Tournaments ADVPL IV Format Discussion

[Zacpz]

Free UUBL it's fun.

I've run tours in it and we got good playership, and the creativity on show was awesome.

10 slots including 3-4 ou is the wave.

 

[PlayaBeavs]

Add ADV ZU or else!

 

[Deezcastforms]

There's a lot of spirited support for a lot of tiers, to the point where I'm even starting to see 8x12 get thrown around in discord servers with the following tiers

4OU (3 Bo1, 1 Bo3)
DOU (Bo3)
Ubers
UU
RU
NU
PU
ZU
LC

With the exception of BL, which is what I've seen the least support for so far, this would get a spot for all the lower tiers that would be jockeying for slots in an 8x10 format. I would support this 8x12 format if it gets considered.

 

[Heysup]

Glad to see all the discussion in this thread so far, a lot more people interested than I thought which is great! So far there seems to be a few things reaching a consensus.

• Ou x3, ubers uu nu dou x1 all mandatory
• 8x10 is leading by far for the teams/slot count, 8x8 has some votes and literally no one wants 6 teams.
• PU seems to be the most suggested tier to add.

The options so far for the last two slots are OU4, UU2, RU, ZU, LC, BL. Personally I don't think UU2 is very appealing when it would mean cutting another tier. I'm not sure if there's enough players as well since 16 slots is a lot, but I know UU is very popular so it wouldn't surprise me. I also don't like BL as much because it's not nearly as active as the other choices. Between the rest of the choices, OU4 will guaranteed have quality players and be a good pool. LC is very popular and has little to no overlap with other tiers. ZU and RU are in very similar spots, both are newer tiers with a few successful tours and an active playerbase. I have no strong attachment to either getting in over the other, they both seem like fine picks. Overall I'd say PU > LC > OU4 > ZU = RU > UU2 > BL

Also heavily support making dou bo3, this is one of the most fast paced and volatile tiers out there + building in it is fun and not too difficult, perfect fit for bo3 imo. Edit: If OU4 is added one of the OU slots should 100% be bo3 imo. I'd support this even if we don't get OU4, a bo3 ou slot is a ton of fun.

Also also, no matter what tiers are in we'll need good managers and lots of solid players for 8x10 when the tour starts. So I hope you all spread the word however you can to get as many people as possible signing up!

Even though I think replacing UU2 is silly considering the size of the player base and I highly dislike BL as a metagame (and don't really buy into the arguments surrounding it's existence), I would argue that if you have to replace UU2 (not the right decision, but I digress) there is a sizable portion of the UU player base that also plays UUBL so I suppose, worse case scenario, if UU2 goes, those 8-16 players would likely have something to play.

I would point out that while the Adv OU player base is much higher (probably higher than all other tiers combined), unfortunately I think a large portion of the let's say higher tier players do not sign up to play ADV PL. I think the drop off on OU3 (sometimes even OU2) and the drop off on some UU2 games are quite comparable in terms of quality of play. No offense meant to anyone in particular.

Not to throw a further wrench but I also think Ubers2 would be a decent re-addition. The Adv Ubers player-base is still quite large these days. While I think it's a bit of a shit show sometimes with Thunder paralysis comparing it to the wildness of DOU, I think it seems tame.

 

[Coconut]

The tiers included here should start and end with LC and DOU. Tournaments are not built to have players explore new metagames and develop their tiers. The purpose of these tournaments is to showcase the highest level of play across the generation. Fundamentally, this belongs to LC and to a slightly lesser extent, Doubles, as they have strong bases who are actively creative and pushing the metagame outside of this tournament. They have a solid playerbase which could easily be playing something else at a high level, but elect to play the ADV versions of their respective metagames because they are complex and interesting. The other tiers in question, to be frank, have single-page post counts, resources that aren't being pushed and developed, or are desperately asking for representation in this tournament in order to...exist at all? While I'm not trying to discredit the work and effort of these dedicated players, it's apparent where the highest level of tournament play is going to be.

I can't speak on behalf of ADV Doubles, and shouldn't on behalf of ADV LC, but I'm going to anyway: ADV LC will be fine without this tournament. There's a solid money tour happening now, other small tournaments happening for the development of the tier, and a creative and unique player base that will stick by it regardless. That being said if you want the absolute best iteration of this tournament, it has to include this tier over just about every other slot in question.

 

[SOMALIA]

I have seen first hand just how active and passionate the ZU community is, especially the oldgens ZU community, The new ADV ZU metagame is diverse, fresh and more competitive than ever before. I think that increasing the number of slots to 10 is ideal as I am sure there will be a massive interest in ADVPL and I dont think that the quality of the tour will decline contrary to what some people might believe.

