I doubt it; there are hundreds of people who try to get reqs. I already got mine yesterday as the thread shows.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - London Bridge is Falling Down
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I'd say Archaludon needs a ban.
Archaludon is one of those mons that really doesn't have a clear cut answer. The closest ones you'll get are Clodsire (pray no eq) or Ting-Lu (only relevant for a couple times), but other than that you sometimes have to play sacks against this thing. That's fine, but only if you can get enough value just by forcing it out.
Additionally, I personally believe that the best way to beat Archaludon is to flat out contest the weather war, whether that be something like a Tyranitar (Ttar for OU 2024), Gking, Torkoal, or even Hippo to beat this thing.
This is where things start to get unhealthy for Archaludon. If the main way to beat Archaludon is to quite literally win the weather war, how do you beat it when it's not the easiest thing to cripple rain structures severely, especially when Pelipper can roost off damage and pivot into strong breakers without using weather setter?
The answer is by using some pretty cope stuff. Stuff like manual sun Volcarona and Gouging Fire are some ways you can contest the weather war. Before I move on from this part, no, this isn't some sick tech that blows your mind or anything, it quite literally is so that you don't instalose to rain and can be pretty hard to justify outside of weather matchups, although it is possible I guess. The other way is by trading for the mon, which has a lot of nuance to it. If you trade a mon to wear it down, you should be able to capitalize on your momentum well: the issue is that once you trade for Archaludon (if you even do that, if it switches in on something that doesn't threaten it it can just get a kill at the cost of momentum only), you a) can't use it as setup fodder to punish it because rain mons are elite at revenge killing and b) might have lost a mon that was crucial to holding the fort against the other rain mons like Raging Bolt.
To put it into perspective, I believe the only reliable counterplay(s) to Archaludon are to try and wear it down and trade mons, arguing that with Archaludon gone, the game becomes a lot easier (it usually doesn't) or to enter the realm of weather wars, which, uh... okay they're kinda fun to play into but also extremely matchup fishy.
If I'm mentioning that Archaludon can force sacks which can open up other sweepers like Raging Bolt, you might be wondering "why not ban Raging Bolt" or something like that.
I think Raging Bolt has some of its own issues, still on the fence on if it should be banned or not, but that being set aside, Archaludon carries the rain structure in a way that it can support these high risk high reward with too good of a backbone that gets so much value for no reason. Go all the way since release to HOME meta, and you'd find that while rain is a scary ass playstyle, it's also got some issues, such as frailness. For example, a strong revenge killer like Dragonite could pick off rain teams with proper play. The issue with Archaludon is it nullifies that counterplay in a sense; yes, Dragonite is good against rain, but not if it can't reliably espeed into something like a Barraskewda, otherwise risking the game on the spot to an Archaludon swap. The overall bulk, paired with the fact that it's so strong, covers all of rain's flaws too well. Rain should have notable weaknesses like priority moves and an overall lack of defensive form, but Archaludon flips that on its head. I mention defensive form, but what I really mean is that Archaludon provides so much defensive utility for a mon that is far from do-nothing. Additionally, Archaludon is still quite stand-alone, it can still pick up 2 KOs easily even without necessarily breaking for some strong mon like Raging Bolt anyways.
Rain is a cool strat, and I really do like some of the old rain strats, such as this Maushold Rain by SetsuSetsuna from HOME meta (https://pokepast.es/f99a22475aec7718), but you can see its flaws aside from "win the weather war". It's strong, but it's really frail and can be dismantled if you can get off a vital attack (something which bounces off of Archaludon).
In my opinion, a good rain should be a structure that's strong but falls short in sustainability and ability to take hits; any bulky mons on the team should be relatively passive and should be utility for the most part (Ting-Lu, EB Hatterene), which goes against what Archaludon is by principle; a mon that takes way too many hits and deals way too much damage in return, leading to exchange-heavy gameplay when it comes to neutralizing the bridge.
Archaludon is one of those mons that really doesn't have a clear cut answer. The closest ones you'll get are Clodsire (pray no eq) or Ting-Lu (only relevant for a couple times), but other than that you sometimes have to play sacks against this thing. That's fine, but only if you can get enough value just by forcing it out.
Additionally, I personally believe that the best way to beat Archaludon is to flat out contest the weather war, whether that be something like a Tyranitar (Ttar for OU 2024), Gking, Torkoal, or even Hippo to beat this thing.
This is where things start to get unhealthy for Archaludon. If the main way to beat Archaludon is to quite literally win the weather war, how do you beat it when it's not the easiest thing to cripple rain structures severely, especially when Pelipper can roost off damage and pivot into strong breakers without using weather setter?
