Allowing NFEs in UU

[Familiar Trainer]

Why not allow all NFEs except the banned ones? Maybe someone would find a use for Poliwhirl in UU since it has a faster Hypnosis than Poliwrath and Politoed. Allowing certain NFEs and not others is silly.

I'm referring to SirSpanky's post, btw.

For all we know though, Poliwhirl with Hypnosis/Belly Drum/Waterfall/Return is overpowered for UU. Not saying it will, and it probably isn't, but you never know! This kind of stuff can't just be assumed; testing has to be done.

Also, is anybody up for doing an analysis for every Pokemon? I can only imagine how hard it must have been to do the 272 or so that are fully evolved, but what about the other 221 Pokemon? Is a Hippotatas analysis going to be done? After all, up till now analysis' have only been done for fully evolved Pokemon outside of Vigoroth iirc. Because nobody plays with NFE right now. And if NFE Pokemon don't play like their evolved form (which was why Vigoroth was done), what then?

It's just much less confusion for everybody to be honest, and I'd prefer playing the traditional way; Fully Evolved Pokemon only. Besides that, where would be draw the line between BL and UU? Why would Chansey be banned from UU if NFEs were allowed? It just a wall, after all. It's not going to be sweeping any decent teams. Sure Hypno would be out of a job, but that's life! Should we ban Cresselia from OU because it renders Uxie almost useless?

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

Why don't we just fit NFE into the tier list. So Chansey could be OU, even though nobody would use it.

 

[Murkrow]

You could probably argue it another way, but if you think DD Pupitar is too similar to Tyranitar, I think the same could be said for Electabuzz. IMO Magmar, Electabuzz, Tangela, Gligar, Misdreavus, etc. are just as "OU-lite" as Metang, Pupitar, Shelgon, etc. and so if the latter are banned, the former should be as well so as to avoid setting up arbitrary rules based on favoritism.

Also IMO, arguments about Electabuzz having higher speed than its evo and such sound biased in favor of keeping it in the metagame. To keep that distinction as a rule and rather as an arbitrary distinction, you'd almost have to keep in the game everything that is even slightly different from its evolution, i.e. Seadra (pure Water typing; Poison Point), Charmeleon (pure Fire), and Poliwhirl as X-act pointed out.

In practice, most of this won't have any impact on the metagame. Still, I feel that we should not unnecessarily restrict the use of Pokemon that few had ever considered using. I don't think that any of the supposed "OU-lite" Pokemon besides those to be banned are likely to unbalance the metagame and so fears of UU being an echo of OU strike me as unfounded.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Personally I think that classifying Pokemon based on their evolutionary stage is silly, my reasoning being that tiers for OU/UU are currently based on move pools/stats/ect, so it'd be the exact same process for categorising NFEs, albeit a somewhat lengthy process. Just because fully evolved play has been standard for a while, doesn't means its better. Horse and carriage used to be the standard once, and people called cars stupid at first, look at us now.

I understand that with all the work that would need to be done, and the analyses and such, its very tempting to say "too much work, no thanks", but in the end once the work is done I feel the competitive battling scene will be far better off, and each level of play would feel distinct and fresh.

Also if workload is that big an issue, I'd say just rush through the on-paper stages, throw together a new tier system with little though and let testing do the hard work. Then after that manual adjustments can be made if needed and voila - done. Things don't need to be perfect from day one, as long as we can get people to keep giving feedback, or statistically track it (ie. teams with Seadra keep winning in tier 4) then making the adjustments will be more of a distributed effort and less of a case of three mods here chained to a desk trying to figure it out ahead of time.

Why not allow all NFEs except the banned ones? Maybe someone would find a use for Poliwhirl in UU since it has a faster Hypnosis than Poliwrath and Politoed. Allowing certain NFEs and not others is silly.

I'm referring to SirSpanky's post, btw.

I have to agree, just because something isn't notably different doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to use it. Seel might be pretty much the same as Dewgong minus lots of stats, but its not going to be facing the same opponents Dewgong is.

 

[Deck Knight]

Technically speaking, don't most of our NFE's already have an analysis in ADV? Most of them haven't changed enough to warrant anything more than a few tweaks and/or a carbon copy of either their evolved forms' or their old ADV movesets. It isn't like "oh, we've never ever had an analysis on Electabuzz, Magmar, Dusclops, Misdreavus, Tangela, and Murkrow before."

 

[TSPhoenix]

I have to agree, many analyses will only require new EV spreads. Obviously you get things like Electabuzz being more viable as more special orientated, but that aside things shouldn't be overly tough. Plus its not like they need to be written instantly.

 

[Agahnim]

I dont think that OU lites will make UU a watered down version of OU. Take for example garchomp. Lets say we use the chain chomp set.. Now convert that to a chain bite set. Gabite may have a similar stat distribution and can run sets identical to garchomp, but it will be used very differently. Theres an entirely different threat list for NU, different counters for pokemon. Taking the chain chomp example again, the advantage of chain chomp is it is not walled by most of garchomps counters. Chain bite can be walled by quite a few things in UU. Gabite, and NFES in general just doesnt have the stats to pull off the sets their evolved counterparts can. If they are even used, they would be used very differently. IMO, the chance of UU becoming too similar to OU are very small.