You missed roaring moon, but I agree with your general points. If something breaks tera, it's easy to spot as the mon is mostly required to tera, but that isn't an issue because tera'ing with that mon is so amazing that it is absolutely worth it. One thing I do disagree with is valiant as after DLC1 dropped, i'd say that valiant complaints kinda ceased because while the set variety is nice, you usually choose a few moves from its list as stuff like tera water liquidation is not as viable as standard sets. Valiant is still an amazing mon, but I don't think it is banworthy anymore.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Im passing by (sorry, one liner) saying that in 40% of games tera is wasted to a bad anticipation
Imo rain isn’t that overpowered right now, because its breakers can be played around, and more defensive teams can survive the seven turns. Rain also has basically zero defensive mons except for arch and pelipper (which aren’t that stellar) and Tera water gking completely obliterates rain AND sun, which imo keeps both in check as gking is really good and easy to fit on anything that isn’t HO. Regenerator also makes it hard to wear down and this makes gking super good against rain and sun in generaI. I do agree that a damp rock suspect should go before an archaludon one though.
Heavily defensive tusk is a great check to gouging, although it is pretty hard to fit into teams sometimes. Also, consider adding Tera water gking on your team if you’re having trouble with sun since it with Tera water improves your sun and rain matchup by a lot, as well as empowering your breakers and enabling Kyurem to run blizzard.
In a vacuum, yes, the breakers can be played around. However, combined, they are very difficult to wall. Both arch and barra, the two main rain staples, have very different counters which means that they force a counter to one being sent in while the other abuser gets sent in. It's not impossible to play around, but it is extremely difficult to position correctly. Also, tera water glowking loses to arch 1v1, as it can't do much damage to arch and becomes set up fodder due to electro shot. A simple scenario would be barra force gking to tera, which arch can use to fire off super effective electro shots.
On another note, I've found tera water assault vest sandy shocks to be great against sun and rain as well, super underrated set/mon.
Gking is slower than pelipper, so if they lead with that, you can just use chilly reception and get rid of their rain while simultaneously pivoting in a breaker. You can also bring it in on a choiced attacker and get a free chilly reception off, and it can do this many times a game. I wasn’t saying that it auto wins rain, but it definitely boosts that matchup by quite a bit.
You're right that it does, but rain usually has the tools to beat gking, so it can be a bit difficult to do. It's like how gking can technically beat kyurem, because while it is a great check to kyurem, it is better for just pivoting around it. That's what gking does, you could say that for everything besides stall, it takes a hit, switches out, and positions you better. You still have to position your team around rain, so there is that.
True, but it def does help out against rain. IMO any balance team with gking should be pretty good into rain as well as it is built around gking and breakers well enough.
It's kinda amazing how much gking is helping the tier. It counters rain, sun, kyurem and anything else with the right tera. This mon is amazing, and it only has 490 bst while its highest stat is 110 in sp.A and sp.Defense. It should not be as great as it is, but yet it is, and I'm all for it.
Yeah decent bulk combined with future sight+slack off and regenerator along with slow chilly receptions is so good. I think that it's very healthy for the tier right now as it keep a lot of top mons and playstyles in check.
I fully agree with everything you've said here, but the issue with banning tera now is that the metagame has shaped around it. Like other people have said, the lack of a "panic button" means that the metagame becomes 100% matchup fishing instead of the 50% matchup fishing it is now. While I personally dislike Tera, I think banning it now would lead to metagame collapse, at least 4 or 5 more bans, and we'd have to spend months getting it to a playable state. Do I hate Tera? Yes. Do I think we should've just banned/restricted it at the beginning so we wouldn't have a matchup fish in the first place? Yes. Do I think it's worth regressing months of tiering action and spending months more to get a stable teraless metagame? No.
Also, this is just an opinion, but I think using "tiering policy" as an argument is kinda useless. We've had SOOO many examples of conflicting tiering policy that people can just pick and choose what tiering decision they want to use to support their argument instead of the other way around. An example: in the recent sleep discussion, people got into grandfathering arguments, sleep moves clauses in OMs, tiering policy regarding Shed Tail and Rage Fist, OHKO moves, freeze clause in adv, parafusion and other such 'hax', disparities in forcing sleep moves via encore/choice items, Tera precedent, etc. Both sides used these arguments, so you really just had to go through and decide which arguments you wanted to consider valid, which mainly came down to personal preference. I'm not innocent of it either, I definitely partook in that discussion, but it's just something to be aware of.
As I said before, I would argue Archaludon is the one that broke Rain.
Post-Perma Rain teams have been good since Gen 7. Either Mega Pert and Manaphy in USUM or Barra and Toad in SS. However there was available counterplay. Bulky water resists like Ferro, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini were always accessible. Gen 8 also had Port Slowbro and Rillaboom, the latter of had a priority Grass move and could snipe Ferro with Superpower or Drain Punch. Alot of these teams incorporated Ferrothorn to respond to them, but Ferro wasn’t exactly an offensive threat despite making amazing progress with hazards and Knock.
