Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Finchinator]

Do you honestly think there ever won't be "something's releasing soon" to worry about?

Great question: yes!

I think we need to ready our process for the rapid release schedule and that is what we are doing. Let me outline it through the rest of my answer.

You listed ~2 months at minimum to get a suspect done(and yes, that's a reasonable timeline, mechanics suspects are a big deal). If you assume at least 1 month after any release for the meta to settle/adapt before the suspect process starts, then literally any suspect will end less than a month away from the meta changing.

I think we are doing a lot of the legwork that is not metagame specific in threads like these now so we can apply the process come then and it will only need 3-4 weeks rather than multiple months. Things like how to format a suspect on Tera can be outlined through these threads and surveys, which are and will continue to happen. Things like timeline will be dictated by circumstance sadly, but that timeline can take up less time by handling the heavy preemptive lifting now and continuously rather than lumping it together until later. Having these dialogues can set us up for better opportunities down the road.

I totally get this concern and I think it is fair; we have new releases and timelines, so naturally we are catering our response to these trends. We are adapting an older process meant for longer periods, so it has some things we are still working out, but in discussing things with the community, being transparent, and having a receptive mindset to feedback, so far I like that we are able to focus on the right things and expedite at the right times.

I do not know if a suspect is coming after DLC1, DLC2 or even at all, but I am confident that with more time, we will be more prepared for it and anything else that comes regardless of time constraints. And I think it is important we continue to adapt our process with the hands we are dealt every generation and release.

Look, I don't play much(I work 50 hours a week, I cannot spare the brain to get good). But this meta isn't fun. And that seems like a very common opinion. Something needs to change, and Tera's the elephant in the room. People are going to keep calling for a retest until one happens. Which, per your timeline, is probably middle of February before we even seriously discuss it(IF they release in Jan AND the meta settles fast, neither of which is guaranteed). That's going to suck for you, and it's going to suck for everyone trying to play this meta, and it's going to drain the fun out of these forums. And it's entirely possible by that point they've announced whatever the next big release is for late April or early May.

I get it. It is hard to stay up-to-date. I work full time and have to take care of multiple people IRL at times, but I play a lot and think I am up-to-date enough to run the tier. And I think the metagame was viewed very favorably before DLC and is now approaching favorable status as well. There was a blip right after the DLC release which was always going to happen and we are not yet at our peak, but all signs and data point to improvement with time.

I think you are misconstruing my timeline as it was fit specifically for right now -- i.e: why it is logistically impossible to have a tera suspect before DLC in a month. That timeline is not all firm for later as a lot of the legwork is being done now and will be kept in mind for later, making it more abbreviated. It is more likely to take up a full month or 3-4 weeks, not 2+ months later on.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Whatever we do, a large group will be upset...

the pr solution to things like this is to intentionally work out a terrible solution to make everyone upset, then immediately walk back your changes and push the original thing you wanted to change. people will be desperate enough to take anything over the mess you created, so instead of being upset at the new thing, they'll just be grateful they have an alternative at all. i call it the windows 8 tactic. (alternative names: "new coke gambit", "sonic movie trailer strategy", "cyberpunk ploy", "that shit they tried to pull with mega gengar the one time")

 

[JunkoAJ]

I think less weight should be put on mechanics, act on them quicker but also be willing to drop them and retest. I know they affect the metagame much differently than pokemon, but I think with the first year of ou being just fractured between 4 or more metas, we should be more flexible me thinks

I think the issue is that people are going to be much more resistant to re-testing if something gets actioned as opposed to keeping it around for x period of time.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

the pr solution to things like this is to intentionally work out a terrible solution to make everyone upset, then immediately walk back your changes and push the original thing you wanted to change. people will be desperate enough to take anything over the mess you created, so instead of being upset at the new thing, they'll just be grateful they have an alternative at all. i call it the windows 8 tactic. (alternative names: "new coke gambit", "sonic movie trailer strategy", "cyberpunk ploy", "that shit they tried to pull with mega gengar the one time")

This sounds familiar... oh i remember

Gamefreak: Dexit, everyone hates SwSh and wants to burn the company

Some time later

Gamefreak: DLC, we bring back some of the mons... it fucking works and we make more money off the player's copium that DLC solves the previous dexit issue.

S/V: lets do exactly fucking that again with minor improvements but no one complains this time because everyone already knows what to expect from SwSh and it can't get much worse! Series rebooted and everyone accepts the new pattern of less pokemon - > spend $60 for DLC to reintroduce them!

 

[Eelstartega]

Breaking news: A Nineteenth tera type has been discovered.

