Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Nalei]

MaceMaster
A) irrelevant, as stated above.
B) beating other top mons means nothing. Hydreigon beats a big chunk of all ubers but you don't see it becoming an uber now do you?

That's a horrible comparison. Ubers is a 6v6 metagame, meaning that although your Hydreigon might be able to force a PDon out, your opponent will simply switch into their Hydreigon counter, making Hydreigon ineffective. 1v1 is, well, a 1v1 metagame, meaning that you can't just switch out, if Gyarados beats 2/3 of your team, it can apply a lot of pressure. As for point A, if you say that 1v1 is mostly bad players and that Mega Gyarados is ineffective against good players because it's overprepared for... this is blatantly false. As with any metagame, most of the playerbase is "bad," but you'll generally face players that are about your skill level thanks the elo system (this isn't always true in 1v1 due to the smaller player base, but I find that at least 1/3 of the people I face on the ladder are good). As for Gyarados being overprepared for... it's extremely hard to prepare for as it only has a couple hard counters (Tapu Koko, Air Balloon Magnezone, Air Balloon Magearna, Charm Mega Venusaur and Specs Primarina), and most of them lose if they get flinched once.

 

[Felucia]

MaceMaster
A) irrelevant, as stated above.
B) beating other top mons means nothing. Hydreigon beats a big chunk of all ubers but you don't see it becoming an uber now do you?

I have something to say about point B here.

The fact that these Pokémon are top usage even though Gyarados beats them also shows the value of those Pokémon in the metagame, regardless of the presence of Gyarados in the metagame these Pokémon will stay strong and get usage. Therefore their worth must surpass their fear of Gyarados and with that reasoning you could indeed say that Gyarados beating top Pokémon is a poor argument.


My point:
Good question, I forgot

Before the news of new megas being brought back, I definitely felt that Mega Gyarados deserved to be suspected due to just how much it warps the meta around it. However, now that we know that the other megas are coming back, with Mega Mawile being released later this month (which was one of the more important checks to Mega Gyarados last generation) , I believe we should at least wait until it's release to see if it will be as big of an issue (which it still could be don't get me wrong).

In my head that reasoning goes in reverse: Apparently there could be an unbalance in the metagame right now, I think it'd be better to attempt to solve that before the introduction of Mawile. Because if this problem persists after the introduction of Mawile the argument "let's wait until things are settled" might get the upper hand.
Also I'd like to point out that predictions of the future aren't valid reasoning. Mostly to weaken my own comment though.

(Done editing)

 

[The Official Glyx]

That's a horrible comparison. Ubers is a 6v6 metagame, meaning that although your Hydreigon might be able to force a PDon out, your opponent will simply switch into their Hydreigon counter, making Hydreigon ineffective. 1v1 is, well, a 1v1 metagame, meaning that you can't just switch out, if Gyarados beats 2/3 of your team, it can apply a lot of pressure. As for point A, if you say that 1v1 is mostly bad players and that Mega Gyarados is ineffective against good players because it's overprepared for... this is blatantly false. As with any metagame, most of the playerbase is "bad," but you'll generally face players that are about your skill level thanks the elo system (this isn't always true in 1v1 due to the smaller player base, but I find that at least 1/3 of the people I face on the ladder are good). As for Gyarados being overprepared for... it's extremely hard to prepare for as it only has a couple hard counters (Tapu Koko, Air Balloon Magnezone, Air Balloon Magearna, Charm Mega Venusaur and Specs Primarina), and most of them lose if they get flinched once.

I wasn't comparing tiers at all, I was bringing up the point that anti-meta Pokemon will always seem to be good against the meta, but will never be banned in those metas, a more relevant example could be Heatran in gen 6 1v1, back when Steel types ran the meta and it threatened every S rank and most A ranks, minus Gyarados.

The presence of better players is usually based on the time of day, which is why Xstatic always seems to climb back up to the top so quickly, because he knows to battle only when all the better players are gone.

There are plenty of Gyarados counters and threats, even if they do have to rely on not being the unlucky 1/5 chance of flinching. Don't forget my boi Porygon-Z

 

[Felucia]

The presence of better players is usually based on the time of day, which is why Xstatic always seems to climb back up to the top so quickly, because he knows to battle only when all the better players are gone.

Everything about this is at best irrelevant. I see this as a personal offense seeing as I always play around the time XSTATIC is online. You basically just called everyone who ever faced XSTATIC bad which I find unacceptable. But please ignore me and go on with your discussion

 

[DEG]

I would like this discussion to continue moving forward and not backward, I want to see both side of arguments before and after the arrival of Mega Mawile so don't let that be a wall to stop the discussion. Also please do not attack others directly or indirectly. Whatever happens I don't really think that Mega Gyarados winning and being seen broken by the userbase justifies that the players are bad. How can someone form even such argument, we all have lost to Mega Gyarados, built teams and optimized them to beat Mega Gyarados and now we're all called bad because we lost to one before?

Secondly, saying that Mega Gyarados doesn't have lot of checks because it's only in S rank is a kind of twisted way of thinking about it. We can take by example Mega Charizard X, it is an S-rank Pokemon but isn't considered as broken. Because while being force in the 1v1 metagame it can be beaten by a handful of Pokemon in one side and keep in check a lot of Pokemon in another allowing it to act as a balance. It isn't as unpredictable as other Pokemon which gives it a plus at being healthy. Anyways it's about Mega Gyarados now so I won't be talking about Mega Charizard X anymore.

It is true that Mega Gyarados is unpredictable, and looking at the Banning Philosophy that shouldn't be a strong factor to justify it being broken. But what people seem to say and see that this isn't the only trait that makes Mega Gyarados a Pokemon deserving a ban, it's the combination of different characteristics. It's typing both prior and after Mega Evolving gives it many opportunity. The Water type is an amazing offensive typing, specially in 1v1 where there's not a lot of Grass-type Pokemon while the secondary typing may vary on the user's own will allowing it toy with its weaknesses. Additionally, its ability in Intimidate combined with Mold Breaker is really powerful. And like it has been said before, Mold Breaker ISN'T only for Lvl 1 Pokemon, it beats a lot of relevant Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame such as Crustle, Donphan, Dragonite which can see their viability boost.

Using the argument, if Mega Gyarados gets banned, Mega Charizard X might be too powerful shouldn't be used. If Mega Gyarados indeed gets the boot that gives breathing room to other threats that may or may not hurt Mega Charizard X viability. I've said what I wanted, my opinion is something that has been repeated and seems useless to say again and I resumed in above. With this, I'm out!

Happy Discussion!

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

Just a few quick comments

only has a couple hard counters ... Air Balloon Magnezone, ...

Air Balloon Magnezone doesn't beat EQ + (whatever attack other than Outrage) Mega Gyarados (which is pretty common), fact check before stating stuff please.

Before the news of new megas being brought back, I definitely felt that Mega Gyarados deserved to be suspected due to just how much it warps the meta around it. However, now that we know that the other megas are coming back, with Mega Mawile being released later this month (which was one of the more important checks to Mega Gyarados last generation) , I believe we should at least wait until it's release to see if it will be as big of an issue (which it still could be don't get me wrong).

It's funny how a poke suddenly becomes broken once some of the OP pokes that beat it aren't usable any more, almost as if it already was broken even when those pokes were usable...

Now I'm not saying that MGyara necessarily is broken, but this just proves my point from the previous thread. I suggested that a small number of pokes were / might be broken and that the only reason they aren't considered broken by the general opinion was because they beat each other, and the response I got was "no, these pokes are the OU pokes of the meta, and beat each other, meaning they're not broken!".

