Metagame 350 Cup

[Hiusi guy]

Arena Trap should be unbanned in 350 Cup

Counterpoint: No, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and doesn't help the tier in any positive way. As well your reasonings don't actually prove much.

Compress File

dealing subpar damage, extremely low bulk,

Defensive pivots and entry hazards exist. Hazards help remedy it's damage "problem", with defensive pivots or pivot move users in general helping it get on the field to most likely to take a ko or chunk a mon for free.

In a metagame where all stats, including HP, are doubled, Final Gambit becomes borderline useless to use

This was a good point until you said final gambit, like who tf used it before anyways????

Diglett and Dugtrio both die to priority

Again, defensive pivots. They don't have to stay in and take every attack unlike their foes, plus in a hail mary situation you still have sucker punch.

Being able to trap stall Pokemon does not matter at all if your Pokemon are slower.

Well then use a choice band or rest talk set, it has the bulk to survive just about any defensive mons hits without investment and then just kill them with very little support because of it's fuckin 200 Atk. It also learns quick attack and first impression so it can deal with some offensive mons as well, but it's not like it can't have defensive pivots like diglett.

Terastalization also allows Pokemon to mitigate the threat of being trapped and to cripple the opposing Pokemon.

It also helps them by letting them pick and choose what they want to trap and remove, plus there are like 3 teras that are fully helpful against them, being Ghost, Flying, and Grass. The first 2 because you can now switch with Grass being the only other option to resist their eqs. Everything else is neutral and can be removed by them or by a teammate after they effectively force them to tera.

The Arena Trappers are walled by Slowpoke, Shroomish, Hippopotas, and Sandygast, and they lose to many offensive Pokemon.

Offensive and Defensive pivots again , they don't have to be a one man army in order to be broken

They are not a threat to the meta whatsoever.

Yeah I agree... Only because we don't even have a meta yet due to the lack of ladder

Also if you say items as a solution than that further proves the trapping isn't something the tier wants/needs

TL;DR: You looked at all the negatives and nothing else, which makes your claims fall flat quickly

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Counterpoint: No, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and doesn't help the tier in any positive way. As well your reasonings don't actually prove much.

Defensive pivots and entry hazards exist. Hazards help remedy it's damage "problem", with defensive pivots or pivot move users in general helping it get on the field to most likely to take a ko or chunk a mon for free.
Again, defensive pivots. They don't have to stay in and take every attack unlike their foes, plus in a hail mary situation you still have sucker punch.

Well then use a choice band or rest talk set, it has the bulk to survive just about any defensive mons hits without investment and then just kill them with very little support because of it's fuckin 200 Atk. It also learns quick attack and first impression so it can deal with some offensive mons as well, but it's not like it can't have defensive pivots like diglett.

It also helps them by letting them pick and choose what they want to trap and remove, plus there are like 3 teras that are fully helpful against them, being Ghost, Flying, and Grass. The first 2 because you can now switch with Grass being the only other option to resist their eqs. Everything else is neutral and can be removed by them or by a teammate after they effectively force them to tera.

Trapping is not inherently uncompetitive when the users are terrible. As I said before, Diglett and Dugtrio deal so negligible damage that many stall Pokemon could easily outheal. Running Sucker Punch just to have a low chance to eliminate priority is basically a waste of a moveslot as Diglett is already one of the fastest Pokemon in the meta.
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 96-114 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 84-100 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
If you use resttalk on Trapinch you lose to Shroomish and Slowpoke. Trapinch gets no stat-boosting moves whatsoever.
Furthermore, after eliminating a Pokemon, both Trapinch and Diglett become free setup fodder.

However, given your analysis, I will modify my original request: Arena Trap should be unbanned and Trapinch should be banned.

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

You reminded me that this tier exists. Unfortunately, you're wrong.
Trapping is uncompetitive in general, and the two mons that get access to it are nowhere near as helpless as you mentioned.

Diglett is one of the fastest mons in the meta, with 190 base speed plus Earthquake and Stone Edges coming off an admittedly mediocre 110 base attack. However, that is more than enough for its job, which is just to pick off offensive threats slower than it, which is almost all of the tier. It can easily make up for power with a Choice Band, not needing to predict due to trapping.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Sure its slow. Too bad I can click First Impression. Its also just bulky enough to live one neutral attack and trade.
252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 309-364 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 345-406 (132.1 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Terastalization also allows Pokemon to mitigate the threat of being trapped and to cripple the opposing Pokemon.

What Tera actually does is allow them to trap whatever they want, and use Tera to win the 1v1. Also, they can just as easily scout and bait out Tera with protect.

The Arena Trappers are walled by Slowpoke, Shroomish, Hippopotas, and Sandygast, and they lose to many offensive Pokemon.

The entire point of trapping is that it allows you to bypass your conventional counters and just force 1v1s on the things you beat. The only way for offensive mons to beat them is 1) Have priority for Diglett and supereffective coverage for Trapinch 2)Not be weak to ground and 3)Have enough health to actually survive an attack, with the threshold for an OHKO being around 85% for most offensive mons, meaning that they can easily be chipped into range.

The only Pokemon they are beating are Magnemite, Mareanie, and Glimmet.

