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Looking through B through S rank, Larvitar can realistically only set up on Pineco and Ponyta, because of so many pokemon just simply running HP Grass. If it does manage to set up, it's difficult to stop, but it's checks aren't that uncommon and it has a tough time bypassing them. If you don't set up, you're easily revenged by so many common pokemon, including all three S-ranks. After builing a team around a Larvitar sweep, I still find it lackluster and unable to do so.
I agree with this. In the beginning of the meta Larvitar was really, really scary since very few people prepared for it. However, people have now started to run HP Grass as a filler on certain Pokemon, meaning Larvitar has very few set-up baits. I will move Larvitar down to B+ soon unless someone disagree. We can then discuss if it should be either B or B+, but for now I think B+ is fine.
Has a niche in being the only mon to get Baton Pass and Calm Mind, so that's something. Works p well with ledyba + clamperl to get +2 spe, and with +1 spa clamperl just ohkos everything (even Wailmer!). Skitty also gets defense curl if you're into that kinda thing.
Ledyba Rank C+ --> Rank B-
I think that ledyba should rise up to B- rank because of its roll of being a great baton passer and having good 40/30/80 defenses. As a baton passer, ledyba is probably one of the best ones in ADV LC. If not, THE BEST. It has great moves such as substitute, agility , and swords dance that can make one of your team mates sweep when ledyba baton passses to it. Thanks to team preview not being a thing in gen 3, your opponent has no idea what ledyba is going to baton pass to. It also could actually get free set-up when diglett, one of the biggest threats in ADV LC, kills one of your team mates with a choice banded earthquake and ledyba can get up a substitute or agility unharmed, while the opponent has to waste a turn switching out. Also, ledyba is a monster at taking special hits, even super effective. Look at these calcs to see how specially bulky ledyba is.
Elekid Thunderbolt vs. Ledyba: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Wailmer Water Spout (150 BP) vs. Ledyba: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wailmer Ice Beam vs. Ledyba: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Voltorb Thunderbolt vs. Ledyba: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
You do have to risk a 31.3% OHKO by voltorb and elekid, but still, ledyba has impressive specially defensive capabilities.
Also, thanks to sitrus berry being the berry juice of ADV LC, ledyba can take a lot more hits and set up more to make your pokemon sweep. Please move up ledyba.
Edit: Also since stealth rock wasn't a move in gen 3, ledyba instantly got better since it will no longer take 50% damage from it and it doesn't need rapid spin support necessary for ledyba to baton pass to another poke and sweep.
I second Eren's nomination of Ledyba C+ --> B-. Speed boosts are a ton more valuable in this meta due to the lack of eviolite. Being able to so easily send speed to offensive monsters like cubone and azurill can lead to an easy clean sweep and Ledyba easily has the bulk to set up at almost anytime. Not only that, its immunity to arena trap means that Diglett can't grab Ledyba and have its way with it, as you can easily just switch out to a rock slide resist.
Dhaora but also for everyone, here is my Lotad analysis. http://pastebin.com/riJ2pm8y Obviously you don't have to agree, but basically Lotad has the purpose of being a good counter to Wailmer along with other water types, which makes it decent on a basic level. However, it also gets water STAB and swift swim, meaning it can abuse rain too. Although it's easily outclassed by Horsea at being a swift swim sweeper, it still makes it so that after Wailmer and friends are dead, it isn't just death fodder and still accomplish some stuff.
I second OP's nomination of Larvitar A- --> B+
Besides having a non-gimmicky counter found in Baltoy, Larvitar often lacks the ability to set up and has very bad defensive typing. Although Levi's Offensive Spike team can pave a path for Larvitar to brutally sweep, it still requires support from its team, so it fits the definition of B rank anyway. However, it is still a great set up sweeper and therefore I think that it should still be up at B+
I think Skitty is probably D-rank, but I haven't tested it enough to be sure. Will make my opinion later.
Larvitar is still one of the best dedicated win conditions available in the tier, but as others have mentioned, pretty much everything wants at least one move that can take it down by now simply because it's so threatening. This is still a testament to how influential it is, but the metagame adapting so heavily to it has really cut down on its viability, so I agree with B+.