I think below is an ideal set-up:

- 3x OU
- 1x Ubers
- 1x UU
- 1x NU
- 1x PU
- 1x ZU
- 1x LC
- 1x DOU

 

[watermess]

Dear advanced community,

As manager of the first two advpl's and an known adv enthusiast, I was recently asked by a few prominent members of the adv zu community to vouch for their inclusion in this tournament.

From personal experience I can say that Adv ZU is an exciting metagame with powerful offensive and defensive strategies and a wide range of viable Pokémon that provides a fresh and exciting experience for players both new and familiar to the format.

Additionally, it has recently undergone an unlocking of Pokémon that were previously banned by smogon's "old tier lock" formalities, introducing a host of new strategies and Pokémon and thus a wealth of untapped creative potential for new team building opportunities that will no doubt reward enthusiasm and experimentation by new and old players alike.

The adv zu council have worked quite hard this year to create a fun and balanced tier. While I cannot promise I will have the time to engage fully with this year's advpl, I would love to see some new tiers given a chance for a spot in what can be understood as the single largest tournament to integrate engagement across adv's great diversity of formats.

Finally I hope everyone who took the time to read this has a lovely day youre all worth a million xx

 

[BP]

That being said I think ZU is a great tier with a dedicated playerbase as well (and LC as previously mentioned). I agree that PU should have a guaranteed slot, but I think the other slots should be whatever the majority of community:
A) wants to play
B) can provide a competitive player base to fill
C) generally enjoys seeing in the tournament

I think generally 8x10 is preferred for this tournament as it allows both the inclusion of LC and PU which should 100% be slotted. LC and PU fill all of these criteria pretty easily and should be added before anything else at this point. I don't believe there is really a solid way to dictate which the last slot should be as ZU, and from what I've heard, RU also meet these criteria. A 4th OU slot would probably be the most preferred though if we follow this line of thinking. I think the most optimal way to figure this out is to poll the past and present managers on what they want the final slot to be, assuming both LC and PU are guaranteed. Again, I think excluding PU and LC from this tournament is a mistake if this tournament shifts to 8X10. I think a public survey is probably the worst course of action as you'd be collecting data from users who most likely wouldn't have anything to do with ADVPL otherwise.

I still stand by my initial post and ideal formatting. However, if surveying the managers is something that does take place the ideal ballot should include the tiers below:

BL, OU4 (bo3), UU2, ZU, and RU

 

[lubloom]

ZU definitely has to be included, it feels like one of the most popular lower tiers, if not the most

 

[Glue]

I think generally 8x10 is preferred for this tournament as it allows both the inclusion of LC and PU which should 100% be slotted. LC and PU fill all of these criteria pretty easily and should be added before anything else at this point. I don't believe there is really a solid way to dictate which the last slot should be as ZU, and from what I've heard, RU also meet these criteria. A 4th OU slot would probably be the most preferred though if we follow this line of thinking. I think the most optimal way to figure this out is to poll the past and present managers on what they want the final slot to be, assuming both LC and PU are guaranteed. Again, I think excluding PU and LC from this tournament is a mistake if this tournament shifts to 8X10. I think a public survey is probably the worst course of action as you'd be collecting data from users who most likely wouldn't have anything to do with ADVPL otherwise.

I still stand by my initial post and ideal formatting. However, if surveying the managers is something that does take place the ideal ballot should include the tiers below:

BL, OU4 (bo3), UU2, ZU, and RU

I think a ballot is a good idea
3 OU, Ubers, 1 UU and NU are must slots
Out of the remaining slots for a 10 slot tour, I think PU should be included as a sixth slot.
Everything else I think has to be voted for.
We want to make sure the remaining tier slots are picked by the public. It will help decide what the final tiers should be for the tour.

4th OU Slot, BL, 2nd UU, RU, DOU, LC and ZU Should all be included as options.

I think we should have 2 separate votes on the same ballot.
One for a tier you want in the most
The other is ordering the tiers from most preferred to least preferred.
That way, we can see what people want to play and see what options are popular.

 

[Deezcastforms]

I've seen enough posts with people saying that their preferred tier "needs/has to" be included that I'm only feeling more confident that bumping it up to 8x12 is the way to go. If we run 8x10, some tiers are going to get left out, some people are going to feel screwed, and I get the feeling that some people are going to get pissed.

 

[Jirachee]

I think this thread has run its course. Remember that the goal is only to help the tour hosts make the best decision once the time comes to start this tour!

There have been a lot of very thoughtful posts in this thread, and I want to thank everyone who took the time to contribute to the discussion.

I will lock this thread in 24h. In the meantime, if you have anything more to add, make sure it adds something new to the discussion.

