We have yet to see when we see their new movepools
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Rillaboom sometimes 2HKOing Zapdos with not very effective banded stab: awww you're nice
Solgaleo sometimes 2HKOing Zapdos with neutral banded STAB: hello, Human Resources?
Solgaleo sometimes 2HKOing Zapdos with neutral banded STAB: hello, Human Resources?
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The calc in question was Psychic Fangs I don't know why you keep bringing up Sunsteel Strike
Zapdos actually has almost the same chance of missing the Hurricane as Solgaleo has of actually getting the 2HKO on Zapdos
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speculating on dropping ubers is fun but i just don't think anything with cover legendary stats + a giant movepool can be balanced in ou. you can point to mons who can hit similar numbers or run similar sets but the fact solgaleo has the stats and moves to reasonably be choice band or a calm mind sweeper is just completely stupid. its just an enormous stat stick that can do whatever it wants and also tera exists so you can't even really pick on its typing that hard.
Because Banded Solgaleo is not a "sometimes" 2HKO with Psychic Fangs on any Zapdos, so Sunsteel's the only logical reference for a 2HKO (after Rocks damage if Knocked Off but roosting back for defensive) unless you're talking about a 252/252+ Defensive Zapdos set (which I have not exactly heard buzz about in SV OU)
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 129-153 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 145-171 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
So I go to Sunsteel Strike because your condescending joke comparing it to Rillaboom's power doesn't add up for "Sometimes 2HKOing Zapdos with neutral Banded STAB" so you look less silly if you're just forgetting the type effectiveness but looking at numbers to share. At this point I choose to be as courteous as the posts I'm responding to, so if we're going from legitimate information based argument to meme jabs I'll respond in turn with the above image laden post.
Regarding the past few pages
It's important to actually deliberate on what is OU and give the abstract concept a more-or-less palpable shape so that decisions can be made more easily.
We know for sure what is UU for instance - there is a quantifiable stat that goes up and down and there isn't need for much specific/manual tiering action to keep things in order. OU doesn't have that upper-level breakpoint and there should be something for sure. I am of the opinion that a BST upper limit is an easily applicable example. Zamazenta-H's 660 BST is fine for now only because there are abominations in the tier that can keep it in check, but it even existing in this tier is a clear indicator that the power level is INSANE this generation (with the side-effect of knowing Zama will break the tier a new one once the power level goes down). Sucking at Ubers (or UUbers for that matter) should not weigh much on whether something goes up or down.
Another idea that I've seen done in competitive game balancing to great effect is actually defining a few core Pokémon to create the identity of OU. If some powerful, resilient, and versatile OU staples - Lando-T, Heatran, Garchomp, Weavile, and Toxapex are candidates - get dragged down to UU due to pure power scaling then we know tiering action is needed. Though still abstract, it is MUCH easier to visualize and allows more thought and heart to be directed toward nuances like what defines a healthy metagame with discussions such as the recent hazard shitshow.
It's important to actually deliberate on what is OU and give the abstract concept a more-or-less palpable shape so that decisions can be made more easily.
We know for sure what is UU for instance - there is a quantifiable stat that goes up and down and there isn't need for much specific/manual tiering action to keep things in order. OU doesn't have that upper-level breakpoint and there should be something for sure. I am of the opinion that a BST upper limit is an easily applicable example. Zamazenta-H's 660 BST is fine for now only because there are abominations in the tier that can keep it in check, but it even existing in this tier is a clear indicator that the power level is INSANE this generation (with the side-effect of knowing Zama will break the tier a new one once the power level goes down). Sucking at Ubers (or UUbers for that matter) should not weigh much on whether something goes up or down.
Another idea that I've seen done in competitive game balancing to great effect is actually defining a few core Pokémon to create the identity of OU. If some powerful, resilient, and versatile OU staples - Lando-T, Heatran, Garchomp, Weavile, and Toxapex are candidates - get dragged down to UU due to pure power scaling then we know tiering action is needed. Though still abstract, it is MUCH easier to visualize and allows more thought and heart to be directed toward nuances like what defines a healthy metagame with discussions such as the recent hazard shitshow.
genuinely curious, what do you have against rillaboom? you've declared that it's comparable to chi-yu and solgaleo, and that baxcalibur should be unbanned in part to deal with it. it feels like this is more of a personal dislike at this point, and i'm not quite sure i understand where you're coming from. can you do a bit of a deeper dive into what makes rillaboom so overpowered in your eyes?