The answer is by using some pretty cope stuff. Stuff like manual sun Volcarona and Gouging Fire are some ways you can contest the weather war. Before I move on from this part, no, this isn't some sick tech that blows your mind or anything, it quite literally is so that you don't instalose to rain and can be pretty hard to justify outside of weather matchups, although it is possible I guess. The other way is by trading for the mon, which has a lot of nuance to it. If you trade a mon to wear it down, you should be able to capitalize on your momentum well: the issue is that once you trade for Archaludon (if you even do that, if it switches in on something that doesn't threaten it it can just get a kill at the cost of momentum only), you a) can't use it as setup fodder to punish it because rain mons are elite at revenge killing and b) might have lost a mon that was crucial to holding the fort against the other rain mons like Raging Bolt.
To put it into perspective, I believe the only reliable counterplay(s) to Archaludon are to try and wear it down and trade mons, arguing that with Archaludon gone, the game becomes a lot easier (it usually doesn't) or to enter the realm of weather wars, which, uh... okay they're kinda fun to play into but also extremely matchup fishy.
If I'm mentioning that Archaludon can force sacks which can open up other sweepers like Raging Bolt, you might be wondering "why not ban Raging Bolt" or something like that.
I think Raging Bolt has some of its own issues, still on the fence on if it should be banned or not, but that being set aside, Archaludon carries the rain structure in a way that it can support these high risk high reward with too good of a backbone that gets so much value for no reason. Go all the way since release to HOME meta, and you'd find that while rain is a scary ass playstyle, it's also got some issues, such as frailness. For example, a strong revenge killer like Dragonite could pick off rain teams with proper play. The issue with Archaludon is it nullifies that counterplay in a sense; yes, Dragonite is good against rain, but not if it can't reliably espeed into something like a Barraskewda, otherwise risking the game on the spot to an Archaludon swap. The overall bulk, paired with the fact that it's so strong, covers all of rain's flaws too well. Rain should have notable weaknesses like priority moves and an overall lack of defensive form, but Archaludon flips that on its head. I mention defensive form, but what I really mean is that Archaludon provides so much defensive utility for a mon that is far from do-nothing. Additionally, Archaludon is still quite stand-alone, it can still pick up 2 KOs easily even without necessarily breaking for some strong mon like Raging Bolt anyways.
Rain is a cool strat, and I really do like some of the old rain strats, such as this Maushold Rain by SetsuSetsuna from HOME meta (https://pokepast.es/f99a22475aec7718), but you can see its flaws aside from "win the weather war". It's strong, but it's really frail and can be dismantled if you can get off a vital attack (something which bounces off of Archaludon).
In my opinion, a good rain should be a structure that's strong but falls short in sustainability and ability to take hits; any bulky mons on the team should be relatively passive and should be utility for the most part (Ting-Lu, EB Hatterene), which goes against what Archaludon is by principle; a mon that takes way too many hits and deals way too much damage in return, leading to exchange-heavy gameplay when it comes to neutralizing the bridge.
Archaludon should be banned.
First and foremost for the many people bringing it up, tackling Rain itself does not get to the core of the problem. Barraskewda (and other Swift Swim users) were not often cited as problematic prior to DLC2, and neither was Rain itself. The playstyle was essentially defined by volatility. While it could delete many teams lacking in effective Water-type resists, the potency of Ogerpon-Wellspring and Tera Water in general has made it far easier for teams to adapt and respond to the archetype defensively if they can't afford a bulky Water-type. In addition to this, offense has insane tools like Kingambit and other strong priority options such as Rillaboom's Grassy Glide to weather the storm, in addition to Ogerpon itself. The style was an inconsistent archetype and often a matchup fish in practice, feeling even more like that in part because it was lacking in the perfect non-passive backbone that Ferrothorn was.
Now throw all of those issues out the window. The reason it is an issue now is because Archaludon is, honestly, the perfect Rain Pokemon. It addresses every issue the archetype had near perfectly, while also pushing an insane advantage by exploiting its inherently positive matchups via Electro Shot spam. This move has nearly 0 consequences in the Rain, bolsters your STAB moves, and yet also hits like a STAB move due to its secondary effect. The combination of its resistances, Stamina, and literally everything about Electro Shot make it a truly deluxe Pokemon that complements the Volt Switches and Flip Turns the structure has in its arsenal. It pairs super well with Pelipper defensively, and enables teammates by its ability to force skewed trades or serious damage. The style is the most consistent it's been in ages, and it's because of that that Rain is now an archetype that is not only threatening, but adaptable. I believe the whole package of Archaludon has already been talked to death about and I don't have too much more to add to that. But, there's one thing I want to put on the table that hasn't really come up yet.
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I would argue that Archaludon alongside Pelipper form such an absurdly synergistic core defensively and positionally by themselves that you don't even really need to adhere to the quintessential 5 you're used to seeing. As blasphemous as it might be to say, you might not need Raging Bolt or even Barraskewda either per se. Raging Bolt is one of the better components the structure has at its disposal and is a top tier choice for the most part, thanks to alleviating the pressure from Archaludon and being able to pressure Rain checks with its Electric-STAB and switch into them simultaneously. However, it is not required; you can gain the luxury of strong priority through other options like Kingambit, and strong Electric-type attackers through Zapdos or Thundurus-T. Furthermore, Archaludon is already excellent at filling Raging Bolt's offensive + defensive niche (aside from Thunderclap). As for other picks, replacing Barraskewda for another Swift Swim user is feasible with the right support. Iron Treads is the main exception; it feels pretty irreplaceable, but that doesn't really feel like an Achilles' Heel in practice due to how much raw role compression it has.