One could say the same thing about Choice. You no longer fear being locked because your opponent can't switch, etc.

Please stop saying "mechanics are broken" - it doesn't prove anything and I'm not banning mechanics... If you feel a Z-Crystal is broken, post it with calcs to back it up. If you feel all Z-Crystals are broken, post them all with calcs to back them up.

Except that there is still a drawback to using choice, which is that you're choice locked, which can very much be exploited/punished in 1v1, and it can be used on all 6 pokemon in 6v6. Z's drawback, which is that you can only use it once per battle is extremely diminished in 1v1, that's a clear difference. Also regarding "If you feel a Z-Crystal is broken, post it with calcs to back it up. If you feel all Z-Crystals are broken, post them all with calcs to back them up.", if one Z-crystal is broken then they all are, because as I said, this isn't monotype, if a Z-crystal is broken it isn't because of its type, but because of the other stuff I mentioned. I might post calcs eventually, but wanted to get this out of the way for now.

In any case, keep in mind that Z is skewing the entire meta, and that whatever is/isn't broken right now, might not be without Z.

 

[Nalei]

Air Balloon Magnezone doesn't beat EQ + (whatever attack other than Outrage) Mega Gyarados (which is pretty common), fact check before stating stuff please.

Air Balloon Magnezone (almost) always carries Electroweb, allowing it to beat any variant of Mega Gyarados.

Except that there is still a drawback to using choice, which is that you're choice locked, which can very much be exploited/punished in 1v1, and it can be used on all 6 pokemon in 6v6. Z's drawback, which is that you can only use it once per battle is extremely diminished in 1v1, that's a clear difference. Also regarding "If you feel a Z-Crystal is broken, post it with calcs to back it up. If you feel all Z-Crystals are broken, post them all with calcs to back them up.", if one Z-crystal is broken then they all are, because as I said, this isn't monotype, if a Z-crystal is broken it isn't because of its type, but because of the other stuff I mentioned. I might post calcs eventually, but wanted to get this out of the way for now.

In any case, keep in mind that Z is skewing the entire meta, and that whatever is/isn't broken right now, might not be without Z.

Although the drawback of Z-Crystals is greatly diminished in 1v1, one could say the same thing about choice items. The biggest drawback of them in 6v6 is that they make use easy to revenge kill as you get locked in, but in 1v1, you'll only be attacking a single target for the whole battle. One flaw that Z-Moves have even in 1v1 is that a well placed Protect or Substitute can fuck them up. "if a Z-crystal is broken it isn't because of its type, but because of the other stuff I mentioned." Just false. Although a one time super powerful attack is the main incentive for using Z-moves, it isn't the only one. Typing plays a massive role. To say that Buginium-Z, for example is broken, is just nonsense

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

Air Balloon Magnezone (almost) always carries Electroweb, allowing it to beat any variant of Mega Gyarados.

For now maybe, because of how people view MGyara probably, not to mention that the magnezone would also have to have a speed investment to be able to outspeed, which in combination with having to replace a move with electroweb results in what my opinion is a suboptimal set. Edit: To clarify, I use Air Balloon Magnezone without Electroweb, which is why I'm said it isn't a hard counter.

Although the drawback of Z-Crystals is greatly diminished in 1v1, one could say the same thing about choice items. The biggest drawback of them in 6v6 is that they make use easy to revenge kill as you get locked in, but in 1v1, you'll only be attacking a single target for the whole battle. One flaw that Z-Moves have even in 1v1 is that a well placed Protect or Substitute can fuck them up. "if a Z-crystal is broken it isn't because of its type, but because of the other stuff I mentioned." Just false. Although a one time super powerful attack is the main incentive for using Z-moves, it isn't the only one. Typing plays a massive role. To say that Buginium-Z, for example is broken, is just nonsense

That same flaw also exists in 6v6, and is such a rare case in 1v1 that it should barely be considered, even more so now that megas get their new speed turn 1, which reduces protect usage. Not to mention the uncertainty and unreliability that emerges in the cases when one or both players know that the other has protect or z. Edit: In any case, choice items have an acceptable enough drawback in 1v1, while z-crystals don't.
By virtue that it does what it does, it isn't nonsense to suggest that it's broken. Just because some of the most used pokes resist the Bug type doesn't mean that Buginium-Z does what it does any differently than the other Z crystals. It just means that it will do less damage against the pokes that resist the Bug type, which shouldn't hold any relevance to balancing unless you're saying screw the pokes that don't resist Bug. You could also mean that no currently strong popular poke has X-type to use X-type Z-crystal with, which again shouldn't hold relevance because I'm arguing that Z is broken for what it is and does nonetheless, regardless of how popular a certain type crystal is.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Using the argument, if Mega Gyarados gets banned, Mega Charizard X might be too powerful shouldn't be used. If Mega Gyarados indeed gets the boot that gives breathing room to other threats that may or may not hurt Mega Charizard X viability. I've said what I wanted, my opinion is something that has been repeated and seems useless to say again and I resumed in above. With this, I'm out!

Happy Discussion!

This part of DEG's response got me thinking about what 1v1 would be like without Gyarados-Mega, and it made me realize that, if it got banned, we'd be going in the same circle over and over of banning what the current most powerful poke in 1v1 is, starting with Gyarados, then moving onto Kyurem-Black or the Charizards and so on until we eventually get to a point where either nobody is left playing anymore or we reach what a consensus of informed opinions would consider "balanced" (at least until new factors get added to the games that shake things up, ie Mega Mawile coming back, other Megas, new games, new pokemon/abilities/moves, etc).

So the question we have to ask each other is "What constitutes being balanced in 1v1?". Since there is no other format like 1v1 on Showdown, the task is really left up to us to determine why change occurs in 1v1, as well as the changes themselves in addition.

 

[fsk]

I agree that Gyarados holding Mega Stone is one of the most viable mons (maybe just "the most" suits it better right now). But I haven't convinced myself on neither the side of ban nor no-ban.

Up to now, there are many good points describing how powerful this mon is, and how much extra work each team-builder put in to prepare for it. Indeed, the complaint about it is a complicated combination of different characteristics, the typing, the ability, the sets and move-pools.
So here, I would like to make a small list of pokemons that can beat it in almost all circumstances. (It has to be incomplete, but I'm trying) These are, in my view, commonly viable mons in the meta. And maybe the fact that this list being short can be used as an argument of pro-ban, I would like to keep neutral about this issue for now as the standard of a balanced 1v1 metagame is something I still needs to think about. Indeed, many sets today are EVed to beat Gyarados-Mega specifically, but that is how 1V1 works since gen 6, so I am still hesitating about whether Gyarados is pushed over the edge in gen 7.

The following calc is taking into account of the most moves MGyarados brings: DD, Waterfall, Outrage, Taunt, Crunch, and EQ when tanking its hit; Considering the highest defense investment that is common enough: 252HP in bulk, or ~100HP ~100 Def combined, so we are calculating it as 252HP, 100 Def, which is over preparing in some way.

1. Tapu Koko 100% win
Either Z-Thunder or Z-Wild Charge set of Koko OHKO Gyarados-mega for whatever spread Gyarados is running.

2. Porygon-Z
Spec 90%
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The Timid Spec Porygon-Z outspeeds all kinds of Gyarados and OHKO it unless heavily SpD invested, which is really uncommon. Considering the possible miss, take it as a 90% win.