Krubby did mention Lotad earlier, and although it being a god might be an exaggeration, it's still quite effective, enough in my opinion to warrant a rank of at least C-. It's a great utility check to Chinchou and Wailmer, two of the most prominent barriers to Rain offense; this, in conjunction with its ability to threaten opposing Rain teams as well, makes it an excellent option for Rain offense teams. It's quite weak and very frail, but it still has just enough stats to do its job.
I'm agreeing that Skitty is worthy of D rank. It's weak, slow, frail, terrible and often outright useless, but some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the game, such as Elekid, Voltorb, and Horsea, are fast special sweepers, and if it does manage to successfully pass a Calm Mind boost, it can often end the game then and there.
I'm disagreeing with Azurill because it's slow and frail; it requires a ton of support to even get a single hit off. C- can be a decent fit just because it can crush paralyzed Pokemon and is nearly impossible to switch into, but it sort of gets decimated by any offensive Pokemon that isn't paralyzed while not quite OHKOing bulkier Pokemon unless it runs Silk Scarf, which reduces its lifespan even further.
Nominating Gastly for B or B+. OP's lead set is bad and I hate it :(
I disagree with moving Gastly up. Its lack of special STAB's and all around lack of bulk makes it harder for it to pull off its annoyer set as well. It's still a really solid mon and deserves to be B-, but I feel that working around it isn't that challenging, even if it takes some work.
Also I joke when I call Lotad a god. I just find it hilarious that Aerow made a nomination for D rank without even looking at it then it turned out it had a nice and handy niche. But yeah, I think it's a C rank mon. Baltoy on the other hand I really do think should hit B- eventually, if the meta were to remain as it is. Although if Diglett is banned, one of Baltoy's big things is hurt.
I've played some more with Skitty and agree that it should be E ---> D. No matter how shitty it is, it has a niche nothing else can hit. Also I wanna see some cool sub-salac-covet stuff happen with it.
I think Azurill should be E --> D. It's all around a pretty shitty mon, but it can still KO anything that isn't bulky. Given good spike / b. pass support, it could be effective but it almost is never worth the effort.
Finally, I wanna nominate Krabby from E --> Nerd, its lack of absolutely any physical moves outside of return, HP and some awful moves like mud slap is offensive to my namesake and I am angry at its sheer shittiness in this gen.
I have now tested Azurill a lot, and I have to say it's actually surprisingly good. Even though it's very frail, Azurill is a great Baton Pass receiver. Azurill with +2 Attack and +2 Speed wrecks. Cubone may sound better, but Azurill can use Sitrus Berry, while Cubone has to use Thick Club. This means Cubone is easier to wear down. Azurill is therefore one of my favorite Baton Pass receivers, and it can do some work without Baton Pass support too, especially with Thunder Wave. I actually support Azurill to C, but C- is okay too.
Gastly:
Even though lack of special STABs really sucks, Gastly is still a great Pokemon. Gastly can deal with Diglett with some defensive investment and OHKO it with Giga Drain, while also being able to OHKO Wailmer with Thundebolt with Spikes support. Being able to deal with both Wailmer and Diglett, as well as being a great Pokemon aside from that is p huge imo. Other threats Gastly can deal with is Chinchou, Doduo (Gastly speedties, and survives Drill Peck and is able to OHKO with Thunderbolt), Wailmer with spikes support and much more. B+ imo.
Lotad:
I haven't got time to test Lotad myself yet, but, from what I have seen, C sounds fine.
ADV LC Leads (this is a work in progress, other leads might be added later)
Diglett @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
Okay so, diglett can prevent all the grounded pokemon in this meta from switching, thanks to its ability Arena Trap which means it is able to 0HKO a good portion of the metagame due to the lack of eviolite without being worried about switches. With choice band, diggy hits really hard and that's how it will guarantee the removal of your opponent's lead only if you have a great matchup.
Yeah Pineco is the ideal lead for hazard stacking teams aka offense. here you just need to set down your spikes and then explode. Rapid spin is for other pineco leads while Light screen temps a lot against special attacking leads so you can stack more spikes !
I like to use it as a lead because of its ability to taunt Rain Team leads and Pineco, and I have pretty solid answers to Wailmer and Elekid, but it definitely functions outside of leading. This Gastly makes a great partner for Dragon Dance Larvitar. It's EV'd specifically to survive Duskull's Shadow Ball and Koffing can't really touch it. In return Gastly takes their Sitrus Berry and can soften them up enough for Larvitar to clean up later. Gastly has a harder time crippling other Larvitar checks such as Baltoy or Exeggcute, which is why I use HP Bug, but it does require prior damage on Baltoy to KO at +1. Overall this Gastly set is capable of crippling many pokemon on the opposing team and specifically beats Larvitar checks.