Even with Tera and new abusers like Basculegion, Rain never entered broken territory, in fact it was quite bad in DLC1 when Wogre was so common. Archaludon though is what would happen if Ferrothron was hard to switch into, and gained a defense boost everytime it got hit.
Archaludon patches up all the issues Rain has while being an immense threat itself. It’s synergy with Barraskewda is perfect, too perfect. Arch’s main checks are bulky grounds like Ting-Lu and Unaware Clod. Since these switch ins are easily telegraphed, they can simply double switch into Barra. If they swap to their water resist, you just Flip Turn back into Archaludon.
It would be fine if Clodsire could simply run Water Absorb, but it needs Unaware because it could rack up Electro Shot boosts and kill with Draco since Clodsire barely scratches it with EQ. Electro Shot still increases SpA vs Ground types because Game Freak is stupid. So that limits your checks to Ting-Lu and Treads who invite in Barra anyways.
Arch is just way too bulky. The odds of offensive Tusk OHKOing Archaludon with Headlong Rush or Close Combat after rocks are less than 50%.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 314-372 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Zamazenta could barely muster a kill.
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 296-350 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is what happens when you make a Pokemon with Stamina and 90/130 physical bulk only weak to two mostly physical attacking types.
The only things that are killing it is something like an Aura Sphere from Specs Val which btw, can’t switch in whatsoever. You gotta bring it in with Gking who btw, has a chance to die to Draco after an Electro Shot.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (after getting hit by Electro Shot)
So yeah, Archaludon is actually fucking stupid. Even if you do manage to get in that Valiant, there’s always the off-chance it will just Terastilize in front of you. Now you got a dead Valiant and a raging, cracked up bridge that will snowball your whole team.
TL;DR: Fuck Archaludon.
Post-Perma Rain teams have been good since Gen 7. Either Mega Pert and Manaphy in USUM or Barra and Toad in SS. However there was available counterplay. Bulky water resists like Ferro, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini were always accessible. Gen 8 also had Port Slowbro and Rillaboom, the latter of had a priority Grass move and could snipe Ferro with Superpower or Drain Punch. Alot of these teams incorporated Ferrothorn to respond to them, but Ferro wasn’t exactly an offensive threat despite making amazing progress with hazards and Knock.
Even with Tera and new abusers like Basculegion, Rain never entered broken territory, in fact it was quite bad in DLC1 when Wogre was so common. Archaludon though is what would happen if Ferrothron was hard to switch into, and gained a defense boost everytime it got hit.
Archaludon patches up all the issues Rain has while being an immense threat itself. It’s synergy with Barraskewda is perfect, too perfect. Arch’s main checks are bulky grounds like Ting-Lu and Unaware Clod. Since these switch ins are easily telegraphed, they can simply double switch into Barra. If they swap to their water resist, you just Flip Turn back into Archaludon.
It would be fine if Clodsire could simply run Water Absorb, but it needs Unaware because it could rack up Electro Shot boosts and kill with Draco since Clodsire barely scratches it with EQ. Electro Shot still increases SpA vs Ground types because Game Freak is stupid. So that limits your checks to Ting-Lu and Treads who invite in Barra anyways.
Arch is just way too bulky. The odds of offensive Tusk OHKOing Archaludon with Headlong Rush or Close Combat after rocks are less than 50%.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 314-372 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Zamazenta could barely muster a kill.
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 296-350 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is what happens when you make a Pokemon with Stamina and 90/130 physical bulk only weak to two mostly physical attacking types.
The only things that are killing it is something like an Aura Sphere from Specs Val which btw, can’t switch in whatsoever. You gotta bring it in with Gking who btw, has a chance to die to Draco after an Electro Shot.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (after getting hit by Electro Shot)
So yeah, Archaludon is actually fucking stupid. Even if you do manage to get in that Valiant, there’s always the off-chance it will just Terastilize in front of you. Now you got a dead Valiant and a raging, cracked up bridge that will snowball your whole team.
TL;DR: Fuck Archaludon.
even better idea; let's unban Rayquaza. That would clearly solve the weather issue! Air lock would be everywhere and you have a natural fire and water resist on your team always!
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Lets unban Groudon and Kyogre while we're at it. Surely they'll be balanced with Rayquaza being there to negate their abilities!
j0nathan
formerly trainer_j0nathan
Wait, Kyurem is already in the Tier. Does that mean we can also unban Reshiram and Zekrom? Beautiful!
They'll probably be very balanced
seriously bros? metagame discussion is not the most dumb suggestion competition.
dont come after me with stones for cancelling your club
(Elec-ant1234 it was a joke, sorry, its hard to convey non-obvious humour in writing.)