The bulky scarf set of Elo Bandit usually works, but it depends on a not very favorable roll if the opposing Gyarados has a relatively high HP invest, plus possible flinch from waterfall.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

3. Genesect
Spec 80%
While being able to 2HKO the most bulky set of Gyarados-mega, it can also survive a +1 STAB with some prepared investment. The win rate is around 80% considering the possible flinch.

200+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 256-303 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4. Magearna
With Choice spec, it has a decent chance of OHKO most of the gyarados sets.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 349-412 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 349-412 (98 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
It can also tolerates a flinch from waterfall if Gyarados does not bring EQ.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 133-157 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The win rate depends on the spread, and possible thunderbolt mind game win.

5. Air Balloon Magnezone 76%
Air Balloon Magnezone uses Electroweb on turn 1 can win all variants of Mega Gyarados except when getting flinched from waterfall and then EQ to death, or electroweb misses. This is around 76% win rate.
It survives a +1 STAB, and Electroweb+Thunderbolt KOs the most viable bulky set.
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Electroweb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

6. Water-Fairy Type: Primarina and Tapu Fini resists both stab of Mgyara and are immune to outrage. While EQ will take more turns to take these mons down, Fairy Stab almost always KO Gyarados first.

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Tapu Fini in Misty Terrain: 133-157 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
192+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Tapu Fini: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
45.6% + 53.4% < 100% while with Nature Madness+ Moonblast 3HKO whatever the play is, and 2HKO if Gyarados Mega Evolve right after DD.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

7. Pinsir-Mega 72%
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Gyarados-Mega: 424-501 (107.6 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While outspeeding the fastest Gyarados-Mega, OHKO after a sword dance (even it is not hyper cutter) and being able to tank a hit of STAB from max attack Gyarados-Mega. Considering the 10% miss and possible flinch of waterfall, this is also around a 72% win rate.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 210-247 (77.4 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

8. Specificically prepared Metagross-Mega
200HP, 76+Def, 106 Atk, 128 Speed (to outspeed maxspeed Gyarados)
Before mega evolution, Metagross is immune to Intimidate. With sufficient bulk invest to Tank a +1 Crunch, and being able to 2HKO with Thunder Punch almost all the time.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 200 HP / 76+ Def Metagross-Mega: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
106 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

8. Physically Bulky Grass Type has a high win rate in general, but may lose to double flinches.
Venusaur-Mega, Ferrothorn (possibly lose to Taunt + EQ if no Power Whip), Kartana, Tapu Bulu, Whimsicott with Giga Drain/Moonblast.

9. Z-reflect
While Fast and Fragile Specs Tapu Lele goes into 50/50 of picking thunderbolt or Moonblast turn 1 (if picked wrong it cannot OHKO and can be possibly OHKO back)
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The bulky Z-reflect varient, however, unless double flinched, would beat Gyarados-Mega.
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. +1 200 HP / 56 Def Tapu Lele through Reflect: 88-104 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

-----
Common but not guaranteed counters:

10. Bulky Zard-X when facing Gyarados really depends on the spread, the movepool, AND the play: whether the bulky Zard-X outspeeds and avoid getting Taunted, whether Mgyara has EQ, and the consequent set-up mind games.
facing 248HP 248 Def+ Zard-X but Gyara wins with EQ
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-530584625
Facing 248 HP 100+ Def Zard-X but Gyara wins with EQ
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-530585907

11. Chansey
Counter Chansey wins more than usual, while no-counter set fearing Taunt, 4HKO Gyarados with Seiss Toss while possibly 3HKOed by Waterfall.

Z-charm Umbreon can be beaten in an "waterfall then Taunt then waterfall twice" fashion. Flinch is not necessary if Umbreon is the common Bold 68 Def 248 HP spread, and even there is more investment in defense, there is a great possibility of getting one flinch.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-530568912
Z-Charm Blissey goes into a mind game after turn 1 waterfall & Z-charmed. Taunt vs Soft Boil...If straight out using Seiss Toss and Waterfall, M Gyarados has a chance to win, but Blissey dose have a certain advantage in this mindgame, and Counter Blissey set usually wins.

 

[The Official Glyx]

2. Porygon-Z
Spec 90%
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The Timid Spec Porygon-Z outspeeds all kinds of Gyarados and OHKO it unless heavily SpD invested, which is really uncommon. Considering the possible miss, take it as a 90% win.

The bulky scarf set of Elo Bandit usually works, but it depends on a not very favorable roll if the opposing Gyarados has a relatively high HP invest, plus possible flinch from waterfall.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Uproar vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

Why do people not realize that a normal scarf Porygon-Z with Uproar/Tbolt basically just wins? ;-; It's like, the most reliable Gyarados counter without being a niche or less viable mon

252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (The most common gyarados spread that runs hp investment or special bulk of any kind, according to usage stats)

 

[fsk]

Why do people not realize that a normal scarf Porygon-Z with Uproar/Tbolt basically just wins? ;-; It's like, the most reliable Gyarados counter without being a niche or less viable mon

252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (The most common gyarados spread that runs hp investment or special bulk of any kind, according to usage stats)

Yoo Glyx :)

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 300-354 (96.4 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Jolly Gyarados outspeeds ur modest scarf PZ after DD, and OHKO back. The Jolly 252 252 set maybe is not the top threat, it is a thing. That is why I didn't really mention this set in the above post. It can be considered as a check to the common Adament set though.

In addition, I personally run a 224 HP one so I pull the RNG in my favor, as Gyarados-Mega 2HKO PZ 100% if its spread is 252 Spa 252 Speed, while getting 2HKOed by PZ 47.7% of the time.

In addition, certain Z-conversion set of PZ beats it too.

 

[lost heros]

/Alright, since we're all sharing. I'll go ahead and write up my opinions. It seems that the pro-ban side is focusing on three things that push Gyarados-mega past the line between good and broken: its bulk and power, its type changing mega form, as well its movepool options.

Bulk and Power: Gyarados-Mega is one of the many bulky offense pokemon that I believe dominate the current meta. It has very nice 95/109/130 defenses which coupled with intimidate make it very hard break and with a 155 attack stat for power. Broken? No, especially when you realize Gyarados wants to invest 508 Stats into potentially 5 categories (HP, Atk, Def, SpD, Spe). All of which has an opportunity cost associated with it. If you don't invest at least 88 you won't hit the benchmark for outspeeding base 100s like the Charizards. If you don't invest 100, you don't stand a chance against Garchomp. And then the dreaded mirror match, which entirely depends on who's faster as it's race to get to +2 attack and then 2HKO. But then you have to go and look at bulk too. You wouldn't want to lost to a Choice Scarf KyuremB now would you? Easy solution is just add some defensive investment as you get more bang for your buck with Def than you do with HP thanks to intimidate. But that takes 192 investment to completely avoid jolly, and not to mention adamant. Granted, it's best to hedge your bets here with low likelihoods of losing to 2 Fusion Bolts before you hit 2 Outrages. But then that doesn't work if you wanted to try and beat Choice Scarf PZ's uproar, and you'd have to invest in some mixture of HP,Def,and SpD. And then let's not forget attack, because isn't it always awkward when you don't KO that Choice Scarf Victini. To be fair even running 252 Adamant is only 75% chance on the mew clones with Crunch, but with bulk you should be able to survive the 2HKO anyways. So, what do the 1760 weighted stats say about this decision. Is there a hidden combination of stats, that top tier gyarados-mega's use?
Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 32.589% | | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 12.317% | | Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 11.307% | | Adamant:0/240/16/0/0/252 9.365% | | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.656% | | Adamant:104/196/100/0/8/100 2.403% | | Other 27.364% |. So no real consensus, and not much min-maxxing either, and clearly speed and attack are favored. So say goodbye to trying to beat PZ and KyuB and some other bulky scarf users.