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I mean I don't agree with their solgaleo arguments but like, the whole thing about rillaboom is that it tears through resists pretty easily. Its main counters are 4x resists like heatran and iron moth (though the former does hate knock) who can burn it or set up on it after taking a hit, but stuff like zapdos, ghold, gambit etc do not like getting hit by a wood hammer
This is fair, however it's also not the hardest thing in the world to just kill rillaboom back. Even zapdos, who is arguably a fake check, has 2 30% chances to cripple the ape permanently + a 70% chance to kill it instantly on the crackback.
Also, on Solgaleo: I would want it tested in a DLC 2 meta that's as close to stable as we can get so maybe like 6 months post release (provided something doesn't come up and ruin the meta in that time) is a good period to let solgaleo into the tier for a bit, but I also wouldn't care in the least if he wasn't allowed ever.
This is true, though most of the time rilla is probably fucking off LOL, though we could argue about all the possibilities here (roost predict, uturn predict, etc etc) so i don't think it detracts your point.
rillaboom is strong. the other day i hit defensive garchomp with wood hammer. obviously a ohko. but i dealt 70% back to myself. it hates contact effects and to be honest its really slow since theyre mainly adamant. Great mon but theyre always choice band too which is exploitable in itself given how common steel, poison, flying and fire types are. Ive actually seen a lot of people using h-goodra as a check/ counter. niche pick but its no slouch.
The Chi Yu comparison of course was a bit hyperbolic, and as I said before, Baxcalibur not being broken enough to be banned would be very nice to deal with Rillaboom (as well as keep Gliscor and RMoon in check) but that's not necessarily me saying it shouldn't be banned. But I do detest Rillaboom, because:
-I find it very difficult to switch into, between the fact that Wood Hammer hits Pokémon that resist it (most notably in my experience Torn-T and Talonflame) extremely hard, Glide (though relatively low on the list of what issues I have with it) has priority and 2hkos a huge list of Pokémon, and crucially the fact that it has Knock Off, which makes (especially for someone who primarily plays stall) Rillaboom extremely risky to pivot around because losing your Boots is a death sentence in this Spikes based meta.
-If you do manage a relatively safe switch into it there's a chance it will instead choose to simply U-Turn out and make you go through that Sophie's Choice again, putting you at risk for more huge chip, a KO, or lost boots again and again
-Contact abilities, especially Flame Body, are pretty good (maybe even best) counterplay but these tend to be on Pokémon that really don't want to lose their boots due to rocks weakness
-Not only does Grassy Terrain make Rillaboom's Grass moves ludicrously powerful, it also offsets damage you do to it, prolonging the frustration it brings
-This Grassy Terrain also opens the door to a huge list of frustrating Pokémon, sets, and strategies that are generally difficult or frustrating to deal with, such as Heatran with more passive recovery, Ursaluna with offset burn chip (not a huge issue vs many teams but definitely stall,) Stored Power sweeps most notably on Pokémon like Hatterene (who also can be frustrating without stored power due to magic bounce + psyshock) as well as Manaphy, most of these Pokémon also using Grassy Seed for an extra boost and to be more difficult to wear down.
-Grassy Seed on other Pokémon, not just stored power users, (mostly Pokémon that don't care much about their item) is very powerful and a boon to virtually every setup sweeper (people are running it on Ghold now!)
-Not a factor anymore but also was step one of the Cheeseler sweep (people are using Hawlucha for this now but I've yet to encounter this so no strong opinion there) and made Bloodmoon more difficult to deal with by increasing its passive healing
-Grassy Terrain disallows many Pokémon from running or using Earthquake and empowers Steel types such as Kingambit and Gholdengo on Rillaboom's side a great deal
-Overall, the huge power of both Rillaboom and its Grassy Terrain benefactor friends is very stifling to respond to both in the builder and in battle. As much as I hate Rillaboom, I hate what it enables even more, and I hate what it's historically enabled but can't anymore the very most. If it didn't have Knock Off it would be a lot better but being able to not only do all this but steal items away makes it my most hated piece of both this meta and Ubers UU.
