to recover health is when one team either lost their progress maker early, or if one of the teams wasn't built well and simply didnt have means of making progress. I personally have wanted 2AC back ever since the point when council announced that they were going to try SAC out for gen 9, it feels like we have much less creativity this gen when it comes to mons that actually work. Defensively you're restricted to like 6 mons of your choice, most of which require your regen slot, which results in a much less creative meta defensively imo.
Definitely a lot of fair points, though I will stay adamant in at least waiting for the post-home meta to balance out before we consider retesting 2AC, it seems like there could be some things that could be a bit broken with 2 mons being able to use the same ability with completely different stab, defensive types, and such. As for teambuilding with 2AC, I personally feel that it can lead to a bit too much stacking of essentially the same role, and, in my opinion, this might lead to the OM getting a bit stale.
Nearly none but I don't think this means anything considering we also have very few special walls that aren't RegenVest. The only ones that fit the bill would be Blissey (niche) and SS Garganacl (nearly dead in terms of popularity). Some extra thoughts on some of the proposals laid out by Siamato as well:
This mon has a good match-up against most of your team. You kind of just have to pray that it is not Specs or else you will have to play out of your mind and get every predictions right. If it is Scarf then you are ok-ish since you can always switch to Muk. If it is not choice then try to dance around and heal up Muk. 
The best way to win against strong wall breakers are to play aggressive and clean up with Talonflame. Try to keep Muk at high health and don't let them get in.
252 SpA Sheer Force Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
- ChainChomp Balance team by ghostlike 
- Team featuring Fluffy Lando and MGLO Talonflame by Giagantic 
- Team featuring Fluffy Polteageist and Choice Scarf SoR Slither Wing by Giagantic 
- Screens HO by Isaiah
The gapdos set isn't as heat as it was last gen since everyone has been using it recently on ladder but agility + bulk up isn't often used outside of screens since nobody is as bold as I am apparently but it has been putting in some crazy work. At first it may seem like gap wont get a ton of setup opportunities but trust me when I say that it has setup at least 1 bu and 1 agility in a huge amount of games during my climbs to the top. Fluffy moon is no longer a heat set apparently because it has its own entry in the showdown calculator but it's still super good and was heat for a long time. This set is a little different though because I don't have taunt on it but instead opted to go for eq to get extra coverage against neutral targets and against stuff like non-earth eater steels. Also weakness policy on moon is broken if you can remove the unaware mon, this set legit only loses to stuff like fluffy idef body press corv. Apparently I have been labeled clinically insane by the entire AAA discord for running no crunch on chien-pao but trust me this set has been putting in so much work, icicle crash beats stuff that runs fluffy, sacred sword beats steels like hoodra and gambit, and psychic fangs beats the dreaded quaquavel (the fakest chien-pao check in the world for this reason). Trust me this set works wonders. This is probably the least heat set on the entire team, it pretty much just does big damage, with 1 sd it gets to muscle through a ton of its checks like fluffy corv and does big damage to everything in front of it. I needed some really good priority to round out the team and after trying quite a few options I landed on enamorus-therian since its bulkier than hatterene and doesnt have all the weaknesses that comes with diancie's rock type.