Changing its type: Probably one of Gyarados's best and most unique attributes is its ability to change its typing upon Mega-evolving. The only other pokemon that can change their typing, or at least popularly do so are CharizardX, Greninja, Conversion PorygonZ, Ampharos-mega (unreleased), Aggron-Mega (unreleased), and Pinsir-mega. The only released pokemon that uses that ability defensively is CharizardX, which does it arguably better. It starts with Fire/Flying: Weaknesses: Electric, Rock, WaterResistances: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Steel. Immunities: Ground, and changing to Fire/Dragon: Weaknesses: Dragon, Ground, Rock Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Steel Immunities: None. This means a SE move goes to resisted move, a Quad SE goes to just SE, and the final SE goes to a neutral attack. Charizard X could just chose not to mega and keep an immunity from turning into a SE attack and a neutral attack to being SE. AND Charizard-Mega-X innately bluffs being Y for even more 50/50 nonsense. My point is, if Charizard-mega-X does this and yet no one complains that it's broken or at least that aspect is broken, how could Gyarados-Mega be broken with a slightly worse version of the same trait?

Movepool: If you hopefully agree that there is a surprising amount of opportunity cost in Gyarados's stat choices, it'd be impossible for you not to recognize the price Gyarados pays in its movepool. It is essentially mandated to run Dragon Dance as its first move of choice, then it must choose from Outrage, Waterfall, Crunch, Taunt, and Earthquake for it's 3 other move slots. (I will add two addenda here. Some believe Outrage is similarly mandated, and some believe EQ is more of a niche choice. If we assume both then Gyarados still faces a similar problem of fitting 3 moves into 2 slots, which although it doesn't sound as bad as 5 in 3 produces similar problems. My second addendum is that for some reason rest has 20% usage at 1760 weighted. I don't know why, and I'll be ignoring that it does.) Many believe that outrage is a necessity as its Gyarados's main offense against the Charizards, Dragonite, KyuB, and the mirror match-up. Crunch, the second most popular move outside of DDance, is used against DeoD, Meloetta, and Aegislash. Waterfall covers ground and rock-pokemon like Donphan. Taunt is necessary for stall pokemon. Earthquake is necessary for beating steel type pokemon like Magnezone. Yet, even more so you need a combination of these moves to beat more pokemon. Taunt and Waterfall for Umbreon and Crustle. Sacrificing ONE move means A LOT of pokemon that you could theoretically beat, now beat you. Missing Earthquake, you lose to every magnezone, no need for tech. Missing Waterfall, say goodbye to beating crustle. If you don't want to easily lose to stall, you have to carry taunt.

Conclusion: I don't mean to downplay any of Gyarados-Mega's attributes. I'm trying to show what balances it out. Gyarados has a large cost to whenever it chooses something. Looking through the checks and counters from the usage stats rarely shows Gyarados-mega even when it's the most popular pokemon. Gyarados exceeds at fleshing out a team, but not at dictating a team.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Should I Stay or Should I Go?

​

I'd like to start off by saying that Gyarados is undoubtedly the best mon in the tier. Yes, everyone has their favorite mon to use, but Gyara finds a way to almost always reign supreme in ladder play. However, it is not Broken or Centralizing enough to warrant a ban. (don't worry, I'm going to explain why)

First off I'd like to say, I realize 1v1 is unlike any other tier on Smogon. Due to the amount of mons on a team, and how many a player brings to each battle it is truly unique (and just the best) - however, this doesn't exempt it from being compared to other tiers like OU. If one looks at the OU tier they will see threats such as Zard-x, Pheromosa, Lando-t, and many others that put a serious strain on team building. While these mons obviously cause a murmur of irritation among OU players they're generally accepted, because they realize someone new will always rise up and replace a fallen tyrant. No matter what tier you look at, or which history book you read you'll see that no tier/society ever stays truly equal. Eventually someone becomes power hungry and asserts themselves as an alpha male.

We look at M-gyara as a blood thirsty king who has an unfair advantage against all those he is compared to, but the question is - "Is M-Gyara being the best mon in 1v1 truly an unbearable feat?"

M-gyara is great, but it does lose to things like Magearna, M-venu, Blissey, Tapu Koko, and Genesect almost all the time - and several others on a more set by set basis (I left a lot of mons out of this - just so many posts on what Gyara can/can't beat I didn't feel like a complete list is needed at this point). It makes one consider what truly constitutes broken. Is it a mon that only can be stopped by X amount of mons, and if so what is X? Or is it something that stifles creativity? Is this a case where people want M-gyara gone simply because it will allow mons with lower viability to rise up? If so, that's an absolutely dreadful approach - a power cap set on a tier to make a few lower viability mons more playable is horrendous. I hope 1v1 continues to stay away from this, as it has in the past.

The power cap is another thing that needs to be considered in this situation. Every tier, barring AG, has to decide what is the strongest thing they want in the Metagame. Currently 1v1 is being ruled by M-gyara, but if it's gone the power level of 1v1 diminishes a tad. Once M-Gyara is gone mons like Kyurem-b and Zard-x rise to dominance and we'll be discussing whether or not they should be banned. It's an endless cycle that will make 1v1 a vanilla tier full of sub par mons if we as educated 1v1 players don't put our foot down and draw a line in the sand on what we're going to let be the best. Last gen this was a consistent theme for every tier with Ubers having Primal Groudon to NU having Tauros - at a certain point a decision must be made on what is allowed to be the best without being deemed broken - maybe it's Gyara, maybe it's not.

A possible way to test the power cap is a suspect test where M-Gyara isn't available. Every other 1v1 suspect test I've been a part of has allowed the mon in question of being banned on the ladder, but I'd really like to see a test where it's not usable so we as players can truly see what the meta would be like without it.

Also the arguments on M-Gyara have quickly been picking up speed, but I feel we should slow our role a little. One of the best M-Gyara stoppers the tier has ever known, M-Mawile, is coming back loud and proud very soon. When Mawile comes back I expect a bit of new toy syndrome to take over where people use it in excess greatly depreciating the value of a M-Gyara pick pulling it closer to the masses.

A quick note on centralizing. Yes, M-Gyara is something every good team should be prepared for, but that doesn't make it ban worthy. In OU Lando-t had a usage of 48% last month, which means it's a great over used mon - but there is no discussion on banning it. It simply means teams have adapted to standard top tier threats and are working around them - and yes I understand that this hurts variety, but as I've stated before something new will always rise up and threaten the "fun" factor of using unique mons.

At this point I've done a lot of theoretical talking on why M-gyara should stay, but I'd like to add a set, and discuss its best factors so readers unfamiliar with the mon get to see both sides.

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 96 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Crunch
​

This is the M-gyara set I've used since Gen 6. It's fast enough to beat Garchomp at +1, bulky enough to take 2 fusion bolts from a scarfed Kyurem-b, and still finds a way to ohko almost anything when it gets to +1 in attack (within reason, I get it's not OHKOing M-Venu). It's truly a terrifying set that can put in major work on the ladder. It does have a few issues though: it loses to opposing taunt Gyara, bulky wisp Zards, as well as, the aforementioned threats in this post.

It has great dual typing that grants some 50/50's simply because you don't know if Gyara is going to mega evolve or not, and with the mega evolution's ability change comes a second great ability in mold breaker to go along with the overpowered ability intimidate. Making M-gyara a bulk monster that can be a teams answer to annoying fear sets and a trolly shedinja.