The goal of this set is to hit like a truck and cause pressure, while supporting the rest of the team with thunder wave. Elekid is really useful during the game so just don't sacrifice it early game, it can beat many threats so it clears the way for your team sweeper. For example Elekid is done of the best larvitar allies, as it can kill bulky grass/water types with the "boltbeam" combo so larvitar can sweep without worries. However, this set is walled by magnemite but it can't do much damage.
Trapinch @ Sitrus Berry / Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 40 Atk / 160 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Quick Attack
Trapinch is just a bulkier version of diglett that can just beat elekid, diggy and pineco while living all their attacks (bar explosion, we are not kidding here oO) the spread is to tank any attack from elekid and KO with earthquake and to live other stuff too.
With its 20 speed, voltorb only ties with Elekid and diglett while outspeeding every other pokemon, which make it a pretty nice lead. it is able to beat all water types, cacnea and ties with elekid but loses to diggy. Voltorb is also a good lead for rain teams as dit can support with rain dance and have a powerful thunder that never misses.
Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Spikes
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
Cacnea is another hazard stacking lead for offense as it has the advantage of beating kabuto and taunting pineco and other leads, while stacking spikes. Encore is useful to gain free turns for spikes and destiny bond is for killing other leads once KOed.
(By Eren Yeagar !)
Baltoy @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 36 SpD / 156 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion Sunny. I think baltoy is a good ADV LC lead because for this set for baltoy, baltoy's purpose is to destroy leads(at least each lead that you mentioned so far). You may be thinking that cacnea and trapinch can easily kill it with hidden power bug/giga drain, but thanks to the amount of speed baltoy can hit, it will go first before trapinch or cacnea can kill it. Explosion easily OHKOs the threats and can make those pesky pokes go down. But you will lose baltoy too. Remember though, the main purpose of this baltoy set is not to be just a pokemon that can tank hits and help throughout the battle, but it's to get rid of leads. You can preserve baltoy though for some leads since it got great STABs to can deal a lot of damage. Rapid spin is nice to if you let something set up hazards to. Also, due to baltoy's great bulk, a can barely survive some super effective hits and use its sitrus berry to keep it alive and do some more work. ADV LC is also a great place for baltoy to shine since there's no team preview and since it has levitate, it doesn't get damage from spikes and since stealth rock wasn't a thing in ADV, baltoy has an another thing to not worry about. I do admit though that Baltoy does lose to a lot of big threats in ADV LC, but it does a good job at what it does.
Oh yeah, tell me a better baltoy ev spread that has at least 15 spe if you know one. :)
Elekid Ice Punch vs. Baltoy: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Earthquake vs. Elekid: 27-32 (128.5 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Hidden Power Ghost vs. Baltoy: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Earthquake vs. Diglett: 15-18 (88.2 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Doduo Drill Peck vs. Baltoy: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Psychic vs. Doduo: 11-13 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gastly Thief vs. Baltoy: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
Baltoy Psychic vs. Gastly: 22-26 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you think there is a lead you want to share with the ADV LC community, please make a comment with the set and explanations, so i can add it ! thanks for reading !
Baltoy @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 36 SpD / 156 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion Sunny. I think baltoy is a good ADV LC lead because for this set for baltoy, baltoy's purpose is to destroy leads(at least each lead that you mentioned so far). You may be thinking that cacnea and trapinch can easily kill it with hidden power bug/giga drain, but thanks to the amount of speed baltoy can hit, it will go first before trapinch or cacnea can kill it. Explosion easily OHKOs the threats and can make those pesky pokes go down. But you will lose baltoy too. Remember though, the main purpose of this baltoy set is not to be just a pokemon that can tank hits and help throughout the battle, but it's to get rid of leads. You can preserve baltoy though for some leads since it got great STABs to can deal a lot of damage. Rapid spin is nice to if you let something set up hazards to. Also, due to baltoy's great bulk, a can barely survive some super effective hits and use its sitrus berry to keep it alive and do some more work. ADV LC is also a great place for baltoy to shine since there's no team preview and since it has levitate, it doesn't get damage from spikes and since stealth rock wasn't a thing in ADV, baltoy has an another thing to not worry about. I do admit though that Baltoy does lose to a lot of big threats in ADV LC, but it does a good job at what it does.