If you are only listing mons weak to ground, you forgot Fuecoco and Pawniard. See my previous points about Tera letting them beat whatever they want, and neutral Earthquakes OHKOing stuff with slight clip, and whatever coverage they can run.

Edit: The follow up two posts didn't load and I didn't see them. Hiusi Guy made some of the same points I did. It still doesn't matter how much damage Diglett do to defensive walls bc thats not the targets. Any choice locked mon can become setup fodder, at least those has to be piloted well to actually make progress.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

You reminded me that this tier exists. Unfortunately, you're wrong.
Trapping is uncompetitive in general, and the two mons that get access to it are nowhere near as helpless as you mentioned.

Diglett is one of the fastest mons in the meta, with 190 base speed plus Earthquake and Stone Edges coming off an admittedly mediocre 110 base attack. However, that is more than enough for its job, which is just to pick off offensive threats slower than it, which is almost all of the tier. It can easily make up for power with a Choice Band, not needing to predict due to trapping.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Sure its slow. Too bad I can click First Impression. Its also just bulky enough to live one neutral attack and trade.
252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 309-364 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 345-406 (132.1 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meditite defeats both Diglett and Trapinch. Meditite gets Bullet Punch, which has a much higher chance to OHKO Diglett than Diglett does to Meditite, and Choice Banded Close Combat easily OHKOs Trapinch. I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 164-193 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 463-546 (144.2 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What Tera actually does is allow them to trap whatever they want, and use Tera to win the 1v1. Also, they can just as easily scout and bait out Tera with protect.

The entire point of trapping is that it allows you to bypass your conventional counters and just force 1v1s on the things you beat. The only way for offensive mons to beat them is 1) Have priority for Diglett and supereffective coverage for Trapinch 2)Not be weak to ground and 3)Have enough health to actually survive an attack, with the threshold for an OHKO being around 85% for most offensive mons, meaning that they can easily be chipped into range.

Many offensive Pokemon can easily live one relatively weak Earthquake from Diglett and then OHKO it back.
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 290-344 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The threshold for OHKO is not 85%. Both Grimer-Alola and Pawniard usually run some sort of bulk anyways.
Pawniard also gets Sucker Punch.
I don't consider baiting Terastalization to be broken, since whatever you switch out to likely has to suffer from a high-damage move.

If you are only listing mons weak to ground, you forgot Fuecoco and Pawniard. See my previous points about Tera letting them beat whatever they want, and neutral Earthquakes OHKOing stuff with slight clip, and whatever coverage they can run.

Sucker Punch can easily OHKO a resisting Diglett with Terastalization. I did forget Fuecoco, though.
252+ Atk Tera Dark Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Diglett: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
What exactly is Terastalization allowing Diglett and Trapinch to beat?

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

Meditite defeats both Diglett and Trapinch. Meditite gets Bullet Punch, which has a much higher chance to OHKO Diglett than Diglett does to Meditite, and Choice Banded Close Combat easily OHKOs Trapinch. I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

This isn't sudden death where the mons are locked in a 1v1 and the first one to KO the other wins. The only mon that can force that situation is the trapper. Sure Meditite wins if its a 1v1 and it gets to click Choice Banded Bullet Punch. Does that mean you're never going to lock yourself into any other move for fear of getting revenge killed? Is your best play against Corviknight to click Bullet Punch in case I U-turn and trap you? Similarly, are you really going to click Close Combat into Corv if Trapinch OHKOs you with First Impression after the defense drop? Trapping forces these lose lose scenerios and takes away the ability to outplay.

Many offensive Pokemon can easily live one relatively weak Earthquake from Diglett and then OHKO it back.
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 290-344 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The threshold for OHKO is not 85%. Both Grimer-Alola and Pawniard usually run some sort of bulk anyways.

You seem to have conveniently left out an adamant nature (which it can run due to already having an insane speed) and Choice Band, which it can run if it's not running protect due to not needing to predict.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 356-422 (110.9 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 476-564 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's not even 85% threshold, it's outright OHKOs.

I don't consider baiting Terastalization to be broken, since whatever you switch out to likely has to suffer from a high-damage move.

It's not just baiting Tera, the options are you Tera or you die. "Suffering a high damage move" is meaningless because any breaker can Tera and inflict a "high damage move" on anything, even outside of the trapping. Thats why defensive core are a thing.

Sucker Punch can easily OHKO a resisting Diglett with Terastalization. I did forget Fuecoco, though.
252+ Atk Tera Dark Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Diglett: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
What exactly is Terastalization allowing Diglett and Trapinch to beat?

Not every mon has priority and the power to OHKO. If my team is weak to Pawniard, I replace Diglett with Trapinch and I win the 1v1 anyway. Lets go to the CB Meditite vs Trapinch example. I Tera Ghost and I win immediately. I'm Tera Steel Sd Sub Diglett and Shroomish is setup fodder and I win on the spot. Are you just never going to send in Shroomish? Or I'm Tera Ghost Diglett and force you to never click Banded Fighting moves. Tera lets you get super effective coverage or immunity for whatever your team needs to beat.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I forfeit my argument.
Someone else can take over if they wish to do so.