Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[ninth]

Alright, for anybody watching OUPL, Darkrai is legal in one of the slots for the first two weeks. Here's a recap of all of the Darkrai gaming that happened this week.

darkrai gaming!

Lily vs. Savouras: Both players brought Darkrai. Sav sets up webs, but Lily's Samurott-H hits a Copycat and sets up webs too. This has nothing to do with Darkrai, it was just heat and functionally neutralizes the hazard game for all non-grounded mons. Sav brings out Darkrai against Lily's Dragonite (Multiscale broken), which prompts Lily to bring her own Darkrai in. Sav's Darkrai reveals LO with a 38% Dark Pulse, then wins a presumed speed tie to Focus Blast it down. Lily's Great Tusk then comes in, takes a cool 59% from Dark Pulse, and hits Rapid Spin into Headlong Rush to eliminate Darkrai. Lily wins in the end, with the old guard of Tusk/Valiant/Dragonite cleaning house.

MAVERICK SHOOTERS vs. Maxouille: Both players brought Darkrai. Maxouille's Life Orb Darkrai comes in on a Toxic Spike to revenge kill a low-health Cinderace. Mav goes into a paralyzed Toxapex, which takes 37%. Darkrai gets up a Nasty Plot as Pex recovers, then Dark Pulses for 74% as Pex retorts with a 23% Surf. At this point Darkrai is critically low, so Maxouille switches it out and sacks it to a Landorus-T a few turns later. Mav wins with 4 mons left: his Darkrai never comes out.

Taka vs. mimilimi: No Darkrai here, but I have to shout out mimilimi for bringing 4 UUs and doing okay: they got goobed by Zamazenta but I must respect the game.

HYpertonix vs. Adri: Once again, one Darkrai apiece. Both of them lead with Darkrai: Adri switches out into Zamazenta on HYpertonix's Ice Beam. The presence of Zamazenta forces Darkrai out into Amoonguss. Darkrai next emerges on turn 7, when HYpertonix Flip Turns into it against a Zapdos. I'm guessing this Darkrai is choiced, because it Ice Beams a Gholdengo for a cool 21% then gets scared and switches out. Basically the same scenario happens later: HYpertonix gets their Darkrai in against Zapdos, but this time the Ice Beam connects and kills Zapdos. Tusk frightens it out, and from then it doesn't appear until turn 28 when HYpertonix's gets Whirlwinded in. It kills Adri's Ting-Lu before getting sacked to Zamazenta's Close Combat. Ultimately, things come down to Adri's Darkrai against three of HYpertonix's soldiers, including a Dragon Danced-up Tera Flying Iron Thorns. Its Tera Blast misses the kill, and Darkrai finishes the job: it is then immediately Extreme Speeded to death.

Possibly due to everybody inherently understanding the threat of Darkrai and prepping for it, it didn't do a disproportionate amount of work, all things considered. Zamazenta and Tusk are major threats to it - I had assumed GT's lower special defense would be an issue but it just seems like 80 BP Dark Pulse isn't a boatload of damage a lot of the time.

 

[CrispyFries]

Alright, for anybody watching OUPL, Darkrai is legal in one of the slots for the first two weeks. Here's a recap of all of the Darkrai gaming that happened this week.

darkrai gaming!

Lily vs. Savouras: Both players brought Darkrai. Sav sets up webs, but Lily's Samurott-H hits a Copycat and sets up webs too. This has nothing to do with Darkrai, it was just heat and functionally neutralizes the hazard game for all non-grounded mons. Sav brings out Darkrai against Lily's Dragonite (Multiscale broken), which prompts Lily to bring her own Darkrai in. Sav's Darkrai reveals LO with a 38% Dark Pulse, then wins a presumed speed tie to Focus Blast it down. Lily's Great Tusk then comes in, takes a cool 59% from Dark Pulse, and hits Rapid Spin into Headlong Rush to eliminate Darkrai. Lily wins in the end, with the old guard of Tusk/Valiant/Dragonite cleaning house.

MAVERICK SHOOTERS vs. Maxouille: Both players brought Darkrai. Maxouille's Life Orb Darkrai comes in on a Toxic Spike to revenge kill a low-health Cinderace. Mav goes into a paralyzed Toxapex, which takes 37%. Darkrai gets up a Nasty Plot as Pex recovers, then Dark Pulses for 74% as Pex retorts with a 23% Surf. At this point Darkrai is critically low, so Maxouille switches it out and sacks it to a Landorus-T a few turns later. Mav wins with 4 mons left: his Darkrai never comes out.

Taka vs. mimilimi: No Darkrai here, but I have to shout out mimilimi for bringing 4 UUs and doing okay: they got goobed by Zamazenta but I must respect the game.