What kind of stall team are you building that does not feature Dondozo and Alomomola? And why is it that when I use Pokémon that resist grass such as Torn-T that I get hit with a guaranteed 2HKO?
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SV is so volatile. to the point where getting a KO can be a disadvantage. if you KO something with wood hammer the opponent can bring in moth and fire off a fiery dance for free. grassy terrain being the way it is also benefits the whole field, not just you. we've banned sneasler which was pretty horrendous with grassy seed, but the others you mentioned face problems themselves. manaphy loses to encore. ursaluna is slow as fuck, uncommon and loses to ogerpon, hatterene is decent but struggles with kingambit/ glowking.
A+ rank pokemon but there are definitely ways to deal with it and doesnt enable anything thats toxic or unhealthy anymore
A+ rank pokemon but there are definitely ways to deal with it and doesnt enable anything thats toxic or unhealthy anymore
That's not an SV Volatility thing, you're just describing what a revenge kill is
A lot of these Pokémon have counterplay but again the interactions with stall are what I take the biggest issue with, it's not as though stall teams are running Ogerpon or Hatterene or have an easy time fitting Glowking, Kingambit, Encore, or can rely on outspeeding and outdamaging Ursaluna. And if they do how tf do they deal with Heatran. These are Pokémon that are not uncounterable but essentially kill the archetype I personally enjoy playing most
I've found the root of the issue. You're mad that a stallbreaker exists to punish your double water core. Just run moltres lmao
I have been running Talonflame, which is a relatively solid answer that can still be a bit shaky. Usually boots for flame body proc is a decent trade but can be challenging as healthy Talonflame is required for Tera Dark Kingambit, and of course you don't always get the proc, and if it switches out on your wisp it's often joever. Moltres can be ok but given the fact that it's almost required to take a knock I prefer Talonflame since it has defog
Rillaboom was good last gen where, if we're power scaling here:
Mandibuzz carried the entire tier on its back for at least 2 months
Corviknight became the steel of choice for most teams
Amoongus did Amoongus things
Slightly weaker rillaboom will still be good after ghold leaves
stop malding because the flying types with middling bulk base stats that become fairly bulky with investment are 2hko'd by the strong by default + investment + terrain boost + choice band + STAB rillaboom wood hammer and actually run the bulky moltres who also does way better against gambit. or better yet, play a better teamstyle
It's a 4x resist... all those boosts actually seem like a pretty reasonable amount of power to be frustrated with! And Moltres is actually much worse for this matchup on stall specifically because if you get knocked without flame body activating you are literally fucked because unless you're also running Corv (which has merits but slotting in a second Pokémon for one matchup is incredibly ass on teams designed to defensively respond to every threat) moltres just dies to rocks before finishing its job in the long term
Stall would be a much better playstyle if it weren't for Rillaboom, Ghold, and Waterpon (the latter two synergizing with Rillaboom to a huge degree,) in fact it was a great one during the Gliscor meta.
Oh i see, so an entire playstyle shouldn't be viable because you don't personally like it. Interesting position to take while also making the "you just don't like its presence because you lose to it" argument
There are also plenty of ways to solve the Rillaboom problem on the table outside of a ban, for instance allowing Volcarona in the tier makes Rillaboom a much less free team pick
Instead of malding about something I lose to (unless it's gambit lmao), I actually try to improve my team OR play around it next time. I guess stall is so solved that you can't do that.
Talonflame is literally a dedicated check that succeeds at its job more often than it fails, the improving and adapting has been done, it's just that to add Talonflame and respond to Rillaboom's pressure takes up a valuable team slot that makes matchups vs other threatening breakers all the more problematic. There's also the fact that responding to Rillaboom isn't just adding a Rillaboom counter, it's also having a rock solid Heatran answer, waterpon answer, and Hatterene answer that can cover both stored power and psyshock sets, and doing that all with just 1 Tera. and if they also have another Tera required/preferable Pokémon like Ghold, Valiant, or Glowking there's very little you can realistically do
"Just play around it" is definitely easier said than done with a nuclear breaker that has the option to spam knock off, you're going to have to make a little more effort than just saying that
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