I am not interested in ppl thoughts as you can see and I play the gen I want, not here to create dramas and stuff so dont talk to me as we are brothers
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I’m so tired of people wanting us to suspect Tera right now. You guys do realize we do not even have time to fit a suspect before DLC??? And then the suspect on Tera in this metagame dictating the fate of that metagame is what you want??? It’s just completely nonsensical. Goes against any form of common sense.
Possible suspects will be discussed plenty more once there’s actual time to work with. We are keeping threads like this open now so more ideas flow and that process will take less time later down the line, but anyone who wants a suspect on Tera less than a month before DLC just doesn’t understand tiering.
Possible suspects will be discussed plenty more once there’s actual time to work with. We are keeping threads like this open now so more ideas flow and that process will take less time later down the line, but anyone who wants a suspect on Tera less than a month before DLC just doesn’t understand tiering.
How can you say you're not here to create drama when the first message was you talking shit saying "they don't want us to play a healthy tier" when it's been explained in detail about the exact situation time and time again? It's clear you haven't actually read any discussion in this thread because otherwise you wouldn't be arguing like this
My man we know DLC's will not change anything about how Tera will stay crack boosted and make the games less skill dependant, for example take a look to most of GXE during olt cycles
First off, we aren’t basing the biggest decision in the history of tiering off of user Herv saying “we all know” — we don’t. We have no confirmation on a lot of things.
Second off, if “DLC’s will not change anything”, then Tera is staying. The community voted for it to stay and these threads have had a majority not wanting it outright banned. You’re entitled to feel how you do, but you can’t imply everyone feels this way or that there’s some systematic failings just because the community isn’t entirely on the same page as you.
If I were to just say “oh nothing will change, let’s suspect Tera now and keep the result after DLC” that would be the single worst tiering decision ever made. The suspect wouldn’t end until after DLC release, skewing the qualifying period to begin with, and the result would not be representative of the current metagame. It is a simple concept.
Par contre commence par bien parler parce que je te jure que je vais pas rester patient avec tes attaques personnelles à la con
Ok understood
The level of irony here is damning. You opened this with a personal attack and then did so to another user while nobody attacked you, but rather your flawed ideas and hostile approach.
I told you to get your head out of your ass because your own point proved you wrong and you haven’t actually read or thought it through enough to realize it.
Pivoting to a different language to mask your nonsensical narrative is just the cherry on top. Please stop posting unless you have something of substance to add.
Couldn't you have run both tera and king gambit suspect at the same time?
Once DLC + more mons drop, it'll just be the same convo/call for some kind of action again. There will be bans, and then there will be even less time/window for Tera Suspect by itself as mentioned before. So you might need to run Tera alongside suspected mons at some point, no?
No, you can only run one suspect at the same time.
Beyond the sheer impossibility of this logistically, it also is never proper to have overlapping variables tested at the same time. Running two suspects at once would not be approved by Smogon even if we wanted to, but it’s also improper and not something ever worth considering.
The fact that these threads are open and we are collecting data both from them, the last survey, and likely future surveys means that the process will be more ready than ever. When we find a window AND if — and only if — there is enough support, I don’t see why it wouldn’t get a stand-alone test. Right now the barriers are that we aren’t positive the support is there and we don’t have a window of time. If the support is there, we will find a way for it to happen.
Imagine using context and not cutting out fractions of complete thoughts.
Not sure if this is the place to mention this, but I honestly think rulings should be permanent. So a No Ban on Tera means it is never suspected again.
And if people don't like it? Do what I do, and stop playing. Complaining about something being broken doesn't make it broken.
Tera is fundamental to OU, for better and for worse. It makes the most inherently broken mons in the tier more broken, and it minimizes counterplay.
But that isn't the fault of a key mechanic, because pseudo-legendaries and paradox pokemon are innately overstatted and will almost always outclass any and all older pokemon.
Unless they are blatantly overstatted and pushed beyond balanced reason, like Kingambit and Dragapult.
I'm not saying any of the above pokemon are "broken" persay, but tera is fascinating and interesting in tiers other than OU.
Maybe the problem isn't tera. Maybe the problem is OU.
Just saying.
To conclude, stop re-testing and re-re-re-opening discussion around mechanics if you aren't actually aiming to do anything about them.
Once something is banned, ban it for the entire generation. Once something is suspected and receives a no ban, it's fair game and don't waste time circle throwing around the same topics.