HYpertonix vs. Adri: Once again, one Darkrai apiece. Both of them lead with Darkrai: Adri switches out into Zamazenta on HYpertonix's Ice Beam. The presence of Zamazenta forces Darkrai out into Amoonguss. Darkrai next emerges on turn 7, when HYpertonix Flip Turns into it against a Zapdos. I'm guessing this Darkrai is choiced, because it Ice Beams a Gholdengo for a cool 21% then gets scared and switches out. Basically the same scenario happens later: HYpertonix gets their Darkrai in against Zapdos, but this time the Ice Beam connects and kills Zapdos. Tusk frightens it out, and from then it doesn't appear until turn 28 when HYpertonix's gets Whirlwinded in. It kills Adri's Ting-Lu before getting sacked to Zamazenta's Close Combat. Ultimately, things come down to Adri's Darkrai against three of HYpertonix's soldiers, including a Dragon Danced-up Tera Flying Iron Thorns. Its Tera Blast misses the kill, and Darkrai finishes the job: it is then immediately Extreme Speeded to death.

Possibly due to everybody inherently understanding the threat of Darkrai and prepping for it, it didn't do a disproportionate amount of work, all things considered. Zamazenta and Tusk are major threats to it - I had assumed GT's lower special defense would be an issue but it just seems like 80 BP Dark Pulse isn't a boatload of damage a lot of the time.

I for one am hyped to see all the incredibly informed posts about darkrai for ou, darkrai is balanced, darkrai has so many checks bro trust me, just run clodsire + amoonguss + assault vest tera water tusk

just uhhh... ignore the fact that it brings absolutely nothing positive to the tier whatsoever and is just "special attacker that hits like a truck and has like 3 switchins" number 4

 

[TCTphantom]

I for one am hyped to see all the incredibly informed posts about darkrai for ou, darkrai is balanced, darkrai has so many checks bro trust me, just run clodsire + amoonguss + assault vest tera water tusk

just uhhh... ignore the fact that it brings absolutely nothing positive to the tier whatsoever and is just "special attacker that hits like a truck and has like 3 switchins" number 4

I’ll take disingenuous takes for 400 Ken.

Honestly, the tour games show Darkrai being strong, but fine. It really wasn’t that egregious even for its power level. Honestly if it was in our current meta, I doubt it would be a pressing concern. Saying it “adds nothing” to the tier honestly feels like it misses the forest for the trees. I feel like it does add things to the tier, namely due to its speed tier. Having a fast special attacker like Darkrai is a boon for speed control, similar to Zamazenta. I see it having a similar presence to Gengar in past gens. Strong? Yes. Broken? No.

My bigger issue is the idea that as an unban, it needs to “add” to the tier. Ubers is a banlist, it exists first as a place for our problematic mons to go. Darkrai should drop if it isn’t broken in DLC2, even if it doesn’t magically make our meta better. It doesn’t make sense to make our banlist larger for arbitrary reasons. If Darkrai is a problem, let it be banned. That’s fine. But if it’s not obviously broken like these games kinda support, it should be given a chance.

 

[ninth]

I for one am hyped to see all the incredibly informed posts about darkrai for ou, darkrai is balanced, darkrai has so many checks bro trust me, just run clodsire + amoonguss + assault vest tera water tusk

just uhhh... ignore the fact that it brings absolutely nothing positive to the tier whatsoever and is just "special attacker that hits like a truck and has like 3 switchins" number 4

Bringing a net positive to the tier is kind of a nebulous concept in general, but particularly in the framing of dropping an Uber to OU I don't think that's the point. Personally I believe it might be better to think of it in the sense of "will this affect the metagame in a negative way?" if we're considering it. If Darkrai can fit into an OU metagame without ruining the vibes in a way that many hellish attackers have, then I think that's grounds enough to at least consider giving it a shot. A lot of mons only contribute massive damage to their tier and weren't banned.

(To be clear, this doesn't have to apply to Darkrai specifically, but any time we're discussing an Uber dropping I think "what positive does it bring to the tier" is looking in the wrong direction.)

 

[Magcargo]

Alright, for anybody watching OUPL, Darkrai is legal in one of the slots for the first two weeks. Here's a recap of all of the Darkrai gaming that happened this week.

darkrai gaming!