click the pokemon for the team! I don't think I have to explain what Corviknight does. Intimidate stops most of the physical attackers in their tracks, Brave Bird chunks things on the switch so you can use U-Turn to get in your more threatening mons, and Defog keeps the field clear of Stealth Rocks for Enamorus-T. MGLO Lucario is still good! Aura Sphere > Focus Blast because screw you, I like hitting my opponent. Close Combat puts immense pressure on the most common RegenVesters, 2hkoing most of them. Steel Beam, especially at +2, scares out almost anything else. Big Damage with the potential to tear the entire midgame apart. Turns out, 100% accurate Thunder and Hurricane are really good! Zapdos is also a natural check to the powerful flying type offensive threats common in the tier-- Talonflame in particular hates to see this. It's hardly a permanent answer to its Galarian Counterpart, but it can switch in against non-banded sets and deal big damage. U-Turn again allows you to pivot into other threatening options. This is your main way to defeat most Corviknights in the midgame. Has great natural synergy with Corviknight and Zapdos, sponging the special hits that they can't take as well. Low Kick puts pressure on opposing Goodra-Hisui and other Steels. Thunderbolt means Corv doesn't sit in front of you for days. I firmly believe this is the best Regenvester we have, with U-Turn being an amazing momentum tool for a mon that could otherwise be a momentum drain. This is your primary win condition. Some prefer SFLO on it, but I'm quite the fan of Triage Enam-T. Priority is really nice on a team like this, and Enam's naturally good bulk means you're free to dump as much into offense as you want. This is EVed to creep 0- Hoodra and chunk it hard with Earth Power, but you can easily go full SpAtk or 36 Spe to creep base 50 mons. Draining Kiss + Earth Power hit most of the tier, and Mystical Fire hits the Corviknight that it doesn't. Fluffy Moon fits on this team as all of a defensive piece, a wallbreaker, and a win condition. Fluffy + naturally good bulk give you great defensive utility and also let you set up much easier. Dual Stab is great coverage, only missing out on Fairies, but you can run Iron Head or EQ over Dragon Claw. Fire Fang is your only real way of dealing with Corviknight, if you haven't gotten rid of it with Zapdos.
Lucario and Enam-T put a lot of pressure on Ursaluna, but if Ursa gets a BDrum up it might be lights out. Solid play is enough, most of the time, especially since Ursaluna sets lacking Heavy Slam / Gunk Shot can't hit Enam-H for good damage. Still, though, Ursaluna (and to a lesser extent, TriageDrum Chesnaught) put a lot of pressure on you from the start of a match. Gapdos' counterpart from Kanto is a relatively fake answer, especially against Band or BU sets. Enam-T will not OHKO at +0, but it will revenge with the slightest chip. Be very careful to preserve your Zapdos if you see a Gapdos on preview. If you lose Corv early, you will likely lose several other team members to this. If it's running Dazzling, then Enam-T will have to pray for an Icicle Crash miss to OHKO with Mystical Fire.
I thought you were saying that luna doesnt get those attacks lol I deleted my post right as you replied to it XD
To justify a Triage ban, the pro-ban side would need to sufficiently defend how too many individual users are problematic primarily (or solely) because of Triage. In reality, very few things are banworthy for this reason. A few relevant examples are Pokemon Like Enamorus, Flutter Mane, and Magearna, which could use Triage, but are ultimately broken for several other reasons (i.e. Enamorus running SFLO/Tinted, Flutter Mane running SFLO, Magearna running every ability in the game).
Makes total sense, thank you, I was just trying to find closure for the fact I can't use Iron Hands, cuz I really wanted to use Galvanize Body Slam with it lol :')
(After careful consideration, I have removed the title of "most boring team of all time" but it's still a very bland team)
Some small notes on why Volcanion got the placement it did (B+), at least in my view. Volcanion is undoubtedly a very strong special wallbreaker, given its raw power can 2HKO most special walls however there's a few reasons it wasn't ranked much higher. It is firstly a very linear mon with not that much use outside of just being a very big wallbreaker, although you could perhaps use it as an emergency Desoland check. Other mons higher up generally have more utility and flexible usage. Example, Quaquaval has defensive sets (+ Spin/U-turn even on some offensive sets), similarly Kingambit has many immunity sets that can provide defensive patchwork. Slither Wing does have defensive sets but doesn't matter as much, mainly it has U-turn to help support other teammates and First Impression for offensive threats. Meowscarada has U-turn again and also much better natural speed + Knock/Trick utility. Talking about this, Volcanion really suffers from 2 things:So I was recently looking at the updated viability rankings, and saw a mon that I felt was disgustingly underrated, and that was Volcanion.