 

[Oathkeeper]

I think generally 8x10 is preferred for this tournament as it allows both the inclusion of LC and PU which should 100% be slotted. LC and PU fill all of these criteria pretty easily and should be added before anything else at this point. I don't believe there is really a solid way to dictate which the last slot should be as ZU, and from what I've heard, RU also meet these criteria. A 4th OU slot would probably be the most preferred though if we follow this line of thinking. I think the most optimal way to figure this out is to poll the past and present managers on what they want the final slot to be, assuming both LC and PU are guaranteed. Again, I think excluding PU and LC from this tournament is a mistake if this tournament shifts to 8X10. I think a public survey is probably the worst course of action as you'd be collecting data from users who most likely wouldn't have anything to do with ADVPL otherwise.

I still stand by my initial post and ideal formatting. However, if surveying the managers is something that does take place the ideal ballot should include the tiers below:

BL, OU4 (bo3), UU2, ZU, and RU

As someone who plays the meta often, ADV NU should definitely be in there. I'd trade one of the OU slots for an NU slot tbh.

 

[Cawil Maxamad]

As someone who plays the meta often, ADV NU should definitely be in there. I'd trade one of the OU slots for an NU slot tbh.

I find it hard to believe that NU would get left out. Right there after OU UU & Ubers

 

[goldmason]

Bit late to the party but I'd argue strongly for the inclusion of LC and ZU; I think both are awesome tiers with very dedicated playerbases (and very minimal overlap with other tiers, which is always a concern in this kinda tourney).

The change to 8 teams will be awesome, nice to see no one has really argued against it.

Agree with what BP has said, generally. I like to believe that 8x12 would be the solution that would make everyone happy tier-leadership-wise, but would probably create too much overlap between tiers that would dilute the pools for each tier. I agree with polling past and present managers and seeing what their thoughts are for sure.

Also, would argue strongly against a second UU slot, in favor of other metagames.

Optimally, I think the best 8x10 lineup would look like:
3 OU, DOU, Ubers, UU, NU, PU, ZU, and LC

Either way, very excited to see ADVPL this year!

 

[ImposterOCE]

i've mentioned this in various different cords, but i definitely believe ou should get a 4th slot given the enormous growth of adv in the past year. not only will more ou slots get more ou players in proximity with alternate tiers thus increasing popularity, it also gives options to potential breakout players that were benchwarming last year of which there definitely were some
my proposed lineup would be 4OU, DOU, Ubers, UU, NU, PU and LC
there's been lots of very valid arguments against 2UU and RU, UUBL is rlly up in the air and a lot of people supporting it are OU players who I really feel would be satisfied with another OU slot
all slots seem pretty damn locked in outside of the tenth slot being between 4OU and ZU

 

[BigFatMantis]

i've mentioned this in various different cords, but i definitely believe ou should get a 4th slot given the enormous growth of adv in the past year. not only will more ou slots get more ou players in proximity with alternate tiers thus increasing popularity, it also gives options to potential breakout players that were benchwarming last year of which there definitely were some
my proposed lineup would be 4OU, DOU, Ubers, UU, NU, PU and LC
there's been lots of very valid arguments against 2UU and RU, UUBL is rlly up in the air and a lot of people supporting it are OU players who I really feel would be satisfied with another OU slot
all slots seem pretty damn locked in outside of the tenth slot being between 4OU and ZU

I generally agree with most of this post, in that a 4th OU slot is warranted due to the growth of ADV OU playerbase in just the past year alone, nevermind the past several years altogether. Removing DOU is not really a viable option, PU is also definitely a shoo-in, and while I don't necessarily think LC is a better choice than ZU or RU based on the metagame alone, it has proven to have an extremely dedicated playerbase to the point where the support is overwhelming for its inclusion. I think both RU and ZU have good arguments for inclusion but I don't think either one necessarily has a better argument than the other, and it'd be better to just give both of those tiers another year of growth and re-evaluate next year if we want to keep the 4th OU slot again or go 3 OU at that point in favor of one of those tiers, or go 12 slots.

Alternatively, you could make the 4th OU the default and have a manager vote later if they want to change it to another tier (any of ZU/RU/UUBL/2nd UU). That's just my final thoughts on this.

 

[Hiro']

The ADV moderation team has followed this thread closely and we're glad to see everyone hyped for ADVPL IV!

Considering the amount of support it got, we decided to expand the number of teams from six to eight. Since we also want to include new established lower tiers in ADVPL, we will expand the number of slots from eight to ten, and we will use the format below:

OU
OU
OU
OU Bo3
DOU
Ubers
UU
NU
PU
LC