M-Gyara also has the blessing and curse of 4mss. Meaning Gyarados can run multiple sets to take an advantage, but it can only run 1 set at a time meaning the trainer has to pick what to prep for with Gyara. This can lead to some interesting mind games on the ladder as people start to CT each other.

In conclusion, I'd like to reiterate that M-Gyara is a great mon, that can't be denied. I just ask when you look at whether or not it's ban worthy you don't just look at its dominance, but whether or not the 1v1 Metagame would significantly improve if it weren't around. If you believe it would improve vote ban, if not let the fishy stay.

- Also I'm very much in favor of having a suspect test (I'd just prefer one without M-Gyara allowed)

​

 

[Kentari]

now that we know that the other megas are coming back, with Mega Mawile being released later this month (which was one of the more important checks to Mega Gyarados last generation) , I believe we should at least wait until it's release to see if it will be as big of an issue (which it still could be don't get me wrong).

I would disagree with this only because Mega-Gyarados was broken in Gen 6, when Mega-Mawile was around. Gen 7 added a lot Gyarados answers and Gyarados is still broken and still the best pokemon in 1v1. I don't see how adding Mega-Mawile will do anything but increase the number of Mega-Gyarados that run Earthquake, which some are already doing in order to beat or hax certain counters, like Magnezone and Magearna.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Kentari I think M-mawile has a really good chance to beat M-Gyara if you run a bulkier set. A lot of people run speed, but I've always preferred running a set with 240hp, 252att, 16 speed.

-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
If M-gyara comes in and starts clicking EQ it wont 2hko most of the time (I'd bet on mawile with that role)

252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 206-244 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if M-gyara takes a turn to DD up it still wouldn't get the KO until turn 3.

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 344-408 (103.9 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
M-mawile on the other hand can still ohko through intimidate.

-1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 118-140 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If gyara doesn't mega it wont be able to 2hko even if it megas turn 2, or the chances are significantly low.

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 225-265 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also if gyara stays in normal form it's still 2hko, while mawile is 3hko giving it an advantage.

This uses M-mawile with intimidate pre mega - I just personally prefer it. Also it's a jolly 252 attack m-gyara on the calcs, I used this set because I figured it would be somewhere in the middle.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 336-396 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also if you go with hyper cutter, M-mawile is still ohkoing any offensive gyara (even in regular form) - If i find that lots of people are running M-gyara vs me I make the swap

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 226-266 (74.5 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if M-gyara is adamant it wont ohko, and Mawile is cleaning up. (this is also vs a mawile without intimidate)

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 242-286 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also as long as Magearna hits its fleur cannon M-gyara with eq shouldn't be an issue. But I do agree zones match up is severely crippled.

Obviously this relies on someone running a bulkier M-mawile (ME). Also all of this relies on hitting Play Rough (so that's always going to be something to consider). Obviously some people run things like max speed mawile with fun sets like endure - looking at you Elo Bandit, but I prefer a bulky slower set that will beat M-gyara a large proportion of the time. Also if I messed up on these calcs let me know, I tried to input the intimidate by hand, because it didn't show up initially (at least I think) so if something is messed up let me know I'd be glad to fix it.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Kentari I think M-mawile has a really good chance to beat M-Gyara if you run a bulkier set. A lot of people run speed, but I've always preferred running a set with 240hp, 252att, 16 speed.

Obviously this relies on someone running a bulkier M-mawile (ME). Also all of this relies on hitting Play Rough (so that's always going to be something to consider). Obviously some people run things like max speed mawile with fun sets like endure - looking at you Elo Bandit, but I prefer a bulky slower set that will beat M-gyara a large proportion of the time. Also if I messed up on these calcs let me know, I tried to input the intimidate by hand, because it didn't show up initially (at least I think) so if something is messed up let me know I'd be glad to fix it.

I actually did some research into this back in gen 6 1v1 and found out that max atk Adamant Gyarados has exactly a 50/50 chance of 2hko-ing a Max HP Mega Mawile with Earthquake despite the atk loss from intimidate. Of course, this isn't taking into account critical hits or Play Rough missing/getting the atk drop.
The 50/50 stated above coming from Gyarados using Earthquake pre-mega, and then again post-mega so that it can safely tank a hit from Play Rough.

Since people ran speed on Mawile so frequently s/o to Elo Bandit Gyarados basically became a Mawile counter because of this, to the extent where players had to start bringing Thunder Punch just to give them at least a 50/50 chance versus no chance if they fsr still wanted their Mawile to be speedy.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Yeah I kinda realized the match up wasn't as straight up as I thought after talking to lost heroes. Although he mentioned a gyara spread of 88 hp and 80 def (no idea if that's a thing) and if your mawile was hyper cutter gyara lost to play rough (gyara in normal form) and sucker (gyara in mega form) so that's something to look at in mawile's favor.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados: 306-361 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados-Mega: 62-73 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Obviously this makes M-mawile hyper cutter, but it does find a way to beat M-gyara. Unless you loss the sucker punch match up, or miss a play rough. I mean obviously M-mawile vs. M-gyara is an iffy match up, but if Gyara is stuck running EQ over something like outrage or taunt it starts to suffer in other match ups.

 

[lost heros]

Yeah I kinda realized the match up wasn't as straight up as I thought after talking to lost heroes. Although he mentioned a gyara spread of 88 hp and 80 def (no idea if that's a thing) and if your mawile was hyper cutter gyara lost to play rough (gyara in normal form) and sucker (gyara in mega form) so that's something to look at in mawile's favor.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados: 306-361 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados-Mega: 62-73 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Obviously this makes M-mawile hyper cutter, but it does find a way to beat M-gyara. Unless you loss the sucker punch match up, or miss a play rough. I mean obviously M-mawile vs. M-gyara is an iffy match up, but if Gyara is stuck running EQ over something like outrage or taunt it starts to suffer in other match ups.

88/80 is something I saw someone post last gen for their Gyarados-Mega set, which I adopted because it's an even split between that and the speed necessary to outspeed base 100s. Elo Bandit made a video on a similar set Adamant:104/196/100/0/8/100, which doesn't affect the outcome.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 104 HP / 96 Def Gyarados: 301-355 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 61-72 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Another thing to remember is that Mawile-Mega always has access to metal burst. So by investing in bulk and picking Metal Burst on EQs and Play Rough on DDance makes the MMawile - MGyara match-up prediction based rather than coin flipping.

 

[magicarpe_lvl100]

(random post during the debate for gyara)

Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life / Roost
- Superpower / Hammer Arm
- Thunder Punch / Earthquake / Poison Jab / Stone Edge

Honestly , this is one of the most underrated mons in the 1v1 metagame. That thing wins almost always against gyarados , can beat donphan , and a large part of the physical attackers ... Oh , and it learns counter , too .

 

[Uselesscrab]

(random post during the debate for gyara)

Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life / Roost
- Superpower / Hammer Arm
- Thunder Punch / Earthquake / Poison Jab / Stone Edge

Honestly , this is one of the most underrated mons in the 1v1 metagame. That thing wins almost always against gyarados , can beat donphan , and a large part of the physical attackers ... Oh , and it learns counter , too .

I have been using a similar set and found it fairly useful, though the complete and utter lack of special bulk is a problem. Mostly just posting this for the EV spread:

Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 200 HP / 180 Atk / 128 Def
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Lunge
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Basically the same idea. Only difference is Lunge (which helps even more against physical attackers, in my mind, especially with Roost, thanks to that sweet 100% attack drop). The spread allows you to live a Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz 93.8% of the time, or something, and then KO with All-Out Pummeling 93.8% of the time in return (edit: I guess recoil would make this 100%). Superpower would yield a stronger Z-move, but is pretty counterproductive when trying to serve as a physical wall. I passed up other offensive coverage (in essence, your fourth moveslot) just because I don't see Buzzwole doing that well against anything relevant that resists Bug/Fighting (Fairy- and Flying-types destroy it anyway).