Lily vs. Savouras: Both players brought Darkrai. Sav sets up webs, but Lily's Samurott-H hits a Copycat and sets up webs too. This has nothing to do with Darkrai, it was just heat and functionally neutralizes the hazard game for all non-grounded mons. Sav brings out Darkrai against Lily's Dragonite (Multiscale broken), which prompts Lily to bring her own Darkrai in. Sav's Darkrai reveals LO with a 38% Dark Pulse, then wins a presumed speed tie to Focus Blast it down. Lily's Great Tusk then comes in, takes a cool 59% from Dark Pulse, and hits Rapid Spin into Headlong Rush to eliminate Darkrai. Lily wins in the end, with the old guard of Tusk/Valiant/Dragonite cleaning house.

MAVERICK SHOOTERS vs. Maxouille: Both players brought Darkrai. Maxouille's Life Orb Darkrai comes in on a Toxic Spike to revenge kill a low-health Cinderace. Mav goes into a paralyzed Toxapex, which takes 37%. Darkrai gets up a Nasty Plot as Pex recovers, then Dark Pulses for 74% as Pex retorts with a 23% Surf. At this point Darkrai is critically low, so Maxouille switches it out and sacks it to a Landorus-T a few turns later. Mav wins with 4 mons left: his Darkrai never comes out.

Taka vs. mimilimi: No Darkrai here, but I have to shout out mimilimi for bringing 4 UUs and doing okay: they got goobed by Zamazenta but I must respect the game.

HYpertonix vs. Adri: Once again, one Darkrai apiece. Both of them lead with Darkrai: Adri switches out into Zamazenta on HYpertonix's Ice Beam. The presence of Zamazenta forces Darkrai out into Amoonguss. Darkrai next emerges on turn 7, when HYpertonix Flip Turns into it against a Zapdos. I'm guessing this Darkrai is choiced, because it Ice Beams a Gholdengo for a cool 21% then gets scared and switches out. Basically the same scenario happens later: HYpertonix gets their Darkrai in against Zapdos, but this time the Ice Beam connects and kills Zapdos. Tusk frightens it out, and from then it doesn't appear until turn 28 when HYpertonix's gets Whirlwinded in. It kills Adri's Ting-Lu before getting sacked to Zamazenta's Close Combat. Ultimately, things come down to Adri's Darkrai against three of HYpertonix's soldiers, including a Dragon Danced-up Tera Flying Iron Thorns. Its Tera Blast misses the kill, and Darkrai finishes the job: it is then immediately Extreme Speeded to death.

Possibly due to everybody inherently understanding the threat of Darkrai and prepping for it, it didn't do a disproportionate amount of work, all things considered. Zamazenta and Tusk are major threats to it - I had assumed GT's lower special defense would be an issue but it just seems like 80 BP Dark Pulse isn't a boatload of damage a lot of the time.

Watching the replay of the Specs Darkrai in Hyper vs Adri's match was interesting. It seemed to do something similar to Walking Wake, where it theoretically had an extremely narrow pool of switch ins on the opponent's team, but it had to make 50 / 50s on clicking Dark Pulse / Ice Beam. Even Trick wasn't a free click in that game because of Gholdengoat acting as a potential switch-in. Nonetheless, I do worry that Trick could push that set over the edge, as many Dark Pulse switch-ins such as Kingambit and Ting-Lu get completely screwed if Darkrai clicks that move. Then again, it could also be argued Darkrai's ability to provide teams with a fast Trick user could also be a positive thing to the tier, so its all debatable.

In Lily vs Savouras's game, it was hard to draw any conclusions at all. I think Lily lucked out that Savouras's Darkrai wasn't carrying Ice Beam. It was interesting to see Lily use Darkrai as a switch-in to the opponent's Darkrai, but that didn't end up working out unfortunately. Maverick Shooters vs Maxouille was another game that was difficult to draw any conclusions from, espicially as Maverick Shooters didn't even whip out the Darkrai. Taka vs mimilimi was very interesting since they seemed to bring out a LOT of anti-Darkrai tech in this MU like Alolan Muk, on mimilimi's end and multiple Dark resist on Taka's end.

Life Orb and Specs Darkrai were the only sets that were used, but I think HDB Darkrai had a lot of potential in the future considering how most of the games were dominated by Webs. Darkrai does have access to quite a number of utility moves such as Wisp, Haze, etc. which we may see more of as the tourney goes on to cripple answers like Alolan Muk, Ting-Lu, etc.

Overall, pretty hard to draw many conclusions from the current games. Looking forward to seeing what ever wacky sets pop-up in future games though, hopefully more than just the Life Orb / Specs sets we saw in the few games.

 

[Avira]

Life Orb and Specs Darkrai were the only sets that were used, but I think HDB Darkrai had a lot of potential in the future considering how most of the games were dominated by Webs. Darkrai does have access to quite a number of utility moves such as Wisp, Haze, etc. which we may see more of as the tourney goes on to cripple answers like Alolan Muk, Ting-Lu, etc.