Also, 658Greninja, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-lure-that-threat-week-33-kingambit.3712577/page-31 and https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-victim-of-the-week-week-40-av-archaludon.3713007/page-40 are fun, both are AV arch lures/counters to be. None are perfect, but... try them.
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i really hope this is satire cause if it isn't, then the future is bleakseriously bros? metagame discussion is not the most dumb suggestion competition.
dont come after me with stones for cancelling your club
this may come as a surprise, and I sure hope this IS satire and i'm just waffling, but jokes exist, and people can suggest things... as a joke
(although frighteningly, the first one may be real)
Prankster Tailwind + slow U-Turn to unleash the true power of Brambleghast or Shiftry.
I'd also argue Terapagos-Stellar functions more akin to a Mega given it gains a sizable BST increase alongside the ability change, so it's hard to say if it proves Tera is broken at large since it gains completely different benefits from pressing the button's mechanic.
Just play the VaporeMons ladder Rain isn't broken there
Oneliner aside, how is our current line of thinking on Gholdengo and hazards in general? From what I have gathered Deoxys-Speed has settled into it's role and offensive variants are performing better than expected. Do we still think Deo is a heavy talking point in the hazard stacking discourse, and do we still think Ghold is still too potent of hazard deterrent rn?
Oneliner aside, how is our current line of thinking on Gholdengo and hazards in general? From what I have gathered Deoxys-Speed has settled into it's role and offensive variants are performing better than expected. Do we still think Deo is a heavy talking point in the hazard stacking discourse, and do we still think Ghold is still too potent of hazard deterrent rn?
Ghold is definitely too potent at spinblocking and defog blocking. Banning it I think helps more defoggers and spinners at least have a shot at viability other than the ones that threaten gholdJust play the VaporeMons ladder Rain isn't broken there
Oneliner aside, how is our current line of thinking on Gholdengo and hazards in general? From what I have gathered Deoxys-Speed has settled into it's role and offensive variants are performing better than expected. Do we still think Deo is a heavy talking point in the hazard stacking discourse, and do we still think Ghold is still too potent of hazard deterrent rn?
I’ve seen an extreme uptick of Corviknight usage on ladder as of late, meaning people are starting to fear Gholdengo less. I’ve also have been see Gholdengo less too.Just play the VaporeMons ladder Rain isn't broken there
Oneliner aside, how is our current line of thinking on Gholdengo and hazards in general? From what I have gathered Deoxys-Speed has settled into it's role and offensive variants are performing better than expected. Do we still think Deo is a heavy talking point in the hazard stacking discourse, and do we still think Ghold is still too potent of hazard deterrent rn?
I think we should probably fix up this current meta before doing stuff like suspecting tera and then depending on results suspecting stuff like Zama-C and Lugia down here since those are the main two who come up for retests, since they won't even have a shot at being balanced in a tera meta.
I don't think we need to press the reset button on the meta yet, as banning tera would essentially do that
Haven’t been to this thread in a while, but here’s what I see with the meta so far:
- I’m fine with Sleep being gone. I’ve never really disliked the mechanic, but I agree that it is kinda bullshit at times especially when given to stuff that’s really fast (Valiant, Darkrai). I’ll miss running slainey’s funny RNG team though.
- Weather is really powerful rn. Gouging Fire Sun is scary thanks to the thing having great bulk, an amazing defensive typing and Morning Sun while being a Protosynthesis sweeper. Rain is also really good thanks to it finally having the Steel-type tank it never knew it wanted in Archaludon to the point where people are starting to find it a pain in the ass to play around. I agree that it’s quite easy to get it into a winning position too and can be pretty overwhelming to deal with.
- Kyurem is a pain to play around since both the Specs and Dragon Dance sets can fit onto the same teamstyles. Also helps that the Dragon Dance set is better than last gen this time around with this gen being more offensively oriented. Scale Shot + Loaded Dice seems a bit noob-baity to me because of Kingambit having an easier time revenge-killing it, but I can definitely see it working well with Veil+Snow support. I felt it wasn’t worth banning last gen, but I can see why the council’s concerned about it this time around.
- Roaring Moon and Volcarona still do the exact same things as they did before and just as well. Although they don’t seem as overwhelming atm, I could definitely see them being problems later on.
- CleaveQuake Iron Boulder with Taunt seems like a nice stallbreaker/pinch anti-lead that can shut down Iron Defense Skarm/Corv and prevent Screens Deo-S from doing much while matching up very well into Torkoal and Pelipper. It also happens to crush Cinderace which is pretty nice. Great Tusk is a pain in the ass for it though. Pretty solid set regardless.
- Please get Kingambit out this tier istg it cannot co-exist alongside Tera. Literally nothing has changed with this mon and how broken it is.
- I’d also be happy to see Tera go in any future suspect on the mechanic. You shouldn’t be able to counter Zamazenta with Kingambit or set up on Rillaboom with Manaphy. Or set up on Great Tusk with Gouging Fire by turning into a goddamn Flying type.