This team I built which drops Raging Bolt in favor of another Pokemon to supplement Rain, gave me an astonishing 25-0 winstreak in a decisive fashion, with RNG and my own poor play being why I fumbled on higher ladder before I got reqs. Archaludon Rain thrives on any form of support you can grant it, so long as it benefits the structure at large. Rillaboom is a common complement, for example, which not only provides pivoting support for Archaludon but also Grassy Terrain support to let Archaludon muscle past Earthquake users and give it residual recovery, which really adds up. While uncommon, Hisuian Samurott can be also good, providing a great Gholdengo and Kingambit check for the structure. It not only alleviates pressure into your own Archaludon but also packs Sacred Sword for Rain mirrors to more easily enable a Swift Swimmer of choice. And, of course, you can take advantage of Ceaseless Edge to make your cleaners even more deadly.
Those two aren't just all though, and that's just it. As Lily has said, you can sub out Barraskewda and Raging Bolt with a lot in spite of their optimal nature, giving Archaludon new avenues by which to be enabled while also being stupidly flexible itself. The list goes on: Kingambit, Greninja, Iron Crown, Tornadus-T, Ogerpon-Wellspring; Archaludon is so stupidly good at forcing advantageous trades, tanking hits that Rain normally detests, and dealing damage in general that its ability to overwhelm most non-Clodsire structures propels the structure into offensive consistency by ensuring it severely punishes you for any form of passivity. At best, it will still force trades or awkward pivots that will benefit the endgame of its teammates. The ability for Archaludon Rain to exist with the well-known quintet and still be absurd, but also have room to easily change and adapt, makes the style genuinely work at a high level.
Where this becomes problematic and treads into suspect territory, however, is the degree to which it casts ripple effects in the teambuilder. Bulkier structures have gotten far more popular, with Clodsire Semistall/Stall becoming ladder staples in recent weeks as the only real way to defensively check it and the insane amount of threats in the tier as well. Aside from Clodsire (and even then) there really isn't anything else that can rise to safely answer Archaludon that don't disparage you into other matchups. You are building with the idea of mitigating how much damage it can deal, and in the process, make your team more unstable holistically by shivving synergy. But even then, it is so easy to accentuate its stupid qualities and for Archaludon to find ways to enable its teammates so long as they benefit from Rain to some extent. It is another headache in the builder to consider, alongside the long list of threats to consider that essentially require concessions to be made. Archaludon Rain, however, commands more from you in the builder than most other things right now. Its synergy with Rain-oriented teammates lays out a truly absurd level of pressure that is not reasonable and through warping building patterns only makes this a more matchup oriented tier.
Rain is now effectively apart of the problem, and it is Archaludon's fault. Let's take a step forward toward stability by getting rid of it.
I think Archaludon is a Pokémon which punishes balance a bit too much in the builder. Rather common pivots that do well against weather, such as Chilly Reception Galarian Slowking, cannot even touch this mon with their normal sets.
This forces a notable level of adaptation. Let’s not troll ourselves and say Clodsire is a good mon to have on balance, it’s passive and useless and you would usually much rather have something else.
That said, it’s not difficult for Archaludon to adapt and beat its counters. At the beginning I was convinced you needed Unaware on Clodsire to beat it, and I was proved right because Leftovers Iron Defense sets (such as the one Niko played against Akalli yesterday) end up being untouchable for Clodsire anyway.
That set, or EQ for that matter which is a very bad move because it does nothing to Blissey, Ghold, Threads and such in my humble opinion, aren’t common. But they show that this is not necessarily a one dimensional mon, although its other sets end up being more counterable.
Versus balance/offense, Archaludon always ends up at least trading. Barely anything can OHKO it, it has a few moves it can spam to deal consistent damage to the entire tier and even if you predict Electro Shot by going on an immunity, the next attack will still be boosted.
Do I think Arch should be banned though? I am not sure. It certainly contributes to the polarization of the metagame, but Booster Energy / Broken mons spam offense needs to have some tougher matchups, it’s been unconditionally reigning over the metagame for so long now and that’s what truly makes this meta horrible. I think the true problem lies underneath and the solution is a little bit more radical than just banning a Pokémon or two. Nonetheless, I’ll wait to see whether balance manages to incorporate better answers if any are found, because I am genuinely worried for the playstyle’s viability.
This forces a notable level of adaptation. Let’s not troll ourselves and say Clodsire is a good mon to have on balance, it’s passive and useless and you would usually much rather have something else.