And if people don't like it? Do what I do, and stop playing. Complaining about something being broken doesn't make it broken.
Tera is fundamental to OU, for better and for worse. It makes the most inherently broken mons in the tier more broken, and it minimizes counterplay.
But that isn't the fault of a key mechanic, because pseudo-legendaries and paradox pokemon are innately overstatted and will almost always outclass any and all older pokemon.
Unless they are blatantly overstatted and pushed beyond balanced reason, like Kingambit and Dragapult.
I'm not saying any of the above pokemon are "broken" persay, but tera is fascinating and interesting in tiers other than OU.
Maybe the problem isn't tera. Maybe the problem is OU.
Just saying.
To conclude, stop re-testing and re-re-re-opening discussion around mechanics if you aren't actually aiming to do anything about them.
Once something is banned, ban it for the entire generation. Once something is suspected and receives a no ban, it's fair game and don't waste time circle throwing around the same topics.
What a nonsense statement. Paradox and pseudo legendary and the like are arbitrary classifications.that have no bearing on a mon's success or whether they'll be broken, or even do well.
They aren't overstatted. Gambit is pushed to the extreme it is because tera enables it to win match ups it shouldn't be.
Keeping the discussion open is helpful to continually gauge community opinions over time. There is zero harm in this thread.
This is, bluntly, quite asinine. Metagames change all the time, to the point where once broken elements are no longer broken, or things once viewed not broken may develop into broken.
Specially since the DLC will introduce new elements to consider for Terastalization, as well as much needed defensive staples like Clefable or Gliscor. The prudent thing to do is to see what said rainbow/aurora/typeless/potato omelette tera might be, as well as if defense becomes more stable or less stable after the additions and prudent quickbans (Please remember to Quickban Melmetal. Tera Steel was just unwallable in NatDex, and will be worse in OU since defense is weaker, Z-Moves can't OHKO it and Cresselia is Viable in OU so there it can be surprise Semi-room cores).
I NEVER mentioned Shedinja, I only mentioned Roaring Moon as an example of overreaction, because Roaring Moon doesn't really seem to benefit from NatDex due to not being that good of a Z-Move user compared to Garchomp or Dragapult, nor having Knock off and Pursuit like other dark types. At least Ursaluna has Return and Trick Room + Teleport pokémon to understand why it would be a problem.
The comment I made to was towards the one who banned shedinja. Maybe I'm understimating stuff but I can't really discard the option of overreaction or that at the very least Shedinja only got banned due to being a massive nuisanse, just like how people in VGC complain so much about Smeargle despite NEVER winning a VGC worlds.
Those kinds of critics are necessary for the health of Smogon, otherwise they will forget why Smogon exists to begin with; that happened to Riot Games, it obviously happened with Blizzard, and I don't want this fan-made proyect made for pokémon fans to fall into the claws of corporative thinking. We'd already seen this on gen 8 where we put a generic "Don't use (Insert bad pokémon's name)" instead of having meme texts of laughs at the pokémon due to how useless it was in battle; I understand why it happened (Ever-expanding dex + volatile metas = no time to explain bad pokémons), but it's a lost nonetheless.
This Is why I insist this is the single most important suspect test Smogon has ever done, because it'll tell us what we truly want showdown to be going forwards, because you can't eat your cake and take it too. If we say we ban tera, we'll betray the more casual audience who is still important despite what you would think otherwise, and if we don't ban tera we might end up betraying the competitive setting Smogon aspires to have, and restrictions might be either too little or too much.
Who wants to tell them? Anybody besides me.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Eelstartega, I think what AM is getting at is that the casual audience is largely unaffected by anything that Smogon does. In the grand scheme of Pokemon fandom, most Pokemon players likely don't even know about Smogon's existence or hardly interact with it in any way. The vast majority of Pokemon players just play the games on cartridge and don't engage with the competitive side at all. Regardless of whatever Smogon does concerning Tera, Pokemon is still one of the largest media franchises on the planet and the casual audience (which again, is the overwhelming majority of players) will be unaware that anything happened. Even those casual players that know about Smogon and the decision about Tera probably won't be impacted in any way unless they also play on Showdown, but at that point, they're probably crossing over from being true casual players anyway.
Sorry AM if that's not what you were getting at though; I never want to put words in someone else's mouth.
Again, why are you speculating and making takes about a metagames you apparently don't even play? You don't know how Roaring Moon was in the tier. It wasn't an overreaction.