... This has to be a f****** joke.
This new rainbow/aurora/typeless tera basically means no decision will be worth taking until we actually know what it actually is. Honestly it seems like a bigger argument against tera blast if it's NOT what I suspect it is. We can be kinda glad we did not made a suspect test on the regular tera but instead on "the waste of time" because it's clear this has to be threated separatedly from the other 18 types.

My personal theory is that it makes you neutral to all types, a terablast neutral to all types and most importantly, all your moves STAB.
Now, How good it would be? Honestly, it would be kinda bad. Resistances and immunities are a big reason why anything in competitive game works and is worth the weaknesses attached to; that's why Ryu is always mid tier, because he lacks notable strenghts to abuse over its opponent, or why using non-STAB return has always been considered a showcase of terrible movepool, even back in gen 2.
Specialization is a prize worth pursuing in Pokémon and the new Tera type seems to be going against; not to mention regular offensive Tera is already used mostly as a 3rd STAB option, like tera ground Baxcalibur, Tera Ice Sandy shocks, tera fighting Kingambit/gholdengo or tera Normal Dragonite, so giving all STAB seems kinda worthless outside maybe Dragonite, and even then ghost immunity seems quite useful considering Gholdengo and Dragapult. But we don't know.

Slight edit for clarity.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

My personal theory is that it makes you neutral to all types, a terablast neutral to all types and most importantly, all your moves STAB.
Now, How good it would be? Honestly, it would be kinda bad.

i dunno, i think it might be pretty strong. it probably wouldn't be used on anything defensively except for a few incredibly hard-to-break things (and—pray it doesn't return—shedinja), but making everything stab is a huge offensive buff that a lot of offense-geared mons would appreciate over a lack of resistances. for example, specs valiant would really like the option to get stab on both its coverage moves at the same time. in other words, just one more piece of fuckery to tip the scales even more towards offense

 

[KamenOH]

(and—pray it doesn't return—shedinja)

God imagine HDB/Safety Goggles on that thing. Too bad it dies to your average NU mon Tyranitar turn -1.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

God imagine HDB/Safety Goggles on that thing. Too bad it dies to your average NU mon Tyranitar turn -1.

Apparently that ain't enough it seems.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 542969

Apparently that ain't enough it seems.

when you lie on the application and get the job anyway

 

[Eelstartega]

View attachment 542969

Apparently that ain't enough it seems.

Tbf, NatDex has been kinda prone to overreaction recently, and with that I mean their quickbans. While in regular OU Roaring moon is a meh B+ creature (Blame Kingambit for that), in NatDex it got quickbanned without a chance of being properly tested out, specially considering Ghostium-Z Dragapult is allowed (Was banned in gen 8 NatDex btw) and the low Synergy Roaring moon has with Z-moves compared to other Dragons.

 

[Moyashi]

Tbf, NatDex has been kinda prone to overreaction recently, and with that I mean their quickbans. While in regular OU Roaring moon is a meh B+ creature (Blame Kingambit for that), in NatDex it got quickbanned without a chance of being properly tested out, specially considering Ghostium-Z Dragapult is allowed (Was banned in gen 8 NatDex btw) and the low Synergy Roaring moon has with Z-moves compared to other Dragons.

Love people who don't play formats inserting takes about them.

NatDex isn't prone to ovvereaction. It has a hugely volatile power level. Moon had far fewer checks in natdex and was a major contributer to the bs teta injected into the tier.

 

[Bakugames]

nat dex is petmod levels of different metagames imo, comparisons to it need to be done with caution

 

[Magcargo]

I don't think looking at natdex as a frame of reference for future metagames is entirely unwarranted. Over time, as more Pokemon are re-added in the DLCs & Pokemon possibly regain lost tools, our metagame will inch closer and closer to natdex in terms of power. That's generally how I thought it went in SS.

I think this generation is an interesting case though since a lot of returning Pokemon lost key tools that they would have access to in NatDex, so the metas will likely diverge to a greater degree than they did last gen. Nonetheless, it can still be a good preview to see how certain returning Pokemon will fit into the metagame & whether they will be problematic.

 

[Karxrida]

NatDex has access to Megas, Z-Moves, and deleted moves, with the first two clearly not intended to interact with Tera while also greatly increasing the power level. I don't need to know the format to understand that those factors greatly influence the meta to a ludicrous degree such that any comparison to SV OU is inherently flawed.