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This fella feels criminal to use if you manage to get it in safely, and 99% of the times requires the opponent to sack something since Rain-boosted Steam Eruption OHKOs or 2HKOs the entire metagame. Here are some calcs to show that "common RegenVesters" can't switch in on it easily:
These are just some calcs that show how truly terrifying it can be to switch into this mon, and I believe there are only 2 counter to it: First one being RegenVest Hoodra. Arguably, it's a pretty good wall to it, but if you manage to either knock off AV or chip it down with teammates, not even Hoodra is safe. Secondly are mons with Water Absorb/Storm Drain, but these are very uncommon on all levels of play.
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Heavy Rain: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp in Heavy Rain: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail in Heavy Rain: 394-465 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Some might argue that Desolate Land users counter his since they can safely switch in on Steam Eruption, but uh oh, Earth Power blows them all up, and now it becomes a predicting game, with Volcanion winning as long as you have fire resists on your team that can salefy switch in on Iron Moth/Ceruledge/Cinderace.
This is the sample team i used for Suspect:
With that said, I would with no doubt call this the strongest special wallbreaker in the game, and if anyone wants to argue otherwise i'd be open for discussion.
(Sorry if the post is messy I'm not used to writing long posts like this)
I mean this is true, but if you have a team that's built around Volcanion and mons that can soft-check most revengekillers I still feel like Volcanion makes huge progress even if your walls get chipped down, but it still comes down to how good your opponent are at predicting things, and many people get overwhelmed easily when their RegenVester takes 60% from one hit.
Yeah, I overlooked this one a bit, but that's mostly because I often managed to kill the opponents DesoLand user early, meaning that I didn't have to predict as much and had often freeway to spam Steam Eruption, but if you have enough support from teammates (Corviknight :/) who can both clear and slow pivot into it you can still make it work, but hazards are absolutely something you have to play around.
Yes but revenge killing wall breakers have never been the problem. Even then you still need a very strong attacker to kill it :Garchomp EQ doesn't even OHKO, Gapdos has to be banded to kill, Chien and Slither(Tinted) can't kill it even with CB, etc. If you don't have a Deso mon on your team, you have to have Hoodra to safely counter it. With the brun, other RegenVesters can't take it on. Even with Deso, you are not safe. Weather Ball does way too much to the RegenVester and can 2HKO with some chip. It is kind of like Gapdos but slower but also harder to revenge.
My point was Volcanion's speed limits it more, particularly compared to other mons higher up on the VR (which I was justifying its placement mainly, I was never calling it bad, its quite good in fact). Inteleon, which functions similarly, has none of the aforementioned issues letting in Gapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon after it revenge kills, which are scary pokemon to be letting in, or even using them as fodder to go in and break like other breakers like Chien-Pao. Gapdos as an example also does not suffer from letting Arc-H/Gapdos/Hydregion free to run rampant (given Jolly is run on MGLO), has pivot, is not weak to rocks (although is prone to chip and recoil still if CB) and has extra versatility in setup options see BU + Agility sets or even Taunt and has arguably less common defensive cplay compared to Goodra-H being a very common wall for it (and DesoLand mons + RegenVest that can shuffle around). (Also personally I hate Corviknight as ""reliable"" hazard removal given how exploitable it is for good players but... maybe I'm just bad)
I can understand your point. Maybe I'm bias because I lost twice to a trapping set (Volt Absorb + fire spin to trap Hoodra btw). I don't mind Volcanion being in B+ (although I think it should be A-). You said that it can be revenge kill by many offensive threat and compared it to mons like Inteleon and Gapdos. You listed Volc's counters and said that Inteleon and Gapdos have no trouble with them and I think that is a bit unfair. I think that these three mons all have different counters and ,imo, Volcanion might be harder to revenge kill. Inteleon can be revenge by priorities (Slither or Kingambit), DesoLand mons or faster mons (Meow or Chien). Volc isn't affraid of any of them. I won't say anything about Gapdos because I believe that mon is broken and should be banned.