Kind of similar to Bewear overall imo.

 

[Kentari]

Yeah I kinda realized the match up wasn't as straight up as I thought after talking to lost heroes. Although he mentioned a gyara spread of 88 hp and 80 def (no idea if that's a thing) and if your mawile was hyper cutter gyara lost to play rough (gyara in normal form) and sucker (gyara in mega form) so that's something to look at in mawile's favor.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados: 306-361 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 88 HP / 80 Def Gyarados-Mega: 62-73 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Obviously this makes M-mawile hyper cutter, but it does find a way to beat M-gyara. Unless you loss the sucker punch match up, or miss a play rough. I mean obviously M-mawile vs. M-gyara is an iffy match up, but if Gyara is stuck running EQ over something like outrage or taunt it starts to suffer in other match ups.

Your and Lost Hero's posts really just show that Mawile isn't a counter, which was my point. One more pokemon that is kinda favored against Gyarados won't change all that much. So I don't think we need to wait for Mawile. It will probably be released before Gyarados gets suspected anyway.

 

[DEG]

I heard around that I wasn't an active of leader and 1v1 deserves more attention due to the dead threads in Resources and metagame discussion. Plus I got that "Leaders never lead the discussion in 1v1". First of all, I'd like to apologize for the lack of posting or information given, I'd like to open up the Mega Gyarados discussion again but now starting with me, Mega Mawile is going to be released in a week or less so that's a date we're waiting before taking any sudden move.

​

I - What Changed?

Ever since its discovery in the 1v1 metagame last gen, Mega Gyarados was a splashing force in the metagame. It found itself being used on many teams and was kind of a repetitive unit seeing as it was easily splashable on most teams as it gave out easy answers to a lot of threats roaming in the metagame such as Kyurem-Black, Charizard and Rhyperior. Many people considered it over-centralizing but never made the initiation to call out for a suspect test. The fact that it was unhealthy last gen is that it was a glue to the generic teams that consisted Mega Charizard, Mega Mawile/Kyurem-Black and Mega Gyarados it covered all weaknesses that would take advantage of the team. Furthermore, its ability to just win most games and being unpredictable unlike its two others last gen S+ ranked Pokemon and its amazing typing. Despite all these shattered pieces that made Mega Gyarados it was never suspected or considered broken due to the enormous power creep that 1v1 was falling into last generation. Most things were offensive or bulky offensive to counter the first playstyle, and all these Pokemon weren't considered unhealthy because they balanced eachother. That, fortunately to many, changed this generation as the 1v1 metagame seem perfectly balanced between stall, offense and balance and this is a gem that people didn't want to waste. Due to the various playstyles Mega Gyarados found itself able to completely dominate the metagame as it can take on all three without too much pain as it can adjust its moveset easily. Even though the new additions like Tapu Koko, Primarina and Magearna can beat it most times, Mega Gyarados finds itself easily going through last generation's revamped threats like Crustle, Donphan, Charizard, Meloetta, Mega Slowbro with ease. Moreover, the new combinations of Mega Gyarados, Fire-type, Steel-type is what this metagame might be shaping to. And by the tone I'm speaking you know where I stand in this situation, but without a further ado here's my opinion on the matter.

II - Ban Mega Gyarados

No, I'm not talking to myself. I'm talking to the community, allowing them to understand my opinion and debate over it. But minds are hard to change and everything that I will mention has probably been mentioned in some posts above. Starting from its regular Gyarados form, it has access to one of the best abilities in 1v1 in Intimidate lowering the foe physically offensive stat making it easier to sponge hits from that side, on top of that, its typing in Water/Flying allowing it to easily tank Bug-, Grass-, and Fighting-type attacks and not be affected super effectively by Fairy-type moves during its mega form. This alternation in between battles creates more mind games and allow the Mega Gyarados user to control the battlefield by the choice he's going to make, that doesn't necessary mean that its going to be in his favor but he has higher chance as Mega Gyarados has the moveslot to really abuse these type changes. Speaking of moveset, Mega Gyarados has one of the best, even if not so vast, moveset in the metagame. It got most moves it really needs such as Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Crunch, Outrage, Taunt, Earthquake allowing it to adjust its moveset easily. It is stated in the banning philosophy that unpredictability shouldn't be a strong argument but here the unpredictability comes to little opportunity cost unlike running Icium-Z on Kyurem-Black or Choice Scarf per example both beats common checks and suffer much more against others. I'm not making Mega Gyarados the Mega Rayquaza of 1v1, yes it running different moves can lead to its doom but I'm saying that is isn't as tragic as others. It can pick it own check and adjust its moveset considering its teammates. Dragon Dance is a move that allows Mega Gyarados to boosts both of its Attack and Speed making it a scary shrimp especially against Physically Offensive Pokemon due to Intimidate. Waterfall is an important move if you plan on always beating Rock-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon which are represented by Crustle, Charizard, and Donphan, three serious threats in the metagame. Crunch comes in hand against Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon such as Aegislash, Deoxys-Defense and Mega Slowbro. Outrage is an important move that can be spammed easily against most threats that don't get hit super effectively by the other moves, it especially allows it to beat most if not all Dragon-type Pokemon. Taunt allows Mega Gyarados to beat Stall Pokemon with no problem while Earthquake allows it to hit Steel-type Pokemon and should be seeing more usage as Mega Mawile comes back. Dragon Dance and Outrage are the fixated elements in the moveset but the other two moves pushes the opponent into wondering what Mega Gyarados might be running scared in sending that Pokemon or sending another one. Let's not forget that Mega Gyarados stats are amazing, it has one of the highest attacks in the 1v1 metagame and great bulk that goes well with its both of its ability, typing and Dragon Dance. These great traits makes Mega Gyarados stands much more above the rest.

III - But it's an S rank!

The definition of S-rank has changed and people think that these Pokemon should really be the broken units of the metagame. S-rank is reserved for Pokemon that do a fantastic job in the metagame but inside a condition that it is healthy enough to balance the metagame. At this moment we have 2 S-rank Pokemon Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X. I haven't seen complaints about Mega Charizard X as it is present in the metagame with good intentions. What differentiates both of these Pokemon? Mega Gyarados is unpredictable in its moveslot, though Mega Charizard X is unpredictable before mega evolving. Mega Gyarados has a far superior pre-mega evolving and after mega evolving typing combo than Mega Charizard X. It also has a greater typing in Water, while Mega Charizard X Fire- and Dragon-type makes it vulnerable to a good amount of threats. That's the simple difference between both of them, the Water/Dark Pokemon have little checks and its departure might make a lot of Pokemon better while Mega Charizard X has a lot of checks which might increase as they most are Rock-, Ground- and Dragon-type Pokemon which Mega Gyarados beat. But again I have no right to talk about the future but that's a small comparison I wanted to reach.

IV - Conclusion

I do think that Mega Gyarados deserves to be banned as it creates many teambuilding restrictions and I'm looking forward the release of Mega Mawile to see if Mega Gyarados will still be broken but as a person that played through Generation VI I can say that it will still be, additionally that return might recreate the generic teams in Mega Mawile, Mega Dos, Mega Zard. What do you guys think about the situation? After we're done with Mega Gyarados I want to pass on to better and greater things so stay tuned!