 

[G-Luke]

Tbf, NatDex has been kinda prone to overreaction recently, and with that I mean their quickbans. While in regular OU Roaring moon is a meh B+ creature (Blame Kingambit for that), in NatDex it got quickbanned without a chance of being properly tested out, specially considering Ghostium-Z Dragapult is allowed (Was banned in gen 8 NatDex btw) and the low Synergy Roaring moon has with Z-moves compared to other Dragons.

It got banned from Ubers. Not even from just Nat Dex. It was banned from Nat Dex Ubers dawg. If you don't know what you're waffling about just leave it alone.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It got banned from Ubers. Not even from just Nat Dex. It was banned from Nat Dex Ubers dawg. If you don't know what you're waffling about just leave it alone.

roaring moon did? good lord, what makes moon so much more broken in natdex that it had to be banned twice?

 

[Nish the Great]

roaring moon did? good lord, what makes moon so much more broken in natdex that it had to be banned twice?

They’re referring to shedinja, which is in AG, which for some reason you attributed to being the Natdex OU Council’s fault

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

They’re referring to shedinja, which is in AG, which for some reason you attributed to being the Natdex OU Council’s fault

oh, for some reason i thought the discussion was still about roaring moon. also, i think you got me confused with the person who was actually talking about it. i perfectly understand the reason for banning shedinja in a format where it can pick and choose what autoloses to it because that's the stupidest shit anyone has ever conceived of and even ag would probably be better off without it

 

[Empress Mobile]

I don't know why we are making comparisons to Nat Dex in this thread. It seems to be pretty common here. It's a pet mod and has no more relevance here than something like STABMons or AAA.

 

[yone]

Two threads, thousands messages and still no change or tiering action towards this mecanic, let's just give up guys they don't want us to play a healthy tier

 

[JunkoAJ]

Two threads, thousands messages and still no change or tiering action towards this mecanic, let's just give up guys they don't want us to play a healthy tier

Already been addressed - the Kingambit suspect was more important and obviously two suspects at the same time is silly. As for between now and then (not that I agree) having a mechanic suspected before a metagame drops a thousand new threats is incredibly chaotic and Tera will need to be retested anyway.

Anyone who thinks suspecting Tera right before DLC in a dying metagame is the optimal play lacks a grasp on tiering. This is not an open discussion; this is a forgone conclusion backed by all prevailing tiering conventions and common sense.

No, you are wrong. A test on Tera in one metagame is different than a test on Tera in a different metagame. Context absolutely matters. The mechanic is used on the Pokemon that exist within the tier. The Pokemon differing and being less stable can make a substantial difference.

This comment is just baffling. I implore you to take a step back and reassess your conclusion.

This is why we voted to keep it banned, but also you cannot just blankly assume nothing makes things better or worse without actually playing it through in some cases. Tera is not something we can assume will be worse or better in the format without playing it out. And if I were to just based tiering off of blind assumptions, I would not be doing my job properly.

 

[yone]

I'm not talking about a suspect that will last 3 weeks and where ppl will take 10 days to vote do not ban, i'm talking about an outright ban so we can have some straights 6v6 with no tricks or where kingambit can suddenly become a fairy or a bird

 

[Finchinator]

Two threads, thousands messages and still no change or tiering action towards this mecanic, let's just give up guys they don't want us to play a healthy tier

Get your head out of your ass; the only way you would say something like this is if it’s up there and not actually reading the “two threads, thousands messages” you’re referring to.

All generation whenever anything in the slightest doesn’t go exactly to your liking, you take public shots at the credibility of people involved with tiering without any actual basis. You want to disagree with how things have been handled? Be my guest, but claiming we don’t want a healthy tier or implying that we are laissez-faire with regulations is simply incorrect.

It would be incredibly irresponsible to have a suspect in a metagame on the verge of dying out due to DLC and we have repeatedly stated we are open to future action if and when appropriate. Banning Tera hasn’t had enough support yet and if one day it does, we will gladly move into a suspect period. And we will keep these threads open and surveys coming for that day if it is possible to reach.

 

[yone]

All generation whenever anything in the slightest doesn’t go exactly to your liking, you take public shots at the credibility of people involved with tiering without any actual basis.

?
Never

irresponsible to have a suspect in a metagame on the verge of dying out due to DLC

Lol good luck then.

 

[JunkoAJ]

I'm not talking about a suspect that will last 3 weeks and where ppl will take 10 days to vote do not ban, i'm talking about an outright ban so we can have some straights 6v6 with no tricks or where kingambit can suddenly become a fairy or a bird

You're playing the wrong game then lmfao because even if/when a suspect happens, I don't think anyone believes an outright ban will happen, so see you in Generation X man