It got banned for being an uncompetitive piece of shit.
Imma be completely honest here and say something others might have in their mind as well but….what is the point of this discussion thread?
DLC1 is less than a month away, and the council can’t take action simply cause there is not enough time to create a suspect test for Tera, thus this thread has become an echo chamber that doesn’t really go anywhere and hasn’t gone anywhere.
The Teal Mask meta will be different from Home and the answer to whether Tera is broken or not will be clearer. Why not lock this thread until DLC1 when a Tera suspect is back on the table? It has run its course.
As a side note, I believe suspecting Gambit over Tera was the wrong play. Tera is the more controversial component of SV OU and many pro-ban players would agree that Tera is what pushed it over the edge.
DLC1 is less than a month away, and the council can’t take action simply cause there is not enough time to create a suspect test for Tera, thus this thread has become an echo chamber that doesn’t really go anywhere and hasn’t gone anywhere.
The Teal Mask meta will be different from Home and the answer to whether Tera is broken or not will be clearer. Why not lock this thread until DLC1 when a Tera suspect is back on the table? It has run its course.
As a side note, I believe suspecting Gambit over Tera was the wrong play. Tera is the more controversial component of SV OU and many pro-ban players would agree that Tera is what pushed it over the edge.
Disagree bro. If Tera was banned, then it's likely it would been unbanned in the DLC due to it not being a clear-cut case like DMax. Considering Tera is a far more important topic than a random mon like Chien-Pao, it's very likely we would have had another suspect instead of QB from the council. If tera doesn't get banned again, then we'd likely need to do another Tera test anyways in one of the later DLCs since ppl will still complain. Either way, we'd need to do multiple suspects.
Best time to test Tera is at the start of DLC 2 meta. It will have the highest chance of getting banned then which is what anti-tera players want and it will be done in a new metagame which would make a ban be more of a clean slate compared to banning / testing it rn.
Hey Finch, I respect and agree with the decision to not touch Tera until the DLC comes, but I'm hoping you can clarify this point; we saw in the tiering surgery that tiering action of some kind (not necessarily full ban) against terastalization is something that over 60% of the the playerbase, both qualified and not, is interested in. Very few voices in this thread seem to be against any and all restrictions, and while the "no action" camp makes up much more of the policy review thread than this one, there are still voices in that thread that are pretty against Tera staying as is, or in the tier as a whole. With the numbers and sentiment we've seen, I'm curious as to what sort of sentiment or mesurable interest in tiering action the council is looking for in terms of justification for a Tera suspect, as well as if restrictions that don't go as far as full ban such as Tera Preview or Tera Blast ban are something the council is genuinely considering, since there seems to be more skepticism about preview coming from the (much less active) PR thread than here
The plan is to include Tera in another survey in the post-DLC metagame and then gauge the sentiment; this survey was purposefully worded vaguely and while the majority may favor some action in it, a lot of people would prefer no outright ban and then a lot of outright ban people do not want any half measures and so on. A future survey getting more specific once we know the DLC metagame can help us sort options, too, if deemed appropriate.
The PR thread is admittedly the more important of the two threads and it heavily favors not acting with a lot of people even outright opposing any half-measures like preview (and neither thread has a majority for outright ban). I think the last survey is enough to keep these threads open and survey further, but it was vague and the threads certainly have not helped action's case at all.
I do not think there is a concrete answer, but we need to delve deeper into the specifics of what people want and how many of them proportionately want that, so I would keep an eventual lookout for that once things settle!
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I've noticed this trend too in the PR thread with many of the more accomplished players not being in favor of action against Tera. I'm just quickly highlighting this in hope that it throws some cold water on the "Pro-Tera players are more casual" sentiment. I'm not saying that the opposite is true either, since if you look through the PR thread, you'll see other notable players and builders, like Will of Fire, who I believe has historically been a fairly influential builder (unless I'm mixing them up with someone else), vehemently argue against Tera. What I think it boils down to is that many of the strongest/most aggressively presented opinions on both sides tend to come from less experienced/"more casual" players, so hopefully people understand that going forward and don't allow some of the loudest voices in the room to make them think that the general consensus, particularly amongst the more informed playerbase that is far more likely to actually participate in a potential suspect test, is leaning one way or the other.
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I think that there is not much correlation between certain skill levels and certain stances on Tera given what we have seen in both threads.
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