That said, it’s not difficult for Archaludon to adapt and beat its counters. At the beginning I was convinced you needed Unaware on Clodsire to beat it, and I was proved right because Leftovers Iron Defense sets (such as the one Niko played against Akalli yesterday) end up being untouchable for Clodsire anyway.
That set, or EQ for that matter which is a very bad move because it does nothing to Blissey, Ghold, Threads and such in my humble opinion, aren’t common. But they show that this is not necessarily a one dimensional mon, although its other sets end up being more counterable.
Versus balance/offense, Archaludon always ends up at least trading. Barely anything can OHKO it, it has a few moves it can spam to deal consistent damage to the entire tier and even if you predict Electro Shot by going on an immunity, the next attack will still be boosted.
Do I think Arch should be banned though? I am not sure. It certainly contributes to the polarization of the metagame, but Booster Energy / Broken mons spam offense needs to have some tougher matchups, it’s been unconditionally reigning over the metagame for so long now and that’s what truly makes this meta horrible. I think the true problem lies underneath and the solution is a little bit more radical than just banning a Pokémon or two. Nonetheless, I’ll wait to see whether balance manages to incorporate better answers if any are found, because I am genuinely worried for the playstyle’s viability.
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Did the Suspect, with a 36-6-1 result. Before the Suspect began, I thought Archaludon is not broken at all. After the Suspect I still think Archaludon is not broken at all, and neither is Rain as a whole. To be fair, my team was extremely well prepared vs Rain, to the point it was an auto-win match-up, even in battles in which I got haxed (frozen, crit or flinched) by some Rain threats. However, I didn,t design the team I used to be an auto-win vs Rain, it simply ended up being that way due to me preparing hard for other threats, such as the Paradox Johto Trio (Walking Wake, Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire), all of which are better in Sun than in Rain (yes, Raging Bolt too).
I had 6 loses and a Tie with the team I used. 3 loses were due to me having an Alomomola facing Waterpons and Volcanion. This is not Volcanion and Waterpon being broken, this is just Alomomola being an auto-lose vs them being well played, a risk everyone using Alomomola should value. Just like Rain was an auto-win match-up for me, those 2 Mons are auto-lose as long as the player using them has a brain.
2 loses were Gholdengo + Hazards predicting well my Spin attemts. Happens. And well, Gholdengo does restrict building a lot more than Rain ever will, but won,t dig more into it.
The last lose was me playing terribly, Tera'ing too early and being swept by Curse + 2 Attacks Dondozo. If I didn,t Tera early, it wouldn,t have happened, thats on me.
The Tie should have been a lose vs Gliscor + Alomomola + Hydrapple balanced core. My way of breaking the core got Flame Bodied (the only good thing Gliscor dioes in this meta is making Heatran rare, fuck that Mon) early game, so I couldn,t break it. They would have eventually defeated me but I convinced my opponent that it would take 300 or 400 turns to do, therefore a Tie and not a Lose.
Back to the main thread, its undeniable that Archaludon has made Rain 10 times better than it used to be, being a very relevant playstyle currently. Its also true that Archaludon is the best Rain abuser. However, I fail to see Rain being broken as a style, with or without Archaludon. I failed to see it in this Suspect, I failed to see it in the previous Suspect, I failed to see this in the ladder prior to Kyurem Suspect and I failed to see it in Round 1 of OST, where opponent brought a Rain only to be demolished by my Kyurem.
Kyurem stayed, and it will stay at least for a while now. So, it has been established a legit OU Mon, not an Uber one. So, its legit to talk about it being a very viable counterplay to Rain, several Kyurem sets (Specs, Boots and Sub + Protect) completely destroy the playstyle if well played.
Clodsire is another very mentioned Mon in this thread. People say that it restricts teambuilding and I agree, just not to the degree people say. Its very possible to build a Balance team with Clodsire, I have done it multiple times. Pretty sure you can even throw 5 offensive Mons + Clodsire and it will work too, you just need to pick the right 5 Mons. This Mon is not only for Stall and never was. This Mon also is not meant to just use Toxic and Amnesia, you can put Hazards with it, it has the right 2 abilities to stop many broken threats, its not just an Anti-Rain Mon. Its totally a valid Mon to use in a big variety of teams, it doesn,t exist purely to counter Rain.
Weather is another good counterplay to Rain. Glowking won,t be beating Archaludon itself, but will change the weather and paired with a good breaker (such as Zamazenta, which by itself lives everything that Archaludon throws) will apply pressure on the Rain team, forcing Pelipper to take damage. Because its Pelipper the Mon you have to take down to beat Rain, not Archaludon.
Using Alolan Ninetales, Tyranitar or Hippo Sand is a bit going out of your way, I can agree with that. However using Sun is not, and I consider Sun to be the best weather currently, the one with more bannable Mons. Its not the easiest match-up, but Sun teams do have more than enough options to deal with Rain as a whole, starting with Walking Wake and Raging Bolt, who just throw strong DMs or their respective STABs.