Overall, pretty hard to draw many conclusions from the current games. Looking forward to seeing what ever wacky sets pop-up in future games though, hopefully more than just the Life Orb / Specs sets we saw in the few games.

I doubt Darkrai will use Haze as it doesn't have the kit to make use of it. Maybe if it had Recover and better bulk it could be a viable option, but I don't think anyone will use such a tech. Darkrai doesn't even need a special tech to beat Ting-Lu as +2 Focus Blast has a chance to OHKO Ting-Lu.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 437-515 (85 - 100.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

I still believe Focus Blast is mandatory unless you are comfortable with having nothing to hit Kingambit with.

I believe the best sets will be NP, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and either Psyshock/Psychic/Sludge Bomb or Choice Specs with what you specifically want to target.

 

[CrispyFries]

Well I was gonna make a point about Trick + Specs possibly being a little overbearing but it seems the string cheese man has beaten me to it once again.

I think such a small number of games is definitely less than representative of the tier as a whole with Darkrai included, but I feel like it could put some constraint in the teambuilder since it could certainly viably run quite a few sets. Scarf, for example, could easily outrun Booster Energy Iron Valiant or Moth and KO with psychic/psyshock then trick on the switch into something like Gambit or Glowking etc later on once the mons that outspeed it are gone.

Obviously Zamazenta is there as a check but with something like Tera Fairy, for example, which also beats Pult trying to KO with Draco, it could be questionable to deal with, not gonna open that can of worms though.

 

[June Heat]

Darkrai could also just run Psychic to beat/dissuade Zamazenta. Hits Zama, Tusk, Valiant, Amoongus, Pex, and Moth for SE damage. Then there is Tera. Darkrai is definitely under explored to simple right it off as mediocre/broken

 

[Avira]

Darkrai's best Tera Type will probably be Poison for Zamazenta, Rillaboom, and Booster Iron Valiant. With the proper positioning, those mons may not necessarily force Darkrai out and allow it to seriously ravage the opponent's team. It also stops Toxapex from poisoning it with Toxic.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Darkrai could also just run Psychic to beat/dissuade Zamazenta. Hits Zama, Tusk, Valiant, Amoongus, Pex, and Moth for SE damage. Then there is Tera. Darkrai is definitely under explored to simple right it off as mediocre/broken

I think 4MSS is definitely something you have to worry about with Darkrai, because it definitely wants to have more moves than it can pack as shown from those replays.

 

[June Heat]

I think 4MSS is definitely something you have to worry about with Darkrai, because it definitely wants to have more moves than it can pack as shown from those replays.

Dark Pulse/Psychic/Focus Blast/Nasty Plot, what more does it really need? Ice Beam only really hits Dragonite which already threatens Darkrai with ESpeed

 

[Avira]

Even if Offense has the tools to handle Darkrai, Darkrai turns slower-paced teams into roadkill unless they use Assault Vest Muk-Alola, which is not a splashable mon. This mon will just make the meta lean even more towards Offense than it already does.

 

[Shinto7654]

You know, I think looking at literally 3 games that had a Darkrai in it, and thinking thats enough to like, conclude "yes, definitely not gonna be too much if we drop it to OU" Is a wee bit misguided and lacking in any real amount of evidence, but hey

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Wait... Darkrai is tournament legal? Why did no one tell me

 

[KamenOH]

Wait... Darkrai is tournament legal? Why did no one tell me

No one here plays tournaments, and for good reason. They aren't indicative of the actual metagame the vast majority of players will play, as well as just being really unfun for what, bragging rights?

 

[1LDK]

Wait... Darkrai is tournament legal? Why did no one tell me

There's a team tour called OUPL, where teams of players fight against each other, there's SV, SS, SM OU, Bo3 and suspect, where we find darkrai this week and the next, I think week 3 and 4 anhiliape is gonna be legal there

 

[Smashburn]

 

[TheTraininator]

You know, I think looking at literally 3 games that had a Darkrai in it, and thinking thats enough to like, conclude "yes, definitely not gonna be too much if we drop it to OU" Is a wee bit misguided and lacking in any real amount of evidence, but hey

I don’t think anyone is saying we should base any decisions just on these three games though. Darkrai for OU has been a hotly debated topic for a while this gen, and this is the first time we’ve had direct high-level OU Darkrai gameplay to evaluate in any capacity.

 

[somebodyuknow2]

Frankly, if the insane powercreep each generation continues, I don't think we should maintain the tradition of keeping previous Ubers in Ubers until proven otherwise. They're likely as not to be fine in the next gen's OU. I think there's a huge double standard with the burden of proof needed to bring darkrai to OU vs the standard to keep it in OU if it had started the gen in OU.