Oh yeah, tell me a better baltoy ev spread that has at least 15 spe if you know one. :)
Elekid Ice Punch vs. Baltoy: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Earthquake vs. Elekid: 27-32 (128.5 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Hidden Power Ghost vs. Baltoy: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Earthquake vs. Diglett: 15-18 (88.2 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Doduo Drill Peck vs. Baltoy: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Baltoy Psychic vs. Doduo: 11-13 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gastly Thief vs. Baltoy: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
Baltoy Psychic vs. Gastly: 22-26 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oh Eren yes that's a pretty good lead tbh and i added it to the list however it struggles against many leads especially wailmer and jolly rain dance kabuto that outspeed and OHKO with waterfall but it's really great thanks!
gogo guys post other sets now!
I think that HP Ghost and Sludge Bomb on Diglett are redundant when you can just run HP Bug, as Duskull Diglett should not be staying in on, Gastly is beaten by Rock Slide and HP Bug and OHKO's everything relevant (except Baltoy) whilst Sludge Bomb fails to OHKO Exeggcute
Thunder on elekid btw is for some nice OHKOs that thunderbolt can't hit since sitrus berries are very common in ADV and can change games and it's always nice to get that OHKO. I had to sacrifice thief for thunder, but whatever. :/
Protip: Use thief on any special attacker that can learn it.
This thing can be a really powerful wallbreaker. Spam Sub (4) activate Salac Berry, and Doduo can hit hard with Flail 200 BP + STAB and 25 Spd. HP Grass can OHKO Larvitar and Rhyhorn. Dril Peck is a second STAB. You can play with Liechi Berry and Jolly Nature instead Salac Berry but Elekid and Diglett can easily revenge kill you. Snubbull can intimidate him and drop his efficaciency. Mons who can OHKO Snubull and outspeed him are really good teammates. Wailmer for exemple.
This set is a lead. Why ? Because he has good match-ups with lot of leads in the metagame.
Shadow Ball with this invest in atk always OHKO Obvious Power's Gastly. Taunt outspeed Pineco and force him to switch (He can't explode heheh). Baltoy can't do anything and he is 2HKO by Wow + Sball.
Diglett is, hum, lol. Same to trapinch. Voltorb has a little better match up. Cacnea and Elekid too.
Memento to help for a placement. He can do a good climate inducer with Rain Dance/Sunny Day instead of Wow.
Destiny Bond in an option too.
Updated the Viability Rankings again with the following changes:
Baltoy: D rank --> C rank
Lotad: C- rank --> C rank
Azurill: E rank --> C- rank
Gastly: B- rank --> B rank
I tried "the meta" with one of the Levi's team (Spikes Offense, pretty cool but it's hard to deal with Elekid without a speedtie :( ) today, and I find it pretty fun ! (I like the Pokemon pool too)
I might become a regular player if I can build my own team~.
I really like this meta because of how simple it is, yet at the same time requires a certain degree of skill and prediction you don't really find in the current XY Meta due to team preview. I'm glad you sorta brought this into the spotlight user: Aerow, I've had a a lot of fun playing this over the last few weeks. :]
What do you guys think of moving Pineco up to A? It can be tailored to beat many common leads like Wailmer and Diglett, has access to Spikes, which are great in this meta, and can provide additional support with Light Screen. Explosion does a ton of damage even uninvested, so it isn't complete setup fodder, although you do have to predict the occasional ghost. Its support capabilities are nearly unmatched, which I think warrants an increase in rank.
Ok, so I realized Aerow didn't post this replay, so I guess I'll just do it. This replay you're about to watch is the longest battle in ADV LC so far with 42 turns of STALL. Aerow and I made full-on stall teams and battled each other to see how stall can be in ADV LC and there're also really good potential movesets for pokes too.
Yeah, really fun battle! Even though I don't think we can exactly say stall is the most viable playstyle in ADV LC, it can still work decently, and is very fun to use too! I will definitely try stall versus a more standard ADV LC team when I have worked more on the team.
So this was a fight between me and Heysup, lasting a decent amount of time with plenty of different pokemon. Defensive Exeggcute is pretty cool to stop sweeps with Sleep Powder, shame about the first miss though, it would have made it a lot easier for Heysup to win.