Hazards also pressure Rain threats a lot, most of them don,t bring Boots. Yes, there is an Iron Treads that will be spinning, but you either Tera Ghost some Mon, bring something like Sinitcha or predict well with Balloon Gholdengo to avoid that.
Volcanion is not a OU Mon. But Volcanion leads vs Pelipper, uses Sub, Tera Grounds and will get 1 kill minimum, you will have the upper hand from there. Archaludon might do a lot with DM, but you can avoid it and it won,t be taking Volcanion hits well.
Ting-Lu, Waterpon, Tera Grass Garnanacl/Glowking, Specs DM users in general, Deoxys-Speed with several sets, Protect Mons to Stall Rain turns, etc. I see more than enough counterplay to Rain.
Really, don,t know what to add at this point. I just haven,t seen the chaos Rain is supposed to be at all, with or without Archaludon. Its just one more playstyle you have to prepare for, it isn,t even the best weather in my opinion. I used 6 OU Mons in this Suspect, I didn,t use Stall, I didn,t use other weather, I didn,t go out of my way just to counter Rain. The team was extremely well prepared vs Rain, but there were just 6 OU Mons, 3 offensive, 3 defensive, the definition of Balance. Neither in this Suspect, nor before it, I saw the destruction everyone is talking about. If you really want to nerf Rain, Suspect Raging Bolt, but not even due to the threat it poses in Rain itself (big, but not entirely broken), but due to its Sun and Spikes offense potential. I will be voting DO NOT BAN, suggest doing the same to everyone reading this and won,t be posting again in this thread no matter what answer comes.
I had 6 loses and a Tie with the team I used. 3 loses were due to me having an Alomomola facing Waterpons and Volcanion. This is not Volcanion and Waterpon being broken, this is just Alomomola being an auto-lose vs them being well played, a risk everyone using Alomomola should value. Just like Rain was an auto-win match-up for me, those 2 Mons are auto-lose as long as the player using them has a brain.
2 loses were Gholdengo + Hazards predicting well my Spin attemts. Happens. And well, Gholdengo does restrict building a lot more than Rain ever will, but won,t dig more into it.
The last lose was me playing terribly, Tera'ing too early and being swept by Curse + 2 Attacks Dondozo. If I didn,t Tera early, it wouldn,t have happened, thats on me.
The Tie should have been a lose vs Gliscor + Alomomola + Hydrapple balanced core. My way of breaking the core got Flame Bodied (the only good thing Gliscor dioes in this meta is making Heatran rare, fuck that Mon) early game, so I couldn,t break it. They would have eventually defeated me but I convinced my opponent that it would take 300 or 400 turns to do, therefore a Tie and not a Lose.
Back to the main thread, its undeniable that Archaludon has made Rain 10 times better than it used to be, being a very relevant playstyle currently. Its also true that Archaludon is the best Rain abuser. However, I fail to see Rain being broken as a style, with or without Archaludon. I failed to see it in this Suspect, I failed to see it in the previous Suspect, I failed to see this in the ladder prior to Kyurem Suspect and I failed to see it in Round 1 of OST, where opponent brought a Rain only to be demolished by my Kyurem.
Kyurem stayed, and it will stay at least for a while now. So, it has been established a legit OU Mon, not an Uber one. So, its legit to talk about it being a very viable counterplay to Rain, several Kyurem sets (Specs, Boots and Sub + Protect) completely destroy the playstyle if well played.
Clodsire is another very mentioned Mon in this thread. People say that it restricts teambuilding and I agree, just not to the degree people say. Its very possible to build a Balance team with Clodsire, I have done it multiple times. Pretty sure you can even throw 5 offensive Mons + Clodsire and it will work too, you just need to pick the right 5 Mons. This Mon is not only for Stall and never was. This Mon also is not meant to just use Toxic and Amnesia, you can put Hazards with it, it has the right 2 abilities to stop many broken threats, its not just an Anti-Rain Mon. Its totally a valid Mon to use in a big variety of teams, it doesn,t exist purely to counter Rain.
Weather is another good counterplay to Rain. Glowking won,t be beating Archaludon itself, but will change the weather and paired with a good breaker (such as Zamazenta, which by itself lives everything that Archaludon throws) will apply pressure on the Rain team, forcing Pelipper to take damage. Because its Pelipper the Mon you have to take down to beat Rain, not Archaludon.
Using Alolan Ninetales, Tyranitar or Hippo Sand is a bit going out of your way, I can agree with that. However using Sun is not, and I consider Sun to be the best weather currently, the one with more bannable Mons. Its not the easiest match-up, but Sun teams do have more than enough options to deal with Rain as a whole, starting with Walking Wake and Raging Bolt, who just throw strong DMs or their respective STABs.
Hazards also pressure Rain threats a lot, most of them don,t bring Boots. Yes, there is an Iron Treads that will be spinning, but you either Tera Ghost some Mon, bring something like Sinitcha or predict well with Balloon Gholdengo to avoid that.