If darkrai had started the gen in OU it may have even come unscathed to here, dodging bans along the way (kind of like a certain Monarch and his financial advisor). But now that it's labeled an "uber" suddenly you have to prove it's a "positive metagame influence" before considering it. I personally think Darkrai would not be a fun mon to have in the tier. But it could be a balanced mon. A comparable mon would be tapu lele in gen 7, where focus Miss missing just barely keeps it in check. Darkrai happens to be another mon kept in check by Focus Miss missing. I want to cry out to the heavens to reduce the amount of Focus blast in this tier as much as possible, but unfortunately there's no OU tiering policy that says "good mons that rely on 70% moves and cause endless malding should be banned"

 

[Da Pizza Man]

No one here plays tournaments, and for good reason. They aren't indicative of the actual metagame the vast majority of players will play, as well as just being really unfun for what, bragging rights?

The state of tournaments are very indicative of the current state of the metagame, given that is where a large portion of metagame developments happen. Sure most users on here aren't playing tournaments themselves, but acting like big tournaments don't have a major impact on how metagames develop is just madness.

 

[fart goblin]

No one here plays tournaments, and for good reason. They aren't indicative of the actual metagame the vast majority of players will play, as well as just being really unfun for what, bragging rights?

i really, really hope you realize how hard youre telling on yourself with this.

anyway darkrai. im not against a suspect test at all, after seeing the oupl results im a bit less skeptical towards it. i dont personally believe itd be a healthy presence with how easy it is for it to snowball out of control but idk it could be fine in the end and im just fearmongering cuz of its stats. eagerly looking forward to wherever that goes

 

[Baloor]

No one here plays tournaments, and for good reason. They aren't indicative of the actual metagame the vast majority of players will play, as well as just being really unfun for what, bragging rights?

what

 

[DoofV3]

I mean, I guess tournament play doesn't accurately reflect the metagame of low ladder which is where the vast majority of players are? Kind of a self own but I respect the humbleness.

Anyway, post Sneasler meta on low ladder! Pretty fun, ngl! Very tired of seeing the HO sample set of Glimmora/Valiant/Zamazenta/Waterpon/Moth/flex but otherwise I have been having a good time. Hopefully the transition onto the DLC2 meta won't be too rough.

 

[June Heat]

I just hate the idea of adding more roadblocks for the Gholdengo suspect. It’s a conspiracy! Big Ghold is trying to rig the system by adding more demons into OU. “See I’m not so bad compared to those guys. Comparatively I’m a net positive for the tier!” he said with a shit eating grin.

 

[Avira]

Frankly, if the insane powercreep each generation continues, I don't think we should maintain the tradition of keeping previous Ubers in Ubers until proven otherwise. They're likely as not to be fine in the next gen's OU. I think there's a huge double standard with the burden of proof needed to bring darkrai to OU vs the standard to keep it in OU if it had started the gen in OU.

If darkrai had started the gen in OU it may have even come unscathed to here, dodging bans along the way (kind of like a certain Monarch and his financial advisor). But now that it's labeled an "uber" suddenly you have to prove it's a "positive metagame influence" before considering it. I personally think Darkrai would not be a fun mon to have in the tier. But it could be a balanced mon. A comparable mon would be tapu lele in gen 7, where focus Miss missing just barely keeps it in check. Darkrai happens to be another mon kept in check by Focus Miss missing. I want to cry out to the heavens to reduce the amount of Focus blast in this tier as much as possible, but unfortunately there's no OU tiering policy that says "good mons that rely on 70% moves and cause endless malding should be banned"

Tapu Lele in Gen 7 was absolutely broken and overtuned, so using it as a comparison isn't great. I do think after terrain was nerfed in Gen 8 that it was balanced, but in Gen 7, Tapu Lele was literally a disgusting mon that was not balanced in the least. Darkrai literally dumpsters slower-paced teams without Muk-Alola and would not be a good addition to OU unless you want OU to be only HO spam.

I definitely would not consider Gholdengo a net positive for the tier despite it having some positive qualities although I do believe those positive qualities are far outweighed by the negative impact it has on the meta with it being a stupidly effective breaker that can't be dealt with by indirect means. For those scaremongering about Iron Valiant being broken once Gholdengo goes, I'm not convinced as I believe Iron Valiant is a perfectly balanced Pokemon. Just because it has a plethora of different sets doesn't mean that accounting for it in the builder is a tall order. I will love when Gholdengo's stranglehold over the builder is no more.