 

[Felucia]

I heard around that I wasn't an active of leader and 1v1 deserves more attention due to the dead threads in Resources and metagame discussion. Plus I got that "Leaders never lead the discussion in 1v1". First of all, I'd like to apologize for the lack of posting or information given, I'd like to open up the Mega Gyarados discussion again but now starting with me, Mega Mawile is going to be released in a week or less so that's a date we're waiting before taking any sudden move.

​

I - What Changed?

Ever since its discovery in the 1v1 metagame last gen, Mega Gyarados was a splashing force in the metagame. It found itself being used on many teams and was kind of a repetitive unit seeing as it was easily splashable on most teams as it gave out easy answers to a lot of threats roaming in the metagame such as Kyurem-Black, Charizard and Rhyperior. Many people considered it over-centralizing but never made the initiation to call out for a suspect test. The fact that it was unhealthy last gen is that it was a glue to the generic teams that consisted Mega Charizard, Mega Mawile/Kyurem-Black and Mega Gyarados it covered all weaknesses that would take advantage of the team. Furthermore, its ability to just win most games and being unpredictable unlike its two others last gen S+ ranked Pokemon and its amazing typing. Despite all these shattered pieces that made Mega Gyarados it was never suspected or considered broken due to the enormous power creep that 1v1 was falling into last generation. Most things were offensive or bulky offensive to counter the first playstyle, and all these Pokemon weren't considered unhealthy because they balanced eachother. That, fortunately to many, changed this generation as the 1v1 metagame seem perfectly balanced between stall, offense and balance and this is a gem that people didn't want to waste. Due to the various playstyles Mega Gyarados found itself able to completely dominate the metagame as it can take on all three without too much pain as it can adjust its moveset easily. Even though the new additions like Tapu Koko, Primarina and Magearna can beat it most times, Mega Gyarados finds itself easily going through last generation's revamped threats like Crustle, Donphan, Charizard, Meloetta, Mega Slowbro with ease. Moreover, the new combinations of Mega Gyarados, Fire-type, Steel-type is what this metagame might be shaping to. And by the tone I'm speaking you know where I stand in this situation, but without a further ado here's my opinion on the matter.

II - Ban Mega Gyarados

No, I'm not talking to myself. I'm talking to the community, allowing them to understand my opinion and debate over it. But minds are hard to change and everything that I will mention has probably been mentioned in some posts above. Starting from its regular Gyarados form, it has access to one of the best abilities in 1v1 in Intimidate lowering the foe physically offensive stat making it easier to sponge hits from that side, on top of that, its typing in Water/Flying allowing it to easily tank Bug-, Grass-, and Fighting-type attacks and not be affected super effectively by Fairy-type moves during its mega form. This alternation in between battles creates more mind games and allow the Mega Gyarados user to control the battlefield by the choice he's going to make, that doesn't necessary mean that its going to be in his favor but he has higher chance as Mega Gyarados has the moveslot to really abuse these type changes. Speaking of moveset, Mega Gyarados has one of the best, even if not so vast, moveset in the metagame. It got most moves it really needs such as Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Crunch, Outrage, Taunt, Earthquake allowing it to adjust its moveset easily. It is stated in the banning philosophy that unpredictability shouldn't be a strong argument but here the unpredictability comes to little opportunity cost unlike running Icium-Z on Kyurem-Black or Choice Scarf per example both beats common checks and suffer much more against others. I'm not making Mega Gyarados the Mega Rayquaza of 1v1, yes it running different moves can lead to its doom but I'm saying that is isn't as tragic as others. It can pick it own check and adjust its moveset considering its teammates. Dragon Dance is a move that allows Mega Gyarados to boosts both of its Attack and Speed making it a scary shrimp especially against Physically Offensive Pokemon due to Intimidate. Waterfall is an important move if you plan on always beating Rock-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon which are represented by Crustle, Charizard, and Donphan, three serious threats in the metagame. Crunch comes in hand against Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon such as Aegislash, Deoxys-Defense and Mega Slowbro. Outrage is an important move that can be spammed easily against most threats that don't get hit super effectively by the other moves, it especially allows it to beat most if not all Dragon-type Pokemon. Taunt allows Mega Gyarados to beat Stall Pokemon with no problem while Earthquake allows it to hit Steel-type Pokemon and should be seeing more usage as Mega Mawile comes back. Dragon Dance and Outrage are the fixated elements in the moveset but the other two moves pushes the opponent into wondering what Mega Gyarados might be running scared in sending that Pokemon or sending another one. Let's not forget that Mega Gyarados stats are amazing, it has one of the highest attacks in the 1v1 metagame and great bulk that goes well with its both of its ability, typing and Dragon Dance. These great traits makes Mega Gyarados stands much more above the rest.

III - But it's an S rank!

The definition of S-rank has changed and people think that these Pokemon should really be the broken units of the metagame. S-rank is reserved for Pokemon that do a fantastic job in the metagame but inside a condition that it is healthy enough to balance the metagame. At this moment we have 2 S-rank Pokemon Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X. I haven't seen complaints about Mega Charizard X as it is present in the metagame with good intentions. What differentiates both of these Pokemon? Mega Gyarados is unpredictable in its moveslot, though Mega Charizard X is unpredictable before mega evolving. Mega Gyarados has a far superior pre-mega evolving and after mega evolving typing combo than Mega Charizard X. It also has a greater typing in Water, while Mega Charizard X Fire- and Dragon-type makes it vulnerable to a good amount of threats. That's the simple difference between both of them, the Water/Dark Pokemon have little checks and its departure might make a lot of Pokemon better while Mega Charizard X has a lot of checks which might increase as they most are Rock-, Ground- and Dragon-type Pokemon which Mega Gyarados beat. But again I have no right to talk about the future but that's a small comparison I wanted to reach.

IV - Conclusion

I do think that Mega Gyarados deserves to be banned as it creates many teambuilding restrictions and I'm looking forward the release of Mega Mawile to see if Mega Gyarados will still be broken but as a person that played through Generation VI I can say that it will still be, additionally that return might recreate the generic teams in Mega Mawile, Mega Dos, Mega Zard. What do you guys think about the situation? After we're done with Mega Gyarados I want to pass on to better and greater things so stay tuned!

My opinion towards this matter has changed a little bit since l last posted.
Since it's going to be around a week until Mawilite, I suggest we wait, also because the discussion towards banning gyarados will take at least another week anyway.
I am with you DEG
ALSO
don't be hard on yourself, you're a great leader and even though you're semi-absent sometimes we still all know you're involved with the 1v1 community and Love 1v1 as much as I do

~Mez

 

[lost heros]

I heard around that I wasn't an active of leader and 1v1 deserves more attention due to the dead threads in Resources and metagame discussion. Plus I got that "Leaders never lead the discussion in 1v1". First of all, I'd like to apologize for the lack of posting or information given, I'd like to open up the Mega Gyarados discussion again but now starting with me, Mega Mawile is going to be released in a week or less so that's a date we're waiting before taking any sudden move.

​

I - What Changed?