Volcanion is not a OU Mon. But Volcanion leads vs Pelipper, uses Sub, Tera Grounds and will get 1 kill minimum, you will have the upper hand from there. Archaludon might do a lot with DM, but you can avoid it and it won,t be taking Volcanion hits well.
Ting-Lu, Waterpon, Tera Grass Garnanacl/Glowking, Specs DM users in general, Deoxys-Speed with several sets, Protect Mons to Stall Rain turns, etc. I see more than enough counterplay to Rain.
Really, don,t know what to add at this point. I just haven,t seen the chaos Rain is supposed to be at all, with or without Archaludon. Its just one more playstyle you have to prepare for, it isn,t even the best weather in my opinion. I used 6 OU Mons in this Suspect, I didn,t use Stall, I didn,t use other weather, I didn,t go out of my way just to counter Rain. The team was extremely well prepared vs Rain, but there were just 6 OU Mons, 3 offensive, 3 defensive, the definition of Balance. Neither in this Suspect, nor before it, I saw the destruction everyone is talking about. If you really want to nerf Rain, Suspect Raging Bolt, but not even due to the threat it poses in Rain itself (big, but not entirely broken), but due to its Sun and Spikes offense potential. I will be voting DO NOT BAN, suggest doing the same to everyone reading this and won,t be posting again in this thread no matter what answer comes.
see spl week 3 replays. big part of this is clodsire being good into arch and clodsire best fitting on stall
Clodsire went from 2.5% usage to 20% usage and being firmly within the top 10. This isn’t a coincidence.
Its not stall in particular thats good against it, its just Clodsire which is always on stall, so yeah.
Here´s a list of Pro-Ban and Anti-Ban arguments for those undecided like me:
Pro-Ban:
-Notable Lack of Hard Counters
-Lack of Pokemon That can OHKO Archaludon and effectively force it out withouth a trade-off.
-Combination of 600 BST with a very Strong typing.
-Capacity to take advantage of 2 field-conditions (Rain and Grassy Terrain) for a substantial advantage.
Anti-Ban:
-Solid Defensive profile that limits Kingambit´s dominance in the metagame.
-Notably dependant on Rain/Grassy Terrain being active.
-Vulnerability to Spikes, paired with lack of recovery.
-Dual Stabs being resisted by Steel, enhancing the need for Body Press / Electro Shot predictions.
In Summary, this Pokemon feels a lot like Gen 8 Melmetal, a bulky all-rounded high BST Steel type that takes advantage of both Rain and Grassy Terrain, with the main differences being the capacity to boost it´s Special Attack via Electro Shot, unlike Melmetal, but being more dependant on Rain being active to do so. We must also not forget that Pelliper and Archaludon perfectly cover each other´s weaknesses, and that this Pokemon resists Grass and Electric, the main types rain is weak to. This raises another Comparison, Archaludon can be seen as a replacement for Ferrothorn in Rain, with the main difference being that, instead of spamming Hazards and Knock Off, it spams Stab Draco Meteors and Flash Cannons. Both of these comparisons make Archaludon feel like a step-up to both gen 8 Ferrothorn and Melmetal, but we must not forget that overall Power Creep in OU affected multiple gen 9 Pokemon that ended up being considered balanced and legal in OU.
Pro-Ban:
-Notable Lack of Hard Counters
-Lack of Pokemon That can OHKO Archaludon and effectively force it out withouth a trade-off.
-Combination of 600 BST with a very Strong typing.
-Capacity to take advantage of 2 field-conditions (Rain and Grassy Terrain) for a substantial advantage.
Anti-Ban:
-Solid Defensive profile that limits Kingambit´s dominance in the metagame.
-Notably dependant on Rain/Grassy Terrain being active.
-Vulnerability to Spikes, paired with lack of recovery.
-Dual Stabs being resisted by Steel, enhancing the need for Body Press / Electro Shot predictions.
In Summary, this Pokemon feels a lot like Gen 8 Melmetal, a bulky all-rounded high BST Steel type that takes advantage of both Rain and Grassy Terrain, with the main differences being the capacity to boost it´s Special Attack via Electro Shot, unlike Melmetal, but being more dependant on Rain being active to do so. We must also not forget that Pelliper and Archaludon perfectly cover each other´s weaknesses, and that this Pokemon resists Grass and Electric, the main types rain is weak to. This raises another Comparison, Archaludon can be seen as a replacement for Ferrothorn in Rain, with the main difference being that, instead of spamming Hazards and Knock Off, it spams Stab Draco Meteors and Flash Cannons. Both of these comparisons make Archaludon feel like a step-up to both gen 8 Ferrothorn and Melmetal, but we must not forget that overall Power Creep in OU affected multiple gen 9 Pokemon that ended up being considered balanced and legal in OU.