Ponyta with Agility + Sunny Day wrecks shop if you can get both of them going like I managed too, especially when coupled with Oddish for extra sun sweeping. In hindsight I should have used Sunny Day first for boosted Fire Blast and Solarbeam straight away; Ponyta is already super fast so you don't really need the agility boost unless you know the opponent has swift swimmers or the likes.
Heysup's Makuhita would have beaten me if not for missing (again...) (train your Pokemon better).
Heysup knew that Wailmer was a great wincon, so he kept it safe, only threatening when he knew that it wouldn't die, and pulling back when it was it trouble. Wailmer has the bulk and offensive capabilities to do what it needs to do, but sometimes its speed lets it down. Keeping it out the way until you know all your opponents Pokemon, and/or get rid of checks is a good idea, allowing you to clear up at the end.
Unfortunately Oddish doesn't ohko Gastly, so I had to waste sun turns by switching to Porygon (which also let Heysup know another one of my Pokemon). This then let Wailmer have free reign (should have Thunder Waved with Porygon though, I think that was my biggest mistake) to clean up.
I thought it was a really good match, showing off a few rarely seen Pokemon and sets with overall good play from both sides.
Ground- and Rock-types are in general not especially good in ADV LC due to the popularity of Ice Beam as a coverage move, as well as a lot of Water-types. Because of Larvitar, many Pokemon has started to use HP Grass too. In contrast to newer LC metagames, Onix doesn't have access to Stealth Rock (since it doesn't exist in ADV) and Sturdy only working for OHKO-moves such as Sheer Cold. This means Onix only niche is sometimes dealing with Normal- and Flying-types, fast Taunt and able to outspeed and OHKO Chinchou with Earthquake (unless Timid Chinchou).
I also support Slashari's nomination of Pineco from A- to A. Pineco is a great Spikes setter, and can set Spikes on pretty much everything that lacks Taunt. After setting up Spikes, Pineco can also use Explosion to take down one of the opponents Pokemon, or support the team with Reflect or Light Screen. A rank sounds fine for Pineco imo.
I'm agreeing with Onix and Pineco noms; Onix moving down is long overdue, and Pineco is the most dominant lead right now for a good reason.
I also have two nominations of my own.
Rhyhorn -> C
I feel as if Rhyhorn is worse than Onix (although, to be fair, C still means they have a valid niche); at least Onix is fast enough to properly abuse its STAB Earthquake. My experiences with using Rhyhorn mostly involve being outsped and taken out by the Water- and Grass-type moves that are absolutely everywhere, and it doesn't help that Rhyhorn not only fails to OHKO bulkier Pokemon, but is often slower than them as well.
Ponyta -> B+
This one might be a bit more debatable, but I've been having a lot of success with Ponyta as a win condition; the sheer power of a Sunny Day-boosted Fire Blast allows Ponyta to OHKO even Porygon the majority of the time after Spikes, and Solar Beam massacres Water-types looking to wall it otherwise. It helps that most Fire- and Dragon-types are pretty much irrelevant, meaning Fire and Grass provide adequate coverage, allowing Ponyta to run Substitute to block status and beat Diglett or Agility to outrun the 20 speed tier mons for even more ridiculous sweeping potential.
I agree with moving down Rhyhorn as well as moving up Ponyta. I'm also nominating Porygon from A --> A+. Porygon is just so good right now, being able to deal with Diglett, Elekid, Wailmer, Chinchou, Ponyta, Staryu, and many more. Porygon can basically deal with almost all S- and A-ranks, and can also be kept healthy throughout the match thanks to Recycle or Recover.
I agree with moving down Rhyhorn as well as moving up Ponyta. I'm also nominating Porygon from A --> A+. Porygon is just so good right now, being able to deal with Diglett, Elekid, Wailmer, Chinchou, Ponyta, Staryu, and many more. Porygon can basically deal with almost all S- and A-ranks, and can also be kept healthy throughout the match thanks to Recycle or Recover.
I totally agree with this. Porygon's bulk and wide movepool is no laughing matter. With Thunder Wave, it can hinder many threats and since most pokes don't OHKO porygon, porygon can restore HP with its sitrus berry and recycle it and stall your opponent out. Plus, when your opponent is paralyzed, Porygon can hit hard with a Thunderbolt or Ice Beam due to Porygon's very good special attack. Porygon is a great teammate to have in ADV LC. Move it up to A+ rank.