Ever since its discovery in the 1v1 metagame last gen, Mega Gyarados was a splashing force in the metagame. It found itself being used on many teams and was kind of a repetitive unit seeing as it was easily splashable on most teams as it gave out easy answers to a lot of threats roaming in the metagame such as Kyurem-Black, Charizard and Rhyperior. Many people considered it over-centralizing but never made the initiation to call out for a suspect test. The fact that it was unhealthy last gen is that it was a glue to the generic teams that consisted Mega Charizard, Mega Mawile/Kyurem-Black and Mega Gyarados it covered all weaknesses that would take advantage of the team. Furthermore, its ability to just win most games and being unpredictable unlike its two others last gen S+ ranked Pokemon and its amazing typing. Despite all these shattered pieces that made Mega Gyarados it was never suspected or considered broken due to the enormous power creep that 1v1 was falling into last generation. Most things were offensive or bulky offensive to counter the first playstyle, and all these Pokemon weren't considered unhealthy because they balanced eachother. That, fortunately to many, changed this generation as the 1v1 metagame seem perfectly balanced between stall, offense and balance and this is a gem that people didn't want to waste. Due to the various playstyles Mega Gyarados found itself able to completely dominate the metagame as it can take on all three without too much pain as it can adjust its moveset easily. Even though the new additions like Tapu Koko, Primarina and Magearna can beat it most times, Mega Gyarados finds itself easily going through last generation's revamped threats like Crustle, Donphan, Charizard, Meloetta, Mega Slowbro with ease. Moreover, the new combinations of Mega Gyarados, Fire-type, Steel-type is what this metagame might be shaping to. And by the tone I'm speaking you know where I stand in this situation, but without a further ado here's my opinion on the matter.

II - Ban Mega Gyarados

No, I'm not talking to myself. I'm talking to the community, allowing them to understand my opinion and debate over it. But minds are hard to change and everything that I will mention has probably been mentioned in some posts above. Starting from its regular Gyarados form, it has access to one of the best abilities in 1v1 in Intimidate lowering the foe physically offensive stat making it easier to sponge hits from that side, on top of that, its typing in Water/Flying allowing it to easily tank Bug-, Grass-, and Fighting-type attacks and not be affected super effectively by Fairy-type moves during its mega form. This alternation in between battles creates more mind games and allow the Mega Gyarados user to control the battlefield by the choice he's going to make, that doesn't necessary mean that its going to be in his favor but he has higher chance as Mega Gyarados has the moveslot to really abuse these type changes. Speaking of moveset, Mega Gyarados has one of the best, even if not so vast, moveset in the metagame. It got most moves it really needs such as Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Crunch, Outrage, Taunt, Earthquake allowing it to adjust its moveset easily. It is stated in the banning philosophy that unpredictability shouldn't be a strong argument but here the unpredictability comes to little opportunity cost unlike running Icium-Z on Kyurem-Black or Choice Scarf per example both beats common checks and suffer much more against others. I'm not making Mega Gyarados the Mega Rayquaza of 1v1, yes it running different moves can lead to its doom but I'm saying that is isn't as tragic as others. It can pick it own check and adjust its moveset considering its teammates. Dragon Dance is a move that allows Mega Gyarados to boosts both of its Attack and Speed making it a scary shrimp especially against Physically Offensive Pokemon due to Intimidate. Waterfall is an important move if you plan on always beating Rock-, Fire-, and Ground-type Pokemon which are represented by Crustle, Charizard, and Donphan, three serious threats in the metagame. Crunch comes in hand against Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon such as Aegislash, Deoxys-Defense and Mega Slowbro. Outrage is an important move that can be spammed easily against most threats that don't get hit super effectively by the other moves, it especially allows it to beat most if not all Dragon-type Pokemon. Taunt allows Mega Gyarados to beat Stall Pokemon with no problem while Earthquake allows it to hit Steel-type Pokemon and should be seeing more usage as Mega Mawile comes back. Dragon Dance and Outrage are the fixated elements in the moveset but the other two moves pushes the opponent into wondering what Mega Gyarados might be running scared in sending that Pokemon or sending another one. Let's not forget that Mega Gyarados stats are amazing, it has one of the highest attacks in the 1v1 metagame and great bulk that goes well with its both of its ability, typing and Dragon Dance. These great traits makes Mega Gyarados stands much more above the rest.

III - But it's an S rank!

The definition of S-rank has changed and people think that these Pokemon should really be the broken units of the metagame. S-rank is reserved for Pokemon that do a fantastic job in the metagame but inside a condition that it is healthy enough to balance the metagame. At this moment we have 2 S-rank Pokemon Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X. I haven't seen complaints about Mega Charizard X as it is present in the metagame with good intentions. What differentiates both of these Pokemon? Mega Gyarados is unpredictable in its moveslot, though Mega Charizard X is unpredictable before mega evolving. Mega Gyarados has a far superior pre-mega evolving and after mega evolving typing combo than Mega Charizard X. It also has a greater typing in Water, while Mega Charizard X Fire- and Dragon-type makes it vulnerable to a good amount of threats. That's the simple difference between both of them, the Water/Dark Pokemon have little checks and its departure might make a lot of Pokemon better while Mega Charizard X has a lot of checks which might increase as they most are Rock-, Ground- and Dragon-type Pokemon which Mega Gyarados beat. But again I have no right to talk about the future but that's a small comparison I wanted to reach.

IV - Conclusion

I do think that Mega Gyarados deserves to be banned as it creates many teambuilding restrictions and I'm looking forward the release of Mega Mawile to see if Mega Gyarados will still be broken but as a person that played through Generation VI I can say that it will still be, additionally that return might recreate the generic teams in Mega Mawile, Mega Dos, Mega Zard. What do you guys think about the situation? After we're done with Mega Gyarados I want to pass on to better and greater things so stay tuned!

Firstly, I want to say thank you. I know it's not easy being leader, especially with annoying people in the Discord constantly demanding you. The 1v1 community does appreciate your leadership (so much so we want more). However, I do have to bring up that Mega Gyarados's future should be considered independent of other potentially broken pokemon in the 1v1. Including, Mega Mawile.

I think we've reached a point in the metagame where we can address balance issues, such as Mega Gyarados, Mega Mawile, and Z moves. Regardless, of anyone's opinions all of these deserve more discussion and potentially a suspect test. (Mega Gyarados and Mega Mawile first, and after the dust settles we can revisit Z moves). I'm going to pass on discussing Mega Gyarados, partially because I remain anti-ban and partially because anyone who reads the above quote knows why we're having a discussion on Mega Gyarados. If (read: when) Mega Gyarados gets suspected, I'll post more.

The State of the Meta: It's not in a good state. Bulky Offense has dominated the metagame, likely since gen 6. It makes sense, being able to sponge attacks and retaliate strongly works very well in a 1v1 situation. However, it's never been this polarizing. Gyarados-Mega isn't the only offender. Crustle, Donphan, Mega Metagross, and Sawk can easily be considered Bulky Offense threats. Even typically Offensive threats are sacrificing Speed and Power for bulk, beyond Charizard-Mega-X, and Kyurem-B. Standard Offense and Stall don't have a chance against these threats. Thanks to Z-Moves this playstyle is incredibly popular and effective. If you don't believe me ask Porygon-Z and Greninja.

Mega Mawile: Please, please, please, please, no. This monster is insane. It already has the highest attack stat in the game, combined with the best defensive typing, intimidate, and good physical and special bulk, priority, set-up moves, taunt, metal burst, and great Dual STAB, why would this thing ever be allowed in 1v1 in the first place. And no, the sucker punch nerf is not enough to keep this thing from being absolutely broken. The meta doesn't need this monster. PLEASE.

Z Moves: I know most people in the community agree that there has been a consensus about Z moves the last time we talked about them, but we talked about them in a much more nascent meta. Z-status moves had just started being discovered. Hell KyuB wasn't even considering running Icium Z. The discussion was centered around Tapu Koko mostly, which I doubt many people would consider the best Z-user nowadays and IF Mega Gyarados gets banned our BEST answer to Z-users will be gone and they'll be excessively splashed on to most pokemon.