Not going to make a 6 paragraphs text again but actually u don’t need to make predictions to click Electro Shot as it still boost SpA and ur opponent wouldn’t risk to Hard switch Tusk who’s actually the only thing that can really force Archa to switch out if no Tera while being immunized to EShot (well actually he can try to predict if he doesn’t have défensive counter plays ig …)
Comparing Archaludon to Melmetal is flawed. Melmetal is slow without the secondary STAB and it frequently takes a ton of recoil from Barbs and Helmet. Archaludon is stronger with far fewer switchins and its bulk snowballs. I really think these type of comparisons are only doing a disservice as there are so many different things within the profiles of both Pokemon and their respective metagames.
will be voting ban and I don’t particularly see a valid argument to the contrary.
forces bulky offense and balance to run red card ting or unaclod which are both quite hard to justify in this meta as they generate a lot of free entry for glis/ho mainstays like landot. ho and stall can “handle” it but if you have given any significant thought to the meta then you will realize “ho” and “stall” are so broad that they can cover most things and you shouldnt be locked into two playstyles.
arch is obviously the problematic element of rain. rain lacks a consistent breaker without arch, raging bolt is like fine but actually susceptible to being revenge killed unlike arch and has numerous other shortcomings (weird typing to find entry points, cannot come in multiple times, rain’s boons dont carry with it outside of rain unlike arch, etc.) relative to arch. rain is just very reliant on running into few/poor water resists without arch and will probably return to its predlc2 status as the worst weather without arch.
forces bulky offense and balance to run red card ting or unaclod which are both quite hard to justify in this meta as they generate a lot of free entry for glis/ho mainstays like landot. ho and stall can “handle” it but if you have given any significant thought to the meta then you will realize “ho” and “stall” are so broad that they can cover most things and you shouldnt be locked into two playstyles.
arch is obviously the problematic element of rain. rain lacks a consistent breaker without arch, raging bolt is like fine but actually susceptible to being revenge killed unlike arch and has numerous other shortcomings (weird typing to find entry points, cannot come in multiple times, rain’s boons dont carry with it outside of rain unlike arch, etc.) relative to arch. rain is just very reliant on running into few/poor water resists without arch and will probably return to its predlc2 status as the worst weather without arch.
Saying that its STABs being resisted by Steel is bad for it, is a bad analysis IMO. For starters, it is absolutely not reliant on predicting Steel-Type switch-ins. If Kingambit switches in, you eat Sucker and then kill it back, or threaten massive damage either way; if it came in on any other attack, your Body Press extremely likely kills:
252+ SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 80-94 (23.4 - 27.5%) -- 75.3% chance to 4HKO
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even one spike is the difference between this being a range and Kingambit literally just dying 100% of the time. Flash Cannon is also the weakest move for this, Electro Shot does 60% at +0
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One thing that is notable about Gen 9 is we actually don't have that many Steel-Types that cover more passive and defensive roles. Next up is Gholdengo, which I will calc offensive Air Balloon, because that is the best set.
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 163-192 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 127-150 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
At best you trade your Gholdengo for 68-80% on the Archaludon.
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon in Rain: 63-75 (16.9 - 20.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after trapping damage
+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 204-242 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also loses to Archaludon.
252 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 188-224 (50.5 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Archaludon loses to Treads one-on-one, but also the best teamstyle for Iron Treads is Rain. Outside of Rain, Iron Treads is not good in my opinion. The other Steel-Types are Skarmory, Corviknight (both clipped by Electro Shot), Excadrill and your own Archaludon (not a good idea).
So, Steel-Types are generally not a problem at all for it.
Another thing is that Archaludon is absolutely not playing a similar role to Ferrothorn. And that it is not that similar to Melmetal. For one, Archaludon is not actually slow. This may be hard to believe considering the SV OU general thoughts on speed, but Archaludon outspeeds a lot of the Pokemon in the metagame. It is only outspeed by some other offensive threats which it generally also, at worst, trades with. Melmetal sometimes was being outsped by defensive Pokemon. Another thing is that Melmetal's Thunder Punch did not give it +1 Attack in the Rain, and Melmetal is a Physical Attacker.
Special Attacks are literally just harder to check than Physical Attackers. No Intimidate, no Rocky Helmet, no Will-o-Wisp, no bitches. You will not be switching Landorus-T into Archaludon and lowering its offensive output. Archaludon instead is tanking your Earthquake, gaining +1 Defense and doing this
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 158-188 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 408-481 (106.8 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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There you go, this is the real problem with Archaludon. It's not as obvious at the moment because the metagame is wildly shifted towards extremes (the HO, weather or not), and the bulkier teams with at most two threats. There are teams that find themselves in between but they're not as common to find from my recent ladder experience.
Archaludon's ability greatly punishes pivoting and the usual trickery one would find themselves required to try, leaving more pivotal gameplay extremely prone to being punished by a Pokemon's sheer qualities. You can't try to predict a double switch, you can't try to chip it, you can only hard switch something or accept that you're sacking something. This would be fine if we were talking about a slower pokemon or a utility pokemon, but a wallbreaker faster than Hoopa-U? Not good.
Keep in mind Archaludon's weaker side is bulkier than Hoopa-U's as well, and it doesn't have a 4x weakness to U-turn. In fact, it resists pretty much any pivotal attack move I can remember.
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Your point is fair, but I still think we both reach the conclusion that it needs to predict Excadrill, Gholdengo and Iron Treads to effectively win the 1v1. Add Heatran to that list, if you are running body press instead of earthquake. (Also, I´m not a big Gholdengo fan rn, but Im pretty sure they run HP investment.)
No. If Gholdengo switches in on Body Press, Archaludon still wins the 1v1. Excadrill is straight up a Pokemon that is falling to UU at some point, please be serious y'alls, but it actually has a way worse MU than Iron Treads:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 270-318 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 326-384 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
It just loses the 1v1 every time.
and Iron Treads is literally only good on the playstyle that is carried by Archaludon.
Heatran also loses. I showed this.
Gholdengo still loses with HP investment.
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 154-182 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Heatran at the very least can chip archaludon immensly. It may not be the best matchup, but you were showing magma storm, which you probably wouldn't spam into rain anyway.
Archaludon is not him.
I don't think Archaludon is either unbalanced or underwhelming.
It doesn't work on non rain structures at all, just like barraskewda, kingdra (who still uses him) and so on.
He also weak to every hazard ever, doesn't have longevity like some other bulky mons that can run boots. I haven't seen boots Archaludon, just AV, so u always take spike and rocks (and web), which is rough
However, I don't like this Pokemon because the only team I can play with is German 6 which kinda loses to Archaludon so im gonna vote ban even though I don't think it's not balanced.
I don't think Archaludon is either unbalanced or underwhelming.
It doesn't work on non rain structures at all, just like barraskewda, kingdra (who still uses him) and so on.
He also weak to every hazard ever, doesn't have longevity like some other bulky mons that can run boots. I haven't seen boots Archaludon, just AV, so u always take spike and rocks (and web), which is rough
However, I don't like this Pokemon because the only team I can play with is German 6 which kinda loses to Archaludon so im gonna vote ban even though I don't think it's not balanced.
Idk what you're talking about. Archaludon is a steel type and takes 6% from stealth rock. As for spikes, being able to prevent being OHKO by a special attack due to having AV is better than any potential chip without HDB
Edit: nvm misread
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the post says it doesn't work on non rain structures
I will be voting Ban on Archaludon.
Going into the suspect, my initial impression of Archaludon was its oppresive and restrictive impact on the metagame, I blamed it almost entirely for the rain-warped meta and did not appreciate this one bit. It often seemed to force at least two kills, and I found myself using cores on balance that I seldom use - be it Clodsire, Ting-Lu or Spdef SD Gliscor. However, after forcing myself to play in this meta with just a bit more team preparedness for Arch, I did find some success against it, especially coupled with a rain favoured matchup. It did not seem overly overpowered or broken as intially advertised albeit with the right counterplay.
However, I do not believe that the dominance of rain will shift without the exit of the bridge. The pressure that Archaludon puts on balance structures will prevent the development of this metagame. It's ability to pick its counters, though not unseen before in a metagame with tera, is more significant and immediately impactful than that offered by other threats like Volcarona and Gambit. I do not believe Archaludon in rain is a cyclical trend which will subside over time; anything less than a ban would mean rain is here to stay. And though what constitutes an "ideal metagame" is open to interpretation, a rain-warped meta where balance is heavily limited for choice isn't my cup of tea. Archaludon encourages stall, exacerbates matchup dominance and in general puts too much pressure on the builder for my liking. Close the bridge and ban Arch.
Going into the suspect, my initial impression of Archaludon was its oppresive and restrictive impact on the metagame, I blamed it almost entirely for the rain-warped meta and did not appreciate this one bit. It often seemed to force at least two kills, and I found myself using cores on balance that I seldom use - be it Clodsire, Ting-Lu or Spdef SD Gliscor. However, after forcing myself to play in this meta with just a bit more team preparedness for Arch, I did find some success against it, especially coupled with a rain favoured matchup. It did not seem overly overpowered or broken as intially advertised albeit with the right counterplay.
However, I do not believe that the dominance of rain will shift without the exit of the bridge. The pressure that Archaludon puts on balance structures will prevent the development of this metagame. It's ability to pick its counters, though not unseen before in a metagame with tera, is more significant and immediately impactful than that offered by other threats like Volcarona and Gambit. I do not believe Archaludon in rain is a cyclical trend which will subside over time; anything less than a ban would mean rain is here to stay. And though what constitutes an "ideal metagame" is open to interpretation, a rain-warped meta where balance is heavily limited for choice isn't my cup of tea. Archaludon encourages stall, exacerbates matchup dominance and in general puts too much pressure on the builder for my liking. Close the bridge and ban Arch.
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This is true but I don't think it's crazy to think that Arch has basically single-handedly made Rain the best team structure right now in the meta.
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